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On August 31 2011 01:12 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 01:01 Soulish wrote:On August 31 2011 00:55 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:46 GinDo wrote:On August 31 2011 00:41 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 Probe1 wrote:You know what ranged unit is great at killing workers? High templar. Work with what you have instead of comparing zealots to marines guys  comparing those 2 units comes from comparing harass capabilities from 2 races which is acceptable isn't it? ht drops well.. those are cute but using such an expensive, helpless unit that requires high tech and an expensive upgrade... i mean it's more than nothing but it's kind of sad relatively to the other 2 races possibilities People have been using Templar drops since BW. The unit is expensive because it sends an 80dmg wave of death that insta kills all the workers and can easily escape with its life. Not only is it micro intensive, but has a high reward. And their NOT cute. Its a stable TACTIC that one can implement in the mid to late game to pressure the opponent and show your the better player with better multitasking abilities. Watch White-Ra. White-Ra is a few tiers below code S level. I've never seen someone using storm drops in gsl in a regular fashion. BW storm also had like 2 times the damage and games there are much more macro oriented so losing 50/150 for each templar hurts less. Just think about the recent Puma/MC match where losing a few templars pretty much cost MC the game. My problem is with storm drops that you're pretty much planning on losing your whole drop and hope for results that make it worth. I mean it's a possibility and can be good at times but has nowhere near the potential/accessability of a marine drop or muta harass. bw storms did +40 damage, far cry from 2x. HuK has been doing storm drops recently, although he uses it to flank the enemy for better storms, Everything has an inherent risk, storm drops just has a bit more (think reaver drops in bw). the relative risk of losing 400 minerals worth of marines is less than losing 2 templars, also marines+medivacs are present in any standard terran game. BW storms destroyed a bunch of workers in like 2 seconds while in SC2 it's easier to dodge them. Also Reavers could 1shot a clump of units instantly and the standard tvp army didn't have much anti air so it was easier to find blank spots to drop your units I mean you're right it has potential but it's just not as good when you look at every factor
I agree actually. It seems more like the sentry drop of high risk/high reward. Perhaps if you just flew one high templar with enough energy for two storms it would lessen the cost?
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One of the things we see a lot is that a well-handled MMM+Ghost ball just rapes Protoss army if micro'd well, and there's not a whole lot of ways the P can stop the kiting. A lot of it comes down to emp/snipe/feedback but it seems the T's generally come out on top here, perhaps because ghosts move faster (ie, easier to handle), the cloack or their theoretical suprerior range (with the Aoe included), I don't know. I just hope that somewhere along the lines P gets a micro-intensive unit ala reaver again, because at the moment I havent seen much Protoss micro at all apart from spellcasting and some blinks =/
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On August 31 2011 01:41 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 01:12 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 01:01 Soulish wrote:On August 31 2011 00:55 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:46 GinDo wrote:On August 31 2011 00:41 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 Probe1 wrote:You know what ranged unit is great at killing workers? High templar. Work with what you have instead of comparing zealots to marines guys comparing those 2 units comes from comparing harass capabilities from 2 races which is acceptable isn't it? ht drops well.. those are cute but using such an expensive, helpless unit that requires high tech and an expensive upgrade... i mean it's more than nothing but it's kind of sad relatively to the other 2 races possibilities People have been using Templar drops since BW. The unit is expensive because it sends an 80dmg wave of death that insta kills all the workers and can easily escape with its life. Not only is it micro intensive, but has a high reward. And their NOT cute. Its a stable TACTIC that one can implement in the mid to late game to pressure the opponent and show your the better player with better multitasking abilities. Watch White-Ra. White-Ra is a few tiers below code S level. I've never seen someone using storm drops in gsl in a regular fashion. BW storm also had like 2 times the damage and games there are much more macro oriented so losing 50/150 for each templar hurts less. Just think about the recent Puma/MC match where losing a few templars pretty much cost MC the game. My problem is with storm drops that you're pretty much planning on losing your whole drop and hope for results that make it worth. I mean it's a possibility and can be good at times but has nowhere near the potential/accessability of a marine drop or muta harass. bw storms did +40 damage, far cry from 2x. HuK has been doing storm drops recently, although he uses it to flank the enemy for better storms, Everything has an inherent risk, storm drops just has a bit more (think reaver drops in bw). the relative risk of losing 400 minerals worth of marines is less than losing 2 templars, also marines+medivacs are present in any standard terran game. BW storms destroyed a bunch of workers in like 2 seconds while in SC2 it's easier to dodge them. Also Reavers could 1shot a clump of units instantly and the standard tvp army didn't have much anti air so it was easier to find blank spots to drop your units I mean you're right it has potential but it's just not as good when you look at every factor I agree actually. It seems more like the sentry drop of high risk/high reward. Perhaps if you just flew one high templar with enough energy for two storms it would lessen the cost?
