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Here we go again. This weekend is about good games and good fun. Don't rain on that parade. Play nice guys. Here's the very standard and friendly:
- NO Balance Whine.
- NO Player Bashing.
- NO Caster Bashing.
- NO BM whatsoever.
Breaking these rules (from pg 166 forward) will be met with severe punishment. |
The way I see it is that the series nani and leenock played had very little to do with their individual skill at SC2. It was a mind game, Naniwa didn't think Leenock would keep all-inning and every time he did it nani probably thought it was even less likely that he would do it again. Of course mind games are extremely important in high pressure matches, so Leenock deserved to win.
On November 22 2011 05:22 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 04:33 Sneakyz wrote:On November 22 2011 03:26 chosenkerrigan wrote:
I cannot believe some of you guys. Leenock had a much tougher road to the final and beat naniwa 4-1 in his worst matchup zvp. No matter the games were cheesy or not, you know there's something wrong with Naniwa if he gets 4-1ed using the same strategy again and again and again. But that's how you play in a tournament, you stick to what you practiced. In this case, Naniwa had prepared this build which he obviously thought would be safe against almost everything, including 7rr, but wasn't, since Leenock denied the double zealot scout after the first failed roach rush. So he could either use a less refined/improvised build to be safe vs 7rr but worse against everything else, or keep using the same build for a higher chance to win in all other situations. Obviously he didn't think Leenock would actually use the 7rr 3(?) times and roach pressure once, so he kept using his practiced build and lost. There is a word for only doing 1 strategy/build, 1trick pony. If you play in a tournament you should at least have a couple builds ready so you are unpredictable and can switch builds when you deem necessary.
See this is what I mean. I don't think the reason he kept FFE-ing wasn't that he couldn't use any other build, he just didn't think Leenock would keep doing the same thing.
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On November 22 2011 05:22 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 04:33 Sneakyz wrote:On November 22 2011 03:26 chosenkerrigan wrote:
I cannot believe some of you guys. Leenock had a much tougher road to the final and beat naniwa 4-1 in his worst matchup zvp. No matter the games were cheesy or not, you know there's something wrong with Naniwa if he gets 4-1ed using the same strategy again and again and again. But that's how you play in a tournament, you stick to what you practiced. In this case, Naniwa had prepared this build which he obviously thought would be safe against almost everything, including 7rr, but wasn't, since Leenock denied the double zealot scout after the first failed roach rush. So he could either use a less refined/improvised build to be safe vs 7rr but worse against everything else, or keep using the same build for a higher chance to win in all other situations. Obviously he didn't think Leenock would actually use the 7rr 3(?) times and roach pressure once, so he kept using his practiced build and lost. There is a word for only doing 1 strategy/build, 1trick pony. If you play in a tournament you should at least have a couple builds ready so you are unpredictable and can switch builds when you deem necessary.
Uh the problem wasn't exactly his builds. I'm not sure we even got to see those? It was just a very initial opening that naniwa had deemed safe, probably even vs roach aggression. Whatever strategies he had planned out for those games, they would probably have looked different than the desperate attempts at climbing back into a decent position we saw vs a zerg that wouldn't give him that opportunity.
The two zealots poking around the map would easily have sufficed in a ladder situation or in a situation where leenock didn't know exactly how naniwa would open prior to the series even beginning. I for one certainly hope that naniwa keeps trying to figure out a way to enter a PvZ without giving an economic advantage to the zerg. I remember the way ffe's and nexus first builds resulted in a thousand hydra/ling busts in bw at first, but eventually protoss' figured out intricate timings and were able to safely fe.
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Naniwa wasn't sending two zealots out to scout though. He was sending one zealot at a time out against speedlings. Naniwa scouted Leenock going gas/pool first also.
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On November 22 2011 05:39 BWVanguard wrote:
Naniwa wasn't sending two zealots out to scout though. He was sending one zealot at a time out against speedlings. Naniwa scouted Leenock going gas/pool first also.
