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On February 09 2012 04:12 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 03:59 tdt wrote:
Can't belive terran whine when it's 3 protoss and 3 terran left. I gess they are used to all RO8 being Terran with one token zerg or protoss. Sorry guys blanace is 33/33/33% It isn't based on raw numbers of who is left, it is based on the content of the games played. For instance: I have no issues at all with the metropolis game. Jjakji scouts the quick third, and decides to go for a 2 base ghost all-in to try to kill the protoss before too much splash is on the field. Protoss should have won that game. However, the game on cloud kingdom just seemed ridiculous. Parting forgets charge, a key component to the strategy he is trying to execute. He has his third denied twice - he is forced to cancel each time right after the nexus is over half built. Jjakji has 2-1 or 3-1 (I'll have to go back and look, either way he was ahead of protoss in upgrade) and is putting up a fourth when protoss is finally establishing his third. Parting lets his army get cornered and killed for basically nothing, it is a completely one-sided stomping and jjakji is up by a huge amount of supply... and he can not kill the protoss no matter what he does. Protoss just warps in zealots and cannons and storms all over the equally or better upgraded terran army until he gets his deathball and just one-shots planetaries and kills everything. Jjakji tries, but can't drop because Parting smartly uses cannons and templar to defend his bases. The game on Antiga was under similar circumstances, Jjakji up by a large amount of supply, scans the protoss third while it is being built and sees colossus and templar, and even though he has a much larger army he just freezes because he cannot attack into it. He could risk it and hope storm wasn't done building, but then it is just blind luck if he wins. Later, parting donates his army again, and again he can not be killed. That Jjakji landed his vikings made sense, after all he just CRUSHED through a protoss army supply efficiently, but no - Parting just warped in zealots and spammed storms everywhere and terran could not kill him. The game on Daybreak doesn't even make sense to me, it defies all RTS logic. You cannot rely on statistics and win-rates to make any claim about balance. In the Cloud Kingdom and Antiga games, parting made enormous mistakes, mistakes that if Jjakji had made, would've ended the game instantly.
Terran players should try experimenting with using more than just marine/marauder/medivac as an entire PvT strat. I hear ravens wreak zealots. Mass ghost wrecked creatorprime. They have the tools late but don't use them.
Check this game out and tell me different.
http://www.youtube.com/user/IGNProLeague#p/c/CD1D2C0D2DB5F496/7/os0ggYkHVvM
And yes you can rely on stats as it's the only objective measure. we can thoery craft all day back and forth, it's just noise, but at the end of the day stats tell the story.
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France12758 Posts
On February 09 2012 04:11 SwizzY wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 03:45 CaptainCrush wrote:On February 09 2012 03:08 songohan wrote:
ahh it's good to see the people with real skill advance. You mean Jjakji, the guy that was #3 on the top 5 korean list just a few days ago, has no skill? Jjakji, the guy that went deep into the previous code S tournament? MC is a world class player but I honestly think a few other tossers are still in code S because of recent buffs. Flame me all you want but its about time toss started using its potential, it has been an incredibly abusive race from the start, there just werent enough people taking advantage of it. Hopefully they will have some of their recent/ unecessary buffs taken back so this game can continue like its supposed to! Like it's supposed to? Stop throwing around absolutes unless you are a Korean, at minimum Code B, logging 25+ games a day. Anything lower and you better get a flame-retardant suit instead of that measly umbrella of "flame me all you want." Think about it though. Are either Jjakji or GanZi known for their amazing TvP? *Insert resounding* NO. Jjakji is pretty decent but GanZi is downright terrible. They got handled by one TvP GOD in MC and another known for OUTSTANDING TvP against Terrans like Clide, NaDa, TOP, and now Jjakji. Don't throw out balance whine with such baseless accusations. On note...... MC!!!! :D))))) -}-<
Lol ?
Jjakji is one of the best TvPers we have.
Jjakji, MKP, Polt. These three are presumably the best TvP there are right now
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Nice to see Terran has to micro the hell out of a weakass army while Protoss still steamrolls anyway.
Both T and P fast expand, but somehow Terran 2-base has to make 4 bunkers and pull scvs just to survive a Protoss 2-base. Both T and P fast expand, then P gets a free 3rd base and still makes a killer attack that almost kills T in two games.