well, imo it all comes down to this: will waiting a templar to build up energy, using robo production time and using my apm elsewhere do me better or maybe one more colossus and a templar in an actual battle? in an ideal situation it could be powerful, i think players are just not there yet (maybe never will)
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On August 31 2011 01:39 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 01:34 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:21 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 01:13 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:04 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:49 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:29 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:59 msjakofsky wrote:On August 30 2011 23:45 IVN wrote:
[quote]
I think thats what Blizz has in mind with the new buff to immortals and WPs.
Boost out 2 immos and a prism and go kill some add ons/depots in PvT, or go deny a 3rd in PvZ. well 8 stimmed marines beat the crap out of that in the past and will also do it in the future for half the cost and also having the potential to do like 10x as much damage when dropped in the right place. the buffs are good but don't get carried away I'm a protoss player, so dont go all cute on me, ok? The point is, that harass was so bad till now, that we protoss users are grateful for any buff we get in the harass dept. Regardless of how small it is. i'm a toss player too and +1 range for immortals made me happy but it didn't really help our harass capabilities imo. it mainly made immortal+other units synergy in a deathball better I dont know how it will work against terran, but against zerg it should be better at denying 3rd, than voids + phoenixes were till now. Just imagine a typical 3rd on taldarim, and a 1, 2 immortal drop there. Dont forget that immortals dont need to charge up, and even when they're charged, voids have less DPS than immortals. well if you compare immo drop vs void, to make the comparison complete you have to take into consideration that immortals are only really efficient vs roaches and buildings in a standard zerg midgame army and they cost a lot of money too. they suck vs speedlings and any zerg will have like 50 of those by the time you get your two immortals in place. You also need the warp prism which is more robo production time and another unit that can be killed to ruin the drop. Also the buff doesn't really change much you if your intent is just to kill a building Void rays (maybe paired with penises) can clean up several overlords, position themselves better due to being aerial and can also clean up ground units that don't have anti air. But then zergs can defend vs this easily as well i don't really like either possibility honestly Everything except the statement with 50 speedlings is correct. However, I think it is good that there is now a 2nd form of harassment, which requires a different response from the zerg. Some zergs were starting to blind counter voids/ps, and that kind of predictability is not good. Besides, robo is much better tech than stargate. What a protoss would do with voids is force hydras, and counter with colossi. But now, the tech path is much more stable. YOu may not end up forcing anything with WP/Immos, except more queens/sores, but you will also be able to get more observers and faster colossi. So yeah, I like the idea with immortal drops. the 50 lings was an exaggeration  Robo tech is kind of obligatory in every game though and been around this way for ages so i don't really think this is anything new, and i don't really see protoss players use immo drops to deny hatcheries the whole point of stargate tech early on is to abuse lack of zerg anti-air but zergs can now defend vs that and your immortals would just run in the arms of the cheap and efficient welcome board of zerglings making you a bad trade... as i see it at least You do know that 2 Immos kill a full hp hatch in around 20 in game seconds? Which is a lot less in real time. And you know how far the 3rd is on maps like taldarim? And Immos are pretty huge, so they can be placed between mineral patches, to greatly reduce the surface area of lings while they are focusfireing the hatch, and can also be picked up (old BW tank/dropship, reaver/shuttle micro), and dropped back on the other side of the hatch. I think this is doable. The greatest obstacle of such a strat in the past was the distrust towards the paper plane like warp prism. And now thats being fixed. yeah you're right it's doable, i've seen sickness doing funky shit with his immortals. but then you gotta distribute 70% of your apm on microing around with your very expensive units... but you definitely got a point there that on some maps it can be very cool but then still haven't seen anyone succesfully use this in high level games...
