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On August 31 2011 00:51 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 00:49 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:29 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:59 msjakofsky wrote:On August 30 2011 23:45 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:38 Vertical wrote:why talking mineral lines guys  as a terran player im quite fucked up if 3 out of 5 rax i have lost its tech lab / reactor and those stuff has quite low HP + stalker deal bonus damage that should cut the production for some time or mass colosi and snipe the reactor at starport same as terran sniping robo bay or temp archive, no I think thats what Blizz has in mind with the new buff to immortals and WPs. Boost out 2 immos and a prism and go kill some add ons/depots in PvT, or go deny a 3rd in PvZ. well 8 stimmed marines beat the crap out of that in the past and will also do it in the future for half the cost and also having the potential to do like 10x as much damage when dropped in the right place. the buffs are good but don't get carried away I'm a protoss player, so dont go all cute on me, ok? The point is, that harass was so bad till now, that we protoss users are grateful for any buff we get in the harass dept. Regardless of how small it is. i'm a toss player too and +1 range for immortals made me happy but it didn't really help our harass capabilities imo. it mainly made immortal+other units synergy in a deathball better I dont know how it will work against terran, but against zerg it should be better at denying 3rd, than voids + phoenixes were till now. Just imagine a typical 3rd on taldarim, and a 1, 2 immortal drop there. Dont forget that immortals dont need to charge up, and even when they're charged, voids have less DPS than immortals. Don't immortals 2 shot workers? Just food for thought.
Doing this in a long macro game might be kinda risky. If you don't do a lot of damage then you just wasted a LOT of gas. While marine drops is just minerals.
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On August 31 2011 00:46 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 00:41 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 Probe1 wrote:You know what ranged unit is great at killing workers? High templar. Work with what you have instead of comparing zealots to marines guys  comparing those 2 units comes from comparing harass capabilities from 2 races which is acceptable isn't it? ht drops well.. those are cute but using such an expensive, helpless unit that requires high tech and an expensive upgrade... i mean it's more than nothing but it's kind of sad relatively to the other 2 races possibilities People have been using Templar drops since BW. The unit is expensive because it sends an 80dmg wave of death that insta kills all the workers and can easily escape with its life. Not only is it micro intensive, but has a high reward. And their NOT cute. Its a stable TACTIC that one can implement in the mid to late game to pressure the opponent and show your the better player with better multitasking abilities. Watch White-Ra.
White-Ra is a few tiers below code S level. I've never seen someone using storm drops in gsl in a regular fashion. BW storm also had like 2 times the damage and games there are much more macro oriented so losing 50/150 for each templar hurts less. Just think about the recent Puma/MC match where losing a few templars pretty much cost MC the game. My problem is with storm drops that you're pretty much planning on losing your whole drop and hope for results that make it worth.
I mean it's a possibility and can be good at times but has nowhere near the potential/accessability of a marine drop or muta harass.
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On August 31 2011 00:51 wintergt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 23:45 sleepingdog wrote:On August 30 2011 23:34 icarly wrote:On August 30 2011 22:02 sleepingdog wrote:On August 30 2011 21:46 Zealot Lord wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 Beardedclam wrote:On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. It is much much much harder to defend drops than to shift que a couple drops into the bases. By doing this you get so far ahead and it looks like amazing play, which in some cases it is, but it may not be. I think Blizzard realizes this - thats why if I'm not mistaken you can't shift que drop unless you have vision in the new patch. Basically it requires more apm to do multiprong drops, which I think is a fantastic way to approach it without nerfing/tweaking any units. I think people still underestimate how much harder it is for protoss to defend vs drops than for other races to execute them. Zerg usually has overlords/creep "somewhere" (or ought to have it to say the least), so this gets alleviated to some extent - protoss is supposed to cover the whole map with observers, still this is really, REALLY gas-intensive. This means, that you have to be prepared to defend vs drops basicly always, all the time. You can never have your attention slip, otherwise it's game over. The dropper, on the other hand, only has to focus WHEN he drops. The rest of the time he can safely macro up and be 100% focussed once the dropping action starts. I do NOT want to claim that TOP didn't deserve his win, Genius was the worse player overall, I have no problem accepting that. But people give multipronged drops way too much credit. TOP won because of flawless macro and some really screwed up decisions by Genius (attacking into choke point and PF? wtf?). The drops were executed well, but nothing overly