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It's not that storms do less damage now.
It's because you can grab more than 12 workers at a time to retreat. By the time you box selected. 2nd time in BW all the scvs are dead.
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I'm so sick of watching korean pvt bo3.
1 game is always a dumb void all in (usually all in but still void)
and terran usually does a 111 at some point.
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On August 31 2011 02:16 Asshat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 02:13 kemsley wrote:
There is a saying from British Football by Gary Linekar:
"Soccer is a game for 22 people that run around, play the ball... and in the end, Germany always win"
I think this can be applied somewhat to SC2
"Starcraft two is a game for 2 people that fight eachother, do battle...and in the end, Terran always win"
In the last three days we have Terran winning MLG with more Terrans at the end than any other race a Terran vs Terran Code A Final and an all Terran Semi final.
Terrancraft.
Good luck Huk, I'll be rooting for you nonetheless.
Are you saying that the Aryan race was overpowered or that Germans were just more skilled and disciplined at football than everyone else?
if TL had rep, this would have gotten it
so ossim
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On August 31 2011 02:09 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 02:00 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:39 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 01:34 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:21 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 01:13 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:04 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:49 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:29 IVN wrote:
[quote]
I'm a protoss player, so dont go all cute on me, ok?
The point is, that harass was so bad till now, that we protoss users are grateful for any buff we get in the harass dept. Regardless of how small it is. i'm a toss player too and +1 range for immortals made me happy but it didn't really help our harass capabilities imo. it mainly made immortal+other units synergy in a deathball better I dont know how it will work against terran, but against zerg it should be better at denying 3rd, than voids + phoenixes were till now. Just imagine a typical 3rd on taldarim, and a 1, 2 immortal drop there. Dont forget that immortals dont need to charge up, and even when they're charged, voids have less DPS than immortals. well if you compare immo drop vs void, to make the comparison complete you have to take into consideration that immortals are only really efficient vs roaches and buildings in a standard zerg midgame army and they cost a lot of money too. they suck vs speedlings and any zerg will have like 50 of those by the time you get your two immortals in place. You also need the warp prism which is more robo production time and another unit that can be killed to ruin the drop. Also the buff doesn't really change much you if your intent is just to kill a building Void rays (maybe paired with penises) can clean up several overlords, position themselves better due to being aerial and can also clean up ground units that don't have anti air. But then zergs can defend vs this easily as well i don't really like either possibility honestly Everything except the statement with 50 speedlings is correct. However, I think it is good that there is now a 2nd form of harassment, which requires a different response from the zerg. Some zergs were starting to blind counter voids/ps, and that kind of predictability is not good. Besides, robo is much better tech than stargate. What a protoss would do with voids is force hydras, and counter with colossi. But now, the tech path is much more stable. YOu may not end up forcing anything with WP/Immos, except more queens/sores, but you will also be able to get more observers and faster colossi. So yeah, I like the idea with immortal drops. the 50 lings was an exaggeration  Robo tech is kind of obligatory in every game though and been around this way for ages so i don't really think this is anything new, and i don't really see protoss players use immo drops to deny hatcheries the whole point of stargate tech early on is to abuse lack of zerg anti-air but zergs can now defend vs that and your immortals would just run in the arms of the cheap and efficient welcome board of zerglings making you a bad trade... as i see it at least You do know that 2 Immos kill a full hp hatch in around 20 in game seconds? Which is a lot less in real time. And you know how far the 3rd is on maps like taldarim? And Immos are pretty huge, so they can be placed between mineral patches, to greatly reduce the surface area of lings while they are focusfireing the hatch, and can also be picked up (old BW tank/dropship, reaver/shuttle micro), and dropped back on the other side of the hatch. I think this is doable. The greatest obstacle of such a strat in the past was the distrust towards the paper plane like warp prism. And now thats being fixed. yeah you're right it's doable, i've seen sickness doing funky shit with his immortals. but then you gotta distribute 70% of your apm on microing around with your very expensive units... but you definitely got a point there that on some maps it can be very cool but then still haven't seen anyone succesfully use this in high level games... It will come with time. Lets be honest, the current top pros are still terrible. ;-) I mean, not even top terrans pick up their MM that are blocked by FFs. Every time this happens, terran user on the forums go nuts. And IMO such tings should have been standard months ago. As well as void joggling and other cute plays. I expect nothing less from true gosus. maybe, maybe not- but think about how a stargate opener is considered inefficient if it can't deny a hatch just kill some overlords and queens, or when you can't preserve your voids. I'm not sure that 2 immortals which you'll likely lose or possibly not use efficiently anymore after killing a hatch is different in that sense (ofc it's different a bit cuz u'd get a robo anyways in every game). using them 20 minutes later vs ultras is kinda the same as using your void 20 minutes later vs corruptor/broodlord The problem with stargate, is that if it fails to kill a hatch or kill a lot of queens, ovis and drones, that you are in a 2 base toss vs 3 base zerg sitaution, and you have to build a robo and tech, in addition to the stargate. So basically the stargate and the air units you've got are suddenly a failed investment.
If you make a robo, a WP and 2 immortals, that you have a similar chance, maybe even a better chance (will have to be tested) of killing a hatch. If you're smart, and dont overextend, you end up with 2 immos, which are better than voids during most of the game against zerg, and maybe the important part is that you have the robo from the start, and can start transitioning to colossi a lot faster.
Robo ---> immortals ----> colossi ist just way less bumpy and expensive than stargate ---> void/phoenix ---> robo ------> colossi
On August 31 2011 02:09 msjakofsky wrote:
the whole immortal drop thing resembles thor drops in my mind and noone uses those anymore (not the same but they bear similarities)
Not quite. Thor drops would be comparable to teching to colossi and harassing with them.
