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Contrary to popular belief Stephano is not from the States, any mindless spam asserting otherwise after this time (19:48 KST/ 5:48 AM EST/ 10:48 GMT) will meet a moderator response. We have enough confusing spam posting in LR threads these days. Lets try to keep the love for everyone's favourite French zerg reasonable.
And as always:
- No player bashing.
- No caster bashing.
- No balance whining.
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On December 12 2011 21:26 Reasonable wrote:
I really don't like how one player is chosen over the other with the same score. Head to head? What sport is this concept from? I say let MC play Stephano for the right to advance. That's some joke of a system. Stephano defeated DRG, who bested MC, if my knowledge of algebraic logical operators is correct, Stephano>DRG>MC leads to Stephano>MC. I'm surprised to see this "creativity" in a Korean tournament.
this is no new rule, same applies to many other tournaments in group play, like MLG , Dreamhack etc
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On December 12 2011 21:31 Crushinator wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 21:29 Onlinejaguar wrote:On December 12 2011 21:26 Reasonable wrote:
I really don't like how one player is chosen over the other with the same score. Head to head? What sport is this concept from? I say let MC play Stephano for the right to advance. That's some joke of a system. Stephano defeated DRG, who bested MC, if my knowledge of algebraic logical operators is correct, Stephano>DRG>MC leads to Stephano>MC. I'm surprised to see this "creativity" in a Korean tournament. Stephano lost to MC so how is it clearly Stephano>MC? His argument is that it can be argued both ways. So Stephano = MC, particularly in the format this tournament was played in it just would have made so much sense to have another game for the tie-breaker. Then there can be no question about who should advance.
Not really, you use algebra for fixed numbers. If you're saying players are at a fixed skill level that ignores Matchups, performance, builds, etc, then it can be argued that way.
Of course you could say MC > Stephano > DRG > MVP > Hero thus Stephano > MVP or MC > MVP
Either original post was a joke...or something is incredibly wrong with some people's logic.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES51707 Posts
WHAT WHAAAAAT!
dats my boy DRG!
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On December 12 2011 21:35 King.Crimson wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 21:31 mcmartini wrote:On December 12 2011 21:29 King.Crimson wrote:
I don't like the situation that transpired in the last couple of games. The loser of the first series of the last two games (Mvp - Stephano) is at a clear disadvantage, considering one of the other two players will be qualified based on the former result, and thus not put in 100% effort into their game. Both sets should have been played simultaneously to prevent this. All these comments about players not putting in 100% are ridiculous, more than anything you think MC would try harder seeing as he is living with Stephano at the moment. What if MC and DRG were clanmates and MC had no relation with Stephano. Do you honestly believe DRG wouldn't get the win from MC in that scenario? The system is flawed.
Your logic is flawed.
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On December 12 2011 21:29 King.Crimson wrote:
I don't like the situation that transpired in the last couple of games. The loser of the first series of the last two games (Mvp - Stephano) is at a clear disadvantage, considering one of the other two players will be qualified based on the former result, and thus not put in 100% effort into their game. Both sets should have been played simultaneously to prevent this.
You gotta be shitting me. First off, MC always tries, because he has a lot of pride (and arrogance) and he hates losing. DRG simply played better, if MC wasn't trying he wouldn't have stayed in the game so damn long try to weasel his way back in. 2nd then 1000 times more people would be screaming and complaining that not every game is cast or cast on the main stream. GOM just can't win, there will always be some entitled whiner on TL who will find something to whine about when their player doesn't win.
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On December 12 2011 21:35 darkest44 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 21:29 King.Crimson wrote:
I don't like the situation that transpired in the last couple of games. The loser of the first series of the last two games (Mvp - Stephano) is at a clear disadvantage, considering one of the other two players will be qualified based on the former result, and thus not put in 100% effort into their game. Both sets should have been played simultaneously to prevent this. You gotta be shitting me. First off, MC always tries, because he has a lot of pride (and arrogance) and he hates losing. DRG simply played better, if MC wasn't trying he wouldn't have stayed in the game so damn long try to weasel his way back in. 2nd then 1000 times more people would be screaming and complaining that not every game is cast or cast on the main stream. GOM just can't win, there will always be some entitled whiner on TL who will find something to whine about when their player doesn't win.
All i'm saying is play the god damn games at the same time to prevent problems like this. It's not a huge organizational effort. And it's the same procedure in football in the last week of a national league.