amazing. hard for toss to defend against drops? The instant T drops toss warps in a round of units and looks away because they know it will get cleaned up. Killing 4 zealots requires so much more micro First of all, you only have enough warp-in-capabilities in lategame...or if your macro sucks. This is actually a problem I've seen regularly in games of progamers, and when I'm on top of my game also happens to me as well. Protoss players only have the possiblitiy to warp in a bunch of units when a drop flies in...if they have MISSED warpcycles before! It is extremely important that people understand this. The better a protoss player is, the fewer "idle" warpgates he will have at any given point in time to react to a drop. Overall, you can't rationally suggest to stack up ressources and let your macro slip just to be able to respond to drops should they occur. Secondly, marine/marauder/medivac have an insanely good synergy in small numbers vs protoss. This means, to clean up a drop - chasing it away if the T pays any attention - you have to bring MORE supply/ressources worth of units. This shouldn't be seen as a mere imba-QQ, but it is a straight fact. You can't defend drops with an equal amount of ressources invested in zealots/stalkers because protoss units work better in larger numbers vs bio. You can't reasonably pull a single colossus, without gateway support it will just get sniped by marauders. If they can hit them, marauders are actually quite good vs colossi. Furthermore, you obviously can't react with sentries, which is the go-to response to small numbers of MM in the early game. HTs only work if the T is bad enough to drop with medivacs that have full energy. Using storm on a 4 marauder drop is pretty stupid, as the marauders can be microed out of the storm easily and then the 150 gas HT is toast. Once zealots have charge, you can warp in 4 of them and they'll clean up any 1 medivac drop on their own. I've seen this happen a lot in progamer matches. You can get more creative and add some stalkers and micro them to try and snipe the medivac or something but in general speedlots will do. Or who was it that warped in a DT vs drops, kiwikaki? That was pretty nifty aswell.
3 Orbitals is max 12 scans. That's 12 potential mules. By poking and NOT SUICIDING your DTs you force them to save and use scans rather then mules to try to kill your DTs. Many time Terran has to use 2 scans for one flipping DT. As a result Terran has thousands of less minerals to use in his army while you use all your DTs YOU DID NOT SUICIDE to morph into archons.
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On August 31 2011 00:51 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 00:49 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:29 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:59 msjakofsky wrote:On August 30 2011 23:45 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:38 Vertical wrote:why talking mineral lines guys as a terran player im quite fucked up if 3 out of 5 rax i have lost its tech lab / reactor and those stuff has quite low HP + stalker deal bonus damage that should cut the production for some time or mass colosi and snipe the reactor at starport same as terran sniping robo bay or temp archive, no I think thats what Blizz has in mind with the new buff to immortals and WPs. Boost out 2 immos and a prism and go kill some add ons/depots in PvT, or go deny a 3rd in PvZ. well 8 stimmed marines beat the crap out of that in the past and will also do it in the future for half the cost and also having the potential to do like 10x as much damage when dropped in the right place. the buffs are good but don't get carried away I'm a protoss player, so dont go all cute on me, ok? The point is, that harass was so bad till now, that we protoss users are grateful for any buff we get in the harass dept. Regardless of how small it is. i'm a toss player too and +1 range for immortals made me happy but it didn't really help our harass capabilities imo. it mainly made immortal+other units synergy in a deathball better I dont know how it will work against terran, but against zerg it should be better at denying 3rd, than voids + phoenixes were till now. Just imagine a typical 3rd on taldarim, and a 1, 2 immortal drop there. Dont forget that immortals dont need to charge up, and even when they're charged, voids have less DPS than immortals. Don't immortals 2 shot workers? Just food for thought.
Probes and drones, not SCVs.
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Too many templar thrown away.
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On August 31 2011 00:46 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 00:41 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 Probe1 wrote:You know what ranged unit is great at killing workers? High templar. Work with what you have instead of comparing zealots to marines guys comparing those 2 units comes from comparing harass capabilities from 2 races which is acceptable isn't it? ht drops well.. those are cute but using such an expensive, helpless unit that requires high tech and an expensive upgrade... i mean it's more than nothing but it's kind of sad relatively to the other 2 races possibilities People have been using Templar drops since BW. The unit is expensive because it sends an 80dmg wave of death that insta kills all the workers and can easily escape with its life. Not only is it micro intensive, but has a high reward. And their NOT cute. Its a stable TACTIC that one can implement in the mid to late game to pressure the opponent and show your the better player with better multitasking abilities. Watch White-Ra.
