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Here we go again. This weekend is about good games and good fun. Don't rain on that parade. Play nice guys. Here's the very standard and friendly:
- NO Balance Whine.
- NO Player Bashing.
- NO Caster Bashing.
- NO BM whatsoever.
Breaking these rules (from pg 166 forward) will be met with severe punishment. |
On November 21 2011 21:38 ypslala wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 20:00 hugman wrote:
What's the best way to be safe against Roach all-ins with FFE?
Research Hallucination right away? there is none, (build a core AND research hallu first, will more kill than help you) except: going blind for 3 cannons - what is retarded, or scout it early and having a highground advantage like on shakuras plateau. and even then, it depends on seconds and you need micro without mistakes. btw, an awful map for this and for toss expanding at all, is xelnaga caverns. but what made me "i can't believe what i see" was Leenocks 7 pool.
Leenock never got punished for it, and Naniwa was allgame long in heavy defense mode. and behind. allthough Naniwa scouted it and did not do any mistakes. at least i didnt noticed any. anyway congratulations Leenock! and what a great tournament. great games and castings.
I think the reason why Naniwa never got ahead after defneding that was the fact that he cannon-rushed Leenock's nat after defnding the 7-pool. It was a tactic that worked well against Nestea on TDA because on that map Nestea couldn
't take the near third due to the rocks so it delayed his expansion. However because Leenock was able to take the third straight away instead of the nat on Dual Sight it never really delayed him at all and was therefore not worth it. If Nani had used those minerals to get his gates up quicker he might have been able to defend his nat from the roach follow up. That's how I saw it anyway.
Usualyl defneding a 7-pool should put you ahead.
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Switzerland6838 Posts
On November 21 2011 22:35 Hassybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 22:32 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:
I dislike Zergs with a passion, but leenock really deserves mad respect for what he did. The format needs to be changed though, having a seed should not give you such an advantage over OB players.
People who have come to pretty much every MLG, and consistently perform well, should not be rewarded? Really?
I said the advantage was too big, not that they shouldnt be rewarded.
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As long as Naniwa doesn't have to play lucky he has a chance
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Too bad for Naniwa, but I'm always glad to see a Zerg do well, I'm race biased.
And what a run that was. Looking forward to see if he can confirm next tournament.
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On November 21 2011 23:12 Applesqt wrote:
As long as Naniwa doesn't have to play lucky he has a chance
LOOOL. This is actually so true.
I still find it funny that he defeated Nestea twice, but is still 0-4 against Lucky with a 0-2 defeat being just one week ago.
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On November 21 2011 17:04 Latty wrote:
seriously, watching leenock's games made me feel good. felt so right when he beat boxer after that bunker rush, when he completely outplayed MVP when he won 3 games straight against DRG and dominating the finals. ahh great stuff! awesome micro / macro this weekend from leenock, absolutely played his a-game
I agree with everything except that he completly outplayed mvp. it was actually quite the opposite in game 1 where mvp could have a-moved to victory for about 4 minutes. imo leenock got lucky in this one, but you cant win 36games without a little luck. leenocks stamania also is really impressive, he played on such a high level for so many games that day.
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On November 21 2011 23:08 tomatriedes wrote:
Usually defending a 7-pool should put you ahead.
If you watched closely after the first set of zerglings Leenock went straight for drones and he continued to pressure with those lings holding Naniwa back more and more.
Likewise Naniwa did some good harassment with his probe by delaying Leenock's hatch on more than one occasion. Naniwa tried to do everything he could to delay the expansion going up. Unfortunately he couldn't stop the continued aggression Leenock unleashed on him. Leenocks angles were superb and he kept denying Naniwa from getting back into the game.
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On November 21 2011 19:33 Holden Caulfield wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 18:57 purpose wrote:
People just need to stop whining about allins or chees. this is competative gaming, the first prize was 50kusd right?
This is not "20min no rush game", if you think that go play custom with the other noobs. Sc2 skill is not determaind only when a game gets passed 3 base.
I know guys like Idra think that if you dont let me get 3 base and 100drones then you are cheesing because there are no skill in winning a game earlier then that. but that is just one way of playing.
some players are just better and more comfortable with early pressure. if they can win with that then that is what matters.
Learn to deal with it, its part of the game.
Lennock played epic and deserved to win, even though I was really really hoping Naniwa could win it all. He still did a epic tourney and won MLG GI. not bad for a foreigner! Good luck making people have a ''play to win'' mentality... good luck....
