Watch how you approach the topic of match fixing. You can speculate, saying "I'm not so sure about the finals, something doesn't sit right with me," but if you are going to outright accuse players of match fixing you need something more than your word.
TL takes match fixing/abuse seriously and as such there is a burden a proof when you are accusing players.
On October 23 2011 10:35 windsupernova wrote: Well, just to add to the discussion:
Another tournament dominated by Koreans!
Will the foreigners catch up?
Koreans won both the WoW + SC2 tournaments.... haha.
Koreans weren't favorites in the WoW tournament though, and they haven't been doing much in the scene for a while. OMG did not look like it outclassed the non-Korean teams (can't call them foreigners in WoW), but won in very close matches that could've ended either way, while the other Korean team got eliminated in the group stages.
SC 2... Well let's just say that the closest MVP came to losing to a non-Korean was Toodming's baneling busts.
Did you see goochi's positioning on dalaran arena? Miles and miles ahead of foreigners. Jungyup amazing hunter, clutch sacrifices and freedoms on his paladin. Disengage howl of terror deterrence death coils etc. At least the games I saw they played like fucking monsters :D
Don't know enough about WoW to tell whether they were outplaying the foreigners, but OMG lost to Skill Capped in the group stages and 3-2'd them in the finals. Not exactly results that I'd put up to indicate outclassing.
WoW doesn't have a dominant Korean scene. Of course, WoW doesn't really have a scene... at all! But the statement still stands.
So foreigners can be construed as anyone honestly.
Yeah, that's kind of how I understand it, as well.
On October 23 2011 10:39 lolnoty wrote: I don't think its far fetched that they planned on splitting the pot and played that last game just to show cool explosions and shit for the crowd. It was seriously awful play from Nestea for a good portion of the game. If it was one or two small mistakes, sure, but he made a dozen huge ones. The entire way he was approaching the match was different than how he normally does.
I don't think it's a bad thing if they planned to split the pot, and I'm not saying that Nestea would have won if he played normally, but that was clearly not them playing at their best. It might even be good for SC2 to showcase some big explosions to a crowd of potential fans.
This. Blizzcon was full of non-sc2 players, and honestly, making a spectacle of the game is gonna get alot more people into it. Which is ultimately good. I don't mind.
Oh, it was a spectacle all right...
Well, looking at the map pool, blizzcon doesn't strike me as a legit tournament anyway to be honest.
I have to agree. Every1 was hoping for a great tournament, maybe one of the biggest of the year. It ended up being pretty terrible, a lot of good matches weren't shown at all and the mappool destroyed any possibility to get a good series.
Yes blizzard can definitely make games better than anyone else really. Valve doesnt make games anymore to be honest. id is out. But their executive decision making is pretty subpar.
No they don't, do you even play the game? Ghost are so much more expensive and they shoot slower than marines. The only terran ground unit that's worse against lings than ghosts are Thors without support.
Actually, without detection, ghosts would wreck lings since they do extra damage to light units, They 2 shot lings.
And for each ghost you can get 8 lings without having to spend any gas.
Guess if a ghost can kill 8 lings, and guess which unit remakes the fastest with 15k minerals stockpiled.
I have some news for you: The ghost weren't alone. With PF, tanks, medivac, it doesnt' matter how many lings you have, you will never kill the ghosts.
I have some news for you.
You don't need to only make lings.
The entire argument is a WHAT KONTERS MASS GHOST OMAGID!, and the simple answer is that lings are great against them.
If you're going to go with a match specific encounter, then no shit there are other things to take into account.
Lings vs PF + tanks + ghosts + medivacs aren't a 100% sure way win (especially since the planetary with armor will take minimal damage from lings).
Putting them in drops isn't a sure answer either (they're vulnerable in the overlords).
Nestea broke underpressure and threw away that game. Anyone saying otherwise clearly didn't watch the same game as me.