It will come with time. Lets be honest, the current top pros are still terrible. ;-)
I mean, not even top terrans pick up their MM that are blocked by FFs. Every time this happens, terran user on the forums go nuts. And IMO such tings should have been standard months ago. As well as void joggling and other cute plays. I expect nothing less from true gosus.
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Does anyone know if Tastosis will be casting D2?
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On August 31 2011 01:24 icarly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 00:46 adalcim wrote:
I really hoped that Genius will advance, so Huk is the last hope for Protoss. Hopefully he is ready for his match after MLG weekend. lol sorry mate, no chance mvp drops a game
That's what they said about HuK v MMA in the Up and Downs before...
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On August 31 2011 02:00 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 01:39 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 01:34 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:21 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 01:13 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:04 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:49 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:29 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:59 msjakofsky wrote:
[quote]
well 8 stimmed marines beat the crap out of that in the past and will also do it in the future for half the cost and also having the potential to do like 10x as much damage when dropped in the right place.
the buffs are good but don't get carried away I'm a protoss player, so dont go all cute on me, ok? The point is, that harass was so bad till now, that we protoss users are grateful for any buff we get in the harass dept. Regardless of how small it is. i'm a toss player too and +1 range for immortals made me happy but it didn't really help our harass capabilities imo. it mainly made immortal+other units synergy in a deathball better I dont know how it will work against terran, but against zerg it should be better at denying 3rd, than voids + phoenixes were till now. Just imagine a typical 3rd on taldarim, and a 1, 2 immortal drop there. Dont forget that immortals dont need to charge up, and even when they're charged, voids have less DPS than immortals. well if you compare immo drop vs void, to make the comparison complete you have to take into consideration that immortals are only really efficient vs roaches and buildings in a standard zerg midgame army and they cost a lot of money too. they suck vs speedlings and any zerg will have like 50 of those by the time you get your two immortals in place. You also need the warp prism which is more robo production time and another unit that can be killed to ruin the drop. Also the buff doesn't really change much you if your intent is just to kill a building Void rays (maybe paired with penises) can clean up several overlords, position themselves better due to being aerial and can also clean up ground units that don't have anti air. But then zergs can defend vs this easily as well i don't really like either possibility honestly Everything except the statement with 50 speedlings is correct. However, I think it is good that there is now a 2nd form of harassment, which requires a different response from the zerg. Some zergs were starting to blind counter voids/ps, and that kind of predictability is not good. Besides, robo is much better tech than stargate. What a protoss would do with voids is force hydras, and counter with colossi. But now, the tech path is much more stable. YOu may not end up forcing anything with WP/Immos, except more queens/sores, but you will also be able to get more observers and faster colossi. So yeah, I like the idea with immortal drops. the 50 lings was an exaggeration Robo tech is kind of obligatory in every game though and been around this way for ages so i don't really think this is anything new, and i don't really see protoss players use immo drops to deny hatcheries the whole point of stargate tech early on is to abuse lack of zerg anti-air but zergs can now defend vs that and your immortals would just run in the arms of the cheap and efficient welcome board of zerglings making you a bad trade... as i see it at least You do know that 2 Immos kill a full hp hatch in around 20 in game seconds? Which is a lot less in real time. And you know how far the 3rd is on maps like taldarim? And Immos are pretty huge, so they can be placed between mineral patches, to greatly reduce the surface area of lings while they are focusfireing the hatch, and can also be picked up (old BW tank/dropship, reaver/shuttle micro), and dropped back on the other side of the hatch. I think this is doable. The greatest obstacle of such a strat in the past was the distrust towards the paper plane like warp prism. And now thats being fixed. yeah you're right it's doable, i've seen sickness doing funky shit with his immortals. but then you gotta distribute 70% of your apm on microing around with your very expensive units... but you definitely got a point there that on some maps it can be very cool but then still haven't seen anyone succesfully use this in high level games... It will come with time. Lets be honest, the current top pros are still terrible. ;-) I mean, not even top terrans pick up their MM that are blocked by FFs. Every time this happens, terran user on the forums go nuts. And IMO such tings should have been standard months ago. As well as void joggling and other cute plays. I expect nothing less from true gosus.
