EPT[MLG] Global Invitational - Page 52
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FreudianTrip
Switzerland1983 Posts
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Blasphemi
United Kingdom980 Posts
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Akash1223
United States91 Posts
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GreyKnight
United States4720 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:45 Blasphemi wrote: The build I think Sase did vs Fruit Dealer where he cronoboosted out a shit load of Zealots after Forge Expanding would have been good against what Losira did. nah, you wouldn't get enough zealots to punish anything. i dont even think sase's build really worked. | ||
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Jinivus
747 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:39 Blasphemi wrote: I agree that many are all innish, but perhaps if Zergs were at all worried about Protoss early aggression rather than knowing they will all just forge fe every single game they'd be forced to play a lot safer because that threat is there, rather than taking a third on the 5 minute mark. Or maybe if gateway and timing attacks and stargate play were actually threatening but they're not due to various protoss nerfs and spore crawler build time decrease. Losira, Coca, and Nestea straight up never lose a BO series in tournaments in ZvP because vs a Zerg with an exceptional understanding of the matchup, Protoss has no ideal options. | ||
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Jinivus
747 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:46 Akash1223 wrote: Forge FE into stargate or DT is a build that zergs have simply figured out; I have no idea why protoss players continue to rely on those builds. It's incredibly easy to just drone up and make blind spores while taking a fast 3rd. If you forge FE the best way to punish a fast 3rd is a hard 6 or 7 gate all in; it's far from easy to hold that off as Z when all you can build are speedlings and roaches without speed. Remember, zerg pretty much always gets a very delayed lair and won't have any +upgrades from their evo chamber done by the time a typical 6 gate hits. Protoss could also just go for a fast 3rd themselves on certain maps (ie: terminus) because it's very easy to hold a wall against a low tech zerg until your 3rd is up. And as many others have said, it's not like protoss is forced to forge FE in the first place; pretty much every 1 base all-in beats a zerg going fast gold. 3 Gate expand is the only other safe alternative and it is simply horrible economically. Even that is vulnerable to some forms of zerg pressure. | ||
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Blasphemi
United Kingdom980 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:46 GreyKnight wrote: nah, you wouldn't get enough zealots to punish anything. i dont even think sase's build really worked. Even if you couldn't deny any basis Losira would have to make an extremely large number of slow lings (seen as he's playing gasless) to respond. That's an awful lot of larva that isn't drones. Instead he did by far the most obvious and predictable response and suprisingly the second best Zerg player in the world saw it coming a mile off. Or how about Hero himself takes an extremely fast third? Losira had no capicity to deny that in the first 7 minutes of the game. | ||
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Jinivus
747 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:50 Blasphemi wrote: Even if you couldn't deny any basis Losira would have to make an extremely large number of slow lings (seen as he's playing gasless) to respond. That's an awful lot of larva that isn't drones. Instead he did by far the most obvious and predictable response and suprisingly the second best Zerg player in the world saw it coming a mile off. Or how about Hero himself takes an extremely fast third? Losira had no capicity to deny that in the first 7 minutes of the game. He will 3 minutes later and you sure as hell won't have the capacity to defend it... | ||
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Stanlot
United States5742 Posts
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Blasphemi