Let's theorycraft a bit, ok say nestea thought that he could overpower with 27 BLords. Fine! okay... but why send them accross the MIDDLE of the map where whole opposition is? Why not abuse terrain, and send them on top base or bottom base or both for that matter so that mvp cant focus down on them 100% with both ghosts AND vikings. and during that time sneak infestors through the middle. OR! lob infested terrans on the ledges of the bases and use them to keep a distance between MVP's AA and the blords? and resupply with ultras running down the middle? no he decided, ok I am tired of all this nuking and dropping bs and lets end the game with 27 blords down the middle theres no way that TWENTY SEVEN Broods can be sniped RIGHT? WRONG!!!
What do you expect Nestea to do about the Viking in that case? I am guessing Nestea hope was to destroy Ghost+Tank+PF and flood with lings. To hit at production. BL solo will never win an equal eco vs Terran.
On October 23 2011 10:34 NNTP wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:25 Dalavita wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:23 Goldfish wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:20 Dalavita wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:19 Elean wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:17 Dalavita wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:10 NNTP wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:05 LetoAtreides82 wrote: [quote]
No they don't, do you even play the game? Ghost are so much more expensive and they shoot slower than marines. The only terran ground unit that's worse against lings than ghosts are Thors without support.
Actually, without detection, ghosts would wreck lings since they do extra damage to light units, They 2 shot lings.
And for each ghost you can get 8 lings without having to spend any gas.
Guess if a ghost can kill 8 lings, and guess which unit remakes the fastest with 15k minerals stockpiled.
I have some news for you: The ghost weren't alone. With PF, tanks, medivac, it doesnt' matter how many lings you have, you will never kill the ghosts.
I have some news for you.
You don't need to only make lings.
The entire argument is a WHAT KONTERS MASS GHOST OMAGID!, and the simple answer is that lings are great against them.
If you're going to go with a match specific encounter, then no shit there are other things to take into account.
Lings vs PF + tanks + ghosts + medivacs aren't a 100% sure way win (especially since the planetary with armor will take minimal damage from lings).
Putting them in drops isn't a sure answer either (they're vulnerable in the overlords).
Did you not read a word I said?
"The entire argument is a WHAT KONTERS MASS GHOST OMAGID!, and the simple answer is that lings are great against them."
P.S Mass roach counters mass ghosts, roaches have ALOT of HP and are armored so do not suffer bonus damage from ghosts and only cost 75\25 to the ghosts' 200\100.
That would have been a great choice too, send blords to the bases draw away parts of the army and sneak roaches in away from the PF and tanks.
Roaches had no upgrades and tie up you supply, One ghost > One Roach.
True he didnt upgrade the roaches but he had 3 armor up which means that he could have sent roaches in to buffer some of the damage and create space and then go in blords at an angle where he only faces vikings OR ghosts not both! Also, vikings cannot do anything to roach and he did have few infestors as back up but were useless as he didnt see where he had to fungal since the first units to breech the line of sigh were the blords followed by the infestors who were quickly emp ed. going through the center was the worst decision he could have made with the units on the map at that point in time.
Nestea could never win the game unless he destroyed the Ghosts PF and Tanks.
Nestea could either go flank and only mean viking (without infestors) and lose all BL without doing anything because not enough eco to go AA + sufficent numbers of BL to kill Ghost or go vs Ghost+Vikings and hope to get Tanks and Ghosts before vikings kill his BL.
The game was over once MVP got center control. This is the how Shakuras plays out ZvT. Nestea had no good options. MVP had nothing but good once at that point.
On October 23 2011 10:05 LetoAtreides82 wrote: [quote]
No they don't, do you even play the game? Ghost are so much more expensive and they shoot slower than marines. The only terran ground unit that's worse against lings than ghosts are Thors without support.
Actually, without detection, ghosts would wreck lings since they do extra damage to light units, They 2 shot lings.
And for each ghost you can get 8 lings without having to spend any gas.
Guess if a ghost can kill 8 lings, and guess which unit remakes the fastest with 15k minerals stockpiled.
I have some news for you: The ghost weren't alone. With PF, tanks, medivac, it doesnt' matter how many lings you have, you will never kill the ghosts.
I have some news for you.
You don't need to only make lings.
The entire argument is a WHAT KONTERS MASS GHOST OMAGID!, and the simple answer is that lings are great against them.