Wow.
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Holy shit those Parting and Jjakji games were so good, I love PvT so much, but glad we got 2 Protoss through!
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I just realized that all woongjin terrans are gone! And in pretty bad way, resembling the old days. And I mean it's not shocking that Supernova and Ganzi got beaten, but hell I still can't believe Gumiho beat Mvp T_T
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Fuck Yes FOR THE AIUR!!!
MC and Parting are wayyy too good!! their PvP are awesome and Partingmust have one of the best PvTs in the world right now!
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On February 09 2012 04:30 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 04:12 Horseballs wrote:On February 09 2012 03:59 tdt wrote:
Can't belive terran whine when it's 3 protoss and 3 terran left. I gess they are used to all RO8 being Terran with one token zerg or protoss. Sorry guys blanace is 33/33/33% It isn't based on raw numbers of who is left, it is based on the content of the games played. For instance: I have no issues at all with the metropolis game. Jjakji scouts the quick third, and decides to go for a 2 base ghost all-in to try to kill the protoss before too much splash is on the field. Protoss should have won that game. However, the game on cloud kingdom just seemed ridiculous. Parting forgets charge, a key component to the strategy he is trying to execute. He has his third denied twice - he is forced to cancel each time right after the nexus is over half built. Jjakji has 2-1 or 3-1 (I'll have to go back and look, either way he was ahead of protoss in upgrade) and is putting up a fourth when protoss is finally establishing his third. Parting lets his army get cornered and killed for basically nothing, it is a completely one-sided stomping and jjakji is up by a huge amount of supply... and he can not kill the protoss no matter what he does. Protoss just warps in zealots and cannons and storms all over the equally or better upgraded terran army until he gets his deathball and just one-shots planetaries and kills everything. Jjakji tries, but can't drop because Parting smartly uses cannons and templar to defend his bases. The game on Antiga was under similar circumstances, Jjakji up by a large amount of supply, scans the protoss third while it is being built and sees colossus and templar, and even though he has a much larger army he just freezes because he cannot attack into it. He could risk it and hope storm wasn't done building, but then it is just blind luck if he wins. Later, parting donates his army again, and again he can not be killed. That Jjakji landed his vikings made sense, after all he just CRUSHED through a protoss army supply efficiently, but no - Parting just warped in zealots and spammed storms everywhere and terran could not kill him. The game on Daybreak doesn't even make sense to me, it defies all RTS logic. You cannot rely on statistics and win-rates to make any claim about balance. In the Cloud Kingdom and Antiga games, parting made enormous mistakes, mistakes that if Jjakji had made, would've ended the game instantly. Terran players should try experimenting with using more than just marine/marauder/medivac as an entire PvT strat. I hear ravens wreak zealots. Mass ghost wrecked creatorprime. They have the tools late but don't use them. Check this game out and tell me different. http://www.youtube.com/user/IGNProLeague#p/c/CD1D2C0D2DB5F496/7/os0ggYkHVvMAnd yes you can rely on stats as it's the only objective measure. we can thoery craft all day back and forth, it's just noise, but at the end of the day stats tell the story.
Ravens wreck Zealots ? With what ? Seeker Missle ? With Charge on the Zealots the Seeker will more harm to you then to the Toss.
The Problem with Raven and not just in TvP is that they have zero sinergy with Bio and if you don't play Mech or Air ( which you can't in TvP) they can't keep up with your and can be picked off easily. Which is why we rarely see Ravens right now . In TvT they are used with Mech and in TvZ they also work pretty well with Mech , with Bio /Tanks not so much though .
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I wonder what would of been the out come of MC vs Jjakji, I feel like MC would of lost, but who knows, poor GanZi he's usually pretty good but got owned today.
