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Watch how you approach the topic of match fixing. You can speculate, saying "I'm not so sure about the finals, something doesn't sit right with me," but if you are going to outright accuse players of match fixing you need something more than your word.
TL takes match fixing/abuse seriously and as such there is a burden a proof when you are accusing players.
- p4NDemik |
On October 23 2011 10:24 QuantumPhysX wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:23 Ciraxis wrote:On October 23 2011 10:21 QuantumPhysX wrote:
Guys, look at it this way.....
Blizzcon Tournament - Showmatch
GSL Finals - Real Tournament Yes, despite that I would not like to think of it that way, the evidence proves otherwise. What evidence are you talking about?
I would like to think of Blizzcon as the "main" tournament just because that's why everyone is there, and that's why 16 invited players have arrived to participate competitively. Blizzcon has the most matches, whereas GSL has only one match and for that reason it should be considered the "showmatch".
However, the evidence that I speak of is the lack of Blizzard's own coverage for Blizzcon streaming matches and the HUGE crowd spectacular for the GSL finals over Blizzcon, which is why it appears in fact that Blizzcon is the "showmatch" and GSL the "real tournament".
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ok, i want to know now what is purpose of bisu, jaedong, fantasy and jangbi
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On October 23 2011 10:35 Jakkerr wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:31 slicknav wrote:On October 23 2011 10:27 Jakkerr wrote:On October 23 2011 10:25 Tump wrote:
I can't believe the amount of whine, and suggesting that this match was rigged.
Ghosts are EASILY killed by Mass Lings, remember the game where Darkforce and MVP got to the late game and the exact same scenario happened? MVP was easily cleaned up with mass Ling. Nestea messed up, bad. Even a mid tier foreigner had an answer for this. That's exactly why people are suggesting it, why would the best zerg/player in the world make 28 brood lords in the final game of the tournament vs mass viking ghost. He plays atleast 30 games per day I'm pretty sure Nestea knows how to play vs anything. Anyway it was a nice showmatch, gn people. You can't just look at what unit counters what other units. You have to look at the position MVP was in. Tanks/Marines spread out perfectly in the middle with a PF even. How do you get mass lings past this? The ghosts were kept behind the line until they needed to engage. If Nestea just threw 100 lings at that to kill the ghosts, it probably would not have working. I agree 100% man, but that brings up another question. What should Nestea do? He has half the map his opponent has half the map, he has 14k minerals banked but he seemed completely hopeless. What could he have done to win it, or does TvZ become unwinnable for Z after the 25 minute mark? (just a question I don't play T or Z, not a balance complaint)
nestea wins the final engagement if he manages to fungal all the ghosts. he just sucked at controlling his units.
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On October 23 2011 10:35 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:31 NNTP wrote:On October 23 2011 10:23 Goldfish wrote:On October 23 2011 10:20 Dalavita wrote:On October 23 2011 10:19 Elean wrote:On October 23 2011 10:17 Dalavita wrote:On October 23 2011 10:10 NNTP wrote:On October 23 2011 10:05 LetoAtreides82 wrote:On October 23 2011 09:45 tlrocksss wrote:On October 23 2011 09:44 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
[quote]
It's countered by the tier 1...... Ghost counter lings. No they don't, do you even play the game? Ghost are so much more expensive and they shoot slower than marines. The only terran ground unit that's worse against lings than ghosts are Thors without support. Actually, without detection, ghosts would wreck lings since they do extra damage to light units, They 2 shot lings. And for each ghost you can get 8 lings without having to spend any gas. Guess if a ghost can kill 8 lings, and guess which unit remakes the fastest with 15k minerals stockpiled. I have some news for you: The ghost weren't alone. With PF, tanks, medivac, it doesnt' matter how many lings you have, you will never kill the ghosts. I have some news for you. You don't need to only make lings. The entire argument is a WHAT KONTERS MASS GHOST OMAGID!, and the simple answer is that lings are great against them. If you're going to go with a match specific encounter, then no shit there are other things to take into account. Lings vs PF + tanks + ghosts + medivacs aren't a 100% sure way win (especially since the planetary with armor will take minimal damage from lings). Putting them in drops isn't a sure answer either (they're vulnerable in the overlords). Nestea broke underpressure and threw away that game. Anyone saying otherwise clearly didn't watch the same game as me. Let's theorycraft a bit, ok say nestea thought that he could overpower with 27 BLords. Fine! okay... but why send them accross the MIDDLE of the map where whole opposition is? Why not abuse terrain, and send them on top base or bottom base or both for that matter so that mvp cant focus down on them 100% with both ghosts AND vikings. and during that time sneak infestors through the middle. OR! lob infested terrans on the ledges of the bases and use them to keep a distance between MVP's AA and the blords? and resupply with ultras running down the middle? no he decided, ok I am tired of all this nuking and dropping bs and lets end the game with 27 blords down the middle theres no way that TWENTY SEVEN Broods can be sniped RIGHT? WRONG!!! What do you expect Nestea to do about the Viking in that case? I am guessing Nestea hope was to destroy Ghost+Tank+PF and flood with lings. To hit at production. BL solo will never win an equal eco vs Terran.