If you're going to go with a match specific encounter, then no shit there are other things to take into account.
Lings vs PF + tanks + ghosts + medivacs aren't a 100% sure way win (especially since the planetary with armor will take minimal damage from lings).
Putting them in drops isn't a sure answer either (they're vulnerable in the overlords).
Nestea broke underpressure and threw away that game. Anyone saying otherwise clearly didn't watch the same game as me.
Let's theorycraft a bit, ok say nestea thought that he could overpower with 27 BLords. Fine! okay... but why send them accross the MIDDLE of the map where whole opposition is? Why not abuse terrain, and send them on top base or bottom base or both for that matter so that mvp cant focus down on them 100% with both ghosts AND vikings. and during that time sneak infestors through the middle. OR! lob infested terrans on the ledges of the bases and use them to keep a distance between MVP's AA and the blords? and resupply with ultras running down the middle? no he decided, ok I am tired of all this nuking and dropping bs and lets end the game with 27 blords down the middle theres no way that TWENTY SEVEN Broods can be sniped RIGHT? WRONG!!!
What do you expect Nestea to do about the Viking in that case? I am guessing Nestea hope was to destroy Ghost+Tank+PF and flood with lings. To hit at production. BL solo will never win an equal eco vs Terran.
On October 23 2011 10:34 NNTP wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:25 Dalavita wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:23 Goldfish wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:20 Dalavita wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:19 Elean wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:17 Dalavita wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:10 NNTP wrote: [quote]
Actually, without detection, ghosts would wreck lings since they do extra damage to light units, They 2 shot lings.
And for each ghost you can get 8 lings without having to spend any gas.
Guess if a ghost can kill 8 lings, and guess which unit remakes the fastest with 15k minerals stockpiled.
I have some news for you: The ghost weren't alone. With PF, tanks, medivac, it doesnt' matter how many lings you have, you will never kill the ghosts.
I have some news for you.
You don't need to only make lings.
The entire argument is a WHAT KONTERS MASS GHOST OMAGID!, and the simple answer is that lings are great against them.
If you're going to go with a match specific encounter, then no shit there are other things to take into account.
Lings vs PF + tanks + ghosts + medivacs aren't a 100% sure way win (especially since the planetary with armor will take minimal damage from lings).
Putting them in drops isn't a sure answer either (they're vulnerable in the overlords).
Did you not read a word I said?
"The entire argument is a WHAT KONTERS MASS GHOST OMAGID!, and the simple answer is that lings are great against them."
P.S Mass roach counters mass ghosts, roaches have ALOT of HP and are armored so do not suffer bonus damage from ghosts and only cost 75\25 to the ghosts' 200\100.
That would have been a great choice too, send blords to the bases draw away parts of the army and sneak roaches in away from the PF and tanks.
Roaches had no upgrades and tie up you supply, One ghost > One Roach.
True he didnt upgrade the roaches but he had 3 armor up which means that he could have sent roaches in to buffer some of the damage and create space and then go in blords at an angle where he only faces vikings OR ghosts not both! Also, vikings cannot do anything to roach and he did have few infestors as back up but were useless as he didnt see where he had to fungal since the first units to breech the line of sigh were the blords followed by the infestors who were quickly emp ed. going through the center was the worst decision he could have made with the units on the map at that point in time.
ur totally right, but if we remember that MVP was also playing the game it would be very hard if not impossible
Yes and MVP played outstandingly and kept his composure whereas Nestea broke down while he was winning the match. Point is that I think Nestea genuinely played his best but he broke down at one point and made wrong decisions that cost him the game. People seem to be defending him but you have to take everything into consideration. Nestea just stopped playing at peak performance and broke down in the mental game. I remember it was in one of the recent SotG episodes where the hosts were saying that SC2 does not yet have a Bonjwa as opposed to many in the history of sc bw. The closest person to attain this title is MVP. Artosis said that everyone in SC2 is still playing like crap (relatively) what he meant was that even the pros are still playing with mistakes and are not playing perfectly, and the closest person to playing perfect is MVP at the moment.