In BW mineral lines were more clumped, HT tech was on the same and faster tech as DTs and shuttles were better, storm did more damage. Before 20 mins, if you invest in templar tech, you can not lose templar because you need them to survive. It's not like dropping marines, if you have HT tech you have no colossi and if the terran pushes after you just used all your energy it's gg. By the time it's a reliable and realistic form of harassment you'll probably just be doing the terran a favor by freeing up supply.
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On August 31 2011 00:55 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 00:46 GinDo wrote:On August 31 2011 00:41 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 Probe1 wrote:You know what ranged unit is great at killing workers? High templar. Work with what you have instead of comparing zealots to marines guys comparing those 2 units comes from comparing harass capabilities from 2 races which is acceptable isn't it? ht drops well.. those are cute but using such an expensive, helpless unit that requires high tech and an expensive upgrade... i mean it's more than nothing but it's kind of sad relatively to the other 2 races possibilities People have been using Templar drops since BW. The unit is expensive because it sends an 80dmg wave of death that insta kills all the workers and can easily escape with its life. Not only is it micro intensive, but has a high reward. And their NOT cute. Its a stable TACTIC that one can implement in the mid to late game to pressure the opponent and show your the better player with better multitasking abilities. Watch White-Ra. White-Ra is a few tiers below code S level. I've never seen someone using storm drops in gsl in a regular fashion. BW storm also had like 2 times the damage and games there are much more macro oriented so losing 50/150 for each templar hurts less. Just think about the recent Puma/MC match where losing a few templars pretty much cost MC the game. My problem is with storm drops that you're pretty much planning on losing your whole drop and hope for results that make it worth. I mean it's a possibility and can be good at times but has nowhere near the potential/accessability of a marine drop or muta harass.
bw storms did +40 damage, far cry from 2x. HuK has been doing storm drops recently, although he uses it to flank the enemy for better storms, Everything has an inherent risk, storm drops just has a bit more (think reaver drops in bw).
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On August 31 2011 00:49 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 00:36 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:29 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:59 msjakofsky wrote:On August 30 2011 23:45 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:38 Vertical wrote:why talking mineral lines guys as a terran player im quite fucked up if 3 out of 5 rax i have lost its tech lab / reactor and those stuff has quite low HP + stalker deal bonus damage that should cut the production for some time or mass colosi and snipe the reactor at starport same as terran sniping robo bay or temp archive, no I think thats what Blizz has in mind with the new buff to immortals and WPs. Boost out 2 immos and a prism and go kill some add ons/depots in PvT, or go deny a 3rd in PvZ. well 8 stimmed marines beat the crap out of that in the past and will also do it in the future for half the cost and also having the potential to do like 10x as much damage when dropped in the right place. the buffs are good but don't get carried away I'm a protoss player, so dont go all cute on me, ok? The point is, that harass was so bad till now, that we protoss users are grateful for any buff we get in the harass dept. Regardless of how small it is. i'm a toss player too and +1 range for immortals made me happy but it didn't really help our harass capabilities imo. it mainly made immortal+other units synergy in a deathball better I dont know how it will work against terran, but against zerg it should be better at denying 3rd, than voids + phoenixes were till now. Just imagine a typical 3rd on taldarim, and a 1, 2 immortal drop there. Dont forget that immortals dont need to charge up, and even when they're charged, voids have less DPS than immortals.
well if you compare immo drop vs void, to make the comparison complete you have to take into consideration that immortals are only really efficient vs roaches and buildings in a standard zerg midgame army and they cost a lot of money too. they suck vs speedlings and any zerg will have like 50 of those by the time you get your two immortals in place. You also need the warp prism which is more robo production time and another unit that can be killed to ruin the drop. Also the buff doesn't really change much you if your intent is just to kill a building
Void rays (maybe paired with penises) can clean up several overlords, position themselves better due to being aerial and can also clean up ground units that don't have anti air. But then zergs can defend vs this easily as well
i don't really like either possibility honestly
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On August 31 2011 00:55 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 00:51 wintergt wrote:On August 30 2011 23:45 sleepingdog wrote:On August 30 2011 23:34 icarly wrote:On August 30 2011 22:02 sleepingdog wrote:On August 30 2011 21:46 Zealot Lord wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 Beardedclam wrote:On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:
[quote]
I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL.
But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4.
It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all.
