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On February 14 2012 01:21 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 22:12 bouhko wrote:On February 13 2012 21:51 zefreak wrote:On February 13 2012 14:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 13 2012 14:00 wanghis wrote:On February 13 2012 13:59 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 13 2012 13:55 Beakyboo wrote:
I'm sure he knows people want to see macro games out of him too. Like, it's a showmatch, he must be aware that the whole point is people want to see these games. Showing up and then deciding you don't actually want to play is really a big fuck you to everyone watching. It's hard to understand why he's even still doing this with that attitude. There is such double standard here it is ridiculous, if I was a mod I would be handing out bans for player bashing. Imagine if this had been a best of three and Alive's first two cheeses failed badly. Would we be all over Alive, accusing him of not caring, throwing the match, not coming to play a macro game ect? No, so why are we accusing Idra? All this proved is that Alive is a better cheeser than Idra, since all the games were cheese. It was just as much Alive's fault that the games were cheese as it was Idra's. And that is the facts. Idra did not show up and not want to play, Alive showed up to cheese, and Idra decided to cheese in response. Hate them both (and hate cheese) or hate neither. The double standard is ridiculous. Except Alive was using legitimate strategies and IdrA was 6 pooling while doing a bad job of it? You can play Poker and win with "legit" strats, or you can win with luck. Alive was playing extremely risky, if you scout what he is doing and respond properly, you easily defeat it. He was going to need Idra to not respond and not scout it to win. He was lucky Idra did neither well. Now you could argue that since he won, the ends justify the means, and thus he looks brilliant, but what if he lost both of those games? Would you say "Except Idra was using legitimate strategies and Alive was all-inning and doing a bad job of it?" Would we be all over Alive, accusing him of not caring, throwing the match, not coming to play a macro game ect? I just had to to respond to this post because, as a poker player, I think I know more about exploiting strategies and balancing ranges and how it applies to SC2. Idra's problem is that he is so exploitable that any early cheese is a legitimate strategy against him. An early cheese can be a great strategy against certain players and a horrible strategy against others. Alive's game 1 strategy was great against Idra because everyone knows he plays greedy and doesn't respond well to pressure. Idra doesn't successfully 'balance his range', or mix up his build orders. Playing solid starcraft doesn't mean only playing macro games, just as playing solid poker doesn't mean sitting around like a nit playing QQ and AK+. Truly solid play changes based on the opponent; if the opponent is playing tight, ABC poker than playing 'by the book' is actually incorrect. Letting Idra get to the mid/late game without putting pressure on his obvious weakness is not playing the game correctly. Alive is a good SC2 player, and like any game, SC2 is not about unit control or macro but about EXPLOITING your opponents weakness. Micro/macro is but a means to that end and Idra needs to change his understanding of the game if he is to be at all successful. We all saw what happened to Naniwa at Providence.. an unbalanced build opening range (going FFE every map) is POOR PLAY regardless of how good your micro/macro is and will be punished by players who understand this (Leenock). This. Thousand times. Ya that's pretty correct but it was a show match your not suppose to go allin 2 games in a row and expect yourself to be taken serious sure throw in 1 to keep your opponent honest but really? This isn't for 10k or some huge tournament this is really just to expose your play to new viewers and get a little cash on side (win or lose) I understand what Idra did completely I personally would have dropped after game 2 and just said no to more games with him if I wanted to be cheesed every game I'd go on the Korean ladder. .
Is this a joke? If you want to watch player dick about then watch all star games (which coincidently are the least entertaining games in all of esports). Alive is playing to win because he is a winner, that's why he's in Code S and he's a great player.
You have no clue what it means to be a professional competitor in anything.
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On February 14 2012 01:00 Orzabal wrote:
I agree with MrCon and zefreak.
The mindset of Idra suffer from lack of flexibility. If he thinks he made a mistake he GG.
He is also too predictible, to readable, to rigid.
It is a shame because he is very clever, and his understanding of the game is above many progamer.
I'm not going to doubt that Idra has a very deep understanding of the game, but I would argue that it's not above many progamers. He has a very naive sense of what's going on, or at least I assume he does, because otherwise he wouldn't just randomly drop or just poorly cheese his opponent--he's not good at it (Nestea 6 pooled Genius in the GSL, he still made that game go extremely long and very nearly took it back). In fact, as a general statement, Koreans possess this unique quality of being able to cheese and transition into a normal game because they're good enough to do -enough- damage with it to not just die to a counterattack.