That's not true? Every pvz where he wouldn't scout a hatch first I saw him make a zealot, wait with it right next to the wall and then send it out about a second before the other zealot popped, and every time he did it vs 7rr it seemed to be at the exact right timing for spotting the roaches in time, only leenock caught up on this after shakuras and hid his roaches.
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On November 22 2011 05:39 BWVanguard wrote:
Naniwa wasn't sending two zealots out to scout though. He was sending one zealot at a time out against speedlings. Naniwa scouted Leenock going gas/pool first also.
Gas pool first was meant to deal with the pylon block. It wasn't early pool, something like 13 gas 14 pool. In at least two of the games, he brought the drone out to fake the hatch with the 4 lings to kill the probe. He then made sure to try to take the Xelnaga and at least to scout the first zealot.
For people saying he should have waited to send two out, two zealots are great and all, but they last like 2 shots from 7 roaches. The first zealot was supposed to let him scout if he needed the cannons or not.
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So, did the replay pack got released already ? I really want to check the leenock matchs
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On November 22 2011 05:49 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:39 BWVanguard wrote:
Naniwa wasn't sending two zealots out to scout though. He was sending one zealot at a time out against speedlings. Naniwa scouted Leenock going gas/pool first also. That's not true? Every pvz where he wouldn't scout a hatch first I saw him make a zealot, wait with it right next to the wall and then send it out about a second before the other zealot popped, and every time he did it vs 7rr it seemed to be at the exact right timing for spotting the roaches in time, only leenock caught up on this after shakuras and hid his roaches.
Just watched the games again. Game 4 for example, Naniwa scouted gas first for Leenock, saw his four lings, and then sent his zealot out right away with at least 4 speedlings on the map. He didn't wait for his second one.
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On November 22 2011 06:08 BWVanguard wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 05:49 hifriend wrote:On November 22 2011 05:39 BWVanguard wrote:
Naniwa wasn't sending two zealots out to scout though. He was sending one zealot at a time out against speedlings. Naniwa scouted Leenock going gas/pool first also. That's not true? Every pvz where he wouldn't scout a hatch first I saw him make a zealot, wait with it right next to the wall and then send it out about a second before the other zealot popped, and every time he did it vs 7rr it seemed to be at the exact right timing for spotting the roaches in time, only leenock caught up on this after shakuras and hid his roaches. Just watched the games again. Game 4 for example, Naniwa scouted gas first for Leenock, saw his four lings, and then sent his zealot out right away with at least 4 speedlings on the map. He didn't wait for his second one.
That iis correct but it wouldn't have mattered if he did since he wouldn't see the roaches either way.
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Yes, it wouldn't have mattered. Leenock made the mistake the first game of letting Naniwa see his roaches, and adjusted properly. Not to mention Leenock knew exactly what Naniwa was doing. Tastosis pretty much said it best. Not only did they think Leenock might roach rush, but that he "should".
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On November 22 2011 05:22 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2011 04:33 Sneakyz wrote:On November 22 2011 03:26 chosenkerrigan wrote:
I cannot believe some of you guys. Leenock had a much tougher road to the final and beat naniwa 4-1 in his worst matchup zvp. No matter the games were cheesy or not, you know there's something wrong with Naniwa if he gets 4-1ed using the same strategy again and again and again. But that's how you play in a tournament, you stick to what you practiced. In this case, Naniwa had prepared this build which he obviously thought would be safe against almost everything, including 7rr, but wasn't, since Leenock denied the double zealot scout after the first failed roach rush. So he could either use a less refined/improvised build to be safe vs 7rr but worse against everything else, or keep using the same build for a higher chance to win in all other situations. Obviously he didn't think Leenock would actually use the 7rr 3(?) times and roach pressure once, so he kept using his practiced build and lost. There is a word for only doing 1 strategy/build, 1trick pony. If you play in a tournament you should at least have a couple builds ready so you are unpredictable and can switch builds when you deem necessary.
Under this format it's very hard to re-adjust your play. Nani had great success with this opening against many great Zerg players. It only reaffirms it's usage.