The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. It is much much much harder to defend drops than to shift que a couple drops into the bases. By doing this you get so far ahead and it looks like amazing play, which in some cases it is, but it may not be. I think Blizzard realizes this - thats why if I'm not mistaken you can't shift que drop unless you have vision in the new patch. Basically it requires more apm to do multiprong drops, which I think is a fantastic way to approach it without nerfing/tweaking any units. I think people still underestimate how much harder it is for protoss to defend vs drops than for other races to execute them. Zerg usually has overlords/creep "somewhere" (or ought to have it to say the least), so this gets alleviated to some extent - protoss is supposed to cover the whole map with observers, still this is really, REALLY gas-intensive. This means, that you have to be prepared to defend vs drops basicly always, all the time. You can never have your attention slip, otherwise it's game over. The dropper, on the other hand, only has to focus WHEN he drops. The rest of the time he can safely macro up and be 100% focussed once the dropping action starts. I do NOT want to claim that TOP didn't deserve his win, Genius was the worse player overall, I have no problem accepting that. But people give multipronged drops way too much credit. TOP won because of flawless macro and some really screwed up decisions by Genius (attacking into choke point and PF? wtf?). The drops were executed well, but nothing overly amazing. hard for toss to defend against drops? The instant T drops toss warps in a round of units and looks away because they know it will get cleaned up. Killing 4 zealots requires so much more micro First of all, you only have enough warp-in-capabilities in lategame...or if your macro sucks. This is actually a problem I've seen regularly in games of progamers, and when I'm on top of my game also happens to me as well. Protoss players only have the possiblitiy to warp in a bunch of units when a drop flies in...if they have MISSED warpcycles before! It is extremely important that people understand this. The better a protoss player is, the fewer "idle" warpgates he will have at any given point in time to react to a drop. Overall, you can't rationally suggest to stack up ressources and let your macro slip just to be able to respond to drops should they occur. Secondly, marine/marauder/medivac have an insanely good synergy in small numbers vs protoss. This means, to clean up a drop - chasing it away if the T pays any attention - you have to bring MORE supply/ressources worth of units. This shouldn't be seen as a mere imba-QQ, but it is a straight fact. You can't defend drops with an equal amount of ressources invested in zealots/stalkers because protoss units work better in larger numbers vs bio. You can't reasonably pull a single colossus, without gateway support it will just get sniped by marauders. If they can hit them, marauders are actually quite good vs colossi. Furthermore, you obviously can't react with sentries, which is the go-to response to small numbers of MM in the early game. HTs only work if the T is bad enough to drop with medivacs that have full energy. Using storm on a 4 marauder drop is pretty stupid, as the marauders can be microed out of the storm easily and then the 150 gas HT is toast. Once zealots have charge, you can warp in 4 of them and they'll clean up any 1 medivac drop on their own. I've seen this happen a lot in progamer matches. You can get more creative and add some stalkers and micro them to try and snipe the medivac or something but in general speedlots will do. Or who was it that warped in a DT vs drops, kiwikaki? That was pretty nifty aswell. 3 Orbitals is max 12 scans. That's 12 potential mules. By poking and NOT SUICIDING your DTs you force them to save and use scans rather then mules to try to kill your DTs. Many time Terran has to use 2 scans for one flipping DT. As a result Terran has thousands of less minerals to use in his army while you use all your DTs YOU DID NOT SUICIDE to morph into archons.
You do realize that 250 gas is a really big investment. First of all, every smart terran will have a turret in their natural around 730 to prevent DTs in the first place. 2nd of all, most terrans WILL kill a DT with ONE scan....the range is huge and i rarely see people miss the DT with one scan. On that note, yeah you're right its a waste of a mule, but youre acting like DT's are free. They are 125/125, which makes the trade off pretty even imo, since protoss is much more gas reliant than terran in this matchup. Its almost impossible to have a DT in a terran main or expo and not have it die, especially b/c of cuncussive and stim.