I would say that Idra either doesn't realize that, unlike say--League of Legends, you can actually come back from a losing position in SC2 or doesn't realize how not-that-far-behind he is. It happens so often, it's not like it's something rare. At IEM San Paulo, Demuslim had a -clear- win over Violet on Dual Sight and a few intelligent zergling / roach run-by's later Demuslim dies.
If his faults are being too predictable, readable, rigid, and inflexible, then his understanding of the game isn't above many pro-gamers. He has mechanics and macro above many pro-gamers, but unfortunately SC2 isn't Sim City.
He would be a total beast if he conformed his playstyle to what people are actually doing, not what he thinks people should be doing. Koreans in particular are far more aggressive while maintaining the same level of macro and expansion timings. You need to expect early pushes every game and actually be able to handle them.
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On February 14 2012 01:21 CajunMan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 22:12 bouhko wrote:On February 13 2012 21:51 zefreak wrote:On February 13 2012 14:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 13 2012 14:00 wanghis wrote:On February 13 2012 13:59 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 13 2012 13:55 Beakyboo wrote:
I'm sure he knows people want to see macro games out of him too. Like, it's a showmatch, he must be aware that the whole point is people want to see these games. Showing up and then deciding you don't actually want to play is really a big fuck you to everyone watching. It's hard to understand why he's even still doing this with that attitude. There is such double standard here it is ridiculous, if I was a mod I would be handing out bans for player bashing. Imagine if this had been a best of three and Alive's first two cheeses failed badly. Would we be all over Alive, accusing him of not caring, throwing the match, not coming to play a macro game ect? No, so why are we accusing Idra? All this proved is that Alive is a better cheeser than Idra, since all the games were cheese. It was just as much Alive's fault that the games were cheese as it was Idra's. And that is the facts. Idra did not show up and not want to play, Alive showed up to cheese, and Idra decided to cheese in response. Hate them both (and hate cheese) or hate neither. The double standard is ridiculous. Except Alive was using legitimate strategies and IdrA was 6 pooling while doing a bad job of it? You can play Poker and win with "legit" strats, or you can win with luck. Alive was playing extremely risky, if you scout what he is doing and respond properly, you easily defeat it. He was going to need Idra to not respond and not scout it to win. He was lucky Idra did neither well. Now you could argue that since he won, the ends justify the means, and thus he looks brilliant, but what if he lost both of those games? Would you say "Except Idra was using legitimate strategies and Alive was all-inning and doing a bad job of it?" Would we be all over Alive, accusing him of not caring, throwing the match, not coming to play a macro game ect? I just had to to respond to this post because, as a poker player, I think I know more about exploiting strategies and balancing ranges and how it applies to SC2. Idra's problem is that he is so exploitable that any early cheese is a legitimate strategy against him. An early cheese can be a great strategy against certain players and a horrible strategy against others. Alive's game 1 strategy was great against Idra because everyone knows he plays greedy and doesn't respond well to pressure. Idra doesn't successfully 'balance his range', or mix up his build orders. Playing solid starcraft doesn't mean only playing macro games, just as playing solid poker doesn't mean sitting around like a nit playing QQ and AK+. Truly solid play changes based on the opponent; if the opponent is playing tight, ABC poker than playing 'by the book' is actually incorrect. Letting Idra get to the mid/late game without putting pressure on his obvious weakness is not playing the game correctly. Alive is a good SC2 player, and like any game, SC2 is not about unit control or macro but about EXPLOITING your opponents weakness. Micro/macro is but a means to that end and Idra needs to change his understanding of the game if he is to be at all successful. We all saw what happened to Naniwa at Providence.. an unbalanced build opening range (going FFE every map) is POOR PLAY regardless of how good your micro/macro is and will be punished by players who understand this (Leenock). This. Thousand times. Ya that's pretty correct but it was a show match your not suppose to go allin 2 games in a row and expect yourself to be taken serious sure throw in 1 to keep your opponent honest but really? This isn't for 10k or some huge tournament this is really just to expose your play to new viewers and get a little cash on side (win or lose) I understand what Idra did completely I personally would have dropped after game 2 and just said no to more games with him if I wanted to be cheesed every game I'd go on the Korean ladder.Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 01:21 PureBalls wrote:Couldnt agree more. Idra dosnt deserve to have any fans. The fact, that this guy, who has no competitive spirit and 0 showman personality has so many fans, while at the same time cool players receive no love, makes me lose fate in humanity and not want to live on this planet anymore.  Haters gonna hate.