Immortal come way earlier than thors.
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On August 31 2011 02:46 rareh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 02:13 kemsley wrote:
There is a saying from British Football by Gary Linekar:
"Soccer is a game for 22 people that run around, play the ball... and in the end, Germany always win"
I think this can be applied somewhat to SC2
"Starcraft two is a game for 2 people that fight eachother, do battle...and in the end, Terran always win"
In the last three days we have Terran winning MLG with more Terrans at the end than any other race a Terran vs Terran Code A Final and an all Terran Semi final.
Terrancraft.
Good luck Huk, I'll be rooting for you nonetheless.
erm Last GSL all protoss final for code A, all zerg final for code S. Not a single terran. No balance update was given in between now and then. If you look at the race with most gsl wins, its zerg, not terran... Only reason there are a lot of terrans, is because the best players are playing that race. There are only like 3 top players max for other races, but for terran there at least 10.
Saying that there was a ZvZ final is not an argument. Especially if you look at the path Nestea had to his victory. The only terran Nestea beat was ensnare, and the 2 best terrans (bomber MVP) were knocked out in TvT. If people were saying "it is absolutely impossible to win against any terran no matter their skill level" than yeah you have a point. Also if terran is too strong wouldn't it make sense the mid tier terran players would seem stronger than their protoss and terran counterparts?
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On August 31 2011 03:34 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 02:46 rareh wrote:On August 31 2011 02:13 kemsley wrote:
There is a saying from British Football by Gary Linekar:
"Soccer is a game for 22 people that run around, play the ball... and in the end, Germany always win"
I think this can be applied somewhat to SC2
"Starcraft two is a game for 2 people that fight eachother, do battle...and in the end, Terran always win"
In the last three days we have Terran winning MLG with more Terrans at the end than any other race a Terran vs Terran Code A Final and an all Terran Semi final.
Terrancraft.
Good luck Huk, I'll be rooting for you nonetheless.
erm Last GSL all protoss final for code A, all zerg final for code S. Not a single terran. No balance update was given in between now and then. If you look at the race with most gsl wins, its zerg, not terran... Only reason there are a lot of terrans, is because the best players are playing that race. There are only like 3 top players max for other races, but for terran there at least 10. Saying that there was a ZvZ final is not an argument. Especially if you look at the path Nestea had to his victory. The only terran Nestea beat was ensnare, and the 2 best terrans (bomber MVP) were knocked out in TvT. If people were saying "it is absolutely impossible to win against any terran no matter their skill level" than yeah you have a point. Also if terran is too strong wouldn't it make sense the mid tier terran players would seem stronger than their protoss and terran counterparts?
byun beat bomber in a very convincing fashion, just saying...bomber might be better at this moment(cause of all the zenex drama), but in last gsl, byun was the best terran and losira destroyed byun in the semi.
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On August 31 2011 03:34 Olinim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 02:46 rareh wrote:On August 31 2011 02:13 kemsley wrote:
There is a saying from British Football by Gary Linekar:
"Soccer is a game for 22 people that run around, play the ball... and in the end, Germany always win"
I think this can be applied somewhat to SC2
"Starcraft two is a game for 2 people that fight eachother, do battle...and in the end, Terran always win"
In the last three days we have Terran winning MLG with more Terrans at the end than any other race a Terran vs Terran Code A Final and an all Terran Semi final.
Terrancraft.
Good luck Huk, I'll be rooting for you nonetheless.
erm Last GSL all protoss final for code A, all zerg final for code S. Not a single terran. No balance update was given in between now and then. If you look at the race with most gsl wins, its zerg, not terran... Only reason there are a lot of terrans, is because the best players are playing that race. There are only like 3 top players max for other races, but for terran there at least 10. Saying that there was a ZvZ final is not an argument. Especially if you look at the path Nestea had to his victory. The only terran Nestea beat was ensnare, and the 2 best terrans (bomber MVP) were knocked out in TvT. If people were saying "it is absolutely impossible to win against any terran no matter their skill level" than yeah you have a point. Also if terran is too strong wouldn't it make sense the mid tier terran players would seem stronger than their protoss and terran counterparts?
Well alot of times the Terrans just make less obvios mistakes then the Toss and Zergplayers alot of times. There's rarely big mistakes that cost Terran players games. I don't know if thats neccesarly an imbalanced thing but Terran is just saver alot of times . The BO1 format really helps Terran players in that regard because Terrans just have alot of options that are also hard to read. If the P's or Zerg's get to the BO3/5/7 format their chances are decent the Bo1 is just very good for Terran.
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On August 31 2011 03:48 rareh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 03:34 Olinim wrote:On August 31 2011 02:46 rareh wrote:On August 31 2011 02:13 kemsley wrote:
There is a saying from British Football by Gary Linekar:
"Soccer is a game for 22 people that run around, play the ball... and in the end, Germany always win"
I think this can be applied somewhat to SC2
"Starcraft two is a game for 2 people that fight eachother, do battle...and in the end, Terran always win"
In the last three days we have Terran winning MLG with more Terrans at the end than any other race a Terran vs Terran Code A Final and an all Terran Semi final.
Terrancraft.