On October 23 2011 10:38 Supdude wrote: The game was entertaining. It's obviously fixed, but hey, they are on the same team. That's the way it is.
MVP took out Sen (rather easily), so Nestea gave him the title. It's a win-win. No wonder Nestea beat MVP so easily earlier.
Of course Nestea would be favored against Sen, too, but it's a much riskier proposition. ZvZ by nature is unpredictable, and Sen's ZvZ is his best matchup.
Now it all makes sense
Huh? That doesn't make any sense. Why would NesTea let MVP win if MVP beat Sen? Am I missing something here? Are you being sarcastic? Also, even if they had agreed to split the prize money beforehand, why would he just willingly give up the prestige that comes with winning the whole tournament? All you conspirators are also forgetting that the korean culture is quite different. If they had really fixed the outcome, it would've been NesTea winning the whole thing since he's the senior and holds authority over MVP.
People need to stop with this match-fixing bullshit now.
there is no conspiracy. it's just people failing to realize how a split map shakuras zvt plays out when you're a subpar zvt player against the best terran in the world.
Yep, that's why Nestea absolutely crushed MVP on Antiga Shipyard. No mistakes from MVP, just amazing macro from Nestea.
Yo dawg, I'm not sure if you know this... but while Nestea may be really fucking good at SC2, he's not perfect. People make mistakes in games all the time, especially when facing an opponent you've played more times than you can count. The mind game inception going on is probably deeper than you can imagine. If you've played the same person of your own caliber multiple times, you start to develop these small little tricks that you know will throw them off. For example, I know that one of my friends builds his gateway/pylon/core block off in a certain way, so i have a drone to block his core, cause I know where he'll put it.
But that's just the start. Now my friend starts leaving a probe where I usually put my drone to stop my drone from blocking. So now when I get to his base and see that, I head straight to his gas to steal it, but now he responds with that by taking his 2nd gas earlier and/or keeping a prove in the building vicinity of the extractor.
now I have to think up a new trick that goes another level deeper - i don't know what it will be yet, perhaps fast burrow to prevent a 2nd expand, and force him to build more observers.
The point of this post is to point out that you can do all the analyzing of strategy you want on games, but the important part is knowing WHY they did those things - not the fact that they did what they did. More importantly, you need to understand that there are mind games going on between these 2 guys, because like I explained above, there are mind games you develop with people you play a lot.
On October 23 2011 10:38 Supdude wrote: The game was entertaining. It's obviously fixed, but hey, they are on the same team. That's the way it is.
MVP took out Sen (rather easily), so Nestea gave him the title. It's a win-win. No wonder Nestea beat MVP so easily earlier.
Of course Nestea would be favored against Sen, too, but it's a much riskier proposition. ZvZ by nature is unpredictable, and Sen's ZvZ is his best matchup.
Now it all makes sense
Huh? That doesn't make any sense. Why would NesTea let MVP win if MVP beat Sen? Am I missing something here? Are you being sarcastic? Also, even if they had agreed to split the prize money beforehand, why would he just willingly give up the prestige that comes with winning the whole tournament? All you conspirators are also forgetting that the korean culture is quite different. If they had really fixed the outcome, it would've been NesTea winning the whole thing since he's the senior and holds authority over MVP.
People need to stop with this match-fixing bullshit now.
there is no conspiracy. it's just people failing to realize how a split map shakuras zvt plays out when you're a subpar zvt player against the best terran in the world.
Going 3-4 against "the best terran in the world" makes you a "subpar zvt player"?
despite all the gob that artosis pours out of his mouth during nestea matches, nestea is actually very weak against terran.
barely survives virus in ro16 manhandled by gumiho in WCG group stage loses to MVP every time they meet defeated by TOP in super tournament.
On October 23 2011 10:35 windsupernova wrote: Well, just to add to the discussion:
Another tournament dominated by Koreans!
Will the foreigners catch up?
Koreans won both the WoW + SC2 tournaments.... haha.
Koreans weren't favorites in the WoW tournament though, and they haven't been doing much in the scene for a while. OMG did not look like it outclassed the non-Korean teams (can't call them foreigners in WoW), but won in very close matches that could've ended either way, while the other Korean team got eliminated in the group stages.