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On August 31 2011 01:01 Soulish wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 00:55 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:46 GinDo wrote:On August 31 2011 00:41 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 Probe1 wrote:You know what ranged unit is great at killing workers? High templar. Work with what you have instead of comparing zealots to marines guys comparing those 2 units comes from comparing harass capabilities from 2 races which is acceptable isn't it? ht drops well.. those are cute but using such an expensive, helpless unit that requires high tech and an expensive upgrade... i mean it's more than nothing but it's kind of sad relatively to the other 2 races possibilities People have been using Templar drops since BW. The unit is expensive because it sends an 80dmg wave of death that insta kills all the workers and can easily escape with its life. Not only is it micro intensive, but has a high reward. And their NOT cute. Its a stable TACTIC that one can implement in the mid to late game to pressure the opponent and show your the better player with better multitasking abilities. Watch White-Ra. White-Ra is a few tiers below code S level. I've never seen someone using storm drops in gsl in a regular fashion. BW storm also had like 2 times the damage and games there are much more macro oriented so losing 50/150 for each templar hurts less. Just think about the recent Puma/MC match where losing a few templars pretty much cost MC the game. My problem is with storm drops that you're pretty much planning on losing your whole drop and hope for results that make it worth. I mean it's a possibility and can be good at times but has nowhere near the potential/accessability of a marine drop or muta harass. bw storms did +40 damage, far cry from 2x. HuK has been doing storm drops recently, although he uses it to flank the enemy for better storms, Everything has an inherent risk, storm drops just has a bit more (think reaver drops in bw).
the relative risk of losing 400 minerals worth of marines is less than losing 2 templars, also marines+medivacs are present in any standard terran game.
BW storms destroyed a bunch of workers in like 2 seconds while in SC2 it's easier to dodge them. Also Reavers could 1shot a clump of units instantly and the standard tvp army didn't have much anti air so it was easier to find blank spots to drop your units
I mean you're right it has potential but it's just not as good when you look at every factor
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On August 31 2011 00:55 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 00:51 GinDo wrote:On August 31 2011 00:49 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:29 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:59 msjakofsky wrote:On August 30 2011 23:45 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:38 Vertical wrote:why talking mineral lines guys as a terran player im quite fucked up if 3 out of 5 rax i have lost its tech lab / reactor and those stuff has quite low HP + stalker deal bonus damage that should cut the production for some time or mass colosi and snipe the reactor at starport same as terran sniping robo bay or temp archive, no I think thats what Blizz has in mind with the new buff to immortals and WPs. Boost out 2 immos and a prism and go kill some add ons/depots in PvT, or go deny a 3rd in PvZ. well 8 stimmed marines beat the crap out of that in the past and will also do it in the future for half the cost and also having the potential to do like 10x as much damage when dropped in the right place. the buffs are good but don't get carried away I'm a protoss player, so dont go all cute on me, ok? The point is, that harass was so bad till now, that we protoss users are grateful for any buff we get in the harass dept. Regardless of how small it is. i'm a toss player too and +1 range for immortals made me happy but it didn't really help our harass capabilities imo. it mainly made immortal+other units synergy in a deathball better I dont know how it will work against terran, but against zerg it should be better at denying 3rd, than voids + phoenixes were till now. Just imagine a typical 3rd on taldarim, and a 1, 2 immortal drop there. Dont forget that immortals dont need to charge up, and even when they're charged, voids have less DPS than immortals. Don't immortals 2 shot workers? Just food for thought. Probes and drones, not SCVs.
actually just probes...drones regain 1 hp back instantly so it takes 3 shots as well.
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On August 31 2011 01:04 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 00:49 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:29 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:59 msjakofsky wrote:On August 30 2011 23:45 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:38 Vertical wrote:why talking mineral lines guys as a terran player im quite fucked up if 3 out of 5 rax i have lost its tech lab / reactor and those stuff has quite low HP + stalker deal bonus damage that should cut the production for some time or mass colosi and snipe the reactor at starport same as terran sniping robo bay or temp archive, no I think thats what Blizz has in mind with the new buff to immortals and WPs. Boost out 2 immos and a prism and go kill some add ons/depots in PvT, or go deny a 3rd in PvZ. well 8 stimmed marines beat the crap out of that in the past and will also do it in the future for half the cost and also having the potential to do like 10x as much damage when dropped in the right place. the buffs are good but don't get carried away I'm a protoss player, so dont go all cute on me, ok? The point is, that harass was so bad till now, that we protoss users are grateful for any buff we get in the harass dept. Regardless of how small it is. i'm a toss player too and +1 range for immortals made me happy but it didn't really help our harass capabilities imo. it mainly made immortal+other units synergy in a deathball better I dont know how it will work against terran, but against zerg it should be better at denying 3rd, than voids + phoenixes were till now. Just imagine a typical 3rd on taldarim, and a 1, 2 immortal drop there. Dont forget that immortals dont need to charge up, and even when they're charged, voids have less DPS than immortals. well if you compare immo drop vs void, to make the comparison complete you have to take into consideration that immortals are only really efficient vs roaches and buildings in a standard zerg midgame army and they cost a lot of money too. they suck vs speedlings and any zerg will have like 50 of those by the time you get your two immortals in place. You also need the warp prism which is more robo production time and another unit that can be killed to ruin the drop. Also the buff doesn't really change much you if your intent is just to kill a building Void rays (maybe paired with penises) can clean up several overlords, position themselves better due to being aerial and can also clean up ground units that don't have anti air. But then zergs can defend vs this easily as well i don't really like either possibility honestly
Everything except the statement with 50 speedlings is correct.