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On February 09 2012 04:31 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 04:11 SwizzY wrote:On February 09 2012 03:45 CaptainCrush wrote:On February 09 2012 03:08 songohan wrote:
ahh it's good to see the people with real skill advance. You mean Jjakji, the guy that was #3 on the top 5 korean list just a few days ago, has no skill? Jjakji, the guy that went deep into the previous code S tournament? MC is a world class player but I honestly think a few other tossers are still in code S because of recent buffs. Flame me all you want but its about time toss started using its potential, it has been an incredibly abusive race from the start, there just werent enough people taking advantage of it. Hopefully they will have some of their recent/ unecessary buffs taken back so this game can continue like its supposed to! Like it's supposed to? Stop throwing around absolutes unless you are a Korean, at minimum Code B, logging 25+ games a day. Anything lower and you better get a flame-retardant suit instead of that measly umbrella of "flame me all you want." Think about it though. Are either Jjakji or GanZi known for their amazing TvP? *Insert resounding* NO. Jjakji is pretty decent but GanZi is downright terrible. They got handled by one TvP GOD in MC and another known for OUTSTANDING TvP against Terrans like Clide, NaDa, TOP, and now Jjakji. Don't throw out balance whine with such baseless accusations. On note...... MC!!!! :D))))) -}-< Lol ? Jjakji is one of the best TvPers we have. Jjakji, MKP, Polt. These three are presumably the best TvP there are right now
Polt's TvP hasn't looked good vs. strong Ps in a long time. The top three are probably Jjakji, MKP (though he hasn't shown TvP games in Korea since WCG), and .... aLive maybe? MMA? MVP? It's a sad day when MMA's a contender for Top 5 TvPs, but he's been having some surprisingly good results in it lately.
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The thing that really sucks about TvP is how early/mid game is really hard for toss and late game is really hard for terran. Right now it's basically the terran trying to fuck up the protoss before late game and the toss trying to defend it to get the 200/200 deathball and win. It really makes for uninteresting games.
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France12758 Posts
On February 09 2012 04:44 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 04:31 Poopi wrote:On February 09 2012 04:11 SwizzY wrote:On February 09 2012 03:45 CaptainCrush wrote:On February 09 2012 03:08 songohan wrote:
ahh it's good to see the people with real skill advance. You mean Jjakji, the guy that was #3 on the top 5 korean list just a few days ago, has no skill? Jjakji, the guy that went deep into the previous code S tournament? MC is a world class player but I honestly think a few other tossers are still in code S because of recent buffs. Flame me all you want but its about time toss started using its potential, it has been an incredibly abusive race from the start, there just werent enough people taking advantage of it. Hopefully they will have some of their recent/ unecessary buffs taken back so this game can continue like its supposed to! Like it's supposed to? Stop throwing around absolutes unless you are a Korean, at minimum Code B, logging 25+ games a day. Anything lower and you better get a flame-retardant suit instead of that measly umbrella of "flame me all you want." Think about it though. Are either Jjakji or GanZi known for their amazing TvP? *Insert resounding* NO. Jjakji is pretty decent but GanZi is downright terrible. They got handled by one TvP GOD in MC and another known for OUTSTANDING TvP against Terrans like Clide, NaDa, TOP, and now Jjakji. Don't throw out balance whine with such baseless accusations. On note...... MC!!!! :D))))) -}-< Lol ? Jjakji is one of the best TvPers we have. Jjakji, MKP, Polt. These three are presumably the best TvP there are right now Polt's TvP hasn't looked good vs. strong Ps in a long time. The top three are probably Jjakji, MKP (though he hasn't shown TvP games in Korea since WCG), and .... aLive maybe? MMA? MVP? It's a sad day when MMA's a contender for Top 5 TvPs, but he's been having some surprisingly good results in it lately.
He has crushed Oz, Hero etc in MSI pro cup.
The games were played on the korean server, I'm 100% certain that Polt is still a top 3 TvPer.
Jjakji's strength has been preparation in his TvP tho, so maybe his groupstage TvP is not as good?
