EPTOn November 22 2011 04:35 SeaSwift wrote:
Technically, Leenock is only 15 in Western terms (16 in Korea).
Technically, Leenock is only 15 in Western terms (16 in Korea).
April 1, 1995.
He is 16 in western terms (17 in Korea).
MLG Providence Day 3 Live Report Thread - Page 886
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Here we go again. This weekend is about good games and good fun. Don't rain on that parade. Play nice guys. Here's the very standard and friendly: - NO Balance Whine. - NO Player Bashing. - NO Caster Bashing. - NO BM whatsoever. Breaking these rules (from pg 166 forward) will be met with severe punishment. | ||
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Trsjnica
United States477 Posts
April 1, 1995. He is 16 in western terms (17 in Korea). | ||
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Jnai
United States442 Posts
On November 22 2011 03:36 Gin-san wrote: The best MLG Crowd moment in my opinion: Still getting goosebumps from it  I started that chant!!! =) (obviously not the TLO one, the "HAY PRO (clapclap)" one ) | ||
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Sneakyz
Sweden2361 Posts
On November 22 2011 04:37 JinDesu wrote: Well yeah, that's fine. Just don't call out Leenock as "cheesy" if the best response to someone doing the same build 4 times ends up being the same cheese. I wouldn't say Leenock is a cheesy player but that was certainly a cheesy series. It was definitely the most intelligent way to play though so why wouldn't he. | ||
Poopi
France12906 Posts
On November 22 2011 04:26 Azarkon wrote: Around the time of the GSL World Cup, any foreigner beating Nestea or MVP in a non-mirror match without a latency advantage was virtually unthinkable. Dimaga's victory against Nestea was downplayed because "ZvZ is a coin flip." Back then, HuK beating MC in a PvP was big news. A number of things have changed since the first MLG that invited Koreans, when they took the top spots and continued to do so for the next few MLGs. The most important is the rise (or resurgence, in some cases) of several foreigner champions - HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Sen, Naniwa, Thorzain, and Mana. We've seen more of the first three than the last four because of tournament attendance (HuK and IdrA attends nearly everything), but they've all posted solid results against top Koreans that resulted in foreigners taking most of the large foreigner tournaments since IEM Guangzhou, when IdrA kicked off the trend: IEM Guangzhou (IdrA) IPL 3 (Stephano) IEM New York (DRG) ESWC (Stephano) Blizzcon Invitational (MVP) MLG Orlando (HuK) Sure, there were foreigner victories before this - but it was mostly via HuK or Naniwa defeating MC in PvPs, or online results like in the TSL 3. And through it all, few people thought that the Koreans involved were the best of the best, since "MC was in a slump" and "Nestea and MVP didn't attend." For this reason, Naniwa beating MVP and Nestea (twice), along with Haypro going 2-1 against Nestea and 1-2 against MVP, is a pretty big deal. If Naniwa had won Providence, that would've sealed it in terms of foreigner results this year, and made a statement about the closing gap between top foreigners and top Koreans. But of course, Leenock denied him and the foreigner community that opportunity. Even so, I think the statement can still be made. Of course, this doesn't mean the amateur/semi-pro community in NA/EU/SEA, beneath the top pros, have gotten any better. Here, I feel that Koreans are still way ahead. The average NA/EU/SEA player, including the average pro in these regions, hasn't gained much ground. Except that the foreigners losses in the first round of code A proove that the gap is still as big... Stephano won the ESWC where there was only two koreans, same for IdrA with the IEM Guangzhou he didn't had to go through a lot of koreans. HuK has been in korea for one year so he is not really a "foreigner" anymore, training-wise. | ||
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JinDesu
United States3990 Posts
On November 22 2011 04:40 Lore-Fighting wrote: Is Leenock as good as Naniwa? Well, probably not in the late game. Leenock wanted nothing to do with Naniwa's late game so used strategies that would force a lot of confrontation early. Basically Leenock used great mechanics and control with gold league strats. Turns out, roaches are pretty good. I dunno if you were at the event, but I was watching Leenock's screen through the games he played on the big screen, and he is impeccable with his multitasking, injects, and production. To say he used strategies to force a lot of confrontations early disregards the fact that Naniwa's 17 nexus with pylon block puts a zerg way too far behind on some of those maps that have rocks blocking the third. And his 2 base push comes at a pretty good timing to hit a zerg who does do an early third, especially with the sentry blocks. Again - if you watched his screen as he played, you'll see that he is one hell of a macro player. | ||