However, I think it is good that there is now a 2nd form of harassment, which requires a different response from the zerg. Some zergs were starting to blind counter voids/ps, and that kind of predictability is not good.
Besides, robo is much better tech than stargate.
What a protoss would do with voids is force hydras, and counter with colossi. But now, the tech path is much more stable. YOu may not end up forcing anything with WP/Immos, except more queens/sores, but you will also be able to get more observers and faster colossi. So yeah, I like the idea with immortal drops.
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On August 30 2011 22:03 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:59 Belisarius wrote:On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated. Zealot drops really don't work. They never do enough damage, and even if it "only costs minerals," it's still 600 minerals all up, 400 if you somehow save the prism. You need to do damage to justify that investment. And the reason storm drops are so rare is because the prism is both fragile and slow. If you run into even a single viking, you lose everything within seconds, no way out. Losing a pair of high-energy templar like that hurts more than you can imagine. Medivacs can drop their marines and shoo away the A2A. Even zerg can drop their blings or whatever and leg it back to base if they have to, not to mention the ovie's durability and surprising speed once it's upgraded. HT-prisms have the pentuple setback of being the most fragile, the most micro and setup-intensive, the most defenceless, arguably the most expensive, and carrying a cargo which is so slow that there's no way it will make it back to base on foot. That's, in short, why I don't do them very often. Pros pull them off from time to time, and it's always epic when they do, but they really are a lot harder and a lot riskier than the other race's drops. Maybe comparable to infestor drops from Z. With the prism speed upgrade, which I think is underused, and the buff to prism health, maybe some of that will be mitigated. Total investment to drop 4 Zealots into a base with a Warp Prism 600 minerals. Total Investment to drop 8 Marines into a base with a Medivac, 500 Minerals 100 gas. The mineral cost is comparable and there's the added gas cost. The perk of the Medivac drop is that medivacs can heal their occupants, the perk of a Warp Prism drop is that if the Warp Prism isn't destroyed immediately you can use it to reinforce that drop with whatever units you like from a Warp Gate. The risks involved in dropping are general risks. Medivacs are almost as easy to shoot down as Warp Prisms are. I admit that Warp Prisms are a little too fragile right now, but I really can't see why Protoss wouldn't utilize Zealot drops once that buff goes through.
Minerals are more important to T, so i think most terrans would take a 100/100 cost medivac over a 200 mineral medivac....dunno though. Just thought this b/c many koreans were saying that the ghost change from 150/150 to 200/100 was a nerf, because gas was never the limiting resource.
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On August 31 2011 01:13 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 01:04 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:49 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:29 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:59 msjakofsky wrote:On August 30 2011 23:45 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:38 Vertical wrote:why talking mineral lines guys as a terran player im quite fucked up if 3 out of 5 rax i have lost its tech lab / reactor and those stuff has quite low HP + stalker deal bonus damage that should cut the production for some time or mass colosi and snipe the reactor at starport same as terran sniping robo bay or temp archive, no I think thats what Blizz has in mind with the new buff to immortals and WPs. Boost out 2 immos and a prism and go kill some add ons/depots in PvT, or go deny a 3rd in PvZ. well 8 stimmed marines beat the crap out of that in the past and will also do it in the future for half the cost and also having the potential to do like 10x as much damage when dropped in the right place. the buffs are good but don't get carried away I'm a protoss player, so dont go all cute on me, ok? The point is, that harass was so bad till now, that we protoss users are grateful for any buff we get in the harass dept. Regardless of how small it is. i'm a toss player too and +1 range for immortals made me happy but it didn't really help our harass capabilities imo. it mainly made immortal+other units synergy in a deathball better I dont know how it will work against terran, but against zerg it should be better at denying 3rd, than voids + phoenixes were till now. Just imagine a typical 3rd on taldarim, and a 1, 2 immortal drop there. Dont forget that immortals dont need to charge up, and even when they're charged, voids have less DPS than immortals. well if you compare immo drop vs void, to make the comparison complete you have to take into consideration that immortals are only really efficient vs roaches and buildings in a standard zerg midgame army and they cost a lot of money too. they suck vs speedlings and any zerg will have like 50 of those by the time you get your two immortals in place. You also need the warp prism which is more robo production time and another unit that can be killed to ruin the drop. Also the buff doesn't really change much you if your intent is just to kill a building Void rays (maybe paired with penises) can clean up several overlords, position themselves better due to being aerial and can also clean up ground units that don't have anti air. But then zergs can defend vs this easily as well i don't really like either possibility honestly Everything except the statement with 50 speedlings is correct. However, I think it is good that there is now a 2nd form of harassment, which requires a different response from the zerg. Some zergs were starting to blind counter voids/ps, and that kind of predictability is not good. Besides, robo is much better tech than stargate. What a protoss would do with voids is force hydras, and counter with colossi. But now, the tech path is much more stable. YOu may not end up forcing anything with WP/Immos, except more queens/sores, but you will also be able to get more observers and faster colossi. So yeah, I like the idea with immortal drops.