Good luck Huk, I'll be rooting for you nonetheless.
erm Last GSL all protoss final for code A, all zerg final for code S. Not a single terran. No balance update was given in between now and then. If you look at the race with most gsl wins, its zerg, not terran... Only reason there are a lot of terrans, is because the best players are playing that race. There are only like 3 top players max for other races, but for terran there at least 10. Saying that there was a ZvZ final is not an argument. Especially if you look at the path Nestea had to his victory. The only terran Nestea beat was ensnare, and the 2 best terrans (bomber MVP) were knocked out in TvT. If people were saying "it is absolutely impossible to win against any terran no matter their skill level" than yeah you have a point. Also if terran is too strong wouldn't it make sense the mid tier terran players would seem stronger than their protoss and terran counterparts? byun beat bomber in a very convincing fashion, just saying...bomber might be better at this moment(cause of all the zenex drama), but in last gsl, byun was the best terran and losira destroyed byun in the semi.
Byun certainly wasn't the best at TvZ.
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On August 31 2011 03:28 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 02:09 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 02:00 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:39 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 01:34 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:21 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 01:13 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:04 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:49 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 msjakofsky wrote:
[quote]
i'm a toss player too and +1 range for immortals made me happy but it didn't really help our harass capabilities imo. it mainly made immortal+other units synergy in a deathball better
I dont know how it will work against terran, but against zerg it should be better at denying 3rd, than voids + phoenixes were till now. Just imagine a typical 3rd on taldarim, and a 1, 2 immortal drop there. Dont forget that immortals dont need to charge up, and even when they're charged, voids have less DPS than immortals. well if you compare immo drop vs void, to make the comparison complete you have to take into consideration that immortals are only really efficient vs roaches and buildings in a standard zerg midgame army and they cost a lot of money too. they suck vs speedlings and any zerg will have like 50 of those by the time you get your two immortals in place. You also need the warp prism which is more robo production time and another unit that can be killed to ruin the drop. Also the buff doesn't really change much you if your intent is just to kill a building Void rays (maybe paired with penises) can clean up several overlords, position themselves better due to being aerial and can also clean up ground units that don't have anti air. But then zergs can defend vs this easily as well i don't really like either possibility honestly Everything except the statement with 50 speedlings is correct. However, I think it is good that there is now a 2nd form of harassment, which requires a different response from the zerg. Some zergs were starting to blind counter voids/ps, and that kind of predictability is not good. Besides, robo is much better tech than stargate. What a protoss would do with voids is force hydras, and counter with colossi. But now, the tech path is much more stable. YOu may not end up forcing anything with WP/Immos, except more queens/sores, but you will also be able to get more observers and faster colossi. So yeah, I like the idea with immortal drops. the 50 lings was an exaggeration Robo tech is kind of obligatory in every game though and been around this way for ages so i don't really think this is anything new, and i don't really see protoss players use immo drops to deny hatcheries the whole point of stargate tech early on is to abuse lack of zerg anti-air but zergs can now defend vs that and your immortals would just run in the arms of the cheap and efficient welcome board of zerglings making you a bad trade... as i see it at least You do know that 2 Immos kill a full hp hatch in around 20 in game seconds? Which is a lot less in real time. And you know how far the 3rd is on maps like taldarim? And Immos are pretty huge, so they can be placed between mineral patches, to greatly reduce the surface area of lings while they are focusfireing the hatch, and can also be picked up (old BW tank/dropship, reaver/shuttle micro), and dropped back on the other side of the hatch. I think this is doable. The greatest obstacle of such a strat in the past was the distrust towards the paper plane like warp prism. And now thats being fixed. yeah you're right it's doable, i've seen sickness doing funky shit with his immortals. but then you gotta distribute 70% of your apm on microing around with your very expensive units... but you definitely got a point there that on some maps it can be very cool but then still haven't seen anyone succesfully use this in high level games... It will come with time. Lets be honest, the current top pros are still terrible. ;-) I mean, not even top terrans pick up their MM that are blocked by FFs. Every time this happens, terran user on the forums go nuts. And IMO such tings should have been standard months ago. As well as void joggling and other cute plays. I expect nothing less from true gosus. maybe, maybe not- but think about how a stargate opener is considered inefficient if it can't deny a hatch just kill some overlords and queens, or when you can't preserve your voids. I'm not sure that 2 immortals which you'll likely lose or possibly not use efficiently anymore after killing a hatch is different in that sense (ofc it's different a bit cuz u'd get a robo anyways in every game). using them 20 minutes later vs ultras is kinda the same as using your void 20 minutes later vs corruptor/broodlord The problem with stargate, is that if it fails to kill a hatch or kill a lot of queens, ovis and drones, that you are in a 2 base toss vs 3 base zerg sitaution, and you have to build a robo and tech, in addition to the stargate. So basically the stargate and the air units you've got are suddenly a failed investment. If you make a robo, a WP and 2 immortals, that you have a similar chance, maybe even a better chance (will have to be tested) of killing a hatch. If you're smart, and dont overextend, you end up with 2 immos, which are better than voids during most of the game against zerg, and maybe the important part is that you have the robo from the start, and can start transitioning to colossi a lot faster. Robo ---> immortals ----> colossi ist just way less bumpy and expensive than stargate ---> void/phoenix ---> robo ------> colossi Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 02:09 msjakofsky wrote:
the whole immortal drop thing resembles thor drops in my mind and noone uses those anymore (not the same but they bear similarities)
Not quite. Thor drops would be comparable to teching to colossi and harassing with them. Immortal come way earlier than thors.
700/500 for factory+armory+1 thor that fits into a medivac, but you'd get the buildings and the medivac anyways. 900/400 for 2 immortals a prism and a robo. the resemblance to me is that you'd get the infrastructure anways in both cases, but you're rushing to it, both units are good vs buildings but suck vs lings, the thor is arguably better with anti air, ability to be repaired. also thor dps vs not armored is almost 2x as much as two immortals' combined. 295 seconds for a medivac+thor from the start of building a barracks, 340 seconds for 2x immortal and a prism from start of gateway.
also take into consideration when talkin bout stargate tech that they are infinitely efficient vs lings/roaches, you're guaranteed to snipe some overlords while with immortals you're not guaranteed to do damage, and you get map control, and that you force several hundred minerals of anti air defense.
i'm not trying to argue that one is better than the other, i actually feel like both suck, but i think you fell in love with the idea and are fighting for it without full investigation. and also i'm pretty sure if it was that good top protoss players would have used it a lot of times in the past year.
