Watch how you approach the topic of match fixing. You can speculate, saying "I'm not so sure about the finals, something doesn't sit right with me," but if you are going to outright accuse players of match fixing you need something more than your word.
TL takes match fixing/abuse seriously and as such there is a burden a proof when you are accusing players.
On October 23 2011 10:38 Supdude wrote: The game was entertaining. It's obviously fixed, but hey, they are on the same team. That's the way it is.
MVP took out Sen (rather easily), so Nestea gave him the title. It's a win-win. No wonder Nestea beat MVP so easily earlier.
Of course Nestea would be favored against Sen, too, but it's a much riskier proposition. ZvZ by nature is unpredictable, and Sen's ZvZ is his best matchup.
Now it all makes sense
Are you crazy? NesTea doesn't lose in ZvZ man
Against Korean zergs that's true. He has lost matches to Dimaga and Sen. Sen's zvz is very good. Watch Sen beat Nestea:
Isn't this just a ladder game -_-. Nestea screws around on ladder either ways.
He has had sub 50% win rates on ladder... So that means very little.
On October 23 2011 10:35 windsupernova wrote: Well, just to add to the discussion:
Another tournament dominated by Koreans!
Will the foreigners catch up?
Koreans won both the WoW + SC2 tournaments.... haha.
Koreans weren't favorites in the WoW tournament though, and they haven't been doing much in the scene for a while. OMG did not look like it outclassed the non-Korean teams (can't call them foreigners in WoW), but won in very close matches that could've ended either way, while the other Korean team got eliminated in the group stages.
SC 2... Well let's just say that the closest MVP came to losing to a non-Korean was Toodming's baneling busts.
Did you see goochi's positioning on dalaran arena? Miles and miles ahead of foreigners. Jungyup amazing hunter, clutch sacrifices and freedoms on his paladin. Disengage howl of terror deterrence death coils etc. At least the games I saw they played like fucking monsters :D
Don't know enough about WoW to tell whether they were outplaying the foreigners, but OMG lost to Skill Capped in the group stages and 3-2'd them in the finals. Not exactly results that I'd put up to indicate outclassing.
WoW doesn't have a dominant Korean scene. Of course, WoW doesn't really have a scene... at all! But the statement still stands.
So foreigners can be construed as anyone honestly.
Yeah, that's kind of how I understand it, as well.
Dota has a much bigger eSports scene than WoW
Right on then. WoW has mostly been about PvE, which doesn't really make for very good live events at all. In this way, Europe I guess would be your "Korea" but the gap between nations and continents in that game is a lot smaller than SC1 was, which I am to understand, was quite large.
When I used to play WoW Koreans kinda owned the scene, Remember Orangemarmalade the mage playing RMP? And the sickest comeback at IEM with 2GD casting?
Yeah europe got the majority of PvE world firsts. When it came to PVP the koreans didn't attend a lot of events but when they did they usually made most other teams look like complete scrubs.
You shouldn't look at just the firsts really. It is most fair to look at the distribution as a whole.
Also take into account that Europe opens servers after patches faster than everyone else. Currently, that matters.
On October 23 2011 10:38 Supdude wrote: The game was entertaining. It's obviously fixed, but hey, they are on the same team. That's the way it is.
MVP took out Sen (rather easily), so Nestea gave him the title. It's a win-win. No wonder Nestea beat MVP so easily earlier.
Of course Nestea would be favored against Sen, too, but it's a much riskier proposition. ZvZ by nature is unpredictable, and Sen's ZvZ is his best matchup.
Now it all makes sense
Huh? That doesn't make any sense. Why would NesTea let MVP win if MVP beat Sen? Am I missing something here? Are you being sarcastic? Also, even if they had agreed to split the prize money beforehand, why would he just willingly give up the prestige that comes with winning the whole tournament? All you conspirators are also forgetting that the korean culture is quite different. If they had really fixed the outcome, it would've been NesTea winning the whole thing since he's the senior and holds authority over MVP.