United Kingdom980 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:46 Jinivus wrote: Or maybe if gateway and timing attacks and stargate play were actually threatening but they're not due to various protoss nerfs and spore crawler build time decrease. Losira, Coca, and Nestea straight up never lose a BO series in tournaments in ZvP because vs a Zerg with an exceptional understanding of the matchup, Protoss has no ideal options. I think it's a mix of Protoss being perhaps underpowered and all top Protoss players except MC (who himself is pretty guilty) being a bunch of cheesy 2 base all inners who do nothing but rip off MC's ideas. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:46 Akash1223 wrote: Forge FE into stargate or DT is a build that zergs have simply figured out; I have no idea why protoss players continue to rely on those builds. It's incredibly easy to just drone up and make blind spores while taking a fast 3rd. If you forge FE the best way to punish a fast 3rd is a hard 6 or 7 gate all in; it's far from easy to hold that off as Z when all you can build are speedlings and roaches without speed. Remember, zerg pretty much always gets a very delayed lair and won't have any +upgrades from their evo chamber done by the time a typical 6 gate hits. Protoss could also just go for a fast 3rd themselves on certain maps (ie: terminus) because it's very easy to hold a wall against a low tech zerg until your 3rd is up. And as many others have said, it's not like protoss is forced to forge FE in the first place; pretty much every 1 base all-in beats a zerg going fast gold. Completely untrue, as far as I'm aware of. During the previous Korean Weekly, BbongBbongPrime would take the gold instead of his natural in every single ZvP on Katrina, and he defended against 4gate just fine. Stargate and DTs clearly do not work. What other 1 base all-ins does Protoss have that would exploit distance from the main to the expo? On September 21 2011 10:51 Blasphemi wrote: I think it's a mix of Protoss being perhaps underpowered and all top Protoss players except MC (who himself is pretty guilty) being a bunch of cheesy 2 base all inners. Funnily enough, a really wacky 2 base all-in is the best bet against what Losira did in g2. JYP beat Jookto in the exact same situation with 2 stargate VR. Of course, Jookto never even attempted to scout, but eh, a chance is a chance. | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:46 Akash1223 wrote: Forge FE into stargate or DT is a build that zergs have simply figured out; I have no idea why protoss players continue to rely on those builds. It's incredibly easy to just drone up and make blind spores while taking a fast 3rd. If you forge FE the best way to punish a fast 3rd is a hard 6 or 7 gate all in; it's far from easy to hold that off as Z when all you can build are speedlings and roaches without speed. Remember, zerg pretty much always gets a very delayed lair and won't have any +upgrades from their evo chamber done by the time a typical 6 gate hits. Protoss could also just go for a fast 3rd themselves on certain maps (ie: terminus) because it's very easy to hold a wall against a low tech zerg until your 3rd is up. And as many others have said, it's not like protoss is forced to forge FE in the first place; pretty much every 1 base all-in beats a zerg going fast gold. You really can't on Antiga though, that is the reason for his coinflip I think. Really hard to defend third, and a zerg can power hard off three base and punish. | ||
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Blasphemi
United Kingdom980 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:51 Jinivus wrote: He will 3 minutes later and you sure as hell won't have the capacity to defend it... Three minutes allows you to slap down a load of gates. As well with the heavy ling style I'm suprised how many people aren't opening Twilight/Templar tech rather than Stargate/Robo tech. | ||
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-y0shi-
Germany994 Posts
It normally goes like this: Protoss goes for FFE -> Zerg takes fast third. Protoss can now do all in / pressure build / just eco -> If he puts on pressure he can force the zerg to build more units. Zerg also has to sac an overlord and prepare for dts etc etc. In the end if both players play "reasonable" Protoss ends up with 2 bases, saturiating his 2nd and getting like 5 gates and starts to tech. Zerg has some units, starts saturating his 3rd base and starts to tech. Its kinda balanced. Zerg cant just drone up because he has to be prepared for agression. Assuming nothing crazy happens itds kinda even. But with the gold base Zerg can be prepared for EVERYTHING and still drone like crazy. Protoss cant catch up if that happens. Losira wasnt ahead because he was better (he probably is, it just didnt matter here) but because at this point zerg macro kicks in. The gold is just too easy to take and way too hard to punish. So the only other option for hero is to stay on one base. But there is a reason why Protoss go for FFE. What else can he do? 1 Gate Expand? Really risky... 3 Gate? Is all but figured out and leaves him both really behind and in danger of that roach/ling pressure. And its not like the FE put his way behind, he didnt stop droning once, didnt even build a cannon iirc, he basically did cannon into nexus first. His build was really fast and didnt put him behind like a FFE usually would. | ||
