On September 12 2011 00:03 StUfF wrote: I can't watch this defensive macro TvP style from other Protoss after watching ogsMC do it.
The timings aren't as crisp, the upgrades are slow. The drop defense is so much worse. The lack of blink stalkers. The storms just not landing. The lack of harass. Floating resources.
Even though MC struggles in PvT like all protoss do now adays, they really need to take a page out of his book when it comes to his drop defense, he's the only one who does it right.
On September 11 2011 23:17 Rabiator wrote: Why are Protoss players not building a ring of cannons around their bases when faced by a Terran? Its a pain to move from A to B on many maps with all your forces and a minimal investment of a few hundred minerals can neutralize those evil Terran drops because Medivacs are somewhat squishy.
Tyler got punished by drops severely yesterday and today White-Ra does have to divert his attention from "the front" as well; its a mess nonetheless.
Probably because cannons cost money and because Marauders destroy builds far too quickly with stim.
Said Marauders have to be dropped first and if the cannons are placed at the rim of the landmass they get 2-3 shots off on the Medivac (at least) before those nasty Marauders are dropped ...
On maps with long cliffs like Shattered you need like 4 - 5 Cannons to cover everything, i.e. 600-750 minerals. That's absolutely not worth it, better get some extra Gateways to always be able to warp in there, or leave a couple of Stalkers. Blink Stalkers are the 2nd best counter to drops imo, Phoenix being #1 but that's a big investment as well.
Obviously you need "enough cannons" and if you build too few it is bad and you have to think about it this way: 3 cannons are just 5 Zealots preemptively warped in to defend which dont even cost supply and which can shoot air. Every time a Protoss warps in defensive forces he has the resources to build cannons and Marauders are able to deal with a round of those if supported by Medivacs.
Shattered Temple has a pretty long "cliffline" which is open to space, but there are maps where 2-3 cannons would be enough defense.
No supply is the only thing the Cannon has going for it, other than that Blink Stalkers are better in every way, you should agree with that. They can actually chase a dropship AND Blink away to avoid death. In the late late game where you are maxed and have spare minerals, sure throw down Cannons but in the mid game you should invest in a better army imo and just leave some Stalkers.
White-Ra lost the Metalopolis game due to the one drop into his main ... which allowed DDE to kill his gold expo. He also didnt have blink Stalkers at the time ... mostly Zealots, Sentries and some Colossi. Just as TB and d'Apollo said: a split Protoss force is too weak, but thats what would happen with your blink Stalkers responding to the drop and leaving the rest of your army elsewhere (unless you have pure blink Stalkers, but thats a weakness because you cant ever tech switch and it makes you predictable.
Just stop listening to the Day[9] mantra of "that's a Spine Crawler he didnt want to build" and look at it this way: a penny saved is a penny earned and preventing these drops will save you more resources than you have to spend to rebuild / counter it. Drops are very very very efficient if you only react when the units are already on the ground.
Where in the world do you want him to put those cannons on Metalopolis? He'd need to build like 7 or 8, and then his army would just get rolled in a straight-up battle. Protoss is not Zerg, they are not ahead economically by default, and can't afford to blow 1k minerals on Cannons just to maybe defend a drop in the future.
On September 11 2011 23:17 Rabiator wrote: Why are Protoss players not building a ring of cannons around their bases when faced by a Terran? Its a pain to move from A to B on many maps with all your forces and a minimal investment of a few hundred minerals can neutralize those evil Terran drops because Medivacs are somewhat squishy.
Tyler got punished by drops severely yesterday and today White-Ra does have to divert his attention from "the front" as well; its a mess nonetheless.
Probably because cannons cost money and because Marauders destroy builds far too quickly with stim.
Said Marauders have to be dropped first and if the cannons are placed at the rim of the landmass they get 2-3 shots off on the Medivac (at least) before those nasty Marauders are dropped ...
On maps with long cliffs like Shattered you need like 4 - 5 Cannons to cover everything, i.e. 600-750 minerals. That's absolutely not worth it, better get some extra Gateways to always be able to warp in there, or leave a couple of Stalkers. Blink Stalkers are the 2nd best counter to drops imo, Phoenix being #1 but that's a big investment as well.
Obviously you need "enough cannons" and if you build too few it is bad and you have to think about it this way: 3 cannons are just 5 Zealots preemptively warped in to defend which dont even cost supply and which can shoot air. Every time a Protoss warps in defensive forces he has the resources to build cannons and Marauders are able to deal with a round of those if supported by Medivacs.
Shattered Temple has a pretty long "cliffline" which is open to space, but there are maps where 2-3 cannons would be enough defense.
No supply is the only thing the Cannon has going for it, other than that Blink Stalkers are better in every way, you should agree with that. They can actually chase a dropship AND Blink away to avoid death. In the late late game where you are maxed and have spare minerals, sure throw down Cannons but in the mid game you should invest in a better army imo and just leave some Stalkers.
