Leenock ran through MMA, MVP, Idra, DRG in an extended, Boxer, Haypro, Slush, Huk, and finally Naniwa himself in an extended, whereas Naniwa beat DRG in a nonextended, Huk which cancels with Leenock's, a slumping Nestea (arguably), and lost to Leenock in the finals. Anyone playing up Naniwa here needs to understand how far Leenock had to come and who he had to beat. One could argue Naniwa would not be playing in the Finals if he had to go as far as Leenock did. Leenock is clearly superior and I hope he wins a Code S soon, he definitely has the skill.
I cannot believe some of you guys. Leenock had a much tougher road to the final and beat naniwa 4-1 in his worst matchup zvp. No matter the games were cheesy or not, you know there's something wrong with Naniwa if he gets 4-1ed using the same strategy again and again and again.
Leenock's impressive gauntlet from open and Naniwa crushing the Invitational + Winners/Championship bracket. While Leenock may have had a more impressive run, Naniwa beating DRG/MVP/Nestea etc., is more 'exciting' as a fan because hes not korean. It's not super shocking if MMA beats MVP, or Bomber beats MMA etc., a lot of the koreans are able to beat each other. The special thing was NaNiwa man handling the highest echelon of koreans with a sort of superiority that it's unheard of. This continues to breath life into the forgiener community, a sort of our top guys aren't so far behind! It continues the trend that's developed since IdrA in China, Stephano at IPL and HuK at Orlando. Except Naniwas run was even more impressive then those others.
That doesn't mean leenock wasn't impressive he certainly was but try to understand why people are freaking out about Naniwa's peformance this weekend.
On November 22 2011 03:34 crms wrote: Why so much fighting?
Both had amazing MLG's.
Leenock's impressive gauntlet from open and Naniwa crushing the Invitational + Winners/Championship bracket. While Leenock may have had a more impressive run, Naniwa beating DRG/MVP/Nestea etc., is more 'exciting' as a fan because hes not korean. It's not super shocking if MMA beats MVP, or Bomber beats MMA etc., a lot of the koreans are able to beat each other. The special thing was NaNiwa man handling the highest echelon of koreans with a sort of superiority that it's unheard of. This continues to breath life into the forgiener community, a sort of our top guys aren't so far behind! It continues the trend that's developed since IdrA in China, Stephano at IPL and HuK at Orlando. Except Naniwas run was even more impressive then those others.
That doesn't mean leenock wasn't impressive he certainly was but try to understand why people are freaking out about Naniwa's peformance this weekend.
I don't think anything has changed. Imho the korean/foreigner balance has been the same for at least a year now. The very best foreigners are sometimes able to beat the very best koreans, but they are not good enough to safely beat average koreans. I said that during that GSL World Cup thing, and I think it's still true right now. Naniwa is the perfect example for this, on the one hand he beat almost everybody this weekend, on the other hand he was not able to win a single Code A game yet. That's why, in my opinion, it's stupid to call Naniwa the "best protoss in the world" after one weekend and why an MVP is still miles ahead. Edit: I'm don't want to talk him down though, he played absolutely amazing and deserves his second place finish!
Give Naniwa a break guys; despite what you may or may not think of him, he has been doing relatively well throughout all MLG competitions he participated in this year (arguably excluding the one where Sjow knocked him out), ending up as one of the top seeds and eventually #2 in the National Championships. Adding to that the fact that he beat both NesTea and MVP in the Invitationals surely must prove something. You know, I don't care if you don't like him - but you can't discredit a second place in the most stacked tournament to date because you think his manners aren't good enough.
Why the heck are people comparing anything jesus christ what do you people hope to gain? Another post disagreeing with you in an equally retarded manner? Another person who already agreed with you agreeing with you? Or are you so woefully naive that you think anyone will actually listen to your (likely to be poorly constructed) argument as to why player X is better than player Y or whatever else stupidly subjective thing you're arguing about.
Peeps need to chill and stop posting if they're just going make it depressing to read and drown out the good posts with funny videos or new information.
On November 21 2011 21:19 Megatronn wrote: Leenock played to win and deserved the victory, BUT, like White Ra said after being cheesed 3 games in a row by MC in the Dreamhack invitational "that was championship match, not championship games"
Grats Leenock, I think he could take GSL after watching that.
MC won with 4gate, 3gate blink and a proxy 2gate. Whitera won 2 games with a 4gate and 3gate robo. wtf are you talking about "cheesed 3 times in a row"?
cheese doesn't really exist in pvp anyways. literally every game was all-in till a certain patch
On November 22 2011 03:34 crms wrote: Why so much fighting?