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On February 09 2012 04:12 Horseballs wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 03:59 tdt wrote:
Can't belive terran whine when it's 3 protoss and 3 terran left. I gess they are used to all RO8 being Terran with one token zerg or protoss. Sorry guys blanace is 33/33/33% It isn't based on raw numbers of who is left, it is based on the content of the games played. For instance: I have no issues at all with the metropolis game. Jjakji scouts the quick third, and decides to go for a 2 base ghost all-in to try to kill the protoss before too much splash is on the field. Protoss should have won that game. However, the game on cloud kingdom just seemed ridiculous. Parting forgets charge, a key component to the strategy he is trying to execute. He has his third denied twice - he is forced to cancel each time right after the nexus is over half built. Jjakji has 2-1 or 3-1 (I'll have to go back and look, either way he was ahead of protoss in upgrade) and is putting up a fourth when protoss is finally establishing his third. Parting lets his army get cornered and killed for basically nothing, it is a completely one-sided stomping and jjakji is up by a huge amount of supply... and he can not kill the protoss no matter what he does. Protoss just warps in zealots and cannons and storms all over the equally or better upgraded terran army until he gets his deathball and just one-shots planetaries and kills everything. Jjakji tries, but can't drop because Parting smartly uses cannons and templar to defend his bases. The game on Antiga was under similar circumstances, Jjakji up by a large amount of supply, scans the protoss third while it is being built and sees colossus and templar, and even though he has a much larger army he just freezes because he cannot attack into it. He could risk it and hope storm wasn't done building, but then it is just blind luck if he wins. Later, parting donates his army again, and again he can not be killed. That Jjakji landed his vikings made sense, after all he just CRUSHED through a protoss army supply efficiently, but no - Parting just warped in zealots and spammed storms everywhere and terran could not kill him. The game on Daybreak doesn't even make sense to me, it defies all RTS logic. You cannot rely on statistics and win-rates to make any claim about balance. In the Cloud Kingdom and Antiga games, parting made enormous mistakes, mistakes that if Jjakji had made, would've ended the game instantly.
Lol, I would love to see the replay of that game to analyze slowly and see what the casters missed. Parting outplayed him in many aspects which you refuse to acknowledge. Lol at you saying "Parting forgets charge", as if it had any impact on the game---it's not like a huge push came from Jjaki at that timing and was still held off easily. Yes, Parting's nexus was forced to cancel twice. Yes, he lost his army when cornered. Yes, Jjaki also crushed through the protoss army supply efficiently, but you're acting like Parting had Khydarian Amulet or something---yes, he warped in a lot of zealots, he also had a ton of templar that weren't in the initial battle that then came and laid down a lot of storms defensively. How would the battle have looked if those templar were there in the first place laying down those storms?
But how many unnecessary storms did Jjaki eat? How often did he really snipe templar or EMP them when he could have with better ghost control? How many times did he get his ghosts sniped when he wasnt looking? How good were his engagements, really? How many ghosts were there compared to templar? How many marines did Jjaki end up building to inflate his supply compared to those high amounts of templar, which they aren't particularly good versus? How many storms went off compared to EMP? How well did Jjaki actually macro compared to Parting? How well did he harass compared to Parting, who seemed to be doing it more frequently and denied the fourth repeatedly? Yes, cannons and templar are good defense but it's not an impenetrable defense by any means---what can two or three dropships, with low energy so they don't get feedbacked, do to Parting's main base when his army is out on the map?
You act like that game defies RTS logic---lmao, what RTS logic? The RTS logic where recently blanket EMP slaughtered everything before its nerf and still, if Jjaki got them off properly, would have done a lot of damage? At the VERY most, Blizzard should look into slightly reworking the EMP change. The RTS logic where terran, caught unsieged by zerg, gets absolutely destroyed? Where a lucky baneling mine can slaughter 20 marines? Where one EMP can hit all templar if protoss isn't looking? Where, in an observer is out of position or sniped with a scan, cloaked ghosts can blanket EMP the protoss army and snipe high templar? Good thing there is more to this game than remembering your upgrades and building expansions, and it comes down to individual skill and (maybe too often) luck.
It seems every single game a protoss in the GSL wins now is an indicator of imbalance and maybe not skill based, and no one acknowledges what the protoss actually did well compared to the terran.
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MC showing MVP how it's done.
Parting's greedy build may attract people in late game PvX but after revealing that same start in what essentially was a best of 7 vs jakji, people will know already to exploit his greediness. Glad MC didn't show any new strat though and just ended games early.