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On December 12 2011 21:32 Ketch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 21:26 wklbishop wrote:On December 12 2011 21:23 Ketch wrote:On December 12 2011 21:21 poorcloud wrote:On December 12 2011 21:19 IamPryda wrote:
Muta tech switch on that map so ez pz Mc pretty much went exact counter fast upgrade and Templar which are supposed to crush mutas In theory but on a map with your minerals that spread mc didnt stand a chance to be fair i don't think the mutas were that good. They certainly paid off as they picked off all the stargate units and random units here and there + templar archives but MC had them under control most of the time. It was the map structure, where MC had to split his units so much that made MC lost. Also, going for archons instead of collossus doesn't help in these choked maps. I understand that templars were useful as well, but I feel like MC should have eased up on Archons, wait before moving out and include some Colossus... Nah, against mutas, heavy templar and archons are the best choice. Hmm made a typo in my own post, fixed that. I am still curious to see what would have happened if MC had waited before pushing out, include a few less archons, as only 2 or 3 were enough imho, and tech up to colossus...
DRG went pure roach/infestor because of MC's composition. If he started mixing in colossus DRG had the resources and time to counter it however he needed - by continuing mutas production or taking more bases. It's kinda hard to say what he could have done to win, but I felt MC's build was made to discourage muta production as much as possible and force a bad decision from DRG (make ground army on crossfire - and win through forcefields).
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This tournament would have a lot more potential if the format was better. We re talking about the winners of the most important major tournaments and arguably best players in the world and they re making them play in the horrible , upset heavy format of BO1 
Id like to see them play some more and avoid games like MvP vs Hero or DRG vs Stephano. Also , Im not saying that MC threw the game cause thats just retarded , noone would ever not try his hardest in a broadcasted game and especially at this level BUT having a situation where 1 player lose or win has already advanced and holds the faith of other players' tournament life in his hand is also a pretty bad format...
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On December 12 2011 21:35 bgx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 21:33 Bromazepam wrote:
It's the classic argument, round-robin with head-to-head rule is an extremely polarising format.
Personally I hate it because it means we don't get an extra game :p
I wanted MC, Hero, DRG and Stephano to go through (wanted, not thought it'd happen!) so in the end the result of this final match didn't matter to me.
But yeah, head-to-head is a stupid rule and it sucks. those situations happened countless times in sports/esports people just have to live with it...
Or perhaps instead of being passive people could be reactive and try to voice their opinion to see if this can spring a change?
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On December 12 2011 21:30 Holdinga wrote:
Oh god you guys immediately started bashing me... Of course he didn't throw the game, it's just that being able to advance while losing and another korean to advance instead of a foreigner is really stupid. I am NOT hating on MC for gods sake...I am disappointed by the rules.
There's nothing wrong with the rules.
There is something seriously messed up with your mentality that you're dividing up players in an individual tournament by their nationality. While YOU might see the tournament in terms of Koreans and foreigners, I'm sure the players don't give a shit about that. ALL of them are there to take first place because this tournament is so packed with talent, it's going to go down as one of the most competitive tournaments.
Don't transpose your own fucked up racist mentality upon others.
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I fail to see any logic behind saying Stephano is better than MC because he beat DRG...
MC advancing and Stephano not is simply fair because he won against him. Thats how the rules are, and no way MC did drop that match on purpose.
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On December 12 2011 21:34 Severian wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 21:31 Crushinator wrote:On December 12 2011 21:29 Onlinejaguar wrote:On December 12 2011 21:26 Reasonable wrote:
I really don't like how one player is chosen over the other with the same score. Head to head? What sport is this concept from? I say let MC play Stephano for the right to advance. That's some joke of a system. Stephano defeated DRG, who bested MC, if my knowledge of algebraic logical operators is correct, Stephano>DRG>MC leads to Stephano>MC. I'm surprised to see this "creativity" in a Korean tournament. Stephano lost to MC so how is it clearly Stephano>MC? His argument is that it can be argued both ways. So Stephano = MC, particularly in the format this tournament was played in it just would have made so much sense to have another game for the tie-breaker. Then there can be no question about who should advance. We should collate the results from every tournament and ladder match that has ever taken place between the participants, then rank each player according to whom they have beaten and who has beaten them. In the case of situations like the above, where a cycle exists, we will play more games to determine the greater player. Once all cycles have been eliminated, we will have the truly perfect ranking of every single player in the tournament and there will be absolutely no reason for anyone to complain about the format or claim that their favourite player only lost because the lights on their side of the studio were slightly dimmer.
Reductio ad absurdum, nice.
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On December 12 2011 21:35 King.Crimson wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 21:31 mcmartini wrote:On December 12 2011 21:29 King.Crimson wrote:
I don't like the situation that transpired in the last couple of games. The loser of the first series of the last two games (Mvp - Stephano) is at a clear disadvantage, considering one of the other two players will be qualified based on the former result, and thus not put in 100% effort into their game. Both sets should have been played simultaneously to prevent this. All these comments about players not putting in 100% are ridiculous, more than anything you think MC would try harder seeing as he is living with Stephano at the moment. What if MC and DRG were clanmates and MC had no relation with Stephano. Do you honestly believe DRG wouldn't get the win from MC in that scenario? The system is flawed.