Better spelling would be a start. Also viewers don't really need a "play to win mentality" since they are not playing.
They want to see awesome games, thats what they are paying for and what ultimately generates the pricemoney.
From a viewers perspective, leenocks play in the finals was not exactly special. His superior strategic decision made him win, but that is nothing you can actually watch. The 7RR builds looked pretty identical to a standard ladder cheese, it was only the circumstance that made it so brilliant. So while he of course fully deserved the win, from a viewers perspective it is a lot cooler to watch naniwas breathtaking micro, since it looks just surreal if you ever tried to micro some protoss units yourself. Not to take away anything from leenock, but for his gamplan (and maybe zerg in general) micro was not as critcal.
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On November 21 2011 23:22 perestain wrote:
Better spelling would be a start. Also viewers don't really need a "play to win mentality" since they are not playing.
They want to see awesome games, thats what they are paying for and what ultimately generates the pricemoney.
From a viewers perspective, leenocks play in the finals was not exactly special. His superior strategic decision made him win, but that is nothing you can actually watch. The 7RR builds looked pretty identical to a standard ladder cheese, it was only the circumstance that made it so brilliant. So while he of course fully deserved the win, from a viewers perspective it is a lot cooler to watch naniwas breathtaking micro, since it looks just surreal if you ever tried to micro some protoss units yourself. Not to take away anything from leenock, but for his gamplan (and maybe zerg in general) micro was not as critcal.
Double standards strike once again,
If you don't think Leenock played with exceptional micro to counter Naniwa's then you have to re-watch the games. Leenock made small variations as well to throw Naniwa off. There's actually a lot more going on in that series than meets the eye. This is what separates the boys from the men.
In a few of the games Naniwa demonstrated great blocks, but after the second one his play started to falter a bit. You could tell he was getting frustrated with Leenock's ruthless aggression. Leenock did not want Naniwa to dictate the action like he did against DRG and NesTea. He forced Naniwa's hand into making mistakes and wasting time and energy.
Very reminiscent of a young JulyZerg. He came; he saw; he conquered. It will make other players think twice about opening with a 14 Nexus, but in order to play as convincing as Leenock you really need the micro to support it.
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did naniwa FFE every PvZ in this tournament? I'm not sure but it must have been 90 % of the times lol! glad leenock punished him for that
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Just thought of something. I can't remembering seeing ghosts in any games i watched? Did i just miss all the ''games with ghosts'' or was the usage of ghosts rare this MLG?
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a lot of zergs dont do roach busts as its not as easy as leenock made it seem. i dont know why nani didnt learn after he died to it the first time.
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On November 21 2011 23:18 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 23:12 Applesqt wrote:
As long as Naniwa doesn't have to play lucky he has a chance LOOOL. This is actually so true. I still find it funny that he defeated Nestea twice, but is still 0-4 against Lucky with a 0-2 defeat being just one week ago.
Thats because Lucky had a lot of time to prepare for Naniwas style.
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On November 21 2011 22:23 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 22:08 TeeHigh wrote:
Naniwa: Wins 3 Series, loses 2
=> 2nd place, code S spot
I wonder If he'll win a single game there. Stop praising fucking Code S like it's another world.. It's not. This MLG Naniwa alone probably beat as many high quality players as Huk in his whole Code S career and people still doubt him? WTF?
Agreed if this doesn't qualify you for Code S I don't know what does:
Nestea, HuK, DRG. And on Friday beating Nestea and MVP? Come ON, what's he gotta do to get a little respect!?
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On November 21 2011 23:18 wklbishop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 23:12 Applesqt wrote:
As long as Naniwa doesn't have to play lucky he has a chance LOOOL. This is actually so true. I still find it funny that he defeated Nestea twice, but is still 0-4 against Lucky with a 0-2 defeat being just one week ago.
It's just because they have different playstyles. If you let Naniwa do his thing he wins most of the games, which Nestea let him do. Lucky/Leenock didn't and Naniwa didn't respond/scout well enough so he lost.
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On November 22 2011 00:08 Zorgaz wrote:
Just thought of something. I can't remembering seeing ghosts in any games i watched? Did i just miss all the ''games with ghosts'' or was the usage of ghosts rare this MLG?
I was thinking the exact same thing. It seems odd, especially in tvz
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On November 22 2011 00:08 aintz wrote:
a lot of zergs dont do roach busts as its not as easy as leenock made it seem. i dont know why nani didnt learn after he died to it the first time.
