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Balance whine equals ban; good posting equals happy community and moderator |
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On September 07 2011 19:58 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 19:54 Demonace34 wrote:On September 07 2011 19:48 Heavenly wrote:On September 07 2011 19:47 Demonace34 wrote:On September 07 2011 19:45 Medrea wrote:On September 07 2011 19:43 Dommk wrote:On September 07 2011 19:39 Medrea wrote:On September 07 2011 19:37 Dommk wrote:On September 07 2011 19:30 NewteN wrote:On September 07 2011 19:23 ragnorr wrote:
[quote]
he cut probes at 34, had no tech and 6 gates. Hes all in(if it dint work, he would have lost).
All in is a term that dont require you to pull workers, but a tactic that if you lose the attack, you lose the game It's retarded is what it is. This is MC, not some bronze leaguer who's somehow going to not do enough damage with 11 +1 zealots, a sentry for ramp and 3-4 VRs for him to outright lose the game if it doesn't win right then and there. MAYBE Kyrix holds, but how the F is he going to win if MC loses 11 lots/sent and probably saves 2-3 VRs??? No tech? He's up to +1 and a Stargate? He's walled. I seriously have no idea why this is cheese or all-in. That was all-in as all-in gets. Did you look at the saturation of his natural? He only had two mining per patch on both bases, with no gas taken. On top of that he had 300gas in the bank. If that attacked failed, if the pylon got scouted, if the Zerg saw it coming then MC would have been done. It may still have done a little damage but there is no chance in hell that he can win from there. Protoss isn't like Terran, you can't recover from low-econ all-ins as well as Terran can because of how reliant you are on a good econ and gas. Protoss doesn't really bank resources and 2 on each patch is optimal as the third only mines half. 40 probes 10mins into the game is not optimal by any means. He was banking gas because he was building nothing but Zealots. Though at the end he made some sentry warp-ins and burned it all Regardless it was an all-in. 40 Probes just doesn't cut it considering in the next few minutes you have to rebuild an army AND Tech AND build another 20~ Probes. Chronoboost probes for the first few minutes your mineral spending increases as you are producing probes at a faster rate, it takes a minute or two before the Probes kick in and pay themselves off, unlike Mules which are almost instant gain Yeah but your also kind of implying that it would be better to try and compete with zerg in a macro sense. Much better to just go fucking kill him when he has no units. Ultra fast 3rd? Yeah might as well give up on a macro game as any race. Better to just go end the game. Or tech and secure your 3rd base and get decent upgrades and a deathball. Na nevermind he should do an "aggressive timing attack" (all-in) to finish the game. And be massively behind because Kyrix made nothing but drones that entire time and teched to hydras extremely fast to deal with any possible pressure beyond colossi which would have taken forever to make in sufficient numbers to attack and move across the map, putting Kyrix in an amazing mid game position. Yeah, pressure into a 3rd base couldn't of done any damage or force units out of the zerg player. (sorry for the sarcasm) This is more of a problem with going FFE and not having any potential to put pressure on without going horribly all-in. MC just decided he wanted to end the game after the FFE with an all-in, eventually I think better players will go for more macro oriented builds by feigning an all-in attack and build up to late game. Different people like playing differently though, and his decision in that game wasn't bad...but it was aggressive. Also, this is over a game old in a LR thread, I'm going to just shush and watch the games. MC is a better player than you despite how clever you think you are and how much you think you understand the game. If he didn't think it was a good build he wouldn't have revealed it when he had a risk of falling down into Code B. It's always silly arguing with the keyboard warriors who try and say what the "better payers" would do. How would he have feigned an all in, exactly? Since Kyrix didn't even bother scouting and just did what he wanted to under the assumption that he would be massively ahead if MC did choose to play a macro game (which he almost always does nowadays)? Show a ton of zealots and voidrays in the middle of the map and have the possibility of all those units being picked off and it being insta-gg because he would never secure a third? But yeah, let's watch the game.
Not trying to be a keyboard warrior (how else should I have this conversation), I was just bouncing off what I think about the game. Better player to me might be an idiot to other people, Artosis has probably just infected my brain with wanting macro players and macro builds. I thought that MC executed it well, I just am not a fan of those types of (all-innish) builds.
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On September 07 2011 20:02 Sc2Null wrote:
haven't seen a 2base muta in a long time
every nestea's zvz for last two seasons
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On September 07 2011 20:02 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 20:00 Probe1 wrote:On September 07 2011 19:57 Probe1 wrote:On September 07 2011 19:56 Probe1 wrote:2:00FE for Losira 14g14p for Kyrix 4:00Kyrix expands on 21 while Losira gets a spine crawler at natural and baneling nest 7:25Banelings waddle into the Kyrix main and kill 5 drones. Kyrix says: My turn. 9:00Both players Lair complete at the same time. Losira instantly drops a spire. Kyrix starts +1 ranged attack and roach speed.