Both had amazing MLG's.
Leenock's impressive gauntlet from open and Naniwa crushing the Invitational + Winners/Championship bracket. While Leenock may have had a more impressive run, Naniwa beating DRG/MVP/Nestea etc., is more 'exciting' as a fan because hes not korean. It's not super shocking if MMA beats MVP, or Bomber beats MMA etc., a lot of the koreans are able to beat each other. The special thing was NaNiwa man handling the highest echelon of koreans with a sort of superiority that it's unheard of. This continues to breath life into the forgiener community, a sort of our top guys aren't so far behind! It continues the trend that's developed since IdrA in China, Stephano at IPL and HuK at Orlando. Except Naniwas run was even more impressive then those others.
That doesn't mean leenock wasn't impressive he certainly was but try to understand why people are freaking out about Naniwa's peformance this weekend.
nice post.
My personal opinion though is that leenock should be applauded because he is only 16 and still committed to schoolwork yet he won arguably the biggest sc2 tournament ever. Imagine when his focus is fully on sc2 without schoolwork. Definately the toughest sc2 tournament ever imo because of leenock going through the open bracket against the level of competition which is a lot of games. Naniwa has been training in korea for quite some time now and he didn't play many games so i believe leenock should get the most praise because of his age because it must have been mentally exhausting going though the open bracket and the losers bracket against so much top top class competition. The kid is only 16 after all which is pretty crazy.
I don't understand why people always bring up the foreigner vs koreans card all the time. It's prolly an american thing. But when i watch a tournament; i have my favorite players but i don't let bias cloud my judgement when it comes to the winner. Leenock put on an amazing run. Prolly the best run to date in sc2 history.
On November 22 2011 03:34 crms wrote: Why so much fighting?
Both had amazing MLG's.
Leenock's impressive gauntlet from open and Naniwa crushing the Invitational + Winners/Championship bracket. While Leenock may have had a more impressive run, Naniwa beating DRG/MVP/Nestea etc., is more 'exciting' as a fan because hes not korean. It's not super shocking if MMA beats MVP, or Bomber beats MMA etc., a lot of the koreans are able to beat each other. The special thing was NaNiwa man handling the highest echelon of koreans with a sort of superiority that it's unheard of. This continues to breath life into the forgiener community, a sort of our top guys aren't so far behind! It continues the trend that's developed since IdrA in China, Stephano at IPL and HuK at Orlando. Except Naniwas run was even more impressive then those others.
That doesn't mean leenock wasn't impressive he certainly was but try to understand why people are freaking out about Naniwa's peformance this weekend.
nice post.
My personal opinion though is that leenock should be applauded because he is only 16 and still committed to schoolwork yet he won arguably the biggest sc2 tournament ever. Imagine when his focus is fully on sc2 without schoolwork. Definately the toughest sc2 tournament ever imo because of leenock going through the open bracket against the level of competition which is a lot of games. Naniwa has been training in korea for quite some time now and he didn't play many games so i believe leenock should get the most praise because of his age because it must have been mentally exhausting going though the open bracket and the losers bracket against so much top top class competition. The kid is only 16 after all which is pretty crazy.
I don't understand why people always bring up the foreigner vs koreans card all the time. It's prolly an american thing. But when i watch a tournament; i have my favorite players but i don't let bias cloud my judgement when it comes to the winner. Leenock put on an amazing run. Prolly the best run to date in sc2 history.
On November 22 2011 03:34 crms wrote: Why so much fighting?
Both had amazing MLG's.
Leenock's impressive gauntlet from open and Naniwa crushing the Invitational + Winners/Championship bracket. While Leenock may have had a more impressive run, Naniwa beating DRG/MVP/Nestea etc., is more 'exciting' as a fan because hes not korean. It's not super shocking if MMA beats MVP, or Bomber beats MMA etc., a lot of the koreans are able to beat each other. The special thing was NaNiwa man handling the highest echelon of koreans with a sort of superiority that it's unheard of. This continues to breath life into the forgiener community, a sort of our top guys aren't so far behind! It continues the trend that's developed since IdrA in China, Stephano at IPL and HuK at Orlando. Except Naniwas run was even more impressive then those others.
That doesn't mean leenock wasn't impressive he certainly was but try to understand why people are freaking out about Naniwa's peformance this weekend.
I don't think anything has changed. Imho the korean/foreigner balance has been the same for at least a year now. The very best foreigners are sometimes able to beat the very best koreans, but they are not good enough to safely beat average koreans. I said that during that GSL World Cup thing, and I think it's still true right now. Naniwa is the perfect example for this, on the one hand he beat almost everybody this weekend, on the other hand he was not able to win a single Code A game yet. That's why, in my opinion, it's stupid to call Naniwa the "best protoss in the world" after one weekend and why an MVP is still miles ahead. Edit: I'm don't want to talk him down though, he played absolutely amazing and deserves his second place finish!