On the downside, Nani is completely exposed at the same time; however, he's convinced it will hold up against Leenock. If it isn't broken, why fix it mentality. Leenock capitalizes.
In this scenario the MLG format and Nani's success with the opening was his eventual downfall.
For some players it's very hard to adapt their openings on the fly especially when they are as stubborn as Naniwa. Not necessarily a bad trait to have. As I mentioned earlier, KTF_Flash is very similar: Flash would constantly use 14CC openings to gain the upper hand on his opponent. He had great success with it and he still does; however, some players would eventually punish Flash for using it as his main opening.
You see the parallelism?
Thus there is no need to be calling anyone a one trick pony in this case.
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thats really cool to see Leenock take a win, he is an awesome and very talented player! so young but has very good decision making skills and impeccable micro. Very tough path to victory, it was well earned.
Feel sympathy for Naniwa there, a couple of those games were very close where just a slight change in timing or decision could have easily swung things his way. He held on in some extremely tough situations and almost turned the game, also a bit of a strange meta game going on where he used the same build over and over. Maybe he felt that it would have been unexpected to do the same strat again, but the awkward expo position on the last map just made it too tough to cover. grats for making the final anyway, an awesome player who will no doubt do well next time.
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On November 22 2011 06:20 StarStruck wrote:
For some players it's very hard to adapt their openings on the fly especially when they are as stubborn as Naniwa. Not necessarily a bad trait to have. As I mentioned earlier, KTF_Flash is very similar: Flash would constantly use 14CC openings to gain the upper hand on his opponent. He had great success with it and he still does; however, some players would eventually punish Flash for using it as his main opening.
You see the parallelism?
Thus there is no need to be calling anyone a one trick pony in this case.
It has to be said though, after getting all-ined twice while using the same build and losing both times, Flash would have got the message, and would likely have already prepared a follow-up strategy in case his original failed.
MC in particular (no bias, honest  ) is well-known for mixing up his openings vs Zerg: Sometimes 1base Stargate, sometimes FFE (nexus first or otherwise), sometimes 2/3gate expand, sometimes 1gate expand into fast Void Rays. Lately, he has been doing more FFEs but I think this is partly map dependent and partly just a trend in Protoss play.
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where i can see vods? i can see the stream again but that doesnt really help  thx
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On November 22 2011 06:53 Panicc wrote:where i can see vods? i can see the stream again but that doesnt really help thx
ignore this - had a link on TL but the thread got closed
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Since it hasn't been said here, I wanted to say
From Idra's twitter
Didn't skip the match vs haypro, I was in the audience watching huk play and didn't hear the call.
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On November 22 2011 07:01 CeriseCherries wrote:Since it hasn't been said here, I wanted to say From Idra's twitter Show nested quote +Didn't skip the match vs haypro, I was in the audience watching huk play and didn't hear the call.
Oooh, ouch. That must have hurt. He had a pretty good chance of getting $750 there... Good for Haypro, I guess.
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SeaSwift,
I understand what you're trying to say; however, there is very little time to prepare under this format compared to a MSL/OSL/PL. That and the openings Leenock used were primarily to delay and punish any 14 Nexus opening. In other words, Leenock didn't expect to win the game right away unless the other player made a few mistakes. As a result, he had good preparation for the mid and late game too.
Sure, Flash might find himself on the other end of a pure all-in or as I like to call, "Don't want to deal with your greedy steamroller build, SEE YA DON'T WANNA BE YA! tactic."
Early on in Flash's career he would use the 14cc opening all the time. As a result, other players found ways of punishing him for it; thus, Flash would exit the OSL/MSL prematurely. Same can be said when he lost in PL. It was Flash's Achilles Heel. Sometimes he would defend it; other times, not so much. Back then, after losing with 14cc he'd go right back to it. He wanted to make it work and he felt like he could defend it. His mindset: nothing beats my build and if they do, I will try to make it work anyway! :D
It took him a while to find his stride with such openings. Don't get me wrong, he still got good results back then, but he was nowhere near as dominant.