11:00
Kyrix starts his third base and continues to pump roaches. The spire finishes for Losira and instantly 10 mutalisks start. Kyrix starts a hydra den though.
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God, I've won so many ZvZ's with roaches against mutas. Worried about Losira.
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Lol, of course he knows, he knew right away when he say spines crawlers.
He should have atleast.
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On September 07 2011 20:03 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 20:02 Probe1 wrote:On September 07 2011 20:00 Probe1 wrote:On September 07 2011 19:57 Probe1 wrote:On September 07 2011 19:56 Probe1 wrote:2:00FE for Losira 14g14p for Kyrix 4:00Kyrix expands on 21 while Losira gets a spine crawler at natural and baneling nest 7:25Banelings waddle into the Kyrix main and kill 5 drones. Kyrix says: My turn. 9:00Both players Lair complete at the same time. Losira instantly drops a spire. Kyrix starts +1 ranged attack and roach speed. 11:00Kyrix starts his third base and continues to pump roaches. The spire finishes for Losira and instantly 10 mutalisks start. Kyrix starts a hydra den though.
12:00
Nydus worm starts for Kyrix.
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roah hydra nydus seems like a great counter to this muta strat
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On September 07 2011 20:00 Gary Oak wrote:Doa will forever be associated with body part jokes. + Show Spoiler +
Goddamnit that's funny
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Good old supply block costing Kyrix the game
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listen, he SHOULD theoretically win this!
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Yeah mutas in the mineral line.
Dont react or anything.
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On September 07 2011 20:04 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 20:03 Probe1 wrote:On September 07 2011 20:02 Probe1 wrote:On September 07 2011 20:00 Probe1 wrote:On September 07 2011 19:57 Probe1 wrote:On September 07 2011 19:56 Probe1 wrote:2:00FE for Losira 14g14p for Kyrix 4:00Kyrix expands on 21 while Losira gets a spine crawler at natural and baneling nest 7:25Banelings waddle into the Kyrix main and kill 5 drones. Kyrix says: My turn. 9:00Both players Lair complete at the same time. Losira instantly drops a spire. Kyrix starts +1 ranged attack and roach speed. 11:00Kyrix starts his third base and continues to pump roaches. The spire finishes for Losira and instantly 10 mutalisks start. Kyrix starts a hydra den though. 12:00Nydus worm starts for Kyrix.
13:30
9 hydras complete just seconds after all the drones die at the natural. But a nydus pops in Losiras main. Losira loses concentration and loses a lot of mutas to hydras. The nydus is taken out after some drone losses but
Kyrix has 3 drones remaining.
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get ready for the face in hands
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On September 07 2011 19:57 Demonace34 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 07 2011 19:55 NewteN wrote:On September 07 2011 19:48 Dommk wrote:On September 07 2011 19:45 Medrea wrote:On September 07 2011 19:43 Dommk wrote:On September 07 2011 19:39 Medrea wrote:On September 07 2011 19:37 Dommk wrote:On September 07 2011 19:30 NewteN wrote:On September 07 2011 19:23 ragnorr wrote:On September 07 2011 19:22 NewteN wrote:
So tired of this 'all-in' term. MC on two bases and pulled no probes. WTF he cut probes at 34, had no tech and 6 gates. Hes all in(if it dint work, he would have lost). All in is a term that dont require you to pull workers, but a tactic that if you lose the attack, you lose the game It's retarded is what it is. This is MC, not some bronze leaguer who's somehow going to not do enough damage with 11 +1 zealots, a sentry for ramp and 3-4 VRs for him to outright lose the game if it doesn't win right then and there. MAYBE Kyrix holds, but how the F is he going to win if MC loses 11 lots/sent and probably saves 2-3 VRs??? No tech? He's up to +1 and a Stargate? He's walled. I seriously have no idea why this is cheese or all-in. That was all-in as all-in gets. Did you look at the saturation of his natural? He only had two mining per patch on both bases, with no gas taken. On top of that he had 300gas in the bank. If that attacked failed, if the pylon got scouted, if the Zerg saw it coming then MC would have been done. It may still have done a little damage but there is no chance in hell that he can win from there. Protoss isn't like Terran, you can't recover from low-econ all-ins as well as Terran can because of how reliant you are on a good econ and gas. Protoss doesn't really bank resources and 2 on each patch is optimal as the third only mines half. 40 probes 10mins into the game is not optimal by any means. He was banking gas because he was building nothing but Zealots. Though at the end he made some sentry warp-ins and burned it all Regardless it was an all-in. 40 Probes just doesn't cut