This attitude is seriously concerning, because not only will you ever not be a professional progamer, nor deserve to be, you will never be a professional at anything. If things dont go according to your narrow little views in life, you just give up and say "to hell with it?".
And your not even taking into account that some 10,000 people took the time out to watch your games, willing to dedicate upwards of 2 hours of their time, and for a lot of people in the middle of the night? I was an IdrA fan, I'm not any more and haven't been for a while, because he shits on the fact that he has a priviledge that so many people would love to have, and acts as a child, instead of the professional his team and sponsors expect him to be.
IdrA will be irrelevent within the year, and I would love to say he can avoid this if he can change his rediculous mindset, but we all know thats not going to happen.
When are you fanboys going to realize that youre supporting a sub-par player who doesn't give a damn about you or your support?
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On February 13 2012 21:51 zefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 14:05 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 13 2012 14:00 wanghis wrote:On February 13 2012 13:59 BronzeKnee wrote:On February 13 2012 13:55 Beakyboo wrote:
I'm sure he knows people want to see macro games out of him too. Like, it's a showmatch, he must be aware that the whole point is people want to see these games. Showing up and then deciding you don't actually want to play is really a big fuck you to everyone watching. It's hard to understand why he's even still doing this with that attitude. There is such double standard here it is ridiculous, if I was a mod I would be handing out bans for player bashing. Imagine if this had been a best of three and Alive's first two cheeses failed badly. Would we be all over Alive, accusing him of not caring, throwing the match, not coming to play a macro game ect? No, so why are we accusing Idra? All this proved is that Alive is a better cheeser than Idra, since all the games were cheese. It was just as much Alive's fault that the games were cheese as it was Idra's. And that is the facts. Idra did not show up and not want to play, Alive showed up to cheese, and Idra decided to cheese in response. Hate them both (and hate cheese) or hate neither. The double standard is ridiculous. Except Alive was using legitimate strategies and IdrA was 6 pooling while doing a bad job of it? You can play Poker and win with "legit" strats, or you can win with luck. Alive was playing extremely risky, if you scout what he is doing and respond properly, you easily defeat it. He was going to need Idra to not respond and not scout it to win. He was lucky Idra did neither well. Now you could argue that since he won, the ends justify the means, and thus he looks brilliant, but what if he lost both of those games? Would you say "Except Idra was using legitimate strategies and Alive was all-inning and doing a bad job of it?" Would we be all over Alive, accusing him of not caring, throwing the match, not coming to play a macro game ect? I just had to to respond to this post because, as a poker player, I think I know more about exploiting strategies and balancing ranges and how it applies to SC2. Idra's problem is that he is so exploitable that any early cheese is a legitimate strategy against him. An early cheese can be a great strategy against certain players and a horrible strategy against others. Alive's game 1 strategy was great against Idra because everyone knows he plays greedy and doesn't respond well to pressure. Idra doesn't successfully 'balance his range', or mix up his build orders. Playing solid starcraft doesn't mean only playing macro games, just as playing solid poker doesn't mean sitting around like a nit playing QQ and AK+. Truly solid play changes based on the opponent; if the opponent is playing tight, ABC poker than playing 'by the book' is actually incorrect. Letting Idra get to the mid/late game without putting pressure on his obvious weakness is not playing the game correctly. Alive is a good SC2 player, and like any game, SC2 is not about unit control or macro but about EXPLOITING your opponents weakness. Micro/macro is but a means to that end and Idra needs to change his understanding of the game if he is to be at all successful. We all saw what happened to Naniwa at Providence.. an unbalanced build opening range (going FFE every map) is POOR PLAY regardless of how good your micro/macro is and will be punished by players who understand this (Leenock).
Thank you. This is actually one of the best posts I've seen on teamliquid for a really long time.
I'm a massive idra fan and I really want him to win, but its getting very hard to take him seriously against top tier players.
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Idra is a joke. I knew it would be aLiva 4-0 Idra, before i opened the thread. MrCon said it correctly: It's a disgrace. And i also believe that he will be irrelevant within a year. He has mediocre mechanics and anyhting other than those is just bad and not progamer-level anymore.