Flash has always been a very stubborn individual, but he deals with those situations much better now.
*
Yes MC definitely does switch up his openings and does nice variations. It's important to keep an opponent on their toes.
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On November 22 2011 07:16 StarStruck wrote:
SeaSwift,
I understand what you're trying to say; however, there is very little time to prepare under this format compared to a MSL/OSL/PL. That and the openings Leenock used were primarily to delay and punish any 14 Nexus opening. In other words, Leenock wouldn't necessarily win the game right away unless the other player made a few mistakes.
Sure, Flash might find himself on the other end of a pure all-in or as I like to call, "Don't want to deal with your greedy steamroller build, SEE YA DON'T WANNA BE YA! tactic."
Early on in Flash's career he would use the 14cc opening all the time. As a result, other players found ways of punishing him for it; thus, Flash would exit the OSL/MSL prematurely. Same can be said when he lost in PL. It was Flash's Achilles Heel. Sometimes he would defend it; other times, not so much. Back then, after losing with 14cc he'd go right back to it. He wanted to make it work and he felt like he could defend it. His mindset: nothing beats my build and if they do, I will try to make it work anyway! :D
It took him a while to find his stride with such openings. Don't get me wrong, he still got good results back then, but he was nowhere near as dominant.
Flash has always been a very stubborn individual, but he deals with those situations much better now.
Ahhhh. Now I understand you - I don't know a great deal about BW, and assumed you were talking about Modern Day "I-devour-BW-souls-even-when-my-wrists-are-falling-apart" Flash (well, not any more, but hey). Was the KTF_ tag significant for it being Flash a while ago? I always thought he was on KT now. Dunno what KTF stands for ^_^
The Flash we have seen from 2010 onwards would definitely not lose 3 times in a row to something as simple as a 1/2base all-in, even given that Naniwa had less time to prepare I do think that stubbornly refusing to change build to something less clearly flawed was a big mistake and one that led to a very one-sided finals.
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On November 22 2011 04:44 Poopi wrote:
Except that the foreigners losses in the first round of code A proove that the gap is still as big...
Stephano won the ESWC where there was only two koreans, same for IdrA with the IEM Guangzhou he didn't had to go through a lot of koreans. HuK has been in korea for one year so he is not really a "foreigner" anymore, training-wise.
There's a really small sample size of foreigners in the first round of code A, which means that really doesn't prove anything. GSL October had 3 foreigners in Code A. Two of them lost, one of them (Sjow) won. Sjow was then knocked out in the 2nd round by Curious, who went on to win Code A without dropping a single game. Is it fair to say Sjow had a chance to go further if he didn't run into Curious? GSL November had only two foreigners in the first round of Code A. Sase lost again, and Naniwa lost to the same person as he did in October.
So what does that prove? It proves that there are 2 individual people who are having trouble in GSL. One of them isn't known as the best of the best in terms of foreigners, and the other seems to have trouble with one guy who he keeps running into. Honestly, if you put pictures of everyone in Code A up and blindly threw darts at them, there's only a small chance you'd manage to hit a foreigner. As you said, ESWC only had 2 Koreans. And the GSL November first round of Code A only had 2 foreigners. So why do you see one of them as proof and make excuses for the other one?
As for HuK being considered a Korean, well, I'm kind of getting tired of this line of thinking. You can pick basically any international sport and find someone from one country who is training in the other country. Yet when world events occur these people are still holding their original countries flag. So why is this seen any differently?
Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to imply that foreigners are stomping Koreans now. MLG actually showed to me how the top foreigners can compete with the top Koreans, though the depth of the Korean teams are still staggeringly powerful (4 foreigners in the top 8 is FANTASTIC, but spots 9-16 are filled with 5 Koreans and 3 foreigners who never won a single match in the tournament). I just feel that the results make me very hopeful that the future of Starcraft 2 is going to be more than just a 1 country show. It's slowly starting to take off in other countries, and this is fantastic for anyone who cares at all about eSports.
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EPT