maybe, maybe not- but think about how a stargate opener is considered inefficient if it can't deny a hatch just kill some overlords and queens, or when you can't preserve your voids. I'm not sure that 2 immortals which you'll likely lose or possibly not use efficiently anymore after killing a hatch is different in that sense (ofc it's different a bit cuz u'd get a robo anyways in every game). using them 20 minutes later vs ultras is kinda the same as using your void 20 minutes later vs corruptor/broodlord
the whole immortal drop thing resembles thor drops in my mind and noone uses those anymore (not the same but they bear similarities)
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On August 31 2011 02:05 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 01:24 icarly wrote:On August 31 2011 00:46 adalcim wrote:
I really hoped that Genius will advance, so Huk is the last hope for Protoss. Hopefully he is ready for his match after MLG weekend. lol sorry mate, no chance mvp drops a game That's what they said about HuK v MMA in the Up and Downs before...
except that MVP is much better than MMA, MMA was worse back then and tvp is his worst matchup
but almost the same thing
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United Arab Emirates137 Posts
There is a saying from British Football by Gary Linekar:
"Soccer is a game for 22 people that run around, play the ball... and in the end, Germany always win"
I think this can be applied somewhat to SC2
"Starcraft two is a game for 2 people that fight eachother, do battle...and in the end, Terran always win"
In the last three days we have Terran winning MLG with more Terrans at the end than any other race a Terran vs Terran Code A Final and an all Terran Semi final.
Terrancraft.
Good luck Huk, I'll be rooting for you nonetheless.
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On August 31 2011 02:13 kemsley wrote:
There is a saying from British Football by Gary Linekar:
"Soccer is a game for 22 people that run around, play the ball... and in the end, Germany always win"
I think this can be applied somewhat to SC2
"Starcraft two is a game for 2 people that fight eachother, do battle...and in the end, Terran always win"
In the last three days we have Terran winning MLG with more Terrans at the end than any other race a Terran vs Terran Code A Final and an all Terran Semi final.
Terrancraft.
Good luck Huk, I'll be rooting for you nonetheless.
Are you saying that the Aryan race was overpowered or that Germans were just more skilled and disciplined at football than everyone else?
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darn, genius almost got into ro4 o well
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On August 31 2011 02:16 Asshat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 02:13 kemsley wrote:
There is a saying from British Football by Gary Linekar:
"Soccer is a game for 22 people that run around, play the ball... and in the end, Germany always win"
I think this can be applied somewhat to SC2
"Starcraft two is a game for 2 people that fight eachother, do battle...and in the end, Terran always win"
In the last three days we have Terran winning MLG with more Terrans at the end than any other race a Terran vs Terran Code A Final and an all Terran Semi final.
Terrancraft.
Good luck Huk, I'll be rooting for you nonetheless.
Are you saying that the Aryan race was overpowered or that Germans were just more skilled and disciplined at football than everyone else?
I laughed out loud on this, priceless
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Lol this is exactly how I feel in Ghost vs HTs battle. Look at MC vs Puma. MC outplayed him in game 2 at IEM, but 1 good EMP turn the battle of 30 supplies different in to Puma's favor. It's just ridiculous how you could EMP the same unit over and over again. Archon has 300 shield ? EMP 3 times !!! I guess this's kinda frustrating in PvT now, losing early game to 1/1/1 and ghost rush. Losing late game to Ghost MMM viking.