Current game balance suggests some sort of Corrupter Broodlord Infestor combination with another unit. Unfortunately this option does not trade as efficiently as it probably should, at least from a raw numbers standpoint. It is a minor quirk in the game however since this only takes place once terran has an overmaxed army (post SCV sacrifice), which is not very common.
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The game was entertaining. It's obviously fixed, but hey, they are on the same team. That's the way it is.
MVP took out Sen (rather easily), so Nestea gave him the title. It's a win-win. No wonder Nestea beat MVP so easily earlier.
Of course Nestea would be favored against Sen, too, but it's a much riskier proposition. ZvZ by nature is unpredictable, and Sen's ZvZ is his best matchup.
Now it all makes sense
User was warned for this post
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On October 23 2011 10:36 cold- wrote:
nestea needed lings infestor + 2-3 overseers . and of course max upgrades which he already had i think xcept adrenal not sure. ummm yeah
u cant go broodlords and expect to defeat mass ghosts. mass zergling on the other hand will crush them and infestors would make at least a part of the ghosts unable to retreat. this leads also to all the vikings on the field being somewhat useless.
Well to be honest with 18 ghosts on the field the chance of you getting a successful fungal off is quite low. He still should've tried more though. Think he could have won if he got a fungal on all those ghosts.
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On October 23 2011 10:20 dan1mal wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 23 2011 10:17 tns wrote:
when you're on TV everything has to be positive, you have to smile, to congratz, to say that the last game was so amazing...
But I think it wasn't a given game on purpose... when his greater spire was done... He had enough BL but went for the production facilities... and that was game... he killed a CC, few buildings... not much... the ghosts saved the base but MVP lost almost nothing of his army
That was the wrong decision... that was supposed to be the fight with these BL... where was the fight?
For every Zerg and NesTea fans... yes that last game was so poor... these tanks at the center map were there forever... there wasn't even a PF when he morphed the BL
Then he tried Nydus, switched to Ultra and did a doom drop to kill supply depots and a rax or two...
same thing he almost killed nothing of the army...
why sacrificing his army for few buildings when army are never trade...
Maybe NesTea was pissed off himself when he knew he would not win vs a max terran who never lost his center position (his tanks in other words...)
that game was poor... because we expected so much from the god of zerg... T^T
NesTea might want to wait till HotS before beeing bonjwa because wol if for terrans (ha ha...) try to make sense next time
I don't know where I wasn't clear T^T ?
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Switzerland2892 Posts
On October 23 2011 10:35 windsupernova wrote:
Well, just to add to the discussion:
Another tournament dominated by Koreans!
Will the foreigners catch up?
Naniwa looked so solid during this tournament, didn't see any game (except game 1 vs major, but yeah an all in) where he wasn't extremly solid (at the same time didn,t see much of him :/)
He lost to sen but overall he is 3-2 vs him at blizzcon.
Pretty sure he has code s potential.
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I don't think its far fetched that they planned on splitting the pot and played that last game just to show cool explosions and shit for the crowd. It was seriously awful play from Nestea for a good portion of the game. If it was one or two small mistakes, sure, but he made a dozen huge ones. The entire way he was approaching the match was different than how he normally does.