People need to stop with this match-fixing bullshit now.
there is no conspiracy. it's just people failing to realize how a split map shakuras zvt plays out when you're a subpar zvt player against the best terran in the world.
Going 3-4 against "the best terran in the world" makes you a "subpar zvt player"?
despite all the gob that artosis pours out of his mouth during nestea matches, nestea is actually very weak against terran.
barely survives virus in ro16 manhandled by gumiho in WCG group stage loses to MVP every time they meet defeated by TOP in super tournament.
he has proven to be very ineffective vs terran
In between that, he has beaten MMA, Sc, Nada and Bomber. Also came to within 1 game of knocking out MVP in the GSL and now blizzcon. Yes ZvT is one of his weak matchups, but you make it sound like hes a mid tier zerg when his z v t is still probably one of top 5 in korea.
there are probably only five zergs worth mentioning in korea at the moment as it stands. being the fifth best at zvt is not an accomplishment in my eyes.
people need to know that nestea is not indeed god and he will be exposed for what his zvt really is, exactly what we saw tonight.
I *hope* this won't warrant a ban. The way I see it, the match was *definitely* not fixed, but the feeling I got was that neither player cared about the outcome in the way they would have in, say, a GSL final. The play was rather silly, to be honest, and from what I read (I am neither willing nor able to pull any sources, so have at me) prize money is often distributed to the team as a whole - meaning that neither player had that much to fight for. My impression (which was indiependently shared by my friends who discussed the match as it happened) was that the players were taking the piss out of each other, with MVP eventually being impolite enough to win.
Blizzcon weekend was good (even had me neglecting some RL responsibilities to watch games) but I'm sad to see it end up like this. It kind of adds up with them not casting tons of intriguing matches and using the sub-par map-pool that they did.
I suppose it was nice, but it could - easily, and with little investment - have been tons better. I'm just left feeling somewhat disappointed. Yes, it was good, but it could have been so much better.
Good thing a friend tuned in just before me (as the crowd was apparently chanting MVP's name) to warn me to immediately rewind back to xx:xx to watch the grand finals unspoiled.
On October 23 2011 10:38 Supdude wrote: The game was entertaining. It's obviously fixed, but hey, they are on the same team. That's the way it is.
MVP took out Sen (rather easily), so Nestea gave him the title. It's a win-win. No wonder Nestea beat MVP so easily earlier.
Of course Nestea would be favored against Sen, too, but it's a much riskier proposition. ZvZ by nature is unpredictable, and Sen's ZvZ is his best matchup.
Now it all makes sense
Huh? That doesn't make any sense. Why would NesTea let MVP win if MVP beat Sen? Am I missing something here? Are you being sarcastic? Also, even if they had agreed to split the prize money beforehand, why would he just willingly give up the prestige that comes with winning the whole tournament? All you conspirators are also forgetting that the korean culture is quite different. If they had really fixed the outcome, it would've been NesTea winning the whole thing since he's the senior and holds authority over MVP.
People need to stop with this match-fixing bullshit now.
there is no conspiracy. it's just people failing to realize how a split map shakuras zvt plays out when you're a subpar zvt player against the best terran in the world.
Going 3-4 against "the best terran in the world" makes you a "subpar zvt player"?
despite all the gob that artosis pours out of his mouth during nestea matches, nestea is actually very weak against terran.
barely survives virus in ro16 manhandled by gumiho in WCG group stage loses to MVP every time they meet defeated by TOP in super tournament.
he has proven to be very ineffective vs terran
In between that, he has beaten MMA, Sc, Nada and Bomber. Also came to within 1 game of knocking out MVP in the GSL and now blizzcon. Yes ZvT is one of his weak matchups, but you make it sound like hes a mid tier zerg when his z v t is still probably one of top 5 in korea.
there are probably only five zergs worth mentioning in korea at the moment as it stands. being the fifth best at zvt is not an accomplishment in my eyes.
people need to know that nestea is not indeed god and he will be exposed for what his zvt really is, exactly what we saw tonight.