Around the time of the GSL World Cup, any foreigner beating Nestea or MVP in a non-mirror match without a latency advantage was virtually unthinkable. Dimaga's victory against Nestea was downplayed because "ZvZ is a coin flip." Back then, HuK beating MC in a PvP was big news.
A number of things have changed since the first MLG that invited Koreans, when they took the top spots and continued to do so for the next few MLGs. The most important is the rise (or resurgence, in some cases) of several foreigner champions - HuK, IdrA, Stephano, Sen, Naniwa, Thorzain, and Mana. We've seen more of the first three than the last four because of tournament attendance (HuK and IdrA attends nearly everything), but they've all posted solid results against top Koreans that resulted in foreigners taking most of the large foreigner tournaments since IEM Guangzhou, when IdrA kicked off the trend:
IEM Guangzhou (IdrA) IPL 3 (Stephano) IEM New York (DRG) ESWC (Stephano) Blizzcon Invitational (MVP) MLG Orlando (HuK)
Sure, there were foreigner victories before this - but it was mostly via HuK or Naniwa defeating MC in PvPs, or online results like in the TSL 3. And through it all, few people thought that the Koreans involved were the best of the best, since "MC was in a slump" and "Nestea and MVP didn't attend."
For this reason, Naniwa beating MVP and Nestea (twice), along with Haypro going 2-1 against Nestea and 1-2 against MVP, is a pretty big deal. If Naniwa had won Providence, that would've sealed it in terms of foreigner results this year, and made a statement about the closing gap between top foreigners and top Koreans. But of course, Leenock denied him and the foreigner community that opportunity. Even so, I think the statement can still be made.
Of course, this doesn't mean the amateur/semi-pro community in NA/EU/SEA, beneath the top pros, have gotten any better. Here, I feel that Koreans are still way ahead. The average NA/EU/SEA player, including the average pro in these regions, hasn't gained much ground.
On November 22 2011 03:34 crms wrote: Why so much fighting?
Both had amazing MLG's.
Leenock's impressive gauntlet from open and Naniwa crushing the Invitational + Winners/Championship bracket. While Leenock may have had a more impressive run, Naniwa beating DRG/MVP/Nestea etc., is more 'exciting' as a fan because hes not korean. It's not super shocking if MMA beats MVP, or Bomber beats MMA etc., a lot of the koreans are able to beat each other. The special thing was NaNiwa man handling the highest echelon of koreans with a sort of superiority that it's unheard of. This continues to breath life into the forgiener community, a sort of our top guys aren't so far behind! It continues the trend that's developed since IdrA in China, Stephano at IPL and HuK at Orlando. Except Naniwas run was even more impressive then those others.
That doesn't mean leenock wasn't impressive he certainly was but try to understand why people are freaking out about Naniwa's peformance this weekend.
nice post.
My personal opinion though is that leenock should be applauded because he is only 16 and still committed to schoolwork yet he won arguably the biggest sc2 tournament ever. Imagine when his focus is fully on sc2 without schoolwork. Definately the toughest sc2 tournament ever imo because of leenock going through the open bracket against the level of competition which is a lot of games. Naniwa has been training in korea for quite some time now and he didn't play many games so i believe leenock should get the most praise because of his age because it must have been mentally exhausting going though the open bracket and the losers bracket against so much top top class competition. The kid is only 16 after all which is pretty crazy.
I don't understand why people always bring up the foreigner vs koreans card all the time. It's prolly an american thing. But when i watch a tournament; i have my favorite players but i don't let bias cloud my judgement when it comes to the winner. Leenock put on an amazing run. Prolly the best run to date in sc2 history.
I thought leenock doesn't attend school?
Yes, he said that during the interview too. This shouldn't come as a surprise. He's working full-time as a professional gamer just like the BW pros. They have little to no time for school.
This is Leenock's commitment and it happens to those kids who go pro in Korea. As I've mentioned before, the fact he is only 16 makes it easier for him. Prime age to be going pro. Shrug.
On November 22 2011 03:26 chosenkerrigan wrote: I cannot believe some of you guys. Leenock had a much tougher road to the final and beat naniwa 4-1 in his worst matchup zvp. No matter the games were cheesy or not, you know there's something wrong with Naniwa if he gets 4-1ed using the same strategy again and again and again.