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United States15275 Posts
On February 09 2012 04:44 babylon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 04:31 Poopi wrote:On February 09 2012 04:11 SwizzY wrote:On February 09 2012 03:45 CaptainCrush wrote:On February 09 2012 03:08 songohan wrote:
ahh it's good to see the people with real skill advance. You mean Jjakji, the guy that was #3 on the top 5 korean list just a few days ago, has no skill? Jjakji, the guy that went deep into the previous code S tournament? MC is a world class player but I honestly think a few other tossers are still in code S because of recent buffs. Flame me all you want but its about time toss started using its potential, it has been an incredibly abusive race from the start, there just werent enough people taking advantage of it. Hopefully they will have some of their recent/ unecessary buffs taken back so this game can continue like its supposed to! Like it's supposed to? Stop throwing around absolutes unless you are a Korean, at minimum Code B, logging 25+ games a day. Anything lower and you better get a flame-retardant suit instead of that measly umbrella of "flame me all you want." Think about it though. Are either Jjakji or GanZi known for their amazing TvP? *Insert resounding* NO. Jjakji is pretty decent but GanZi is downright terrible. They got handled by one TvP GOD in MC and another known for OUTSTANDING TvP against Terrans like Clide, NaDa, TOP, and now Jjakji. Don't throw out balance whine with such baseless accusations. On note...... MC!!!! :D))))) -}-< Lol ? Jjakji is one of the best TvPers we have. Jjakji, MKP, Polt. These three are presumably the best TvP there are right now Polt's TvP hasn't looked good vs. strong Ps in a long time. The top three are probably Jjakji, MKP (though he hasn't shown TvP games in Korea since WCG), and .... aLive maybe? MMA? MVP? It's a sad day when MMA's a contender for Top 5 TvPs, but he's been having some surprisingly good results in it lately.
lolwut are you smoking something?
Jjakji's TvP is based on gimmick builds like 2 base ghost pushes. Alive's success was completely centered on extremely heavy early pressure. Polt is possibly the only Korean Terran who knows how to play a macro TvP with pure MMM.
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France12758 Posts
On February 09 2012 05:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 04:44 babylon wrote:On February 09 2012 04:31 Poopi wrote:On February 09 2012 04:11 SwizzY wrote:On February 09 2012 03:45 CaptainCrush wrote:On February 09 2012 03:08 songohan wrote:
ahh it's good to see the people with real skill advance. You mean Jjakji, the guy that was #3 on the top 5 korean list just a few days ago, has no skill? Jjakji, the guy that went deep into the previous code S tournament? MC is a world class player but I honestly think a few other tossers are still in code S because of recent buffs. Flame me all you want but its about time toss started using its potential, it has been an incredibly abusive race from the start, there just werent enough people taking advantage of it. Hopefully they will have some of their recent/ unecessary buffs taken back so this game can continue like its supposed to! Like it's supposed to? Stop throwing around absolutes unless you are a Korean, at minimum Code B, logging 25+ games a day. Anything lower and you better get a flame-retardant suit instead of that measly umbrella of "flame me all you want." Think about it though. Are either Jjakji or GanZi known for their amazing TvP? *Insert resounding* NO. Jjakji is pretty decent but GanZi is downright terrible. They got handled by one TvP GOD in MC and another known for OUTSTANDING TvP against Terrans like Clide, NaDa, TOP, and now Jjakji. Don't throw out balance whine with such baseless accusations. On note...... MC!!!! :D))))) -}-< Lol ? Jjakji is one of the best TvPers we have. Jjakji, MKP, Polt. These three are presumably the best TvP there are right now Polt's TvP hasn't looked good vs. strong Ps in a long time. The top three are probably Jjakji, MKP (though he hasn't shown TvP games in Korea since WCG), and .... aLive maybe? MMA? MVP? It's a sad day when MMA's a contender for Top 5 TvPs, but he's been having some surprisingly good results in it lately. lolwut are you smoking something? Jjakji's TvP is based on gimmicky builds. Alive's success was completely centered on extremely heavy early pressure. Polt is possibly the only Korean Terran who knows how to play a macro TvP.
You should try to TvP ^^.
The better way to beat protoss is to win with a lot of different gimmicky / mindgames based builds.
Whatever build, strat, or anything you use to win TvP, makes you a good TvPer.