There are some ok numbers for zerg though. According to TLPD, 3 of the first 5 are zergs.
Although the top ten are indeed 3 zergs and 7 terrans.
Koreans won both the WoW + SC2 tournaments.... haha.
Koreans weren't favorites in the WoW tournament though, and they haven't been doing much in the scene for a while. OMG did not look like it outclassed the non-Korean teams (can't call them foreigners in WoW), but won in very close matches that could've ended either way, while the other Korean team got eliminated in the group stages.
SC 2... Well let's just say that the closest MVP came to losing to a non-Korean was Toodming's baneling busts.
Did you see goochi's positioning on dalaran arena? Miles and miles ahead of foreigners. Jungyup amazing hunter, clutch sacrifices and freedoms on his paladin. Disengage howl of terror deterrence death coils etc. At least the games I saw they played like fucking monsters :D
Don't know enough about WoW to tell whether they were outplaying the foreigners, but OMG lost to Skill Capped in the group stages and 3-2'd them in the finals. Not exactly results that I'd put up to indicate outclassing.
WoW doesn't have a dominant Korean scene. Of course, WoW doesn't really have a scene... at all! But the statement still stands.
So foreigners can be construed as anyone honestly.
Yeah, that's kind of how I understand it, as well.
Dota has a much bigger eSports scene than WoW
Right on then. WoW has mostly been about PvE, which doesn't really make for very good live events at all. In this way, Europe I guess would be your "Korea" but the gap between nations and continents in that game is a lot smaller than SC1 was, which I am to understand, was quite large.
When I used to play WoW Koreans kinda owned the scene, Remember Orangemarmalade the mage playing RMP? And the sickest comeback at IEM with 2GD casting?
Yeah europe got the majority of PvE world firsts. When it came to PVP the koreans didn't attend a lot of events but when they did they usually made most other teams look like complete scrubs.
You shouldn't look at just the firsts really. It is most fair to look at the distribution as a whole.
Also take into account that Europe opens servers after patches faster than everyone else. Currently, that matters.
I don't know why are we talking about WoW on a LR thread, but US servers get patches 24h ahead of EU.
Koreans weren't favorites in the WoW tournament though, and they haven't been doing much in the scene for a while. OMG did not look like it outclassed the non-Korean teams (can't call them foreigners in WoW), but won in very close matches that could've ended either way, while the other Korean team got eliminated in the group stages.
SC 2... Well let's just say that the closest MVP came to losing to a non-Korean was Toodming's baneling busts.
Did you see goochi's positioning on dalaran arena? Miles and miles ahead of foreigners. Jungyup amazing hunter, clutch sacrifices and freedoms on his paladin. Disengage howl of terror deterrence death coils etc. At least the games I saw they played like fucking monsters :D
Don't know enough about WoW to tell whether they were outplaying the foreigners, but OMG lost to Skill Capped in the group stages and 3-2'd them in the finals. Not exactly results that I'd put up to indicate outclassing.
WoW doesn't have a dominant Korean scene. Of course, WoW doesn't really have a scene... at all! But the statement still stands.
So foreigners can be construed as anyone honestly.
Yeah, that's kind of how I understand it, as well.
Dota has a much bigger eSports scene than WoW
Right on then. WoW has mostly been about PvE, which doesn't really make for very good live events at all. In this way, Europe I guess would be your "Korea" but the gap between nations and continents in that game is a lot smaller than SC1 was, which I am to understand, was quite large.
When I used to play WoW Koreans kinda owned the scene, Remember Orangemarmalade the mage playing RMP? And the sickest comeback at IEM with 2GD casting?
Yeah europe got the majority of PvE world firsts. When it came to PVP the koreans didn't attend a lot of events but when they did they usually made most other teams look like complete scrubs.
You shouldn't look at just the firsts really. It is most fair to look at the distribution as a whole.