SC 2... Well let's just say that the closest MVP came to losing to a non-Korean was Toodming's baneling busts.
Did you see goochi's positioning on dalaran arena? Miles and miles ahead of foreigners. Jungyup amazing hunter, clutch sacrifices and freedoms on his paladin. Disengage howl of terror deterrence death coils etc. At least the games I saw they played like fucking monsters :D
Don't know enough about WoW to tell whether they were outplaying the foreigners, but OMG lost to Skill Capped in the group stages and 3-2'd them in the finals. Not exactly results that I'd put up to indicate outclassing.
WoW doesn't have a dominant Korean scene. Of course, WoW doesn't really have a scene... at all! But the statement still stands.
So foreigners can be construed as anyone honestly.
Yeah, that's kind of how I understand it, as well.
Dota has a much bigger eSports scene than WoW
Right on then. WoW has mostly been about PvE, which doesn't really make for very good live events at all. In this way, Europe I guess would be your "Korea" but the gap between nations and continents in that game is a lot smaller than SC1 was, which I am to understand, was quite large.
On October 23 2011 10:38 Supdude wrote: The game was entertaining. It's obviously fixed, but hey, they are on the same team. That's the way it is.
MVP took out Sen (rather easily), so Nestea gave him the title. It's a win-win. No wonder Nestea beat MVP so easily earlier.
Of course Nestea would be favored against Sen, too, but it's a much riskier proposition. ZvZ by nature is unpredictable, and Sen's ZvZ is his best matchup.
Now it all makes sense
Are you crazy? NesTea doesn't lose in ZvZ man
Against Korean zergs that's true. He has lost matches to Dimaga and Sen. Sen's zvz is very good. Watch Sen beat Nestea:
I'm seriously skeptical of all these knee jerk reactions whenever something happens in a finals. Remember how everyone though FF was imba after MC beat July so easily? So I won't say whether or not I think the finals were fixed until the dust has settled and everyone has settled down emotionally as well.
I have no idea why people think nestea didn't play seriously or something Split map TvZ super late game on shakuras, once terran gets 10+ ghosts with PFs up in the center & nukes, it is close to impossible for zerg to win.
Nestea was pretty much going for the kill when he dropped in MVP's main, he was planning to reduce ghost count with the drop (which he failed to do) then reproduce to 200 in an instant and roll MVP over, which is the only option he pretty much has. But constant drops & nukes killed of hatcheries & larvae, and by the time nestea recovered 200/200, MVP had already recovered his marine count/ghost mana.
Although the 20 broodlords without any corruptors & overseers were definitely a mistake, Nestea tried his best, but the map was retarded to say the least for late game TvZ.
On October 23 2011 10:38 Supdude wrote: The game was entertaining. It's obviously fixed, but hey, they are on the same team. That's the way it is.
MVP took out Sen (rather easily), so Nestea gave him the title. It's a win-win. No wonder Nestea beat MVP so easily earlier.
Of course Nestea would be favored against Sen, too, but it's a much riskier proposition. ZvZ by nature is unpredictable, and Sen's ZvZ is his best matchup.
Now it all makes sense
Huh? That doesn't make any sense. Why would NesTea let MVP win if MVP beat Sen? Am I missing something here? Are you being sarcastic? Also, even if they had agreed to split the prize money beforehand, why would he just willingly give up the prestige that comes with winning the whole tournament? All you conspirators are also forgetting that the korean culture is quite different. If they had really fixed the outcome, it would've been NesTea winning the whole thing since he's the senior and holds authority over MVP.
People need to stop with this match-fixing bullshit now.
there is no conspiracy. it's just people failing to realize how a split map shakuras zvt plays out when you're a subpar zvt player against the best terran in the world.