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On February 09 2012 05:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 04:44 babylon wrote:On February 09 2012 04:31 Poopi wrote:On February 09 2012 04:11 SwizzY wrote:On February 09 2012 03:45 CaptainCrush wrote:On February 09 2012 03:08 songohan wrote:
ahh it's good to see the people with real skill advance. You mean Jjakji, the guy that was #3 on the top 5 korean list just a few days ago, has no skill? Jjakji, the guy that went deep into the previous code S tournament? MC is a world class player but I honestly think a few other tossers are still in code S because of recent buffs. Flame me all you want but its about time toss started using its potential, it has been an incredibly abusive race from the start, there just werent enough people taking advantage of it. Hopefully they will have some of their recent/ unecessary buffs taken back so this game can continue like its supposed to! Like it's supposed to? Stop throwing around absolutes unless you are a Korean, at minimum Code B, logging 25+ games a day. Anything lower and you better get a flame-retardant suit instead of that measly umbrella of "flame me all you want." Think about it though. Are either Jjakji or GanZi known for their amazing TvP? *Insert resounding* NO. Jjakji is pretty decent but GanZi is downright terrible. They got handled by one TvP GOD in MC and another known for OUTSTANDING TvP against Terrans like Clide, NaDa, TOP, and now Jjakji. Don't throw out balance whine with such baseless accusations. On note...... MC!!!! :D))))) -}-< Lol ? Jjakji is one of the best TvPers we have. Jjakji, MKP, Polt. These three are presumably the best TvP there are right now Polt's TvP hasn't looked good vs. strong Ps in a long time. The top three are probably Jjakji, MKP (though he hasn't shown TvP games in Korea since WCG), and .... aLive maybe? MMA? MVP? It's a sad day when MMA's a contender for Top 5 TvPs, but he's been having some surprisingly good results in it lately. lolwut are you smoking something? Jjakji's TvP is based on gimmick builds like 2 base ghost pushes. Alive's success was completely centered on extremely heavy early pressure. Polt is possibly the only Korean Terran who knows how to play a macro TvP with pure MMM.
To be successful in Korea in TvP right is to implement alot of gimmicky stuff into your arsenal and throw it at your opponent mixed in with standard macro games and hope to catch your opponent with something he doesn't quite expect. This is how Jjakji beat Puzzle and Oz last season for example. If the opponent expects you to play a macro games you probably will lose because the Protoss macro mechanics are just better.
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On February 09 2012 04:58 Heavenly wrote:
It seems every single game a protoss in the GSL wins now is an indicator of imbalance and maybe not skill based, and no one acknowledges what the protoss actually did well compared to the terran.
This sentence is the easiest way to sumup all the qqing going on in this thread, I don't understand why this thread is still open when balance "discussion" is not supposed to be a part of it. Based on raw numbers terran has been beating protoss ever since release with the only exception being 1 bloody month, get your act together and act like mature players instead of qqing little kids.
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United States15275 Posts
On February 09 2012 05:12 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 05:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:On February 09 2012 04:44 babylon wrote:On February 09 2012 04:31 Poopi wrote:On February 09 2012 04:11 SwizzY wrote:On February 09 2012 03:45 CaptainCrush wrote:On February 09 2012 03:08 songohan wrote:
ahh it's good to see the people with real skill advance. You mean Jjakji, the guy that was #3 on the top 5 korean list just a few days ago, has no skill? Jjakji, the guy that went deep into the previous code S tournament? MC is a world class player but I honestly think a few other tossers are still in code S because of recent buffs. Flame me all you want but its about time toss started using its potential, it has been an incredibly abusive race from the start, there just werent enough people taking advantage of it. Hopefully they will have some of their recent/ unecessary buffs taken back so this game can continue like its supposed to! Like it's supposed to? Stop throwing around absolutes unless you are a Korean, at minimum Code B, logging 25+ games a day. Anything lower and you better get a flame-retardant suit instead of that measly umbrella of "flame me all you want." Think about it though. Are either Jjakji or GanZi known for their amazing TvP? *Insert resounding* NO. Jjakji is pretty decent but GanZi is downright terrible. They got handled by one TvP GOD in MC and another known for OUTSTANDING TvP against Terrans like Clide, NaDa, TOP, and now Jjakji. Don't throw out balance whine with such baseless accusations. On note...... MC!!!! :D))))) -}-< Lol ? Jjakji is one of the best TvPers we have. Jjakji, MKP, Polt. These three are presumably the best TvP there are right now Polt's TvP hasn't looked good vs. strong Ps in a long time. The top three are probably Jjakji, MKP (though he hasn't shown TvP games in Korea since WCG), and .... aLive maybe? MMA? MVP? It's a sad day when MMA's a contender for Top 5 TvPs, but he's been having some surprisingly good results in it lately. lolwut are you smoking something? Jjakji's TvP is based on gimmicky builds. Alive's success was completely centered on extremely heavy early pressure. Polt is possibly the only Korean Terran who knows how to play a macro TvP. You should try to TvP ^^. The better way to beat protoss is to win with a lot of different gimmicky / mindgames based builds. Whatever build, strat, or anything you use to win TvP, makes you a good TvPer.