the 50 lings was an exaggeration
Robo tech is kind of obligatory in every game though and been around this way for ages so i don't really think this is anything new, and i don't really see protoss players use immo drops to deny hatcheries
the whole point of stargate tech early on is to abuse lack of zerg anti-air but zergs can now defend vs that and your immortals would just run in the arms of the cheap and efficient welcome board of zerglings making you a bad trade... as i see it at least
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On August 31 2011 00:46 adalcim wrote:
I really hoped that Genius will advance, so Huk is the last hope for Protoss. Hopefully he is ready for his match after MLG weekend.
lol sorry mate, no chance mvp drops a game
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On August 31 2011 01:12 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 01:01 Soulish wrote:On August 31 2011 00:55 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:46 GinDo wrote:On August 31 2011 00:41 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 Probe1 wrote:You know what ranged unit is great at killing workers? High templar. Work with what you have instead of comparing zealots to marines guys comparing those 2 units comes from comparing harass capabilities from 2 races which is acceptable isn't it? ht drops well.. those are cute but using such an expensive, helpless unit that requires high tech and an expensive upgrade... i mean it's more than nothing but it's kind of sad relatively to the other 2 races possibilities People have been using Templar drops since BW. The unit is expensive because it sends an 80dmg wave of death that insta kills all the workers and can easily escape with its life. Not only is it micro intensive, but has a high reward. And their NOT cute. Its a stable TACTIC that one can implement in the mid to late game to pressure the opponent and show your the better player with better multitasking abilities. Watch White-Ra. White-Ra is a few tiers below code S level. I've never seen someone using storm drops in gsl in a regular fashion. BW storm also had like 2 times the damage and games there are much more macro oriented so losing 50/150 for each templar hurts less. Just think about the recent Puma/MC match where losing a few templars pretty much cost MC the game. My problem is with storm drops that you're pretty much planning on losing your whole drop and hope for results that make it worth. I mean it's a possibility and can be good at times but has nowhere near the potential/accessability of a marine drop or muta harass. bw storms did +40 damage, far cry from 2x. HuK has been doing storm drops recently, although he uses it to flank the enemy for better storms, Everything has an inherent risk, storm drops just has a bit more (think reaver drops in bw). the relative risk of losing 400 minerals worth of marines is less than losing 2 templars, also marines+medivacs are present in any standard terran game. BW storms destroyed a bunch of workers in like 2 seconds while in SC2 it's easier to dodge them. Also Reavers could 1shot a clump of units instantly and the standard tvp army didn't have much anti air so it was easier to find blank spots to drop your units I mean you're right it has potential but it's just not as good when you look at every factor
Well, SCVs also had 60 hp in BW but have slower acceleration than drones/probes. But the reduction of storm from around 120ish damage to 80 does reduce the potency of storm drops.
I think the problem goes back to the colossus again. In BW, the counter to a standard protoss army is vultures/tanks. That made templar drops more viable and made zealot bombs on top of clumped tanks a good strategy. Making wraiths would weaken your ground army against the protoss army. Colossi are countered by vikings, so the counter to warp prisms and carriers is readily available.