it considering in the next few minutes you have to rebuild an army AND Tech AND build another 20~ Probes. Chronoboost probes for the first few minutes your mineral spending increases as you are producing probes at a faster rate, it takes a minute or two before the Probes kick in and pay themselves off, unlike Mules which are almost instant gain Yeah but your also kind of implying that it would be better to try and compete with zerg in a macro sense. Much better to just go fucking kill him when he has no units. Ultra fast 3rd? Yeah might as well give up on a macro game as any race. Better to just go end the game. Crossing your fingers and hoping you can get a Pylon outside a Zerg's base isn't exactly what I had in mind when I think the terms "just go fucking kill him" On September 07 2011 19:45 Heavenly wrote:On September 07 2011 19:43 Dommk wrote:On September 07 2011 19:39 Medrea wrote:On September 07 2011 19:37 Dommk wrote:On September 07 2011 19:30 NewteN wrote:On September 07 2011 19:23 ragnorr wrote:On September 07 2011 19:22 NewteN wrote:
So tired of this 'all-in' term. MC on two bases and pulled no probes. WTF he cut probes at 34, had no tech and 6 gates. Hes all in(if it dint work, he would have lost). All in is a term that dont require you to pull workers, but a tactic that if you lose the attack, you lose the game It's retarded is what it is. This is MC, not some bronze leaguer who's somehow going to not do enough damage with 11 +1 zealots, a sentry for ramp and 3-4 VRs for him to outright lose the game if it doesn't win right then and there. MAYBE Kyrix holds, but how the F is he going to win if MC loses 11 lots/sent and probably saves 2-3 VRs??? No tech? He's up to +1 and a Stargate? He's walled. I seriously have no idea why this is cheese or all-in. That was all-in as all-in gets. Did you look at the saturation of his natural? He only had two mining per patch on both bases, with no gas taken. On top of that he had 300gas in the bank. If that attacked failed, if the pylon got scouted, if the Zerg saw it coming then MC would have been done. It may still have done a little damage but there is no chance in hell that he can win from there. Protoss isn't like Terran, you can't recover from low-econ all-ins as well as Terran can because of how reliant you are on a good econ and gas. Protoss doesn't really bank resources and 2 on each patch is optimal as the third only mines half. 40 probes 10mins into the game is not optimal by any means. He was banking gas because he was building nothing but Zealots. Though at the end he made some sentry warp-ins and burned it all Regardless it was an all-in. 40 Probes just doesn't cut it considering in the next few minutes you have to rebuild an army AND Tech AND build another 20~ Probes. Chronoboost probes for the first few minutes your mineral spending increases as you are producing probes at a faster rate, it takes a minute or two before the Probes kick in and pay themselves off, unlike Mules which are almost instant gain It was 37 probes, 12 zealots, and 3 voidrays to something like 55 drones, some queens, and like 4 zerglings. For Kyrix to beat that army he would have to have much fewer drones than that, in which case MC wouldn't be as far behind as he seemed due to Kyrix's extreme greed. Or if he had something scouting the outside of his base, the Pylon would have been denied and the Zealots would have been forced to Warpin further down the map, buying Kyrix enough time to produce whatever he needs to defend. Queens + Larva + 3 Hatches means that the Zerg can hit 70 Drones as soon as that all-in fails and MC is shit out of luck :| Why the f are you assuming that if the pylon/push/tech of MC went scouted he would have gone through with it? Who do you think you're talking about? Crossing his fingers? Seriously? He already cut the probes and put 6 gates down, I haven't seen a protoss not commit after that much commitment to a strategy. That was planned out to be all-in, hence crossing fingers and hoping he executes perfectly.
There's no way to transition out of 6 gates or not do sufficient damage with a 6gate/+1/VR push simply through the nat that he just gets completely rolled.
Here's a fun way to play PvZ: try to tech and secure a 3rd against a 3 base zerg and then start having them army swap you over and over. If you DON'T pressure as toss, you just lose to zerg macro. Oooo what a cheesy all in from toss - he explicitly chose not to macro-war against a quick 3-base zerg. More like he did exactly what he should and is almost certain to do enough damage to even the playing field and denying how far he's going to be behind if he lets zerg be on 3 bases for too long.
If he had the pylon scouted, certainly he would have went and denied the 3rd. He could have done it with just the VRs, actually.
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wow were his roaches not even ready for the nydus pop?
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This is not looking good for MC though. oh well.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img856.imageshack.us/img856/7366/doacomic.png)