The cheap way to beat Protoss is to depend on mindgames and do gimmick builds. It's cheap because it's fragile and will never be consistent enough to consistently win games.
People say Inca is crap because he depends on mindgames and prep to win PvTs, but now Jjakji is top 3 TvP player because he does the same thing? TL your hypocrisy is staggering.
On February 09 2012 05:16 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 05:10 CosmicSpiral wrote:On February 09 2012 04:44 babylon wrote:On February 09 2012 04:31 Poopi wrote:On February 09 2012 04:11 SwizzY wrote:On February 09 2012 03:45 CaptainCrush wrote:On February 09 2012 03:08 songohan wrote:
ahh it's good to see the people with real skill advance. You mean Jjakji, the guy that was #3 on the top 5 korean list just a few days ago, has no skill? Jjakji, the guy that went deep into the previous code S tournament? MC is a world class player but I honestly think a few other tossers are still in code S because of recent buffs. Flame me all you want but its about time toss started using its potential, it has been an incredibly abusive race from the start, there just werent enough people taking advantage of it. Hopefully they will have some of their recent/ unecessary buffs taken back so this game can continue like its supposed to! Like it's supposed to? Stop throwing around absolutes unless you are a Korean, at minimum Code B, logging 25+ games a day. Anything lower and you better get a flame-retardant suit instead of that measly umbrella of "flame me all you want." Think about it though. Are either Jjakji or GanZi known for their amazing TvP? *Insert resounding* NO. Jjakji is pretty decent but GanZi is downright terrible. They got handled by one TvP GOD in MC and another known for OUTSTANDING TvP against Terrans like Clide, NaDa, TOP, and now Jjakji. Don't throw out balance whine with such baseless accusations. On note...... MC!!!! :D))))) -}-< Lol ? Jjakji is one of the best TvPers we have. Jjakji, MKP, Polt. These three are presumably the best TvP there are right now Polt's TvP hasn't looked good vs. strong Ps in a long time. The top three are probably Jjakji, MKP (though he hasn't shown TvP games in Korea since WCG), and .... aLive maybe? MMA? MVP? It's a sad day when MMA's a contender for Top 5 TvPs, but he's been having some surprisingly good results in it lately. lolwut are you smoking something? Jjakji's TvP is based on gimmick builds like 2 base ghost pushes. Alive's success was completely centered on extremely heavy early pressure. Polt is possibly the only Korean Terran who knows how to play a macro TvP with pure MMM. To be successful in Korea in TvP right is to implement alot of gimmicky stuff into your arsenal and throw it at your opponent mixed in with standard macro games and hope to catch your opponent with something he doesn't quite expect. This is how Jjakji beat Puzzle and Oz last season for example. If the opponent expects you to play a macro games you probably will lose because the Protoss macro mechanics are just better.
I refuse to believe this based on the simple fact that this was the exact same reasoning going around in Korean PvZ during the dark ages. "Hurrdurr, zerg can take a fast third and we can't do anything about it. Shouldn't try to play a macro game. Gotta rely on 2 base all-ins and cheese builds". Was there some magical patch that completely flipped the matchup upside down? If there was someone please inform me.