Going 3-4 against "the best terran in the world" makes you a "subpar zvt player"?
despite all the gob that artosis pours out of his mouth during nestea matches, nestea is actually very weak against terran.
barely survives virus in ro16 manhandled by gumiho in WCG group stage loses to MVP every time they meet defeated by TOP in super tournament.
he has proven to be very ineffective vs terran
In between that, he has beaten MMA, Sc, Nada and Bomber. Also came to within 1 game of knocking out MVP in the GSL and now blizzcon. Yes ZvT is one of his weak matchups, but you make it sound like hes a mid tier zerg when his z v t is still probably one of top 5 in korea.
On October 23 2011 10:35 windsupernova wrote: Well, just to add to the discussion:
Another tournament dominated by Koreans!
Will the foreigners catch up?
Koreans won both the WoW + SC2 tournaments.... haha.
Koreans weren't favorites in the WoW tournament though, and they haven't been doing much in the scene for a while. OMG did not look like it outclassed the non-Korean teams (can't call them foreigners in WoW), but won in very close matches that could've ended either way, while the other Korean team got eliminated in the group stages.
SC 2... Well let's just say that the closest MVP came to losing to a non-Korean was Toodming's baneling busts.
Did you see goochi's positioning on dalaran arena? Miles and miles ahead of foreigners. Jungyup amazing hunter, clutch sacrifices and freedoms on his paladin. Disengage howl of terror deterrence death coils etc. At least the games I saw they played like fucking monsters :D
Don't know enough about WoW to tell whether they were outplaying the foreigners, but OMG lost to Skill Capped in the group stages and 3-2'd them in the finals. Not exactly results that I'd put up to indicate outclassing.
WoW doesn't have a dominant Korean scene. Of course, WoW doesn't really have a scene... at all! But the statement still stands.
So foreigners can be construed as anyone honestly.
Yeah, that's kind of how I understand it, as well.
Dota has a much bigger eSports scene than WoW
Right on then. WoW has mostly been about PvE, which doesn't really make for very good live events at all. In this way, Europe I guess would be your "Korea" but the gap between nations and continents in that game is a lot smaller than SC1 was, which I am to understand, was quite large.
When I used to play WoW Koreans kinda owned the scene, Remember Orangemarmalade the mage playing RMP? And the sickest comeback at IEM with 2GD casting?
On October 23 2011 10:35 windsupernova wrote: Well, just to add to the discussion:
Another tournament dominated by Koreans!
Will the foreigners catch up?
Koreans won both the WoW + SC2 tournaments.... haha.
Koreans weren't favorites in the WoW tournament though, and they haven't been doing much in the scene for a while. OMG did not look like it outclassed the non-Korean teams (can't call them foreigners in WoW), but won in very close matches that could've ended either way, while the other Korean team got eliminated in the group stages.
SC 2... Well let's just say that the closest MVP came to losing to a non-Korean was Toodming's baneling busts.
Did you see goochi's positioning on dalaran arena? Miles and miles ahead of foreigners. Jungyup amazing hunter, clutch sacrifices and freedoms on his paladin. Disengage howl of terror deterrence death coils etc. At least the games I saw they played like fucking monsters :D
Don't know enough about WoW to tell whether they were outplaying the foreigners, but OMG lost to Skill Capped in the group stages and 3-2'd them in the finals. Not exactly results that I'd put up to indicate outclassing.
WoW doesn't have a dominant Korean scene. Of course, WoW doesn't really have a scene... at all! But the statement still stands.
So foreigners can be construed as anyone honestly.
Yeah, that's kind of how I understand it, as well.
Dota has a much bigger eSports scene than WoW
Right on then. WoW has mostly been about PvE, which doesn't really make for very good live events at all. In this way, Europe I guess would be your "Korea" but the gap between nations and continents in that game is a lot smaller than SC1 was, which I am to understand, was quite large.
When I used to play WoW Koreans kinda owned the scene, Remember Orangemarmalade the mage playing RMP? And the sickest comeback at IEM with 2GD casting?
Yeah europe got the majority of PvE world firsts. When it came to PVP the koreans didn't attend a lot of events but when they did they usually made most other teams look like complete scrubs.
On October 23 2011 10:38 Supdude wrote: The game was entertaining. It's obviously fixed, but hey, they are on the same team. That's the way it is.