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On August 31 2011 03:53 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 03:28 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 02:09 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 02:00 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:39 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 01:34 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:21 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 01:13 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:04 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:49 IVN wrote:
[quote]
I dont know how it will work against terran, but against zerg it should be better at denying 3rd, than voids + phoenixes were till now.
Just imagine a typical 3rd on taldarim, and a 1, 2 immortal drop there. Dont forget that immortals dont need to charge up, and even when they're charged, voids have less DPS than immortals. well if you compare immo drop vs void, to make the comparison complete you have to take into consideration that immortals are only really efficient vs roaches and buildings in a standard zerg midgame army and they cost a lot of money too. they suck vs speedlings and any zerg will have like 50 of those by the time you get your two immortals in place. You also need the warp prism which is more robo production time and another unit that can be killed to ruin the drop. Also the buff doesn't really change much you if your intent is just to kill a building Void rays (maybe paired with penises) can clean up several overlords, position themselves better due to being aerial and can also clean up ground units that don't have anti air. But then zergs can defend vs this easily as well i don't really like either possibility honestly Everything except the statement with 50 speedlings is correct. However, I think it is good that there is now a 2nd form of harassment, which requires a different response from the zerg. Some zergs were starting to blind counter voids/ps, and that kind of predictability is not good. Besides, robo is much better tech than stargate. What a protoss would do with voids is force hydras, and counter with colossi. But now, the tech path is much more stable. YOu may not end up forcing anything with WP/Immos, except more queens/sores, but you will also be able to get more observers and faster colossi. So yeah, I like the idea with immortal drops. the 50 lings was an exaggeration Robo tech is kind of obligatory in every game though and been around this way for ages so i don't really think this is anything new, and i don't really see protoss players use immo drops to deny hatcheries the whole point of stargate tech early on is to abuse lack of zerg anti-air but zergs can now defend vs that and your immortals would just run in the arms of the cheap and efficient welcome board of zerglings making you a bad trade... as i see it at least You do know that 2 Immos kill a full hp hatch in around 20 in game seconds? Which is a lot less in real time. And you know how far the 3rd is on maps like taldarim? And Immos are pretty huge, so they can be placed between mineral patches, to greatly reduce the surface area of lings while they are focusfireing the hatch, and can also be picked up (old BW tank/dropship, reaver/shuttle micro), and dropped back on the other side of the hatch. I think this is doable. The greatest obstacle of such a strat in the past was the distrust towards the paper plane like warp prism. And now thats being fixed. yeah you're right it's doable, i've seen sickness doing funky shit with his immortals. but then you gotta distribute 70% of your apm on microing around with your very expensive units... but you definitely got a point there that on some maps it can be very cool but then still haven't seen anyone succesfully use this in high level games... It will come with time. Lets be honest, the current top pros are still terrible. ;-) I mean, not even top terrans pick up their MM that are blocked by FFs. Every time this happens, terran user on the forums go nuts. And IMO such tings should have been standard months ago. As well as void joggling and other cute plays. I expect nothing less from true gosus. maybe, maybe not- but think about how a stargate opener is considered inefficient if it can't deny a hatch just kill some overlords and queens, or when you can't preserve your voids. I'm not sure that 2 immortals which you'll likely lose or possibly not use efficiently anymore after killing a hatch is different in that sense (ofc it's different a bit cuz u'd get a robo anyways in every game). using them 20 minutes later vs ultras is kinda the same as using your void 20 minutes later vs corruptor/broodlord The problem with stargate, is that if it fails to kill a hatch or kill a lot of queens, ovis and drones, that you are in a 2 base toss vs 3 base zerg sitaution, and you have to build a robo and tech, in addition to the stargate. So basically the stargate and the air units you've got are suddenly a failed investment. If you make a robo, a WP and 2 immortals, that you have a similar chance, maybe even a better chance (will have to be tested) of killing a hatch. If you're smart, and dont overextend, you end up with 2 immos, which are better than voids during most of the game against zerg, and maybe the important part is that you have the robo from the start, and can start transitioning to colossi a lot faster. Robo ---> immortals ----> colossi ist just way less bumpy and expensive than stargate ---> void/phoenix ---> robo ------> colossi On August 31 2011 02:09 msjakofsky wrote:
the whole immortal drop thing resembles thor drops in my mind and noone uses those anymore (not the same but they bear similarities)
Not quite. Thor drops would be comparable to teching to colossi and harassing with them. Immortal come way earlier than thors. 700/500 for factory+armory+1 thor that fits into a medivac, but you'd get the buildings and the medivac anyways. 900/400 for 2 immortals a prism and a robo. the resemblance to me is that you'd get the infrastructure anways in both cases, both units are good vs buildings but suck vs lings, the thor is arguably better with anti air, ability to be repaired. also take into consideration when talkin bout stargate tech that they are infinitely efficient vs lings/roaches, you're guaranteed to snipe some overlords while with immortals you're not guaranteed to do damage, and you get map control, and that you force several hundred minerals of anti air defense. i'm not trying to argue that one is better than the other, i actually feel like both suck, but i think you fell in love with the idea and are fighting for it without full investigation. and also i'm pretty sure if it was that good top protoss players would have used it a lot of times in the past year.
