EPTJust turned it on and I see puma vs MVP, is this the first match?
[MLG] Global Invitational - Page 51
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laharl23
United States582 Posts
Just turned it on and I see puma vs MVP, is this the first match? | ||
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McFeser
United States2458 Posts
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GreyKnight
United States4720 Posts
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:27 Blasphemi wrote: You aren't forced to forge expand every game. Part of the reason Zerg dominates is because Protoss's forge expands are too predictable and don't allow you to do anything to Zerg. Zergs know this and get a massive econ lead before unit massing to deny the third or Protoss two base push. Do you have any idea how much more behind he would of been if he tried to one base all in the gold? Do you know how predictable all of the other protoss builds are, and how far you get ahead if the protoss does not forge fe... | ||
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oDieN[Siege]
United States2905 Posts
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RoyAlex
Norway420 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:23 oogieogie wrote: How can the P get back in this game? DTs The zerg just knew that so he put down a evo chamber, no way he would get lair, and then just build some spores/spines to prepare. Could the P have used a huge gateway army and just killed the gold or something because idk if that would even work since Z could build so many units. Yea, since Losira had gold and 3 bases + macro hatch he obviously was going to play safe against FFE protoss. Doing pressure with gateway units would be hard since Losira would have so many Slings and/or roaches. So Hero could have gotten stargate or DTs which would not be touched by standard zerg ground army, but then again those get countered by spores and spines or queens. I think stargate is better than Dts but its more common too. At anyrate Hero had to do something, can't let the zerg get too be safe and macro up with so many bases and a gold one too. Getting a third would not work since Losira's ground defensive units with few injects would be able to deny Hero's third if he got it too quickly, also Hero can't just sit on 2 bases for too long and do nothing.. he has to do something. | ||
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alan25
United States379 Posts
mvp 2-0 puma losira 2-0 hero mma 2-0 boxer bomber 2-0 coca? | ||
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Blasphemi
United Kingdom980 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:28 tuho12345 wrote: Protoss only has 2 options in early game is stargate or dt. So eitherway it's just so easy to blindly put down 1-2 sporecrawlers. Not hurt at all right? That's the problem with protoss early harassment right now. You actually do have options besides forge fe into dt's or star. You can 4 gate, 3 gate robo, 2 gate stargate, choya's 4 gate+stargate. All those builds allow you to pressure the Zergs and stop these extremely greedy builds Zergs do now because they know Protoss players only do two builds both of which just require spores to defend and allow you to build a shit load of drones. Much like Zergs did with Roach/Hydra/Corruptor Protoss have convinced themselves that their only options are to do an extremely small number of things when in reality there are other things they can do and if they'd stop being so predictable they'd have much success, just like Zergs did. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:27 Blasphemi wrote: You aren't forced to forge expand every game. Part of the reason Zerg dominates is because Protoss's forge expands are too predictable and don't allow you to do anything to Zerg. Zergs know this and get a massive econ lead before unit massing to deny the third or Protoss two base push. Zerg can do the exact same thing against 1 Gate FE. Against anything else they can just take the third the moment they see the Nexus go down for the Protoss, and be way ahead too. | ||
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Blasphemi
United Kingdom980 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:31 Yamulo wrote: Do you have any idea how much more behind he would of been if he tried to one base all in the gold? Do you know how predictable all of the other protoss builds are, and how far you get ahead if the protoss does not forge fe... Genius knocked Losria into up and downs by 4 gating on a map players traditionally forge fe on. | ||
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oDieN[Siege]
United States2905 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:32 alan25 wrote: so the scores were + Show Spoiler + mvp 2-0 puma losira 2-0 hero mma 2-0 boxer bomber 2-0 coca? MVP vs PuMa series isn't over yet.. what do you mean 2-0? | ||
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-y0shi-
Germany994 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:28 Blasphemi wrote: I don't play Protoss and I'm not anywhere near his level. I just think it's absurd to talk about imbalance in a match where the Zerg is just a far better player. I would expect Losira to destroy Hero with any strategy, he's a much better player. For what it's worth I actually consider Protoss underpowered right now, but this is a terrible example to prove it. If he outmacros him, fine, hes better and wins, no problem. But with that build it doesnt matter how good he is. Is he better then hero? Probably. Did that have any influence on this game? Hardly. I mean, what is Hero supposed to do against this? Zerg basically goes for the normal fast 3rd but can afford all his defense and units as well. Hero cant punish this because if he all ins and Losira is prepared, hes dead. But if he doesnt Zerg just runs away. The problem with the fast 3rd is that you can either defend and prepare against all ins OR drone like crazy. In that case its kinda 50/50. But the gold allowed losira to do both. Not really "zerg imba" just "gold too easy for zerg". I know losira is better. But did he do anything special in that game? Not really :/ | ||