MVP took out Sen (rather easily), so Nestea gave him the title. It's a win-win. No wonder Nestea beat MVP so easily earlier.
Of course Nestea would be favored against Sen, too, but it's a much riskier proposition. ZvZ by nature is unpredictable, and Sen's ZvZ is his best matchup.
On October 23 2011 10:05 LetoAtreides82 wrote: [quote]
No they don't, do you even play the game? Ghost are so much more expensive and they shoot slower than marines. The only terran ground unit that's worse against lings than ghosts are Thors without support.
Actually, without detection, ghosts would wreck lings since they do extra damage to light units, They 2 shot lings.
And for each ghost you can get 8 lings without having to spend any gas.
Guess if a ghost can kill 8 lings, and guess which unit remakes the fastest with 15k minerals stockpiled.
I have some news for you: The ghost weren't alone. With PF, tanks, medivac, it doesnt' matter how many lings you have, you will never kill the ghosts.
I have some news for you.
You don't need to only make lings.
The entire argument is a WHAT KONTERS MASS GHOST OMAGID!, and the simple answer is that lings are great against them.
If you're going to go with a match specific encounter, then no shit there are other things to take into account.
Lings vs PF + tanks + ghosts + medivacs aren't a 100% sure way win (especially since the planetary with armor will take minimal damage from lings).
Putting them in drops isn't a sure answer either (they're vulnerable in the overlords).
Nestea broke underpressure and threw away that game. Anyone saying otherwise clearly didn't watch the same game as me.
Let's theorycraft a bit, ok say nestea thought that he could overpower with 27 BLords. Fine! okay... but why send them accross the MIDDLE of the map where whole opposition is? Why not abuse terrain, and send them on top base or bottom base or both for that matter so that mvp cant focus down on them 100% with both ghosts AND vikings. and during that time sneak infestors through the middle. OR! lob infested terrans on the ledges of the bases and use them to keep a distance between MVP's AA and the blords? and resupply with ultras running down the middle? no he decided, ok I am tired of all this nuking and dropping bs and lets end the game with 27 blords down the middle theres no way that TWENTY SEVEN Broods can be sniped RIGHT? WRONG!!!
What do you expect Nestea to do about the Viking in that case? I am guessing Nestea hope was to destroy Ghost+Tank+PF and flood with lings. To hit at production. BL solo will never win an equal eco vs Terran.
On October 23 2011 10:34 NNTP wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:25 Dalavita wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:23 Goldfish wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:20 Dalavita wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:19 Elean wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:17 Dalavita wrote:
On October 23 2011 10:10 NNTP wrote: [quote]
Actually, without detection, ghosts would wreck lings since they do extra damage to light units, They 2 shot lings.
And for each ghost you can get 8 lings without having to spend any gas.
Guess if a ghost can kill 8 lings, and guess which unit remakes the fastest with 15k minerals stockpiled.
I have some news for you: The ghost weren't alone. With PF, tanks, medivac, it doesnt' matter how many lings you have, you will never kill the ghosts.
I have some news for you.
You don't need to only make lings.
The entire argument is a WHAT KONTERS MASS GHOST OMAGID!, and the simple answer is that lings are great against them.
If you're going to go with a match specific encounter, then no shit there are other things to take into account.
Lings vs PF + tanks + ghosts + medivacs aren't a 100% sure way win (especially since the planetary with armor will take minimal damage from lings).
Putting them in drops isn't a sure answer either (they're vulnerable in the overlords).
Did you not read a word I said?
"The entire argument is a WHAT KONTERS MASS GHOST OMAGID!, and the simple answer is that lings are great against them."
P.S Mass roach counters mass ghosts, roaches have ALOT of HP and are armored so do not suffer bonus damage from ghosts and only cost 75\25 to the ghosts' 200\100.
That would have been a great choice too, send blords to the bases draw away parts of the army and sneak roaches in away from the PF and tanks.
Roaches had no upgrades and tie up you supply, One ghost > One Roach.