But that's how you play in a tournament, you stick to what you practiced. In this case, Naniwa had prepared this build which he obviously thought would be safe against almost everything, including 7rr, but wasn't, since Leenock denied the double zealot scout after the first failed roach rush. So he could either use a less refined/improvised build to be safe vs 7rr but worse against everything else, or keep using the same build for a higher chance to win in all other situations. Obviously he didn't think Leenock would actually use the 7rr 3(?) times and roach pressure once, so he kept using his practiced build and lost.
On November 22 2011 04:31 StarStruck wrote: Yes, he said that during the interview too. This shouldn't come as a surprise. He's working full-time as a professional gamer just like the BW pros. They have little to no time for school.
This is Leenock's commitment and it happens to those kids who go pro in Korea. As I've mentioned before, the fact he is only 16 makes it easier for him. Prime age to be going pro. Shrug.
Technically, Leenock is only 15 in Western terms (16 in Korea).
On November 22 2011 03:26 chosenkerrigan wrote: I cannot believe some of you guys. Leenock had a much tougher road to the final and beat naniwa 4-1 in his worst matchup zvp. No matter the games were cheesy or not, you know there's something wrong with Naniwa if he gets 4-1ed using the same strategy again and again and again.
But that's how you play in a tournament, you stick to what you practiced. In this case, Naniwa had prepared this build which he obviously thought would be safe against almost everything, including 7rr, but wasn't, since Leenock denied the double zealot scout after the first failed roach rush. So he could either use a less refined/improvised build to be safe vs 7rr but worse against everything else, or keep using the same build for a higher chance to win in all other situations. Obviously he didn't think Leenock would actually use the 7rr 3(?) times and roach pressure once, so he kept using his practiced build and lost.
Well yeah, that's fine. Just don't call out Leenock as "cheesy" if the best response to someone doing the same build 4 times ends up being the same cheese.
On November 22 2011 03:34 crms wrote: Why so much fighting?
Both had amazing MLG's.
Leenock's impressive gauntlet from open and Naniwa crushing the Invitational + Winners/Championship bracket. While Leenock may have had a more impressive run, Naniwa beating DRG/MVP/Nestea etc., is more 'exciting' as a fan because hes not korean. It's not super shocking if MMA beats MVP, or Bomber beats MMA etc., a lot of the koreans are able to beat each other. The special thing was NaNiwa man handling the highest echelon of koreans with a sort of superiority that it's unheard of. This continues to breath life into the forgiener community, a sort of our top guys aren't so far behind! It continues the trend that's developed since IdrA in China, Stephano at IPL and HuK at Orlando. Except Naniwas run was even more impressive then those others.
That doesn't mean leenock wasn't impressive he certainly was but try to understand why people are freaking out about Naniwa's peformance this weekend.
nice post.
My personal opinion though is that leenock should be applauded because he is only 16 and still committed to schoolwork yet he won arguably the biggest sc2 tournament ever. Imagine when his focus is fully on sc2 without schoolwork. Definately the toughest sc2 tournament ever imo because of leenock going through the open bracket against the level of competition which is a lot of games. Naniwa has been training in korea for quite some time now and he didn't play many games so i believe leenock should get the most praise because of his age because it must have been mentally exhausting going though the open bracket and the losers bracket against so much top top class competition. The kid is only 16 after all which is pretty crazy.
I don't understand why people always bring up the foreigner vs koreans card all the time. It's prolly an american thing. But when i watch a tournament; i have my favorite players but i don't let bias cloud my judgement when it comes to the winner. Leenock put on an amazing run. Prolly the best run to date in sc2 history.
I thought leenock doesn't attend school?
Yes, he said that during the interview too. This shouldn't come as a surprise. He's working full-time as a professional gamer just like the BW pros. They have little to no time for school.
This is Leenock's commitment and it happens to those kids who go pro in Korea. As I've mentioned before, the fact he is only 16 makes it easier for him. Prime age to be going pro. Shrug.
Yeah I don't think the fact that he's good at age 16 is surprising at all for anyone who's been watching bw (and I assume wc3 as well?) before. Seen it a hundred times.
idra didn't kick off anything by beating his teammate and revival. if you count huk as a foreigner, he beat july and moon 4 months earlier (those 2 victories are about as impressive as idra's at iem), he was "kicking off the trend" then. but neither of those is anywhere close to stephano's (or naniwa's recent) record vs korean players if you ask me
i'm not really following the conversation but idra bias got detected
Is Leenock as good as Naniwa? Well, probably not in the late game. Leenock wanted nothing to do with Naniwa's late game so used strategies that would force a lot of confrontation early. Basically Leenock used great mechanics and control with gold league strats.
EPT