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On February 14 2012 01:26 Seraphone wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 01:15 eloist wrote:On February 13 2012 23:05 mememolly wrote:
can idra even be considered in the top 10 outside of korea? he hasn't won anything in ages and most of his "results" have come from favourable seeds based on his reputation, his "best foreigner" tag is quickly becoming nothing more than a rumour His last tournament wins are not that old. Winning anything still puts him above just about most other players. I'm no Idra fan but I have to agree with this. Even though Idra has been playing terribly for a while he's still won multiple LAN tournaments (some of them fairly recent) and placed well in several recent MLG's. He's in a slump and maybe he will never get out of it, but he still has better overall results than basically every non Korean player not called Huk or Stephano. That said Idra will never be a top player and will only decline from here. He micro and decision making have been abysmal for a long time, he's only competent in one matchup (and even then 4-0 vs Taeja and 4-0 vs Alive suggest he can't compete in ZvT against Code S level Koreans), his ZvZ is pretty poor and his ZvP is atrocious and he lacks the mentality of a champion.
People said the same thing when he had his last little downturn and he came back strong.
I think what is tough when it comes to these showmatches is that there isn't always the same mindset going into them with each player. Clearly Alive was playing to win, and went for the juggular from game 1. If this was an MLG or GSL I'd applaud that mindset and suggest anyone playing a macro zerg do the exact same.
However, and I'm not giving Idra a pass on his play, but I'm also not exactly thrilled with Alive. When I hear showmatch(especially one with a pretty minor monetary reward) I'd like to see the players put on a bit of a show. Maybe try some different builds, throw out some different units, but to be honest I feel let down by both players. A showmatch to me is just an exhibition style match to get people excited. I want to see 40 minute games with ghosts/nukes/broodlords/nueral parasite. Not that the first 2 games couldn't have gotten to that point, but the builds chosen by Alive were far from exciting and were not geared toward "giving a show." It is the same crap we can watch and do see all the time.
Now again, these players have every right to play however they want, but I just look forward to these showmatches being more of a layed back fun event, similar to an NBA All-Star game, or Home-Run derby. Give the fans a show. I don't see how bunker rushing and mass helion builds provide that, and I hold both players accountable for what turned out to be essentially an unwatchable showmatch.
A great example of this I've always felt has been boxer. Sure he'll do his fair share of cheese and all, but I always feel like in the back of his mind he thinks, "if I'm going down, I'm going down in style." To the point where I think he has lost games in SC2 he clearly had won simply because he wanted to do something entertaining for the fans. Same goes with his showmatches with yellow, he could have taken him out easily but didn't. It just always seems like he has the fans on his mind and wants to leave you saying, " that was awesome" whether or not he wins or loses. And I think Idra's playstyle, even if it isn't his mindset lends itself to a very similar show because he naturally likes those longer macro games which the fans tend to enjoy more. So it is easy to see how it can be frustrating when no player will dare to go into a macro game even when it is a showmatch for a small sum of money.
So again, play however you want, but if you are calling these things showmatches, and you are the players involved in it, then give the fans a show. Save the hardcore builds for MLG/GSL/Lan's when the real money is on the line and use the events to build up your popularity, show you are a creative player, and have some fun with it. In the long run the monetary reward of picking up a few hundred more fans will far outweight $100.
Just my 2 cents.
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On February 14 2012 01:21 CajunMan wrote:
Ya that's pretty correct but it was a show match your not suppose to go allin 2 games in a row and expect yourself to be taken serious sure throw in 1 to keep your opponent honest but really? This isn't for 10k or some huge tournament this is really just to expose your play to new viewers and get a little cash on side (win or lose) I understand what Idra did completely I personally would have dropped after game 2 and just said no to more games with him if I wanted to be cheesed every game I'd go on the Korean ladder.
This is a terrible viewpoint, there is a good chance that Idra and Alive had very different views of this showmatch going in. For Alive he clearly was playing to win either for the money (which I am sure he needs/wants more than Idra) or for the spirit of competition. Idra on the other hand it would seem did not care that much about the money or the competition. IMO Alive's hypothetical perspective is the one I would prefer to see in a professional gamer.
