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[IPL TAC] Quantic IM vs. Team Liquid (Day 4) - Page 5

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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mordk
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Chile8385 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-08 05:47:58
December 08 2011 05:47 GMT
#81
I think TL has a chance, only because IM never uses their aces on these type of matches. MVP/NesTea/Losira usually don't play at all. IF IM plays like this, TL MIGHT have a chance. May see a Happy allkill though, totally possible.

Maybe hero/zenio can take some games, but as soon as IM sees them they're bringing their big guns to take them out, while foreigners in TL are probably gonna die just as fast as the rest of the foreigners in this competition.

Qaatar
Profile Joined January 2011
1409 Posts
December 08 2011 06:05 GMT
#82
On December 08 2011 14:44 Talin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2011 14:15 Qaatar wrote:
On December 08 2011 12:19 Talin wrote:
On December 08 2011 10:07 aviator116 wrote:
yeah, if MVP or Nestea come out its going to be pretty much over for TL. hopefully they don't, and we'll actually see some really good games, but idk if hero can reverse all-kill against a group that has Losira and Happy...

oh yeah this shit made me laugh
On December 08 2011 04:13 MuK_x wrote:
On December 08 2011 04:08 SniXSniPe wrote:
On December 08 2011 04:04 MuK_x wrote:
On December 08 2011 03:53 JustPassingBy wrote:
Depends mainly, if not only, on which players of IM we will see in action.
Would be surprised if QxG could pull a win against liquid on their own and
I would be surprised if liquid stands a change against IM.

what?

TL has a really decent roster.I mean they has a chance against every sc2 team in the world.

2 decent Korean
Gorilla terran
Manner zerg
King of the Drones
Insanely good sense of fashion
ChillToss
and a Banjo

how can you say this guys not stands a chance against IM?


MVP, NesTea, Losira, Happy?




So what?

HayprO beat NesTea at providence and almost beat MVP.

If you think NesTea and LosirA problem for TL,you must watch HerO's PvZ games or Zenio ZvZ games.

Happy? hehe give him Ret. Jinro has really good TvT as well. Sheth ZvT is improved a lot(Sheth vs PuMa,must watch games).

and MVP? Ret wants Terran blood.

ALMOST beat MVP doesn't mean beating MVP LOL.


Actually in that case it pretty much does. HayprO lost two won games by one single decision each. That is really not much of a difference that you can fall back upon, fact is mvp got lucky as hell.

Anyway, TL managed to have quite even series vs SlayerS, and SlayerS is more committed and prepares for these leagues much better than IM. IM even neglects GSTL and their players have lost many times in online matches too.


I have no clue why we're arguing about MVP anyways, since the possibility of him actually playing is pretty small.

Yes, anyone can beat anyone in SC2. Doesn't mean that we should readily assume the possibility of such things occuring on even a semi-regular basis, as the previous poster who instigated this entire argument insinuates. Fact remains, the average level of skill that MVP displays in meaningful matches is far beyond the average level of skill displayed by Haypro. That's what people should be basing their judgments on, not the one day (or weekend, rather, as even MVP's 2-0 against Losira was extremely shaky) where Haypro played about to his utmost skill level, and MVP was below average in his TvZ.


Obviously they're unlikely to come out, but your general argumentation is flawed anyway.

The players don't play games with their "average level of skill in meaningful matches displayed over a long period of time". They play their games with motivation, preparation and level of form that they show up with on that ONE specific day - and that is far from predictable for any player at this point, especially when it isn't a premier tournament.

You should never base your predictions around someone's average results and perceived level of skill, because that doesn't take context and situation into account, which means you're ignoring relevant information. These team leagues especially are all about preparation (which is why Slayers wins so much, because they're an organized team and take it seriously). The level of play that mvp and NesTea show in GSLs is almost completely irrelevant here.


Okay, we have different definitions of "average level of skill." Mine also includes relevant contextual information, and only recent form. Not "over a long period of time." Same argument still applies to the MVP/Haypro case. Yes, MVP appeared to not have a great TvZ at MLG, but none of us knew what Haypro's form was at the time, and most people would have readily assumed that even with MVP's C game in his TvZ, it should still be good enough to beat Haypro. And, to tie into "average level of skill" in this case, MVP is known to be extremely consistent, and Haypro is known to not be consistent at all. Thus, "average level of skill" is extremely pertinent to players such as Haypro and MVP.