I think nani thought he could get away with it, even vs 7rr and whatnot. Most likely that would be a reflection of his experience on the ladder, where a little poke with two zealots would probably have been sufficient to sniff something like that out in time. In this case leenock obviously knew how naniwa would play, probably from talking to the other koreans and catching a few of his games. The first game on shakuras, naniwa saw the roaches and defended quite easily what with having the ramp and all. From that point on he was basically screwed, and every other game was settled the moment nani went ffe and leenock went early pressure.
It must be tough to deviate from the style you have practiced but naniwa could probably have abused the fact that leenock went for the roach/ling timing blindly in two of the games.
Naniwa is clearly going to have to rethink his initial opening in pvz but he's proven this weekend that his decision making and micro are one step above all other foreigners (imo).
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I still can't believe people are taking credit away Leenock. Naniwa had a one-trick-pony strat against zerg the entire three days that became incredibly obvious to not only the players, and not only the audience, but even to the people who had very little knowledge of starcraft over the 3 days (one of the convention security people to me - "hey, didn't he do that before too?"). Nearly every zerg he has played involved a predictable FFE and Naniwa successfully executed it every single time against every single zerg until he ran into Leenock.
Despite the heavy number of games Leenock played, he was around to watch most of the major matches. Choya (I think it was him) was there as well and probably the most important aspect that only people who were there would know is that the korean players hung out and spent time together ALL THE TIME over the three days.
Naniwa opened with FFE every single game and so Leenock countered with 7RR (nearly) every single game, however Leenock's choice beyond that was very varied and obviously not just a single-faceted strat. His 7 pool strat made perfect sense although I thought it was extremely risky and he transitioned out of it beautifully, considering that his natural was cannoned and his expansion at a different location was constantly being blocked.
It was very, very different watching the first person views of each player and what he did made complete sense. Naniwa failed to adapt his strategy after it became incredibly apparent that if he chose to FFE he would get 7RRed and Leenock had the micro to do heavy damage.
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On November 20 2011 13:55 Eternalmisfit wrote:Although it is unlikely, I am rooting for someone from the Open Bracket to make it through the Loser's bracket and take the tournament. MKP winning would be a great storyline but he is going to face the possibly insurmountable wall called MVP  . Apart from those two, rooting for MVP or Bomber to take the tourney. I had high expectations from MMA as well but his play today was rather lackluster.
Quoted for truth. Last post from the first page! 
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On November 21 2011 23:36 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2011 23:22 perestain wrote:
Better spelling would be a start. Also viewers don't really need a "play to win mentality" since they are not playing.
They want to see awesome games, thats what they are paying for and what ultimately generates the pricemoney.
From a viewers perspective, leenocks play in the finals was not exactly special. His superior strategic decision made him win, but that is nothing you can actually watch. The 7RR builds looked pretty identical to a standard ladder cheese, it was only the circumstance that made it so brilliant. So while he of course fully deserved the win, from a viewers perspective it is a lot cooler to watch naniwas breathtaking micro, since it looks just surreal if you ever tried to micro some protoss units yourself. Not to take away anything from leenock, but for his gamplan (and maybe zerg in general) micro was not as critcal.
Double standards strike once again, If you don't think Leenock played with exceptional micro to counter Naniwa's then you have to re-watch the games. Leenock made small variations as well to throw Naniwa off. There's actually a lot more going on in that series than meets the eye. This is what separates the boys from the men. In a few of the games Naniwa demonstrated great blocks, but after the second one his play started to falter a bit. You could tell he was getting frustrated with Leenock's ruthless aggression. Leenock did not want Naniwa to dictate the action like he did against DRG and NesTea. He forced Naniwa's hand into making mistakes and wasting time and energy. Very reminiscent of a young JulyZerg. He came; he saw; he conquered. It will make other players think twice about opening with a 14 Nexus, but in order to play as convincing as Leenock you really need the micro to support it.
Sorry, but I dont agree. The games were over the moment when 7 roaches arrived at naniwas natural and he had no cannons up because he failed to scout. The micro that followed was cute at times but not critical to the outcome whatsoever.
Leenock didn't need exceptional micro against naniwa. He realized he just had to 7RR. Quite the elegant solution given how fatigued he must have been after his whole tournament run. The concept was exciting, but not the actual gameplay.
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EPT