I don't think it's a bad thing if they planned to split the pot, and I'm not saying that Nestea would have won if he played normally, but that was clearly not them playing at their best. It might even be good for SC2 to showcase some big explosions to a crowd of potential fans.
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On October 23 2011 10:37 purgerinho wrote:
ok, i want to know now what is purpose of bisu, jaedong, fantasy and jangbi
So they can report back to their teams about how good the SC2 skill level is? /sarcasm
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On October 23 2011 10:20 Larias wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:18 gogonow wrote:On October 23 2011 10:13 Larias wrote:
Crowd seemed to love it, but Nestea gave the game to MVP. The last game was nothing more than a showmatch. Undoubtedly why MVP ran off the stage after winning. Undoubtedly? If it was a showmatch, that's a weird fucking thing to do. He knew Nestea gifted it to him. He wanted to win it legitimately. Any other suggestions as to why he did that? He sure as hell wasn't smiling.
Did you see his demeanour right after the victory? The sigh of relief? The fist pump into the air after walking off to the backstage?
Smiling? Do you know that some people don't smile after winning? That's possible in this strange little world of ours, you know?
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1.if they were splitting the money, who cares who won? they would still get the money and still had the title to fight for.
2. Nestea didn't know how much money/production MVP was sitting on
3.Nestea knows as well as we do what happened to savior, he's the best Z in the world, why risk getting banned for life over this game?
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On October 23 2011 10:39 Stanlot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:37 purgerinho wrote:
ok, i want to know now what is purpose of bisu, jaedong, fantasy and jangbi So they can report back to their teams about how good the SC2 skill level is? /sarcasm
They watched MVP vs. MMA too, right?
I mean, that wasn't the best either, but it sure as hell beat the Blizzcon finals!
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On October 23 2011 10:39 Stanlot wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:37 purgerinho wrote:
ok, i want to know now what is purpose of bisu, jaedong, fantasy and jangbi So they can report back to their teams about how good the SC2 skill level is? /sarcasm
Umm, sarcasm isn't really necessary to be honest. I guess that would spoil the joke though.
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On October 23 2011 10:24 LetoAtreides82 wrote:
1) He did at first but then he stopped, why? He had plenty of resources for it.
It's hard to make spines when your replacement hatchery is not up yet and all your drones have been killed, don't you think?
2) It might have worked if the broodlings could see the ghosts, but Nestea didn't bother to bring overseers. Also some air support would have been nice against those vikings don't you think?
Had he known about the vikings the moment he morphed those brood lords, he probably would've. As I've mentioned before, everybody makes sound strategic decisions on maphack.
3) Doomdrop was a good idea, Nestea just executed it at bronze level. Didn't drop everything, left units like ultralisks at the corner of MVP's main not doing anything. Had a ton of banelings inside overlords that he didn't bother dropping. He pulled the overlords to MVP's army without dropping, pretty much telling MVP please kill my overlords filled with expensive units.
He pulled the overlords because he wanted to do a baneling bomb drop. He had a totally huge amount of baneling bombs, he just didn't take into account how badly ghost snipes would decimate his overlord count. His drop plan was very sound - ultralisks soak up damage while baneling bombs kill everything else. It just didn't work well because of the mass snipes.
4) Giant waves of lings and blings could have torn that up. Takes only 16 blings to kill a PF, at one point in the game Nestea had like 120 banelings. Nestea had more than enough resources to send nonstop waves of ling blings.
Giant waves of lings and blings are cute unless they're first weakened by like 10 tanks firing at them. Throwing away banelings at the PF blockade in the middle would be just that - throwing them away. It would take the 100 banelings to even kill that one PF with all the tank barrage and the thors. In case you didn't count that, 100 banelings is 5000 minerals / 2500 gas - not exactly pocket change, even for the situation Nestea was in. Plus, morphing banelings takes time, and if he throws a limit of banelings away, MVP instantly unsieges and steamrolls all his expansions.