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wklbishop
United States1286 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:46 Akash1223 wrote: Forge FE into stargate or DT is a build that zergs have simply figured out; I have no idea why protoss players continue to rely on those builds. It's incredibly easy to just drone up and make blind spores while taking a fast 3rd. If you forge FE the best way to punish a fast 3rd is a hard 6 or 7 gate all in; it's far from easy to hold that off as Z when all you can build are speedlings and roaches without speed. Remember, zerg pretty much always gets a very delayed lair and won't have any +upgrades from their evo chamber done by the time a typical 6 gate hits. Protoss could also just go for a fast 3rd themselves on certain maps (ie: terminus) because it's very easy to hold a wall against a low tech zerg until your 3rd is up. And as many others have said, it's not like protoss is forced to forge FE in the first place; pretty much every 1 base all-in beats a zerg going fast gold. A HUGE problem with what you said is that, you have to decide to go forge FE or one base all-in before you even scout. The problem is how to play a macro game without Forge FE against a zerg with stargate or DT harass. You can't exactly transition out of the viable 1 base all-ins. | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:51 Blasphemi wrote: I think it's a mix of Protoss being perhaps underpowered and all top Protoss players except MC (who himself is pretty guilty) being a bunch of cheesy 2 base all inners. So basically you just admitted to have never watching half of the protoss players play. I mean seriously, watch Huk Hero, Puzzle (to some extent.. from what I have seen he gateway all ins ALOT), Sage ect ect. You had no idea what you are talking about and generalizing a whole race in general is a terrible idea. DTs were a choice he made, you can not judge him from the maybe 2 games you have seen of him.... Watch his code A games from last night............ Or his stream, or his tournaments and you would know your statement is wrong. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
gl hf tho | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:53 Blasphemi wrote: Three minutes allows you to slap down a load of gates. As well with the heavy ling style I'm suprised how many people aren't opening Twilight/Templar tech rather than Stargate/Robo tech. What lol, how do you think you can get ahead of a zerg who is on a gold for three mins by building more gateways? Simply not going to happen. What you can do is take a really really early third, but it is REALLY hard to do this on antiga. | ||
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VirgilSC2
United States6151 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:53 Blasphemi wrote: Three minutes allows you to slap down a load of gates. As well with the heavy ling style I'm suprised how many people aren't opening Twilight/Templar tech rather than Stargate/Robo tech. Do you know how long Twilight/Templar tech takes to become effective? You either have to research Charge, or Build a Templar Archive and THEN Research Storm, meanwhile you can't have enough sentries to hold your choke because all that gas is currently on the clock researching. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:36 Piledriver wrote: All those builds you listed are basically straight up all-ins (except maybe 2 gate stargate, which MC does every single game but doesnt really give good results). We really need a safer way to pressure while expanding. That's the whole bone of contention. What? You want an even safer way to pressure while expanding when you already have FF and warp ins? Lol... The whole point of FFE is sacrificing the ability to pressure early in order to get a huge econ lead against standard FE Zerg. Hence, Zerg started 3 hatch before Lair in response. However, almost all Protosses are still in their "2 base timing attack" mindset that they got from playing against standard Zerg play, but that DOESN'T work against 3 hatch play. What you should do is get a SG for minor harass and map control (1 VR and 3-4 phoenixes is enough), then just turtle to a fast third. Make enough of an army to keep you safe, and constantly scout the Z composition (is he going Infestor, Muta, pure Roach, etc). Then Zerg is now forced to choose between attacking you (which you should hold because of defenders adv) or getting a 4th. Once you secure your third (again, keep up on upgrades!) just get your deathball of Stalker/Zealot/Sentry/Collosus/Few HTs. Attack once maxed while putting down your 4th and 5th base. What you saw in that game was just map failure. The gold is too easy for Zerg. But I guess Tosses now will be smart and put a pylon there preemptively? Idk. | ||
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