Note, this is not "perceived," as I actually study MVP's replays, and have seen Haypro's as well. I'm assuming it also includes context and situations that we, as viewers, know about. For example, perhaps DRG lost to Naniwa at MLG due to his food poisoning from Taco Bell, but none of us knew about that incident during the time of the games. Thus, all we saw was DRG playing like shit. Another example would be NesTea's recent form - I certainly wasn't expecting him to do well at MLG at all. All of these things tie into what I define as "average level of skill," because I'm assuming that recent form and player condition are inherent in the practical definition of skill. Skill as defined by anything else is meaningless, since theoretical maximums from a player practicing at home in his underwear are never seen by the viewers, except for on player streams that are irrelevant to tournament success.

Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-08 06:11:00
December 08 2011 06:10 GMT
#83
On December 08 2011 12:19 Talin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2011 10:07 aviator116 wrote:
yeah, if MVP or Nestea come out its going to be pretty much over for TL. hopefully they don't, and we'll actually see some really good games, but idk if hero can reverse all-kill against a group that has Losira and Happy...

oh yeah this shit made me laugh
On December 08 2011 04:13 MuK_x wrote:
On December 08 2011 04:08 SniXSniPe wrote:
On December 08 2011 04:04 MuK_x wrote:
On December 08 2011 03:53 JustPassingBy wrote:
Depends mainly, if not only, on which players of IM we will see in action.
Would be surprised if QxG could pull a win against liquid on their own and
I would be surprised if liquid stands a change against IM.

what?

TL has a really decent roster.I mean they has a chance against every sc2 team in the world.

2 decent Korean
Gorilla terran
Manner zerg
King of the Drones
Insanely good sense of fashion
ChillToss
and a Banjo

how can you say this guys not stands a chance against IM?


MVP, NesTea, Losira, Happy?




So what?

HayprO beat NesTea at providence and almost beat MVP.

If you think NesTea and LosirA problem for TL,you must watch HerO's PvZ games or Zenio ZvZ games.

Happy? hehe give him Ret. Jinro has really good TvT as well. Sheth ZvT is improved a lot(Sheth vs PuMa,must watch games).

and MVP? Ret wants Terran blood.

ALMOST beat MVP doesn't mean beating MVP LOL.


Actually in that case it pretty much does. HayprO lost two won games by one single decision each. That is really not much of a difference that you can fall back upon, fact is mvp got lucky as hell.

Anyway, TL managed to have quite even series vs SlayerS, and SlayerS is more committed and prepares for these leagues much better than IM. IM even neglects GSTL and their players have lost many times in online matches too.


Liquid did not do terribly against Slayers, but they played the B team. It was a decent performance, but when Slayers brought out the big(ger) guns the next week against Mouz and the score was the same, it made Liquid look bad. (Of course subsequent teams helped redeem Liquid's image.)

Basically what I am saying is that even without Nestea and MVP, QIM is still such a stacked team compared to Liquid. Haypro played phenomenally at Providence, but he lacked the kill-instinct that many Koreans have: That is when to recognize weakness and finish the game. Haypro could have beaten MVP after clearing the first push in Game 3, but he did not have the gamesense to do so, instead continued to drone up even though his worker count was nearing 100 (possibly even over) and let MVP get back into the game. Haypro definitely showed his skill, but he also revealed deficiencies in his gamesense in that match (This same problem can be said about Ret.)

TL is just outmatched. They are great guys and everything, but personality alone will not win games. The game sense is not as acute as many of the Koreans.
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
JustPassingBy
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
10776 Posts
December 08 2011 06:40 GMT
#84
jinro had a really turtly style in the esv with defensive planetary fortresses even before he was maxed out.
I am eager to see how that strategy works out against a very good player!
Leifish
Profile Joined July 2011
851 Posts
December 08 2011 07:01 GMT
#85
Team Liquid seriously needs to pick up some Terran players...