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On February 09 2012 04:58 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2012 04:12 Horseballs wrote:On February 09 2012 03:59 tdt wrote:
Can't belive terran whine when it's 3 protoss and 3 terran left. I gess they are used to all RO8 being Terran with one token zerg or protoss. Sorry guys blanace is 33/33/33% It isn't based on raw numbers of who is left, it is based on the content of the games played. For instance: I have no issues at all with the metropolis game. Jjakji scouts the quick third, and decides to go for a 2 base ghost all-in to try to kill the protoss before too much splash is on the field. Protoss should have won that game. However, the game on cloud kingdom just seemed ridiculous. Parting forgets charge, a key component to the strategy he is trying to execute. He has his third denied twice - he is forced to cancel each time right after the nexus is over half built. Jjakji has 2-1 or 3-1 (I'll have to go back and look, either way he was ahead of protoss in upgrade) and is putting up a fourth when protoss is finally establishing his third. Parting lets his army get cornered and killed for basically nothing, it is a completely one-sided stomping and jjakji is up by a huge amount of supply... and he can not kill the protoss no matter what he does. Protoss just warps in zealots and cannons and storms all over the equally or better upgraded terran army until he gets his deathball and just one-shots planetaries and kills everything. Jjakji tries, but can't drop because Parting smartly uses cannons and templar to defend his bases. The game on Antiga was under similar circumstances, Jjakji up by a large amount of supply, scans the protoss third while it is being built and sees colossus and templar, and even though he has a much larger army he just freezes because he cannot attack into it. He could risk it and hope storm wasn't done building, but then it is just blind luck if he wins. Later, parting donates his army again, and again he can not be killed. That Jjakji landed his vikings made sense, after all he just CRUSHED through a protoss army supply efficiently, but no - Parting just warped in zealots and spammed storms everywhere and terran could not kill him. The game on Daybreak doesn't even make sense to me, it defies all RTS logic. You cannot rely on statistics and win-rates to make any claim about balance. In the Cloud Kingdom and Antiga games, parting made enormous mistakes, mistakes that if Jjakji had made, would've ended the game instantly. Lol, I would love to see the replay of that game to analyze slowly and see what the casters missed. Parting outplayed him in many aspects which you refuse to acknowledge. Lol at you saying "Parting forgets charge", as if it had any impact on the game---it's not like a huge push came from Jjaki at that timing and was still held off easily. Yes, Parting's nexus was forced to cancel twice. Yes, he lost his army when cornered. Yes, Jjaki also crushed through the protoss army supply efficiently, but you're acting like Parting had Khydarian Amulet or something---yes, he warped in a lot of zealots, he also had a ton of templar that weren't in the initial battle that then came and laid down a lot of storms defensively. How would the battle have looked if those templar were there in the first place laying down those storms? But how many unnecessary storms did Jjaki eat? How often did he really snipe templar or EMP them when he could have with better ghost control? How many times did he get his ghosts sniped when he wasnt looking? How good were his engagements, really? How many ghosts were there compared to templar? How many marines did Jjaki end up building to inflate his supply compared to those high amounts of templar, which they aren't particularly good versus? How many storms went off compared to EMP? How well did Jjaki actually macro compared to Parting? How well did he harass compared to Parting, who seemed to be doing it more frequently and denied the fourth repeatedly? Yes, cannons and templar are good defense but it's not an impenetrable defense by any means---what can two or three dropships, with low energy so they don't get feedbacked, do to Parting's main base when his army is out on the map? You act like that game defies RTS logic---lmao, what RTS logic? The RTS logic where recently blanket EMP slaughtered everything before its nerf and still, if Jjaki got them off properly, would have done a lot of damage? At the VERY most, Blizzard should look into slightly reworking the EMP change. The RTS logic where terran, caught unsieged by zerg, gets absolutely destroyed? Where a lucky baneling mine can slaughter 20 marines? Where one EMP can hit all templar if protoss isn't looking? Where, in an observer is out of position or sniped with a scan, cloaked ghosts can blanket EMP the protoss army and snipe high templar? Good thing there is more to this game than remembering your upgrades and building expansions, and it comes down to individual skill and (maybe too often) luck. It seems every single game a protoss in the GSL wins now is an indicator of imbalance and maybe not skill based, and no one acknowledges what the protoss actually did well compared to the terran.
What about the part where one player lost 50 food of expensive tech units, but there was no viable way to punish him for it?
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EPT