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Trsjnica
United States477 Posts
On November 22 2011 04:40 Lore-Fighting wrote: Is Leenock as good as Naniwa? Well, probably not in the late game. Leenock wanted nothing to do with Naniwa's late game so used strategies that would force a lot of confrontation early. Basically Leenock used great mechanics and control with gold league strats. Turns out, roaches are pretty good. This is just pure Leenock hate. Naniwa did Forge fast expand 5 games in a row. FFE is weakest early on, as Protoss sacrifices early units for big economy, which kicks in mid- to late-game. Leenock saw this, and knew he had to attack. Roaches counter Forge fast expand. So Leenock built roaches. Also, Leenock hardly used the same build--he went 6 pool one game for goodness sake. Meanwhile, Naniwa kept going FFE despite being down 3-1. Leenock saw what Naniwa did, built units that counter it, and won the games. | ||
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MasterKush
United Kingdom568 Posts
MVP must be sitting there thinking "What will it take for them to cheer ME on like that!?" Guy never gets any props, as if being the best Terran in the world is easy and not deserving of any praise. -_- As much as it made me happy to see Haypro finally getting some fan support, I was equally depressed for MVP  | ||
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Hubris
United States113 Posts
On November 22 2011 04:40 Lore-Fighting wrote: Is Leenock as good as Naniwa? Well, probably not in the late game. Leenock wanted nothing to do with Naniwa's late game so used strategies that would force a lot of confrontation early. Basically Leenock used great mechanics and control with gold league strats. Turns out, roaches are pretty good. uhh... the ignorance here is astounding. Leenock is top 8 code S. His macro is nearly perfect. Did you see the game vs MVP on dual sight? Immaculate! He fought fire with fire. Naniwa was relying on the SAME strat to work every time. The fact that Leenock beat this, 4 times to one, when Naniwa had every advantage in terms of rest and number of games shows leenock is far better. Naniwa is not a late game player BTW, I think he only attempted a third a couple times. He's a 2 base all in style. | ||
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Trsjnica
United States477 Posts
On November 22 2011 04:46 MasterKush wrote: Haypro had a great run and definitely deserved that, but... MVP must be sitting there thinking "What will it take for them to cheer ME on like that!?" Guy never gets any props, as if being the best Terran in the world is easy and not deserving of any praise. -_- As much as it made me happy to see Haypro finally getting some fan support, I was equally depressed for MVP MVP suffers from the fact that he is the best at a race that is quite dominant (at least in Korea). I think he would be a lot more popular if Terrans were seen as an underdog. | ||
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Poopi
France12906 Posts
On November 22 2011 04:46 MasterKush wrote: Haypro had a great run and definitely deserved that, but... MVP must be sitting there thinking "What will it take for them to cheer ME on like that!?" Guy never gets any props, as if being the best Terran in the world is easy and not deserving of any praise. -_- As much as it made me happy to see Haypro finally getting some fan support, I was equally depressed for MVP I heard that in korea since there were a lot of terrans in code S and Mvp was the best of them all, they didn't cheer for him. Once they realize that this race needs a hero once again, he will be cheered on hardcore edit : " Is Leenock as good as Naniwa? Well, probably not in the late game. Leenock wanted nothing to do with Naniwa's late game so used strategies that would force a lot of confrontation early. Basically Leenock used great mechanics and control with gold league strats. Turns out, roaches are pretty good." that means that NaNiwa is not good enough to go past early game against Leenock, not that Leenock's late game is not good enough ^^ | ||
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jj33
802 Posts
On November 22 2011 04:40 Lore-Fighting wrote: Is Leenock as good as Naniwa? Well, probably not in the late game. Leenock wanted nothing to do with Naniwa's late game so used strategies that would force a lot of confrontation early. Basically Leenock used great mechanics and control with gold league strats. Turns out, roaches are pretty good. gold league strats huh? Why don't you pull it off then? Leenock exploited a weakness, pros are cut throat. They are playing for money. Leenock's macro is more than a match for naniwa's. I swear people here seem to want pros to just not do any type of aggression for 15 minutes and just macro then collide with 200 food armies and call it epic. When there's money on the line, anything goes. | ||