Maybe they'll team steal Mvp after this.
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
December 08 2011 07:06 GMT
#86
GL to both teams, have to root for MVP though.
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
NipponBanzai
Profile Joined September 2011
Canada518 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-08 07:32:21
December 08 2011 07:29 GMT
#87
On December 08 2011 15:05 Qaatar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 08 2011 14:44 Talin wrote:
On December 08 2011 14:15 Qaatar wrote:
On December 08 2011 12:19 Talin wrote:
On December 08 2011 10:07 aviator116 wrote:
yeah, if MVP or Nestea come out its going to be pretty much over for TL. hopefully they don't, and we'll actually see some really good games, but idk if hero can reverse all-kill against a group that has Losira and Happy...

oh yeah this shit made me laugh
On December 08 2011 04:13 MuK_x wrote:
On December 08 2011 04:08 SniXSniPe wrote:
On December 08 2011 04:04 MuK_x wrote:
On December 08 2011 03:53 JustPassingBy wrote:
Depends mainly, if not only, on which players of IM we will see in action.
Would be surprised if QxG could pull a win against liquid on their own and
I would be surprised if liquid stands a change against IM.

what?

TL has a really decent roster.I mean they has a chance against every sc2 team in the world.

2 decent Korean
Gorilla terran
Manner zerg
King of the Drones
Insanely good sense of fashion
ChillToss
and a Banjo

how can you say this guys not stands a chance against IM?


MVP, NesTea, Losira, Happy?




So what?

HayprO beat NesTea at providence and almost beat MVP.

If you think NesTea and LosirA problem for TL,you must watch HerO's PvZ games or Zenio ZvZ games.

Happy? hehe give him Ret. Jinro has really good TvT as well. Sheth ZvT is improved a lot(Sheth vs PuMa,must watch games).

and MVP? Ret wants Terran blood.

ALMOST beat MVP doesn't mean beating MVP LOL.


Actually in that case it pretty much does. HayprO lost two won games by one single decision each. That is really not much of a difference that you can fall back upon, fact is mvp got lucky as hell.

Anyway, TL managed to have quite even series vs SlayerS, and SlayerS is more committed and prepares for these leagues much better than IM. IM even neglects GSTL and their players have lost many times in online matches too.


I have no clue why we're arguing about MVP anyways, since the possibility of him actually playing is pretty small.

Yes, anyone can beat anyone in SC2. Doesn't mean that we should readily assume the possibility of such things occuring on even a semi-regular basis, as the previous poster who instigated this entire argument insinuates. Fact remains, the average level of skill that MVP displays in meaningful matches is far beyond the average level of skill displayed by Haypro. That's what people should be basing their judgments on, not the one day (or weekend, rather, as even MVP's 2-0 against Losira was extremely shaky) where Haypro played about to his utmost skill level, and MVP was below average in his TvZ.


Obviously they're unlikely to come out, but your general argumentation is flawed anyway.

The players don't play games with their "average level of skill in meaningful matches displayed over a long period of time". They play their games with motivation, preparation and level of form that they show up with on that ONE specific day - and that is far from predictable for any player at this point, especially when it isn't a premier tournament.

You should never base your predictions around someone's average results and perceived level of skill, because that doesn't take context and situation into account, which means you're ignoring relevant information. These team leagues especially are all about preparation (which is why Slayers wins so much, because they're an organized team and take it seriously). The level of play that mvp and NesTea show in GSLs is almost completely irrelevant here.


Okay, we have different definitions of "average level of skill." Mine also includes relevant contextual information, and only recent form. Not "over a long period of time." Same argument still applies to the MVP/Haypro case. Yes, MVP appeared to not have a great TvZ at MLG, but none of us knew what Haypro's form was at the time, and most people would have readily assumed that even with MVP's C game in his TvZ, it should still be good enough to beat Haypro. And, to tie into "average level of skill" in this case, MVP is known to be extremely consistent, and Haypro is known to not be consistent at all. Thus, "average level of skill" is extremely pertinent to players such as Haypro and MVP.

Note, this is not "perceived," as I actually study MVP's replays, and have seen Haypro's as well. I'm assuming it also includes context and situations that we, as viewers, know about. For example, perhaps DRG lost to Naniwa at MLG due to his food poisoning from Taco Bell, but none of us knew about that incident during the time of the games. Thus, all we saw was DRG playing like shit. Another example would be NesTea's recent form - I certainly wasn't expecting him to do well at MLG at all. All of these things tie into what I define as "average level of skill," because I'm assuming that recent form and player condition are inherent in the practical definition of skill. Skill as defined by anything else is meaningless, since theoretical maximums from a player practicing at home in his underwear are never seen by the viewers, except for on player streams that are irrelevant to tournament success.