White-Ra lost the Metalopolis game due to the one drop into his main ... which allowed DDE to kill his gold expo. He also didnt have blink Stalkers at the time ... mostly Zealots, Sentries and some Colossi. Just as TB and d'Apollo said: a split Protoss force is too weak, but thats what would happen with your blink Stalkers responding to the drop and leaving the rest of your army elsewhere (unless you have pure blink Stalkers, but thats a weakness because you cant ever tech switch and it makes you predictable.
Just stop listening to the Day[9] mantra of "that's a Spine Crawler he didnt want to build" and look at it this way: a penny saved is a penny earned and preventing these drops will save you more resources than you have to spend to rebuild / counter it. Drops are very very very efficient if you only react when the units are already on the ground.
Where in the world do you want him to put those cannons on Metalopolis? He'd need to build like 7 or 8, and then his army would just get rolled in a straight-up battle. Protoss is not Zerg, they are not ahead economically by default, and can't afford to blow 1k minerals on Cannons just to maybe defend a drop in the future.
As I said maybe you don't have to cover the whole base but instead use the cannons to zone out an area so 3-4 stalkers can cover the rest. You would only need 2-3 cannons to zone out one area.
On September 12 2011 00:03 StUfF wrote: I can't watch this defensive macro TvP style from other Protoss after watching ogsMC do it.
The timings aren't as crisp, the upgrades are slow. The drop defense is so much worse. The lack of blink stalkers. The storms just not landing. The lack of harass. Floating resources.
Out of probably every single top level Protoss player in the world, MC probably has the slowest upgrades. He prefers to mass gateway units, gets forges late, this allows him to be aggressive in the early game
Even though MC struggles in PvT like all protoss do now adays, they really need to take a page out of his book when it comes to his drop defense, he's the only one who does it right.
You clearly have not seen enough of Hasuobs. The guy is a beast, when it comes to drop defense, be it by Zerg or Terran. Socke also shuts down drops very well with blink stalkers.
On September 11 2011 23:17 Rabiator wrote: Why are Protoss players not building a ring of cannons around their bases when faced by a Terran? Its a pain to move from A to B on many maps with all your forces and a minimal investment of a few hundred minerals can neutralize those evil Terran drops because Medivacs are somewhat squishy.
Tyler got punished by drops severely yesterday and today White-Ra does have to divert his attention from "the front" as well; its a mess nonetheless.
Probably because cannons cost money and because Marauders destroy builds far too quickly with stim.
Said Marauders have to be dropped first and if the cannons are placed at the rim of the landmass they get 2-3 shots off on the Medivac (at least) before those nasty Marauders are dropped ...
On maps with long cliffs like Shattered you need like 4 - 5 Cannons to cover everything, i.e. 600-750 minerals. That's absolutely not worth it, better get some extra Gateways to always be able to warp in there, or leave a couple of Stalkers. Blink Stalkers are the 2nd best counter to drops imo, Phoenix being #1 but that's a big investment as well.
Obviously you need "enough cannons" and if you build too few it is bad and you have to think about it this way: 3 cannons are just 5 Zealots preemptively warped in to defend which dont even cost supply and which can shoot air. Every time a Protoss warps in defensive forces he has the resources to build cannons and Marauders are able to deal with a round of those if supported by Medivacs.
Shattered Temple has a pretty long "cliffline" which is open to space, but there are maps where 2-3 cannons would be enough defense.
No supply is the only thing the Cannon has going for it, other than that Blink Stalkers are better in every way, you should agree with that. They can actually chase a dropship AND Blink away to avoid death. In the late late game where you are maxed and have spare minerals, sure throw down Cannons but in the mid game you should invest in a better army imo and just leave some Stalkers.
White-Ra lost the Metalopolis game due to the one drop into his main ... which allowed DDE to kill his gold expo. He also didnt have blink Stalkers at the time ... mostly Zealots, Sentries and some Colossi. Just as TB and d'Apollo said: a split Protoss force is too weak, but thats what would happen with your blink Stalkers responding to the drop and leaving the rest of your army elsewhere (unless you have pure blink Stalkers, but thats a weakness because you cant ever tech switch and it makes you predictable.
Just stop listening to the Day[9] mantra of "that's a Spine Crawler he didnt want to build" and look at it this way: a penny saved is a penny earned and preventing these drops will save you more resources than you have to spend to rebuild / counter it. Drops are very very very efficient if you only react when the units are already on the ground.
Where in the world do you want him to put those cannons on Metalopolis? He'd need to build like 7 or 8, and then his army would just get rolled in a straight-up battle. Protoss is not Zerg, they are not ahead economically by default, and can't afford to blow 1k minerals on Cannons just to maybe defend a drop in the future.
As I said maybe you don't have to cover the whole base but instead use the cannons to zone out an area so 3-4 stalkers can cover the rest. You would only need 2-3 cannons to zone out one area.
Maybe on some maps. It's definitely doable on, say, TDA. But on Metalopolis, the angle is just too wide, they can come in from too many directions. There's a reason Protosses rarely win PvT in close air, it's very difficult to defend against drops there.
EPT