True he didnt upgrade the roaches but he had 3 armor up which means that he could have sent roaches in to buffer some of the damage and create space and then go in blords at an angle where he only faces vikings OR ghosts not both! Also, vikings cannot do anything to roach and he did have few infestors as back up but were useless as he didnt see where he had to fungal since the first units to breech the line of sigh were the blords followed by the infestors who were quickly emp ed. going through the center was the worst decision he could have made with the units on the map at that point in time.
Nestea could never win the game unless he destroyed the Ghosts PF and Tanks.
Nestea could either go flank and only mean viking (without infestors) and lose all BL without doing anything because not enough eco to go AA + sufficent numbers of BL to kill Ghost or go vs Ghost+Vikings and hope to get Tanks and Ghosts before vikings kill his BL.
The game was over once MVP got center control. This is the how Shakuras plays out ZvT. Nestea had no good options. MVP had nothing but good once at that point.
Yes but I think Nestea had the right idea when he build a nydus on the 7 oclock position with 1 blords in position. he did it that 1 time when he had the 104 banelings then stopped trying that all together as well. what about trying that again with the 20+blords forcing the army defending the middle to either A) go and defend that nydus position or B) unsiege and go for the assault and try to force a base race
or supply send 2-5 blords one side where the nydus is building and pushing with the rest of the blords on the other end of the map and regroup in the middle when the defending army will have moved to intercept. Worst case scenario: MVP decides to defensive nuke 1 of the positions while he deals with the 2nd attacked area. This makes him nuke his production facility where u can also retreat through the nydus. End of the story is that all this is stil theory crafting and also, that mvp broken nestea mentally but thats 1 way nestea could have broken that defensive line of MVP in Shakuras Plateau.
On October 23 2011 10:35 windsupernova wrote: Well, just to add to the discussion:
Another tournament dominated by Koreans!
Will the foreigners catch up?
Koreans won both the WoW + SC2 tournaments.... haha.
Koreans weren't favorites in the WoW tournament though, and they haven't been doing much in the scene for a while. OMG did not look like it outclassed the non-Korean teams (can't call them foreigners in WoW), but won in very close matches that could've ended either way, while the other Korean team got eliminated in the group stages.
SC 2... Well let's just say that the closest MVP came to losing to a non-Korean was Toodming's baneling busts.
Did you see goochi's positioning on dalaran arena? Miles and miles ahead of foreigners. Jungyup amazing hunter, clutch sacrifices and freedoms on his paladin. Disengage howl of terror deterrence death coils etc. At least the games I saw they played like fucking monsters :D
Don't know enough about WoW to tell whether they were outplaying the foreigners, but OMG lost to Skill Capped in the group stages and 3-2'd them in the finals. Not exactly results that I'd put up to indicate outclassing.
WoW doesn't have a dominant Korean scene. Of course, WoW doesn't really have a scene... at all! But the statement still stands.
So foreigners can be construed as anyone honestly.
Yeah, that's kind of how I understand it, as well.
Dota has a much bigger eSports scene than WoW
Right on then. WoW has mostly been about PvE, which doesn't really make for very good live events at all. In this way, Europe I guess would be your "Korea" but the gap between nations and continents in that game is a lot smaller than SC1 was, which I am to understand, was quite large.
When I used to play WoW Koreans kinda owned the scene, Remember Orangemarmalade the mage playing RMP? And the sickest comeback at IEM with 2GD casting?
WoW PvP is a mixed bag in general.
I think they are kind of onto something with those rated battlegrounds though. if only it wasnt so unbelievably late.
On October 23 2011 10:38 Supdude wrote: The game was entertaining. It's obviously fixed, but hey, they are on the same team. That's the way it is.
MVP took out Sen (rather easily), so Nestea gave him the title. It's a win-win. No wonder Nestea beat MVP so easily earlier.
Of course Nestea would be favored against Sen, too, but it's a much riskier proposition. ZvZ by nature is unpredictable, and Sen's ZvZ is his best matchup.
Dimaga is the only zerg to ever beat him in a televised series. I'm pretty sure he loses single matches here and there, but implying Sen is a tougher opponent than MVP is insane and crazy. Sen beating NesTea is equally unlikely to happen as Sen beating MVP.
EPT