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aycheff
United States329 Posts
On November 22 2011 04:46 MasterKush wrote: Haypro had a great run and definitely deserved that, but... MVP must be sitting there thinking "What will it take for them to cheer ME on like that!?" Guy never gets any props, as if being the best Terran in the world is easy and not deserving of any praise. -_- As much as it made me happy to see Haypro finally getting some fan support, I was equally depressed for MVP He got PLENTY of cheers are Blizzcon. | ||
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
Leenock used a Roach Rush 4(?) times. Then Naniwa decides to go with the same build every game, 1 cannon, and that cannon on Xel Naga didn't cover anythin, it covered the cyber core and the gateway at best. It didn't cover the forge(Which he lost, twice) or the Nexus. btw HAYPRO HWAITING LOL, | ||
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Jnai
United States442 Posts
But, you know, it was fucking HAYPRO with a chance to defeat the best player in the world. If you don't rally behind him in that situation you are crazy. | ||
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Hubris
United States113 Posts
On November 22 2011 04:47 Trsjnica wrote: MVP suffers from the fact that he is the best at a race that is quite dominant (at least in Korea). I think he would be a lot more popular if Terrans were seen as an underdog. MVP is regarded as one of the best players of all time. And he is. People don't cheer for him because they think he's the person to beat. People like rooting for underdogs. As you have said. | ||
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babylon
8765 Posts
On November 22 2011 04:46 MasterKush wrote: Haypro had a great run and definitely deserved that, but... MVP must be sitting there thinking "What will it take for them to cheer ME on like that!?" Guy never gets any props, as if being the best Terran in the world is easy and not deserving of any praise. -_- As much as it made me happy to see Haypro finally getting some fan support, I was equally depressed for MVP Are you kidding me? He gets plenty of props. If you poll all of TL, I'm pretty sure most people even vaguely in touch with SC2 will say he's the best player in the world. But being the best player doesn't mean that you should have the most fans. Just look at Flash; best player, no question, but he has fewer fans than Jaedong, Bisu, etc. That's just how it goes; if you want more fans, you'll have to work for them. IM in general is pretty insular as a team and doesn't interact with the community much, if at all; hopefully Quantic will help them out on that front, but you can't play well and just expect to have the biggest fan base, especially if your style is as standard (and arguably as boring*) as MVP's. All this without mentioning the underdog factor. *Not saying that I find him boring -- I don't -- but a lot of people, for instance, would much prefer to watch MKP and MMA over MVP any day of the week. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On November 22 2011 00:37 perestain wrote: Sorry, but I dont agree. The games were over the moment when 7 roaches arrived at naniwas natural and he had no cannons up because he failed to scout. The micro that followed was cute at times but not critical to the outcome whatsoever. Leenock didn't need exceptional micro against naniwa. He realized he just had to 7RR. Quite the elegant solution given how fatigued he must have been after his whole tournament run. The concept was exciting, but not the actual gameplay. You see the game in absolutes like IdrA. I don't. There are a lot of gray areas. I recommend you watch the series again. Leenock used several different variations of roach aggression. It did not play out the same way. Back on the subject of absolutes, Going in with that mindset you already lost the battle. IdrA is the perfect example of this as time and time again we'll see him leave a game rather than play out the rest of the match. Why? Because he doesn't think the other player will make any sort of mistake and IdrA doesn't force his hand to allow his opponent to make one. Absolutes, the real burden to making any sort of a comeback when human error happens all the time especially when you don't have all the information right in front of you. You have to change the way you look and approach the game to get more out of it. Hell, you might become a better player as a result. With that said, There were a lot of interesting things Naniwa and Leenock did in the series, i.e. Naniwa blocking the natural expansion and blocking the 2nd nat with 2 pylons to delay any expo in order to make sure Leenock couldn't get more ahead. That is but one example. Leenock's use of early roaches were to dictate the play and punish Nani's 14 Nexuses. That's where we saw him branch out with baneling drops, to infestor/mutalisk play to keep Nani guessing and in his base. There was plenty more to Leenock's arsenal, so no I don't agree with your assessment. By game 4 Naniwa was drained and he made unforced errors. He didn't have much fight left in him and that's why we never got to see any other units from Lee. It became a walkover for Leenock. Nani was already defeated. In the Korean Leagues, maybe Nani would have more time to make adjustments as they can look at the replays during the break whereas the MLG really doesn't give you a whole lot of time to recover or map out what you want to do. Naniwa stuck to what he knew and worked up until this point. Unfortunately for him, Leenock had strategies to punish him for it. | ||