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On February 14 2012 01:43 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 01:26 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 01:15 eloist wrote:On February 13 2012 23:05 mememolly wrote:
can idra even be considered in the top 10 outside of korea? he hasn't won anything in ages and most of his "results" have come from favourable seeds based on his reputation, his "best foreigner" tag is quickly becoming nothing more than a rumour His last tournament wins are not that old. Winning anything still puts him above just about most other players. I'm no Idra fan but I have to agree with this. Even though Idra has been playing terribly for a while he's still won multiple LAN tournaments (some of them fairly recent) and placed well in several recent MLG's. He's in a slump and maybe he will never get out of it, but he still has better overall results than basically every non Korean player not called Huk or Stephano. That said Idra will never be a top player and will only decline from here. He micro and decision making have been abysmal for a long time, he's only competent in one matchup (and even then 4-0 vs Taeja and 4-0 vs Alive suggest he can't compete in ZvT against Code S level Koreans), his ZvZ is pretty poor and his ZvP is atrocious and he lacks the mentality of a champion. People said the same thing when he had his last little downturn and he came back strong. I think what is tough when it comes to these showmatches is that there isn't always the same mindset going into them with each player. Clearly Alive was playing to win, and went for the juggular from game 1. If this was an MLG or GSL I'd applaud that mindset and suggest anyone playing a macro zerg do the exact same. However, and I'm not giving Idra a pass on his play, but I'm also not exactly thrilled with Alive. When I hear showmatch(especially one with a pretty minor monetary reward) I'd like to see the players put on a bit of a show. Maybe try some different builds, throw out some different units, but to be honest I feel let down by both players. A showmatch to me is just an exhibition style match to get people excited. I want to see 40 minute games with ghosts/nukes/broodlords/nueral parasite. Not that the first 2 games couldn't have gotten to that point, but the builds chosen by Alive were far from exciting and were not geared toward "giving a show." It is the same crap we can watch and do see all the time. Now again, these players have every right to play however they want, but I just look forward to these showmatches being more of a layed back fun event, similar to an NBA All-Star game, or Home-Run derby. Give the fans a show. I don't see how bunker rushing and mass helion builds provide that, and I hold both players accountable for what turned out to be essentially an unwatchable showmatch. A great example of this I've always felt has been boxer. Sure he'll do his fair share of cheese and all, but I always feel like in the back of his mind he thinks, "if I'm going down, I'm going down in style." To the point where I think he has lost games in SC2 he clearly had won simply because he wanted to do something entertaining for the fans. Same goes with his showmatches with yellow, he could have taken him out easily but didn't. It just always seems like he has the fans on his mind and wants to leave you saying, " that was awesome" whether or not he wins or loses. And I think Idra's playstyle, even if it isn't his mindset lends itself to a very similar show because he naturally likes those longer macro games which the fans tend to enjoy more. So it is easy to see how it can be frustrating when no player will dare to go into a macro game even when it is a showmatch for a small sum of money. So again, play however you want, but if you are calling these things showmatches, and you are the players involved in it, then give the fans a show. Save the hardcore builds for MLG/GSL/Lan's when the real money is on the line and use the events to build up your popularity, show you are a creative player, and have some fun with it. In the long run the monetary reward of picking up a few hundred more fans will far outweight $100. Just my 2 cents.
Leenock vs Morrow put on a 'show'. It felt completely fake and just stupid watching two player mess about and purposefully not go for the win when they knew they could. If that's what a showmatch is then I'm never watching show matches.