I'm not saying that its "that good", my point is, that it is comparably good or maybe even better than stargate tech to deny a 3rd.
And honestly, I'm happy than now there are more options. Protoss was far too easy to read.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On August 31 2011 02:53 lorkac wrote:
It's not that storms do less damage now.
It's because you can grab more than 12 workers at a time to retreat. By the time you box selected. 2nd time in BW all the scvs are dead.
BW storms do 112 damage, in a larger area then SC2
SC2 storms only do 80 damage
granted scvs have less health in SC2, still.
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On August 31 2011 04:04 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 03:53 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 03:28 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 02:09 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 02:00 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:39 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 01:34 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:21 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 01:13 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:04 msjakofsky wrote:
[quote]
well if you compare immo drop vs void, to make the comparison complete you have to take into consideration that immortals are only really efficient vs roaches and buildings in a standard zerg midgame army and they cost a lot of money too. they suck vs speedlings and any zerg will have like 50 of those by the time you get your two immortals in place. You also need the warp prism which is more robo production time and another unit that can be killed to ruin the drop. Also the buff doesn't really change much you if your intent is just to kill a building
Void rays (maybe paired with penises) can clean up several overlords, position themselves better due to being aerial and can also clean up ground units that don't have anti air. But then zergs can defend vs this easily as well
i don't really like either possibility honestly Everything except the statement with 50 speedlings is correct. However, I think it is good that there is now a 2nd form of harassment, which requires a different response from the zerg. Some zergs were starting to blind counter voids/ps, and that kind of predictability is not good. Besides, robo is much better tech than stargate. What a protoss would do with voids is force hydras, and counter with colossi. But now, the tech path is much more stable. YOu may not end up forcing anything with WP/Immos, except more queens/sores, but you will also be able to get more observers and faster colossi. So yeah, I like the idea with immortal drops. the 50 lings was an exaggeration Robo tech is kind of obligatory in every game though and been around this way for ages so i don't really think this is anything new, and i don't really see protoss players use immo drops to deny hatcheries the whole point of stargate tech early on is to abuse lack of zerg anti-air but zergs can now defend vs that and your immortals would just run in the arms of the cheap and efficient welcome board of zerglings making you a bad trade... as i see it at least You do know that 2 Immos kill a full hp hatch in around 20 in game seconds? Which is a lot less in real time. And you know how far the 3rd is on maps like taldarim? And Immos are pretty huge, so they can be placed between mineral patches, to greatly reduce the surface area of lings while they are focusfireing the hatch, and can also be picked up (old BW tank/dropship, reaver/shuttle micro), and dropped back on the other side of the hatch. I think this is doable. The greatest obstacle of such a strat in the past was the distrust towards the paper plane like warp prism. And now thats being fixed. yeah you're right it's doable, i've seen sickness doing funky shit with his immortals. but then you gotta distribute 70% of your apm on microing around with your very expensive units... but you definitely got a point there that on some maps it can be very cool but then still haven't seen anyone succesfully use this in high level games... It will come with time. Lets be honest, the current top pros are still terrible. ;-) I mean, not even top terrans pick up their MM that are blocked by FFs. Every time this happens, terran user on the forums go nuts. And IMO such tings should have been standard months ago. As well as void joggling and other cute plays. I expect nothing less from true gosus. maybe, maybe not- but think about how a stargate opener is considered inefficient if it can't deny a hatch just kill some overlords and queens, or when you can't preserve your voids. I'm not sure that 2 immortals which you'll likely lose or possibly not use efficiently anymore after killing a hatch is different in that sense (ofc it's different a bit cuz u'd get a robo anyways in every game). using them 20 minutes later vs ultras is kinda the same as using your void 20 minutes later vs corruptor/broodlord The problem with stargate, is that if it fails to kill a hatch or kill a lot of queens, ovis and drones, that you are in a 2 base toss vs 3 base zerg sitaution, and you have to build a robo and tech, in addition to the stargate. So basically the stargate and the air units you've got are suddenly a failed investment. If you make a robo, a WP and 2 immortals, that you have a similar chance, maybe even a better chance (will have to be tested) of killing a hatch. If you're smart, and dont overextend, you end up with 2 immos, which are better than voids during most of the game against zerg, and maybe the important part is that you have the robo from the start, and can start transitioning to colossi a lot faster. Robo ---> immortals ----> colossi ist just way less bumpy and expensive than stargate ---> void/phoenix ---> robo ------> colossi On August 31 2011 02:09 msjakofsky wrote:
the whole immortal drop thing resembles thor drops in my mind and noone uses those anymore (not the same but they bear similarities)
Not quite. Thor drops would be comparable to teching to colossi and harassing with them. Immortal come way earlier than thors. 700/500 for factory+armory+1 thor that fits into a medivac, but you'd get the buildings and the medivac anyways. 900/400 for 2 immortals a prism and a robo. the resemblance to me is that you'd get the infrastructure anways in both cases, both units are good vs buildings but suck vs lings, the thor is arguably better with anti air, ability to be repaired. also take into consideration when talkin bout stargate tech that they are infinitely efficient vs lings/roaches, you're guaranteed to snipe some overlords while with immortals you're not guaranteed to do damage, and you get map control, and that you force several hundred minerals of anti air defense. i'm not trying to argue that one is better than the other, i actually feel like both suck, but i think you fell in love with the idea and are fighting for it without full investigation. and also i'm pretty sure if it was that good top protoss players would have used it a lot of times in the past year. I'm not saying that its "that good", my point is, that it is comparably good or maybe even better than stargate tech to deny a 3rd. And honestly, I'm happy than now there are more options. Protoss was far too easy to read.
ok.
elaborate pls, how does +1 range for immortals make immortal drops suddenly viable or a "new" option.
after we agree that it doesn't change much,
why mc/naniwa/etcetc who are actually experimenting with builds not theorycrafting, never use immortal drops and use stargate tech a lot of times as an opener. are they stupid, or what do you think?