I still think he wouldn't throw the game at all, did you see what happened to Cocoa and Byun? This think isn't looked on lightly in their culture.
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On December 12 2011 21:37 Slike wrote:This tournament would have a lot more potential if the format was better. We re talking about the winners of the most important major tournaments and arguably best players in the world and they re making them play in the horrible , upset heavy format of BO1 Id like to see them play some more and avoid games like MvP vs Hero or DRG vs Stephano. Also , Im not saying that MC threw the game cause thats just retarded , noone would ever not try his hardest in a broadcasted game and especially at this level BUT having a situation where 1 player lose or win has already advanced and holds the faith of other players' tournament life in his hand is also a pretty bad format...
You know why Stephano didn't advance? Because he didn't win the games he needed to. Anyone trying to blame this on the format, MC, or DRG is delusional. Stephano is the sole reason he did not advance.
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On December 12 2011 21:35 King.Crimson wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 21:31 mcmartini wrote:On December 12 2011 21:29 King.Crimson wrote:
I don't like the situation that transpired in the last couple of games. The loser of the first series of the last two games (Mvp - Stephano) is at a clear disadvantage, considering one of the other two players will be qualified based on the former result, and thus not put in 100% effort into their game. Both sets should have been played simultaneously to prevent this. All these comments about players not putting in 100% are ridiculous, more than anything you think MC would try harder seeing as he is living with Stephano at the moment. What if MC and DRG were clanmates and MC had no relation with Stephano. Do you honestly believe DRG wouldn't get the win from MC in that scenario? The system is flawed.
Stop blaming everyone. Stephano had his games and he missed a chance. Nobody's fault.
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On December 12 2011 21:35 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 21:33 m0ck wrote:
Just a pity MC didn't scout DRGs fourth. He could have taken that out rather than going for the main/natural and things would have been good. Still, great show. Stephano was not out of his dept, and on another day he would have passed the group-stage. Not necessarily. If he stopped to kill the 4th, DRG would've destroyed even more of his tech/production and he might've been worse off since he would've only had his cannon 3rd with no production or tech.
Well, MC went 3->main. Had he gone south instead, the time passed should be about the same
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MC went for Phoenixes. I don't remember when he won a game last time doing so.
It looked fair but I am not completely sure he was trying his best.
But, still, it's Stephano's fault anyway and he has noone to blame except himself. He put himself in this position and is out.
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LOL this is too funny. People claiming MC threw games so Stephano can`t advance (huge accusation) and head-to-head suddenly something to dislike despite it being in almost every tournament. I rarely see complaints for that format. This foreigner bias is too much.
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On December 12 2011 21:35 King.Crimson wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 21:31 mcmartini wrote:On December 12 2011 21:29 King.Crimson wrote:
I don't like the situation that transpired in the last couple of games. The loser of the first series of the last two games (Mvp - Stephano) is at a clear disadvantage, considering one of the other two players will be qualified based on the former result, and thus not put in 100% effort into their game. Both sets should have been played simultaneously to prevent this. All these comments about players not putting in 100% are ridiculous, more than anything you think MC would try harder seeing as he is living with Stephano at the moment. What if MC and DRG were clanmates and MC had no relation with Stephano. Do you honestly believe DRG wouldn't get the win from MC in that scenario? The system is flawed.
There is quite a way from "the system is bad" to "MC lost on purpose so Stephano didn't advance"
In any case, not only was this system public, so the players knew before the matches, it's also customary in the majority of leagues not only in SC2 but in pretty much every sport.
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On December 12 2011 21:37 King.Crimson wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 21:35 darkest44 wrote:On December 12 2011 21:29 King.Crimson wrote:
I don't like the situation that transpired in the last couple of games. The loser of the first series of the last two games (Mvp - Stephano) is at a clear disadvantage, considering one of the other two players will be qualified based on the former result, and thus not put in 100% effort into their game. Both sets should have been played simultaneously to prevent this. You gotta be shitting me. First off, MC always tries, because he has a lot of pride (and arrogance) and he hates losing. DRG simply played better, if MC wasn't trying he wouldn't have stayed in the game so damn long try to weasel his way back in. 2nd then 1000 times more people would be screaming and complaining that not every game is cast or cast on the main stream. GOM just can't win, there will always be some entitled whiner on TL who will find something to whine about when their player doesn't win. All i'm saying is play the god damn games at the same time to prevent problems like this. It's not a huge organizational effort. And it's the same procedure in football in the last week of a national league.
I'm pretty sure that if MC and DRG were teammates such a scenario would be considered by Gom.
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EPT