Haypro has a really good tournament and mvp and nestea have a bad tournament and all of a sudden, haypro is some sort of gosu who could win Code S if he only got around to doing it. Lets completely ignore every other tournament result ever. It's actually madness. Haypro is good. Just because he did well against nestea and mvp in 1 series doesn't mean he's better.
firehand101
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3152 Posts
December 08 2011 07:54 GMT
#88
Wow such a small roster for TL compared to IM, they will be short of options, and IM will easily be able to study their main players
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
Battousai13
Profile Joined September 2010
United States638 Posts
December 08 2011 08:22 GMT
#89
If hayprO is in form like he was at Providence, I have high confidence in Liquid. As many have stated, Nestea and Mvp benefit the most from preparation. I feel like many of the Liquid players are much better thinking on their feet (HerO and TLO come to mind). I think the creativity in their play will be their biggest advantage against QIM.

All that being said though, I'm hoping for the Banjo to all-kill! :D
Qaatar
Profile Joined January 2011
1409 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-08 08:29:08
December 08 2011 08:27 GMT
#90
On December 08 2011 17:22 Battousai13 wrote:
If hayprO is in form like he was at Providence, I have high confidence in Liquid. As many have stated, Nestea and Mvp benefit the most from preparation. I feel like many of the Liquid players are much better thinking on their feet (HerO and TLO come to mind). I think the creativity in their play will be their biggest advantage against QIM.

All that being said though, I'm hoping for the Banjo to all-kill! :D


NesTea, I'm not sure...but MVP? You have to be kidding me. MVP went 26-5 at Providence, won Anaheim, and just dominated his WCG group. None of those formats allow for preparation. MVP also reportedly was sick on Day 2.

Edit: Throw Blizzcon in there as well.
Tommylew
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
Wales2717 Posts
December 08 2011 11:07 GMT
#91
think if QIM B team plays then Liquid has a chance otherwise only Zenio and Hero have a chance of taking games.

Hoepfully provenw rong come on Liquid:D Heart Liquid, Brain QIM :D
Live and Let Die!
Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
December 08 2011 11:13 GMT
#92
IM has no chance.

First page said it best:

On December 08 2011 03:46 MuK_x wrote:
QIM? who?

TL 5-0 ezpz.

banjo all kill QIM's like in MLG.

Bora Pain minha porra!
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
December 08 2011 18:41 GMT
#93
On December 08 2011 20:13 Sbrubbles wrote:
IM has no chance.

First page said it best:

Show nested quote +
On December 08 2011 03:46 MuK_x wrote:
QIM? who?

TL 5-0 ezpz.

banjo all kill QIM's like in MLG.



+1 sarcasm points for you my good sir.
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States46547 Posts
December 08 2011 18:54 GMT
#94
Poor TL

I expect them to do pretty well though. Definitely one of the stronger foreign teams

5-3 QIM imo.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Serinox
Profile Joined August 2011
Germany5224 Posts
December 08 2011 19:42 GMT
#95
5-2 or 5-4 for QIM or 5-4 for Liquid, depends on how much IM players are playing. Without them (i don't think so), Liquid would win 5-1...
Flossy
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States870 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-12-08 21:52:30
December 08 2011 21:51 GMT
#96
TL will merge into the super horse which has the skill of Flash times six against the easiest computer.
Prediction 5-0 TL
Or QXC will jump in for Liquid. :D
etternaonline.com
Zzoram
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada7115 Posts
December 08 2011 22:25 GMT
#97
Is Naniwa on the roster for QxG now?
Brotatolol
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1742 Posts
December 08 2011 22:27 GMT
#98
I'll be watching - go TL!
IGNProLeague
Profile Joined April 2011
1184 Posts
December 08 2011 22:30 GMT
#99
On December 09 2011 07:25 Zzoram wrote:
Is Naniwa on the roster for QxG now?

Sure, why not? =P
maznaryk
Profile Joined August 2011
United Kingdom11 Posts
December 08 2011 22:41 GMT
#100
This doesn't show up on the calender for me, is it because there is already an IPL event going on (the rebroadcast)?
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