Genius play like a genius in the first game, but the next ones are just really sloppy and couldn't even defend any drop.
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Nooo Keen... you'll get them next time for sure.
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United Arab Emirates137 Posts
Are you saying that the Aryan race was overpowered or that Germans were just more skilled and disciplined at football than everyone else? by assshat
ROFL
Seriously is your name really "ass shat" I guess that quote isn't the only thing lost in translation...
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On August 31 2011 02:11 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 02:05 FairForever wrote:On August 31 2011 01:24 icarly wrote:On August 31 2011 00:46 adalcim wrote:
I really hoped that Genius will advance, so Huk is the last hope for Protoss. Hopefully he is ready for his match after MLG weekend. lol sorry mate, no chance mvp drops a game That's what they said about HuK v MMA in the Up and Downs before... except that MVP is much better than MMA, MMA was worse back then and tvp is his worst matchup but almost the same thing
My point is never say never, I LB'ed MVP and expect him to win, but crazier things have happened...
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On August 31 2011 02:16 Asshat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 02:13 kemsley wrote:
There is a saying from British Football by Gary Linekar:
"Soccer is a game for 22 people that run around, play the ball... and in the end, Germany always win"
I think this can be applied somewhat to SC2
"Starcraft two is a game for 2 people that fight eachother, do battle...and in the end, Terran always win"
In the last three days we have Terran winning MLG with more Terrans at the end than any other race a Terran vs Terran Code A Final and an all Terran Semi final.
Terrancraft.
Good luck Huk, I'll be rooting for you nonetheless.
Are you saying that the Aryan race was overpowered or that Germans were just more skilled and disciplined at football than everyone else?
Could not have thought of a better reply than this. Nice.
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On August 31 2011 02:27 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 02:11 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 02:05 FairForever wrote:On August 31 2011 01:24 icarly wrote:On August 31 2011 00:46 adalcim wrote:
I really hoped that Genius will advance, so Huk is the last hope for Protoss. Hopefully he is ready for his match after MLG weekend. lol sorry mate, no chance mvp drops a game That's what they said about HuK v MMA in the Up and Downs before... except that MVP is much better than MMA, MMA was worse back then and tvp is his worst matchup but almost the same thing My point is never say never, I LB'ed MVP and expect him to win, but crazier things have happened...
true dat- but after hulk's games vs Nada which looked pretty bad, it'd be a major upset if he beat MVP, imo
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On August 31 2011 02:27 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 02:11 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 02:05 FairForever wrote:On August 31 2011 01:24 icarly wrote:On August 31 2011 00:46 adalcim wrote:
I really hoped that Genius will advance, so Huk is the last hope for Protoss. Hopefully he is ready for his match after MLG weekend. lol sorry mate, no chance mvp drops a game That's what they said about HuK v MMA in the Up and Downs before... except that MVP is much better than MMA, MMA was worse back then and tvp is his worst matchup but almost the same thing My point is never say never, I LB'ed MVP and expect him to win, but crazier things have happened...
Yeah but it is a Bo5, so MVP should be able to do it just fine. I'm thinking a 3-1 but as you said who knows...
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On August 31 2011 02:13 kemsley wrote:
There is a saying from British Football by Gary Linekar:
"Soccer is a game for 22 people that run around, play the ball... and in the end, Germany always win"
I think this can be applied somewhat to SC2
"Starcraft two is a game for 2 people that fight eachother, do battle...and in the end, Terran always win"
In the last three days we have Terran winning MLG with more Terrans at the end than any other race a Terran vs Terran Code A Final and an all Terran Semi final.
Terrancraft.
Good luck Huk, I'll be rooting for you nonetheless.
erm Last GSL all protoss final for code A, all zerg final for code S. Not a single terran.
No balance update was given in between now and then.
If you look at the race with most gsl wins, its zerg, not terran...
Only reason there are a lot of terrans, is because the best players are playing that race.
There are only like 3 top players max for other races, but for terran there at least 10.
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EPT