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blame the game not the player
its funny that we have the view of point that allin = serious but not-allin = showmatch
it should be the other way around
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On February 14 2012 01:43 FLuE wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 01:26 Seraphone wrote:On February 14 2012 01:15 eloist wrote:On February 13 2012 23:05 mememolly wrote:
can idra even be considered in the top 10 outside of korea? he hasn't won anything in ages and most of his "results" have come from favourable seeds based on his reputation, his "best foreigner" tag is quickly becoming nothing more than a rumour His last tournament wins are not that old. Winning anything still puts him above just about most other players. I'm no Idra fan but I have to agree with this. Even though Idra has been playing terribly for a while he's still won multiple LAN tournaments (some of them fairly recent) and placed well in several recent MLG's. He's in a slump and maybe he will never get out of it, but he still has better overall results than basically every non Korean player not called Huk or Stephano. That said Idra will never be a top player and will only decline from here. He micro and decision making have been abysmal for a long time, he's only competent in one matchup (and even then 4-0 vs Taeja and 4-0 vs Alive suggest he can't compete in ZvT against Code S level Koreans), his ZvZ is pretty poor and his ZvP is atrocious and he lacks the mentality of a champion. People said the same thing when he had his last little downturn and he came back strong. I think what is tough when it comes to these showmatches is that there isn't always the same mindset going into them with each player. Clearly Alive was playing to win, and went for the juggular from game 1. If this was an MLG or GSL I'd applaud that mindset and suggest anyone playing a macro zerg do the exact same. However, and I'm not giving Idra a pass on his play, but I'm also not exactly thrilled with Alive. When I hear showmatch(especially one with a pretty minor monetary reward) I'd like to see the players put on a bit of a show. Maybe try some different builds, throw out some different units, but to be honest I feel let down by both players. A showmatch to me is just an exhibition style match to get people excited. I want to see 40 minute games with ghosts/nukes/broodlords/nueral parasite. Not that the first 2 games couldn't have gotten to that point, but the builds chosen by Alive were far from exciting and were not geared toward "giving a show." It is the same crap we can watch and do see all the time. Now again, these players have every right to play however they want, but I just look forward to these showmatches being more of a layed back fun event, similar to an NBA All-Star game, or Home-Run derby. Give the fans a show. I don't see how bunker rushing and mass helion builds provide that, and I hold both players accountable for what turned out to be essentially an unwatchable showmatch. A great example of this I've always felt has been boxer. Sure he'll do his fair share of cheese and all, but I always feel like in the back of his mind he thinks, "if I'm going down, I'm going down in style." To the point where I think he has lost games in SC2 he clearly had won simply because he wanted to do something entertaining for the fans. Same goes with his showmatches with yellow, he could have taken him out easily but didn't. It just always seems like he has the fans on his mind and wants to leave you saying, " that was awesome" whether or not he wins or loses. And I think Idra's playstyle, even if it isn't his mindset lends itself to a very similar show because he naturally likes those longer macro games which the fans tend to enjoy more. So it is easy to see how it can be frustrating when no player will dare to go into a macro game even when it is a showmatch for a small sum of money. So again, play however you want, but if you are calling these things showmatches, and you are the players involved in it, then give the fans a show. Save the hardcore builds for MLG/GSL/Lan's when the real money is on the line and use the events to build up your popularity, show you are a creative player, and have some fun with it. In the long run the monetary reward of picking up a few hundred more fans will far outweight $100. Just my 2 cents.
I agree with this to a certain extent, but I don't see how legitimate (semi) all-ins should necessarily count as poor, boring play. If alive had failed his 11/11, which I am sure he expected as a possibility (it happens all the time, and games transition normally), the game would have continued. I love seeing 11/11s because I enjoy watching Zergs defend it, and it happens often. It's exciting. The only time 11/11s end up being boring games is when the Zerg mishandles the situation and dies instantly. I am mentioning this because there has been the argument that alive's 11/11 is justified because it worked, and your argument that cheesey play isn't fit for a showmatch. The two arguments rely on the result and are far too subjective, so I don't think it should be taken as truth. As for the double reactored hellion build, I actually found it really funny, almost a monobattle kinda thing. Yes it was semi-all-in, but I thought it was hilarious. Definitely showmatch worthy.
In my opinion, obvs.
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Just pure pathetic attitude by IdrA, and he is still the most loved foreigners. I don't understand people's logic.
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On February 14 2012 01:43 FLuE wrote:
However, and I'm not giving Idra a pass on his play, but I'm also not exactly thrilled with Alive. When I hear showmatch(especially one with a pretty minor monetary reward) I'd like to see the players put on a bit of a show. Maybe try some different builds, throw out some different units, but to be honest I feel let down by both players. A showmatch to me is just an exhibition style match to get people excited. I want to see 40 minute games with ghosts/nukes/broodlords/nueral parasite. Not that the first 2 games couldn't have gotten to that point, but the builds chosen by Alive were far from exciting and were not geared toward "giving a show." It is the same crap we can watch and do see all the time.
400$ is not a pretty minor monetary reward.
Regarding the situation in TSL, I'm very sure alive got no salary there. So he made roughly 1k/month, mainly through GSL Code S.
Then Koreans have a bit different perception of cheese. Some legendary games in BW were cheeses. They joke around about them and often 'test' unknown players with a very aggressive opening at the beginning of a series.
I share this perception btw.