5) That's the key point, he let the drops do damage. He stopped fungaling the dropships, he stopped making mutas, he let his hatches fall and he didn't remake them even though he had tons of resources.
He let the drops do damage simply due to the sheer numbers and laws of probability - one of them got through, did the damage, Nestea was forced to divert attention to repairing the damage and that allowed MVP to start winning the multitasking war. When looking from an observer's viewpoint, it's easy to overlook how insanely hard it is to perfectly multitask defenses against multipronged attacks that happen in like 6 places at ones for 20 minutes non-stop while planning an attack at the same time.
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On October 23 2011 10:40 Ingebrigtsen wrote:
1.if they were splitting the money, who cares who won? they would still get the money and still had the title to fight for.
2. Nestea didn't know how much money/production MVP was sitting on
3.Nestea knows as well as we do what happened to savior, he's the best Z in the world, why risk getting banned for life over this game?
Savior was doing something way more dastardly. He was in cahoots with gambling parlors that were illegal to begin with. The comparison is way unfair.
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On October 23 2011 10:36 Toppp wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:35 windsupernova wrote:
Well, just to add to the discussion:
Another tournament dominated by Koreans!
Will the foreigners catch up? Koreans won both the WoW + SC2 tournaments.... haha.
Koreans weren't favorites in the WoW tournament though, and they haven't been doing much in the scene for a while. OMG did not look like it outclassed the non-Korean teams (can't call them foreigners in WoW), but won in very close matches that could've ended either way, while the other Korean team got eliminated in the group stages.
SC 2... Well let's just say that the closest MVP came to losing to a non-Korean was Toodming's baneling busts.
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On October 23 2011 10:39 lolnoty wrote:
I don't think its far fetched that they planned on splitting the pot and played that last game just to show cool explosions and shit for the crowd. It was seriously awful play from Nestea for a good portion of the game. If it was one or two small mistakes, sure, but he made a dozen huge ones. The entire way he was approaching the match was different than how he normally does.
I don't think it's a bad thing if they planned to split the pot, and I'm not saying that Nestea would have won if he played normally, but that was clearly not them playing at their best. It might even be good for SC2 to showcase some big explosions to a crowd of potential fans.
This. Blizzcon was full of non-sc2 players, and honestly, making a spectacle of the game is gonna get alot more people into it. Which is ultimately good. I don't mind.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On October 23 2011 10:38 Supdude wrote:
The game was entertaining. It's obviously fixed, but hey, they are on the same team. That's the way it is.
MVP took out Sen (rather easily), so Nestea gave him the title. It's a win-win. No wonder Nestea beat MVP so easily earlier.
Of course Nestea would be favored against Sen, too, but it's a much riskier proposition. ZvZ by nature is unpredictable, and Sen's ZvZ is his best matchup.
Now it all makes sense
Huh? That doesn't make any sense. Why would NesTea let MVP win if MVP beat Sen? Am I missing something here? Are you being sarcastic? Also, even if they had agreed to split the prize money beforehand, why would he just willingly give up the prestige that comes with winning the whole tournament? All you conspirators are also forgetting that the korean culture is quite different. If they had really fixed the outcome, it would've been NesTea winning the whole thing since he's the senior and holds authority over MVP.
People need to stop with this match-fixing bullshit now.