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On August 31 2011 03:48 rareh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 03:34 Olinim wrote:On August 31 2011 02:46 rareh wrote:On August 31 2011 02:13 kemsley wrote:
There is a saying from British Football by Gary Linekar:
"Soccer is a game for 22 people that run around, play the ball... and in the end, Germany always win"
I think this can be applied somewhat to SC2
"Starcraft two is a game for 2 people that fight eachother, do battle...and in the end, Terran always win"
In the last three days we have Terran winning MLG with more Terrans at the end than any other race a Terran vs Terran Code A Final and an all Terran Semi final.
Terrancraft.
Good luck Huk, I'll be rooting for you nonetheless.
erm Last GSL all protoss final for code A, all zerg final for code S. Not a single terran. No balance update was given in between now and then. If you look at the race with most gsl wins, its zerg, not terran... Only reason there are a lot of terrans, is because the best players are playing that race. There are only like 3 top players max for other races, but for terran there at least 10. Saying that there was a ZvZ final is not an argument. Especially if you look at the path Nestea had to his victory. The only terran Nestea beat was ensnare, and the 2 best terrans (bomber MVP) were knocked out in TvT. If people were saying "it is absolutely impossible to win against any terran no matter their skill level" than yeah you have a point. Also if terran is too strong wouldn't it make sense the mid tier terran players would seem stronger than their protoss and terran counterparts? byun beat bomber in a very convincing fashion, just saying...bomber might be better at this moment(cause of all the zenex drama), but in last gsl, byun was the best terran and losira destroyed byun in the semi.
lol byun's win was anything but convincing. Bomber was absolutely crushing him in first two games and then suddenly started playing awfully.
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On August 31 2011 04:09 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 04:04 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 03:53 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 03:28 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 02:09 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 02:00 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:39 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 01:34 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:21 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 01:13 IVN wrote:
[quote]
Everything except the statement with 50 speedlings is correct.
However, I think it is good that there is now a 2nd form of harassment, which requires a different response from the zerg. Some zergs were starting to blind counter voids/ps, and that kind of predictability is not good.
Besides, robo is much better tech than stargate.
What a protoss would do with voids is force hydras, and counter with colossi. But now, the tech path is much more stable. YOu may not end up forcing anything with WP/Immos, except more queens/sores, but you will also be able to get more observers and faster colossi. So yeah, I like the idea with immortal drops. the 50 lings was an exaggeration Robo tech is kind of obligatory in every game though and been around this way for ages so i don't really think this is anything new, and i don't really see protoss players use immo drops to deny hatcheries the whole point of stargate tech early on is to abuse lack of zerg anti-air but zergs can now defend vs that and your immortals would just run in the arms of the cheap and efficient welcome board of zerglings making you a bad trade... as i see it at least You do know that 2 Immos kill a full hp hatch in around 20 in game seconds? Which is a lot less in real time. And you know how far the 3rd is on maps like taldarim? And Immos are pretty huge, so they can be placed between mineral patches, to greatly reduce the surface area of lings while they are focusfireing the hatch, and can also be picked up (old BW tank/dropship, reaver/shuttle micro), and dropped back on the other side of the hatch. I think this is doable. The greatest obstacle of such a strat in the past was the distrust towards the paper plane like warp prism. And now thats being fixed. yeah you're right it's doable, i've seen sickness doing funky shit with his immortals. but then you gotta distribute 70% of your apm on microing around with your very expensive units... but you definitely got a point there that on some maps it can be very cool but then still haven't seen anyone succesfully use this in high level games... It will come with time. Lets be honest, the current top pros are still terrible. ;-) I mean, not even top terrans pick up their MM that are blocked by FFs. Every time this happens, terran user on the forums go nuts. And IMO such tings should have been standard months ago. As well as void joggling and other cute plays. I expect nothing less from true gosus. maybe, maybe not- but think about how a stargate opener is considered inefficient if it can't deny a hatch just kill some overlords and queens, or when you can't preserve your voids. I'm not sure that 2 immortals which you'll likely lose or possibly not use efficiently anymore after killing a hatch is different in that sense (ofc it's different a bit cuz u'd get a robo anyways in every game). using them 20 minutes later vs ultras is kinda the same as using your void 20 minutes later vs corruptor/broodlord The problem with stargate, is that if it fails to kill a hatch or kill a lot of queens, ovis and drones, that you are in a 2 base toss vs 3 base zerg sitaution, and you have to build a robo and tech, in addition to the stargate. So basically the stargate and the air units you've got are suddenly a failed investment. If you make a robo, a WP and 2 immortals, that you have a similar chance, maybe even a better chance (will have to be tested) of killing a hatch. If you're smart, and dont overextend, you end up with 2 immos, which are better than voids during most of the game against zerg, and maybe the important part is that you have the robo from the start, and can start transitioning to colossi a lot faster. Robo ---> immortals ----> colossi ist just way less bumpy and expensive than stargate ---> void/phoenix ---> robo ------> colossi On August 31 2011 02:09 msjakofsky wrote:
the whole immortal drop thing resembles thor drops in my mind and noone uses those anymore (not the same but they bear similarities)
Not quite. Thor drops would be comparable to teching to colossi and harassing with them. Immortal come way earlier than thors. 700/500 for factory+armory+1 thor that fits into a medivac, but you'd get the buildings and the medivac anyways. 900/400 for 2 immortals a prism and a robo. the resemblance to me is that you'd get the infrastructure anways in both cases, both units are good vs buildings but suck vs lings, the thor is arguably better with anti air, ability to be repaired. also take into consideration when talkin bout stargate tech that they are infinitely efficient vs lings/roaches, you're guaranteed to snipe some overlords while with immortals you're not guaranteed to do damage, and you get map control, and that you force several hundred minerals of anti air defense. i'm not trying to argue that one is better than the other, i actually feel like both suck, but i think you fell in love with the idea and are fighting for it without full investigation. and also i'm pretty sure if it was that good top protoss players would have used it a lot of times in the past year. I'm not saying that its "that good", my point is, that it is comparably good or maybe even better than stargate tech to deny a 3rd. And honestly, I'm happy than now there are more options. Protoss was far too easy to read. ok. elaborate pls, how does +1 range for immortals make immortal drops suddenly viable or a "new" option. after we agree that it doesn't change much, why mc/naniwa/etcetc who are actually experimenting with builds not theorycrafting, never use immortal drops and use stargate tech a lot of times as an opener. are they stupid, or what do you think?