Also take into account that Europe opens servers after patches faster than everyone else. Currently, that matters.
I don't know why are we talking about WoW on a LR thread, but US servers get patches 24h ahead of EU.
Hasn't been that way for a very... very long time. I am not even talking about stability, I could though. Your still right though.
YOU people who said this match got fixed is stupid or completely ignored, we have to take a lot into account the decision of nestea in this game, He did not have maphack like we all see as an Observer, He just lose in the war of multitasking, which is always nestea weakness, and to people who said why he did not bring Infestor to fungle the ghost.
WTF did you guys forgot ghost have EMP, he did BRING 5 infestors and all of them are EMPed, and he cant stay longer because the longer he was turtling the better the Terran become, It is 6 base vs 4 base situation in Shakura Plateau when TvZ become split map, because terran can do so much stuff to take Zerg base out, Drop Nuke safdsafdsf, what do you guys think he could have done there, Mass bling Zergling ???? MVP HAS TANK + PF I knew mass ling would counter GHOST but masslings <<<<<<<< PF + tank in middle of the map. He tried Ultralisks, but ghost raped them too, what else??? late game muta are not effective, infestor get EMP... what else....hmm I am trying to remember something,... Zerg has zergling, baneling, queen, roach, hydra, infestor, muta, corruptor, ultralisk, broodlord. Ah Roach hydra hahaha, Can you imagine roach hydra against terran with tank PF and have trilions tons of barracks. Give me a solution to counter that please, someone ssaid produce and reproduce mass zergling and banelings, It is extremely risky and gimmicky against PF + tank in middle of the map like that, ghost are not good against them but not that terrible. He have to make a decision and he chose infestors broodlords, which result in a loss because all of infestor get EMP and broodlords get snipe by Ghost and dont forget guys 20 viking on MVP side.
Someone said the doomdrop did no damage and he leave a lot of banelings in the overlord, I think his purpose was to leave them there and drop them over the ghost and tank, But he forgot or did not expect the overlord to be sniped that fast by ghost before reaching them.
And also, he did rebuild his base but he got completely nuked and drop to death......he did bank 13k + 6k gas, but when he GG did you see his mineral and gas ??? all < 1000, it is the cost of 27 Blords. And while MVP did not bank 13k but also about 5k min 4k gas, and while on 6 base with no way the zerg can punish.
This match is not fixed, people who thinks it is fixed just completely forgot how difficult it is to remain calm and make perfect decision under the pressure.
He get nuked 3 places at ONCE while getting drop at 3 different places. How can he react to that, Plus Ghost have cloaked and he did not knew when he is nuked.
which is a difference of +12,745 minerals & 970 gas in favor of Nestea
Nestea had such a huge macro lead and plenty of gas to spend on whatever tech path he wanted as well as an already built spine crawler line to buy time to remax, yet the only time he ever tried to "trade armies" was his awful drop attempt that was not a trade at all and resulted in tons of banelings, ultralisks, and overlords being lost. He even microed his overlords to the top of MVP's base instead of away while he was supply blocked due to his massive failure of a drop.
guess what might have happened if Nestea decided to unload the banelings inside of those overlords?
Nestea isn't a god but he definitely can play better than what he did against MVP on Shakuras. I have no idea how people consider the game to be epic unless they just watch SC2 on a casual basis.
For the supposed player with the best game sense in the world Nestea made a lot of weird choices that game. From those mass banelings, to not spining all his expos up like crazy, to the 18 BLs in the end, that was really disappointing. He knew about all those PFs and tank line that MVP was forming in the middle yet he morphed 100 banelings (Which did nothing in the end)! He was just careless with his units and his bases for that matter. He could've made a ton of BLs + corrupters + infestors instead. At least, even if he lost all his BLs and some of his corrupters he could've really trimmed down MVP's viking count and ghost counts, or he could've cleared the tank and PF line in the middle to prepare for an ultra switch or could've moved in with BLs while nydusing or dropping MVP's expansions with cracklings. I'm sure he was thinking a few steps ahead though which makes understanding his decision process a little difficult. Or he was just playing stubborn and frustrated. How many times has he gone roach bling drop all in, to drop his army on the most defended part of the terran's base with bunkers, only to lose?