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On October 23 2011 10:35 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:31 NNTP wrote:On October 23 2011 10:23 Goldfish wrote:On October 23 2011 10:20 Dalavita wrote:On October 23 2011 10:19 Elean wrote:On October 23 2011 10:17 Dalavita wrote:On October 23 2011 10:10 NNTP wrote:On October 23 2011 10:05 LetoAtreides82 wrote:On October 23 2011 09:45 tlrocksss wrote:On October 23 2011 09:44 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
[quote]
It's countered by the tier 1...... Ghost counter lings. No they don't, do you even play the game? Ghost are so much more expensive and they shoot slower than marines. The only terran ground unit that's worse against lings than ghosts are Thors without support. Actually, without detection, ghosts would wreck lings since they do extra damage to light units, They 2 shot lings. And for each ghost you can get 8 lings without having to spend any gas. Guess if a ghost can kill 8 lings, and guess which unit remakes the fastest with 15k minerals stockpiled. I have some news for you: The ghost weren't alone. With PF, tanks, medivac, it doesnt' matter how many lings you have, you will never kill the ghosts. I have some news for you. You don't need to only make lings. The entire argument is a WHAT KONTERS MASS GHOST OMAGID!, and the simple answer is that lings are great against them. If you're going to go with a match specific encounter, then no shit there are other things to take into account. Lings vs PF + tanks + ghosts + medivacs aren't a 100% sure way win (especially since the planetary with armor will take minimal damage from lings). Putting them in drops isn't a sure answer either (they're vulnerable in the overlords). Nestea broke underpressure and threw away that game. Anyone saying otherwise clearly didn't watch the same game as me. Let's theorycraft a bit, ok say nestea thought that he could overpower with 27 BLords. Fine! okay... but why send them accross the MIDDLE of the map where whole opposition is? Why not abuse terrain, and send them on top base or bottom base or both for that matter so that mvp cant focus down on them 100% with both ghosts AND vikings. and during that time sneak infestors through the middle. OR! lob infested terrans on the ledges of the bases and use them to keep a distance between MVP's AA and the blords? and resupply with ultras running down the middle? no he decided, ok I am tired of all this nuking and dropping bs and lets end the game with 27 blords down the middle theres no way that TWENTY SEVEN Broods can be sniped RIGHT? WRONG!!! What do you expect Nestea to do about the Viking in that case? I am guessing Nestea hope was to destroy Ghost+Tank+PF and flood with lings. To hit at production. BL solo will never win an equal eco vs Terran. Show nested quote +On October 23 2011 10:34 NNTP wrote:On October 23 2011 10:25 Dalavita wrote:On October 23 2011 10:23 Goldfish wrote:On October 23 2011 10:20 Dalavita wrote:On October 23 2011 10:19 Elean wrote:On October 23 2011 10:17 Dalavita wrote:On October 23 2011 10:10 NNTP wrote:On October 23 2011 10:05 LetoAtreides82 wrote:On October 23 2011 09:45 tlrocksss wrote:
[quote]
Ghost counter lings. No they don't, do you even play the game? Ghost are so much more expensive and they shoot slower than marines. The only terran ground unit that's worse against lings than ghosts are Thors without support. Actually, without detection, ghosts would wreck lings since they do extra damage to light units, They 2 shot lings. And for each ghost you can get 8 lings without having to spend any gas. Guess if a ghost can kill 8 lings, and guess which unit remakes the fastest with 15k minerals stockpiled. I have some news for you: The ghost weren't alone. With PF, tanks, medivac, it doesnt' matter how many lings you have, you will never kill the ghosts. I have some news for you. You don't need to only make lings. The entire argument is a WHAT KONTERS MASS GHOST OMAGID!, and the simple answer is that lings are great against them. If you're going to go with a match specific encounter, then no shit there are other things to take into account. Lings vs PF + tanks + ghosts + medivacs aren't a 100% sure way win (especially since the planetary with armor will take minimal damage from lings). Putting them in drops isn't a sure answer either (they're vulnerable in the overlords). Did you not read a word I said? "The entire argument is a WHAT KONTERS MASS GHOST OMAGID!, and the simple answer is that lings are great against them." P.S Mass roach counters mass ghosts, roaches have ALOT of HP and are armored so do not suffer bonus damage from ghosts and only cost 75\25 to the ghosts' 200\100. That would have been a great choice too, send blords to the bases draw away parts of the army and sneak roaches in away from the PF and tanks. Roaches had no upgrades and tie up you supply, One ghost > One Roach.
True he didnt upgrade the roaches but he had 3 armor up which means that he could have sent roaches in to buffer some of the damage and create space and then go in blords at an angle where he only faces vikings OR ghosts not both! Also, vikings cannot do anything to roach and he did have few infestors as back up but were useless as he didnt see where he had to fungal since the first units to breech the line of sigh were the blords followed by the infestors who were quickly emp ed. going through the center was the worst decision he could have made with the units on the map at that point in time.
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EPT