Its not the immortal, its the buffed prism that makes this more viable.
The old prism was so weak, tha it could be even sniped by two queens. with 200hp, the chance of something like that happening is much lower.
Suddenly it tis much safer to transport expensive units in a WP. And that opens new possibilities.
MC already began transporting HTs in WPs, and with more health that play is only going to become more stronger and stable. Transporting 2 immortals or 1 colossus to harass a mineral line is just the logical extension of that kind of thinking.
Short: 140hp prism is to weak to be transporting expensive units. No one was willing to take that risk. With the buff the risk got reduced by a lot.
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On August 31 2011 04:19 IVN wrote:
Short: 140hp prism is to weak to be transporting expensive units. No one was willing to take that risk. With the buff the risk got reduced by a lot.
Sounds good on paper, unfortunately a single unit - the viking - counters BOTH the unit that's supposed to do damage (the colossus) and the unit that's carrying aforementioned damage-dealer (the prism)
Using warpprism is rofl-risky in lategame now and they will get one-shotted even after the buff if terran has enough vikings. This is why colossus-drop hasn't been used and probably won't be used in the future.
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On August 31 2011 04:23 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 04:19 IVN wrote:
Short: 140hp prism is to weak to be transporting expensive units. No one was willing to take that risk. With the buff the risk got reduced by a lot. Sounds good on paper, unfortunately a single unit - the viking - counters BOTH the unit that's supposed to do damage (the colossus) and the unit that's carrying aforementioned damage-dealer (the prism) Using warpprism is rofl-risky in lategame now and they will get one-shotted even after the buff if terran has enough vikings. This is why colossus-drop hasn't been used and probably won't be used in the future.
We'll see.
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United States7483 Posts
On August 30 2011 18:24 Hassybaby wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 18:21 Whitewing wrote:On August 30 2011 18:10 Onlinejaguar wrote:On August 30 2011 18:08 Corrosive wrote:
Thinking about it now, polt could make the finals.
If polt beats keen tonight, and genius happens to beat TOP, polt will have a really good chance at making another finals :O Hes in TOP 8 so ofc he has a good chance but ultimately i think MVP will take this season. Hes playing insanely well at the moment. My heart says HuK... but I don't think he can do it with all of the traveling. We want a brain-heart-cock answer please Whitewing I'm thinking MVP/HuK/HuK
I would agree with that, MVP/HuK/HuK.
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On August 31 2011 04:19 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 04:09 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 04:04 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 03:53 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 03:28 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 02:09 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 02:00 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:39 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 01:34 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:21 msjakofsky wrote:[quote] the 50 lings was an exaggeration Robo tech is kind of obligatory in every game though and been around this way for ages so i don't really think this is anything new, and i don't really see protoss players use immo drops to deny hatcheries the whole point of stargate tech early on is to abuse lack of zerg anti-air but zergs can now defend vs that and your immortals would just run in the arms of the cheap and efficient welcome board of zerglings making you a bad trade... as i see it at least You do know that 2 Immos kill a full hp hatch in around 20 in game seconds? Which is a lot less in real time. And you know how far the 3rd is on maps like taldarim? And Immos are pretty huge, so they can be placed between mineral patches, to greatly reduce the surface area of lings while they are focusfireing the hatch, and can also be picked up (old BW tank/dropship, reaver/shuttle micro), and dropped back on the other side of the hatch. I think this is doable. The greatest obstacle of such a strat in the past was the distrust towards the paper plane like warp prism. And now thats being fixed. yeah you're right it's doable, i've seen sickness doing funky shit with his immortals. but then you gotta distribute 70% of your apm on microing around with your very expensive units... but you definitely got a point there that on some maps it can be very cool but then still haven't seen anyone succesfully use this in high level games... It will come with time. Lets be honest, the current top pros are still terrible. ;-) I mean, not even top terrans pick up their MM that are blocked by FFs. Every time this happens, terran user on the forums go nuts. And IMO such tings should have been standard months ago. As well as void joggling and other cute plays. I expect nothing less from true gosus. maybe, maybe not- but think about how a stargate opener is considered inefficient if it can't deny a hatch just kill some overlords and queens, or when you can't preserve your voids. I'm not sure that 2 immortals which you'll likely lose or possibly not use efficiently anymore after killing a hatch is different in that sense (ofc it's different a bit cuz u'd get a robo anyways in every game). using them 20 minutes later vs ultras is kinda the same as using your void 20 minutes later vs corruptor/broodlord The problem with stargate, is that if it fails to kill a hatch or kill a lot of queens, ovis and drones, that you are in a 2 base toss vs 3 base zerg sitaution, and you have to build a robo and tech, in addition to the stargate. So basically the stargate and the air units you've got are suddenly a failed investment. If you make a robo, a WP and 2 immortals, that you have a similar chance, maybe even a better chance (will have to be tested) of killing a hatch. If you're smart, and dont overextend, you end up with 2 immos, which are better than voids during most of the game against zerg, and maybe the important part is that you have the robo from the start, and can start transitioning to colossi a lot faster. Robo ---> immortals ----> colossi ist just way less bumpy and expensive than stargate ---> void/phoenix ---> robo ------> colossi On August 31 2011 02:09 msjakofsky wrote:
the whole immortal drop thing resembles thor drops in my mind and noone uses those anymore (not the same but they bear similarities)
Not quite. Thor drops would be comparable to teching to colossi and harassing with them. Immortal come way earlier than thors. 700/500 for factory+armory+1 thor that fits into a medivac, but you'd get the buildings and the medivac anyways. 900/400 for 2 immortals a prism and a robo. the resemblance to me is that you'd get the infrastructure anways in both cases, both units are good vs buildings but suck vs lings, the thor is arguably better with anti air, ability to be repaired. also take into consideration when talkin bout stargate tech that they are infinitely efficient vs lings/roaches, you're guaranteed to snipe some overlords while with immortals you're not guaranteed to do damage, and you get map control, and that you force several hundred minerals of anti air defense. i'm not trying to argue that one is better than the other, i actually feel like both suck, but i think you fell in love with the idea and are fighting for it without full investigation. and also i'm pretty sure if it was that good top protoss players would have used it a lot of times in the past year. I'm not saying that its "that good", my point is, that it is comparably good or maybe even better than stargate tech to deny a 3rd. And honestly, I'm happy than now there are more options. Protoss was far too easy to read. ok. elaborate pls, how does +1 range for immortals make immortal drops suddenly viable or a "new" option. after we agree that it doesn't change much, why mc/naniwa/etcetc who are actually experimenting with builds not theorycrafting, never use immortal drops and use stargate tech a lot of times as an opener. are they stupid, or what do you think? Its not the immortal, its the buffed prism that makes this more viable. The old prism was so weak, tha it could be even sniped by two queens. with 200hp, the chance of something like that happening is much lower. Suddenly it tis much safer to transport expensive units in a WP. And that opens new possibilities. MC already began transporting HTs in WPs, and with more health that play is only going to become more stronger and stable. Transporting 2 immortals or 1 colossus to harass a mineral line is just the logical extension of that kind of thinking. Short: 140hp prism is to weak to be transporting expensive units. No one was willing to take that risk. With the buff the risk got reduced by a lot.
the immortal is countered by the most basic, very mobile and cheap zerg combat unit. stargate units' counters (spores, queens)are more expensive, static or slow and they don't fly, and don't have combat use besides aa defense.
i mean you can't count on those 3 extra seconds a prism survives and your drop-load prism micro that takes 300 apm and makes your macro slip to make your immortal drops overall more worthwhile.
for the sole purpose of killing a hatchery they might be better that's true.but if the zerg pops 20 lings and has creep around his base they are worthless.
don't get me wrong, i love the change but i think you overestimate the effects of +60 shields.
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the immortal is countered by the most basic, very mobile and cheap zerg combat unit. stargate units' counters (spores, queens)are more expensive, static or slow and they don't fly, and don't have combat use besides aa defense.
Look at this:
Protoss opens forge FE. Zerg counters with a fast 3rd. The goal of the zerg is to continue droning, so he needs larva. Protoss switches into a stargate (1gt --> stargate), makes a void and follows up with a couple of phoenixes. Zerg makes spores and queens, has all his larva, and makes moooooore drones. Thats basically how good zergs are countering this build now, and they are doing a good job.
Now look at this:
Protoss opens forge FE, and zerg again takes a fast 3rd. Protoss transitions into robo (1gt --> robo), makes 1 prism and 2 immortals. Zerg will respond to the drop by overmaking lings and queens, and at this point in the game, (fast 3rd) he wont be having that much larva to make drones afterwards (lings are very larva expensive). Plus, the faster robo tech is better for scouting, and it counters burrow hard. The immortals, due to their much higher DPS, and no need for charging up have a higher chance to kill the hatch if zergs forces are out of position. If not, you could still warp a round of lots with the prism a couple of minutes later and finish it off, while with air tech, there is no chance to finish anything off, once a base has been secured.
i mean you can't count on those 3 extra seconds a prism survives and your drop-load prism micro that takes 300 apm and makes your macro slip to make your immortal drops overall more worthwhile.
for the sole purpose of killing a hatchery they might be better that's true.but if the zerg pops 20 lings and has creep around his base they are worthless.
20 lings are a lot of larva, that wont get to be drones. That defense sounds to me much more costly for the zerg, who is looking to saturate his 3rd, than 3-5 drones for spores and 1, 2 queens extra, to stop the air play.
don't get me wrong, i love the change but i think you overestimate the effects of +60 shields.
The prism doesnt need to hover above the immortals. Immortals can be placed between the mineral patches (the same with zealots), allowing only 4-6 lings at a time to attack them. If you do it right, you will have enough time to pick up your immortals, even if the prism is a bit away.
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Sigh... the GOM Terran over representation is getting annoying aas a viewer... if at least PvTs were interesting to watch but not even close.
At least TvZ is a very good match-up to watch and TvT is the least boring of mirrors in my opinion.
The 3 match up of GSL:
TvT
TvP
TvZ
with only 2 of those interesting... I do not regret not buying this season ticket and watching the games through other means.
At least GSTL is good and i'm happy with my ticket.
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EPT