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CursedRich
United Kingdom737 Posts
On November 21 2011 11:09 Belisarius wrote: lol. Leenock actually is destroying TL. I'm impressed. This puts Nani in an interesting position. An awful, awful lot of people are going to claim he doesn't deserve the code S he gets from this. The Nestea drama, getting bounced from code A a billion times, and his compete failure to adapt in the final games there... none of that looks good. I think he has one shot, and one shot only when he walks into code S. If he proves himself, he deserves it. If he's bounced again, I think that's just about it for him in the court of public opinion, especially to the netizens. What? as far as Im concerned everything that Naniwa did over the 3 day shows he belongs at the top level so therefore in GSL | ||
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jj33
802 Posts
On November 22 2011 04:55 StarStruck wrote: You see the game in absolutes like IdrA. I don't. There are a lot of gray areas. I recommend you watch the series again. Leenock used several different variations of roach aggression. It did not play out the same way. Back on the subject of absolutes, Going in with that mindset you already lost the battle. IdrA is the perfect example of this as time and time again we'll see him leave a game rather than play out the rest of the match. Why? Because he doesn't think the other player will make a mistake and IdrA doesn't force his hand to allow his opponent to make one. Absolutes, the real burden to making any sort of a comeback when human error happens all the time especially when you don't have all the information in front of you. You have to change the way you look and approach the game to get more out of it. Hell, you might become a better player as a result at the same time. There were a lot of exciting things both players did, i.e. Naniwa blocking the natural expansion and blocking the 2nd nat with 2 pylons to delay any expo in order to make sure Leenock couldn't get more ahead. That is but one example. Leenock's use of early roaches were to dictate the play and punish Nani's 14 Nexuses. That's where we saw him branch out with baneling drops, to infestor/mutalisk play to keep Nani guessing and in his base. There was plenty more to Leenock's arsenal, so no I don't agree with your assessment. By game 4 Naniwa was drained and he made unforced errors. He didn't have much fight left in him and that's why we never got to see any other units from Lee. It became a walkover for Leenock. Nani was already defeated. In the Korean Leagues, maybe Nani would have more time to make adjustments as they can look at the replays during the break whereas the MLG really doesn't give you a whole lot of time to recover or map out what you want to do. Naniwa stuck to what he knew and worked up until this point. Unfortunately for him, Leenock had strategies to punish him for it. Many people on TL, don't seem to realize what the word strategy means and forget sc2 is a real time strategy game. They literally want pros to do 0 aggression and just macro till 200 food and collide. They don't realize pros don't just play the game, but they also play their opponent (mind games) | ||
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Assirra
Belgium4169 Posts
On November 22 2011 04:33 Sneakyz wrote: But that's how you play in a tournament, you stick to what you practiced. In this case, Naniwa had prepared this build which he obviously thought would be safe against almost everything, including 7rr, but wasn't, since Leenock denied the double zealot scout after the first failed roach rush. So he could either use a less refined/improvised build to be safe vs 7rr but worse against everything else, or keep using the same build for a higher chance to win in all other situations. Obviously he didn't think Leenock would actually use the 7rr 3(?) times and roach pressure once, so he kept using his practiced build and lost. There is a word for only doing 1 strategy/build, 1trick pony. If you play in a tournament you should at least have a couple builds ready so you are unpredictable and can switch builds when you deem necessary. | ||
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