Cheese is also not certainly game-ending. Many transition into normal games if medicore damage was dealt. Sheth pointed out how Idra could have had good shot at defending vs the hellions, but he just a-moved the drones into them.
Idra also scouted the hellions way too late, if he would have had the wall up, it would have been a normal game. alive had 2 bases up and regarding all the lings of Idra, his Hellions wouldnt have been useless.
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To be completely honest, after reading about 30 pages of this thread, the growing scarcity of Idra apologists is making me gain a lot of faith in humanity.
Congrats to alive, and, as for idra...there's not much to be said that hasn't been already.
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On February 14 2012 02:03 Yaki wrote:
Just pure pathetic attitude by IdrA, and he is still the most loved foreigners. I don't understand people's logic.
What are those names in your signature?
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On February 14 2012 02:07 FilthyLucre wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 02:03 Yaki wrote:
Just pure pathetic attitude by IdrA, and he is still the most loved foreigners. I don't understand people's logic. What are those names in your signature?
Starcraft players...?
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I haven't commented in an Idra thread in over a year now but I can't resist. I got accused of being a "hater" after I said he was just a mediocre player with a large hype machine (because he's the best NA player). I said he wasn't a threat to win the GSL and it was questionable if he was even the best foreigner (jinro ripping it up at the time). I said he just had a head start on most of the competition, having played the game since beta. I said other players will pass him by once the mechanics start getting figured out because there was absolutely nothing impressive about the macro in SC2 compared to BW. Any middling BW pro will inevitably master the macro mechanics and the games will eventually be determined by micro, strategy, and just generally good game sense.
I made a bet with a mod saying Idra's round of 8 GSL performance was as good as it'll ever get for him and we agreed to disagree and just wait for a year to see what happens. I've come to collect.
P.S.: Honestly, I would normally gloat more but I'm not taking as much satisfaction out of this as I thought I would. The whole thing is just pathetic because I didn't even expect him to drop off so much. I can name at least 6 foreigners right now off the top of my head that I'd consider to be better. He's not even the best foreign zerg in my estimation.
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Canada192 Posts
On February 14 2012 02:03 00Visor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2012 01:43 FLuE wrote:
However, and I'm not giving Idra a pass on his play, but I'm also not exactly thrilled with Alive. When I hear showmatch(especially one with a pretty minor monetary reward) I'd like to see the players put on a bit of a show. Maybe try some different builds, throw out some different units, but to be honest I feel let down by both players. A showmatch to me is just an exhibition style match to get people excited. I want to see 40 minute games with ghosts/nukes/broodlords/nueral parasite. Not that the first 2 games couldn't have gotten to that point, but the builds chosen by Alive were far from exciting and were not geared toward "giving a show." It is the same crap we can watch and do see all the time. 400$ is not a pretty minor monetary reward. Regarding the situation in TSL, I'm very sure alive got no salary there. So he made roughly 1k/month, mainly through GSL Code S. Then Koreans have a bit different perception of cheese. Some legendary games in BW were cheeses. They joke around about them and often 'test' unknown players with a very aggressive opening at the beginning of a series. I share this perception btw. Cheese is also not certainly game-ending. Many transition into normal games if medicore damage was dealt. Sheth pointed out how Idra could have had good shot at defending vs the hellions, but he just a-moved the drones into them. Idra also scouted the hellions way too late, if he would have had the wall up, it would have been a normal game. alive had 2 bases up and regarding all the lings of Idra, his Hellions wouldnt have been useless.
more like alive would be in serious deep shit if the wall got up. He HAD to do SIGNIFICANT almost game ending damage there or he would be seriously behind.
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Just to throw this out there - I *love* seeing all in, agressive play. It the best way to test the water for a poor quality player. If idra can't handle the 11/11 (which was even nerfed with the rax build time nerf) then he shouldn't be playing in these kind of show matches. I'd have much prefered to see a different foreigner who would stay the course play alive.
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Hmmm, given the never ending hype around IdrA's ZvT I thought he would snatch at least one game from alive.
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On February 14 2012 02:03 Yaki wrote:
Just pure pathetic attitude by IdrA, and he is still the most loved foreigners. I don't understand people's logic.
Well its not like the US scene has many options if they want to root for the "home team"..
The english-speaking foreigner community is very US-dominant, since KR has its own scene and even EU has many smaller communities for people speaking different languages. This results in a slight US bias over the board and disproportional hype surrounding top US players such as Idra and Huk,
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EPT