It's pretty rare to see Nestea in the late to late game anyway so it's hard to gauge how good he actually is in that stage of the game. Not many games even get to that period in the first place. At least in that game we can say that MVP outmultitasked Nestea with his drop play and ghost play, and that Nestea displayed a lot of poor decisions.
On October 23 2011 10:38 Supdude wrote: The game was entertaining. It's obviously fixed, but hey, they are on the same team. That's the way it is.
MVP took out Sen (rather easily), so Nestea gave him the title. It's a win-win. No wonder Nestea beat MVP so easily earlier.
Of course Nestea would be favored against Sen, too, but it's a much riskier proposition. ZvZ by nature is unpredictable, and Sen's ZvZ is his best matchup.
Now it all makes sense
Huh? That doesn't make any sense. Why would NesTea let MVP win if MVP beat Sen? Am I missing something here? Are you being sarcastic? Also, even if they had agreed to split the prize money beforehand, why would he just willingly give up the prestige that comes with winning the whole tournament? All you conspirators are also forgetting that the korean culture is quite different. If they had really fixed the outcome, it would've been NesTea winning the whole thing since he's the senior and holds authority over MVP.
People need to stop with this match-fixing bullshit now.
there is no conspiracy. it's just people failing to realize how a split map shakuras zvt plays out when you're a subpar zvt player against the best terran in the world.
Going 3-4 against "the best terran in the world" makes you a "subpar zvt player"?
despite all the gob that artosis pours out of his mouth during nestea matches, nestea is actually very weak against terran.
barely survives virus in ro16 manhandled by gumiho in WCG group stage loses to MVP every time they meet defeated by TOP in super tournament.
he has proven to be very ineffective vs terran
In between that, he has beaten MMA, Sc, Nada and Bomber. Also came to within 1 game of knocking out MVP in the GSL and now blizzcon. Yes ZvT is one of his weak matchups, but you make it sound like hes a mid tier zerg when his z v t is still probably one of top 5 in korea.
there are probably only five zergs worth mentioning in korea at the moment as it stands. being the fifth best at zvt is not an accomplishment in my eyes.
people need to know that nestea is not indeed god and he will be exposed for what his zvt really is, exactly what we saw tonight.
There are some ok numbers for zerg though. According to TLPD, 3 of the first 5 are zergs.
Although the top ten are indeed 3 zergs and 7 terrans.
i'm not a nestea hater, but people are living in this crazy delusion that he is invincible when in fact he rode to his most recent GSL finals on a terran light path and it created massive hype for something that doesn't exist anymore.
On October 23 2011 10:38 Supdude wrote: The game was entertaining. It's obviously fixed, but hey, they are on the same team. That's the way it is.
MVP took out Sen (rather easily), so Nestea gave him the title. It's a win-win. No wonder Nestea beat MVP so easily earlier.
Of course Nestea would be favored against Sen, too, but it's a much riskier proposition. ZvZ by nature is unpredictable, and Sen's ZvZ is his best matchup.
Now it all makes sense
Huh? That doesn't make any sense. Why would NesTea let MVP win if MVP beat Sen? Am I missing something here? Are you being sarcastic? Also, even if they had agreed to split the prize money beforehand, why would he just willingly give up the prestige that comes with winning the whole tournament? All you conspirators are also forgetting that the korean culture is quite different. If they had really fixed the outcome, it would've been NesTea winning the whole thing since he's the senior and holds authority over MVP.
People need to stop with this match-fixing bullshit now.
there is no conspiracy. it's just people failing to realize how a split map shakuras zvt plays out when you're a subpar zvt player against the best terran in the world.