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GreyKnight
United States4720 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:34 ODieN wrote: MVP vs PuMa series isn't over yet.. what do you mean 2-0? this is a rebroadcast now... today's games were lousy. seems like nobody is playing at top level. | ||
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oDieN[Siege]
United States2905 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:35 GreyKnight wrote: this is a rebroadcast now... today's games were lousy. seems like nobody is playing at top level. Pffft, false advertisement! It doesn't say "Rebroadcast" on the TL Calender. I'm quite saddened. | ||
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:33 Blasphemi wrote: You actually do have options besides forge fe into dt's or star. You can 4 gate, 3 gate robo, 2 gate stargate, choya's 4 gate+stargate. All those builds allow you to pressure the Zergs and stop these extremely greedy builds Zergs do now because they know Protoss players only do two builds both of which just require spores to defend and allow you to build a shit load of drones. Much like Zergs did with Roach/Hydra/Corruptor Protoss have convinced themselves that their only options are to do an extremely small number of things when in reality there are other things they can do and if they'd stop being so predictable they'd have much success, just like Zergs did. All those builds you listed are basically straight up all-ins (except maybe 2 gate stargate, which MC does every single game but doesnt really give good results). We really need a safer way to pressure while expanding. That's the whole bone of contention. | ||
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Blasphemi
United Kingdom980 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:34 -y0shi- wrote: If he outmacros him, fine, hes better and wins, no problem. But with that build it doesnt matter how good he is. Is he better then hero? Probably. Did that have any influence on this game? Hardly. I mean, what is Hero supposed to do against this? Zerg basically goes for the normal fast 3rd but can afford all his defense and units as well. Hero cant punish this because if he all ins and Losira is prepared, hes dead. But if he doesnt Zerg just runs away. The problem with the fast 3rd is that you can either defend and prepare against all ins OR drone like crazy. In that case its kinda 50/50. But the gold allowed losira to do both. Not really "zerg imba" just "gold too easy for zerg". I know losira is better. But did he do anything special in that game? Not really :/ He couldn't do anything because he forge expanded, which is a build which leaves you with no options. Your argument makes no sense, he has no options because he chose to have options. It's the same as when Zergs hatch first and then whine about bunkers. If you forge expand you abandon all map control and offensive options for the sake of economy, it is a risk and you live by it. | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:33 Blasphemi wrote: You actually do have options besides forge fe into dt's or star. You can 4 gate, 3 gate robo, 2 gate stargate, choya's 4 gate+stargate. All those builds allow you to pressure the Zergs and stop these extremely greedy builds Zergs do now because they know Protoss players only do two builds both of which just require spores to defend and allow you to build a shit load of drones. Much like Zergs did with Roach/Hydra/Corruptor Protoss have convinced themselves that their only options are to do an extremely small number of things when in reality there are other things they can do and if they'd stop being so predictable they'd have much success, just like Zergs did. Um..... Losira would not have gotten the third hatch if he did not see a Forge/nexus first.. Also why do you think builds that DON'T work vs 2 base zergs would work vs a zerg with a gold. Watch Losira vs naniwa as a reference, fast expo to the gold on metal. Naniwa trys to 4 gate and gets completely destroyed. | ||
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Blasphemi
United Kingdom980 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:36 Piledriver wrote: All those builds you listed are basically straight up all-ins. We really need a safer way to pressure while expanding. That's the whole bone of contention. I agree that many are all innish, but perhaps if Zergs were at all worried about Protoss early aggression rather than knowing they will all just forge fe every single game they'd be forced to play a lot safer because that threat is there, rather than taking a third on the 5 minute mark. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:39 Blasphemi wrote: I agree that many are all innish, but perhaps if Zergs were at all worried about Protoss early aggression rather than knowing they will all just forge fe every single game they'd be forced to play a lot safer because that threat is there, rather than taking a third on the 5 minute mark. Yeah man, it's really difficult to scout if a Protoss is in fact, Forge expanding, before throwing down your early third. 1 base Protoss vs 2 base Zerg isn't much better, and the Zerg can throw the third down the moment Protoss takes his natural. | ||
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Yamulo
United States2096 Posts
On September 21 2011 10:39 Blasphemi wrote: I agree that many are all innish, but perhaps if Zergs were at all worried about Protoss early aggression rather than knowing they will all just forge fe every single game they'd be forced to play a lot safer because that threat is there, rather than taking a third on the 5 minute mark. He would not take his third so quickly if hero did not nexus first.... Obviously going to play safer vs a non forge fe build. Also known as a 2 base zerg with a gold vs a Protoss doing an all in that does not win much vs a regular 2 base zerg as it is. | ||
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