Going 3-4 against "the best terran in the world" makes you a "subpar zvt player"?
despite all the gob that artosis pours out of his mouth during nestea matches, nestea is actually very weak against terran.
barely survives virus in ro16 manhandled by gumiho in WCG group stage loses to MVP every time they meet defeated by TOP in super tournament.
he has proven to be very ineffective vs terran
In between that, he has beaten MMA, Sc, Nada and Bomber. Also came to within 1 game of knocking out MVP in the GSL and now blizzcon. Yes ZvT is one of his weak matchups, but you make it sound like hes a mid tier zerg when his z v t is still probably one of top 5 in korea.
I mean, it's not hard to be Top 5 ZvT in Korea when there are so few Zergs good at ZvT in the GSL, if you know what I mean. =/
He's beaten MMA in one game (while MMA has beaten him in one game as well and twice in the AoL, which I don't know how to weigh). sC threw the last game of his series away; anyone who thinks otherwise needs to rewatch it, because sC clearly stopped trying when he thought he'd won. NaDa's TvZ is poor; he lost to Moon, who has been practicing War3 for the WCG, recently at a LAN in China, and Bomber plays a less-than-efficient TvZ style where he just tries to turtle and outmax the Zerg, a style that gives him losses to far inferior Zerg players (see: games against IdrA, Moon, and Destiny).
I don't want to say he's terrible at ZvT, but he's clearly struggling in the match-up. When you almost get beat by Virus, who has admitted that ZvT is also one of his weaker match-ups, then you can't really say you're particularly good at ZvT.
On October 23 2011 10:38 Supdude wrote: The game was entertaining. It's obviously fixed, but hey, they are on the same team. That's the way it is.
MVP took out Sen (rather easily), so Nestea gave him the title. It's a win-win. No wonder Nestea beat MVP so easily earlier.
Of course Nestea would be favored against Sen, too, but it's a much riskier proposition. ZvZ by nature is unpredictable, and Sen's ZvZ is his best matchup.
Now it all makes sense
Huh? That doesn't make any sense. Why would NesTea let MVP win if MVP beat Sen? Am I missing something here? Are you being sarcastic? Also, even if they had agreed to split the prize money beforehand, why would he just willingly give up the prestige that comes with winning the whole tournament? All you conspirators are also forgetting that the korean culture is quite different. If they had really fixed the outcome, it would've been NesTea winning the whole thing since he's the senior and holds authority over MVP.
People need to stop with this match-fixing bullshit now.
there is no conspiracy. it's just people failing to realize how a split map shakuras zvt plays out when you're a subpar zvt player against the best terran in the world.
Going 3-4 against "the best terran in the world" makes you a "subpar zvt player"?
despite all the gob that artosis pours out of his mouth during nestea matches, nestea is actually very weak against terran.
barely survives virus in ro16 manhandled by gumiho in WCG group stage loses to MVP every time they meet defeated by TOP in super tournament.
he has proven to be very ineffective vs terran
In between that, he has beaten MMA, Sc, Nada and Bomber. Also came to within 1 game of knocking out MVP in the GSL and now blizzcon. Yes ZvT is one of his weak matchups, but you make it sound like hes a mid tier zerg when his z v t is still probably one of top 5 in korea.
there are probably only five zergs worth mentioning in korea at the moment as it stands. being the fifth best at zvt is not an accomplishment in my eyes.
people need to know that nestea is not indeed god and he will be exposed for what his zvt really is, exactly what we saw tonight.
On October 23 2011 11:10 ZeromuS wrote: I was just able to tune in. What happened?
Nestea does pretty good harass in midgame, doesn't do anything for the longest of times, gets dropped a lot, nuked etc etc until he has banked up 15k/6kish resources and meets the best possible 200/200 army of terran and gets crushed. The short version. Inbetween you have failed doomdrop, spotted nydus, unsupported 8 BLs and later unsupported 27 BLs.
![[image loading]](http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/1755/macrolead3.png)
![[image loading]](http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/594/overlords.png)
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