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On August 31 2011 01:24 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 01:12 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 01:01 Soulish wrote:On August 31 2011 00:55 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:46 GinDo wrote:On August 31 2011 00:41 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 Probe1 wrote:You know what ranged unit is great at killing workers? High templar. Work with what you have instead of comparing zealots to marines guys comparing those 2 units comes from comparing harass capabilities from 2 races which is acceptable isn't it? ht drops well.. those are cute but using such an expensive, helpless unit that requires high tech and an expensive upgrade... i mean it's more than nothing but it's kind of sad relatively to the other 2 races possibilities People have been using Templar drops since BW. The unit is expensive because it sends an 80dmg wave of death that insta kills all the workers and can easily escape with its life. Not only is it micro intensive, but has a high reward. And their NOT cute. Its a stable TACTIC that one can implement in the mid to late game to pressure the opponent and show your the better player with better multitasking abilities. Watch White-Ra. White-Ra is a few tiers below code S level. I've never seen someone using storm drops in gsl in a regular fashion. BW storm also had like 2 times the damage and games there are much more macro oriented so losing 50/150 for each templar hurts less. Just think about the recent Puma/MC match where losing a few templars pretty much cost MC the game. My problem is with storm drops that you're pretty much planning on losing your whole drop and hope for results that make it worth. I mean it's a possibility and can be good at times but has nowhere near the potential/accessability of a marine drop or muta harass. bw storms did +40 damage, far cry from 2x. HuK has been doing storm drops recently, although he uses it to flank the enemy for better storms, Everything has an inherent risk, storm drops just has a bit more (think reaver drops in bw). the relative risk of losing 400 minerals worth of marines is less than losing 2 templars, also marines+medivacs are present in any standard terran game. BW storms destroyed a bunch of workers in like 2 seconds while in SC2 it's easier to dodge them. Also Reavers could 1shot a clump of units instantly and the standard tvp army didn't have much anti air so it was easier to find blank spots to drop your units I mean you're right it has potential but it's just not as good when you look at every factor I think the problem goes back to the colossus again. In BW, the counter to a standard protoss army is vultures/tanks. That made templar drops more viable and made zealot bombs on top of clumped tanks a good strategy. Making wraiths would weaken your ground army against the protoss army. Colossi are countered by vikings, so the counter to warp prisms and carriers is readily available.
yeah well that was one of my points. very true that the sc2 equivalent of reaver is harcountered by a standard terran unit...
But coloxen also kill stuff like 10 times slower than those fat grubs and cost more. Robo production time also wasn't as precious in bw, you gotta constantly keep producing coloxen in a standard tvp when you trade armies all the time
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On August 31 2011 01:21 msjakofsky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 01:13 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:04 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:49 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:29 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:59 msjakofsky wrote:On August 30 2011 23:45 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:38 Vertical wrote:why talking mineral lines guys as a terran player im quite fucked up if 3 out of 5 rax i have lost its tech lab / reactor and those stuff has quite low HP + stalker deal bonus damage that should cut the production for some time or mass colosi and snipe the reactor at starport same as terran sniping robo bay or temp archive, no I think thats what Blizz has in mind with the new buff to immortals and WPs. Boost out 2 immos and a prism and go kill some add ons/depots in PvT, or go deny a 3rd in PvZ. well 8 stimmed marines beat the crap out of that in the past and will also do it in the future for half the cost and also having the potential to do like 10x as much damage when dropped in the right place. the buffs are good but don't get carried away I'm a protoss player, so dont go all cute on me, ok? The point is, that harass was so bad till now, that we protoss users are grateful for any buff we get in the harass dept. Regardless of how small it is. i'm a toss player too and +1 range for immortals made me happy but it didn't really help our harass capabilities imo. it mainly made immortal+other units synergy in a deathball better I dont know how it will work against terran, but against zerg it should be better at denying 3rd, than voids + phoenixes were till now. Just imagine a typical 3rd on taldarim, and a 1, 2 immortal drop there. Dont forget that immortals dont need to charge up, and even when they're charged, voids have less DPS than immortals. well if you compare immo drop vs void, to make the comparison complete you have to take into consideration that immortals are only really efficient vs roaches and buildings in a standard zerg midgame army and they cost a lot of money too. they suck vs speedlings and any zerg will have like 50 of those by the time you get your two immortals in place. You also need the warp prism which is more robo production time and another unit that can be killed to ruin the drop. Also the buff doesn't really change much you if your intent is just to kill a building Void rays (maybe paired with penises) can clean up several overlords, position themselves better due to being aerial and can also clean up ground units that don't have anti air. But then zergs can defend vs this easily as well i don't really like either possibility honestly Everything except the statement with 50 speedlings is correct. However, I think it is good that there is now a 2nd form of harassment, which requires a different response from the zerg. Some zergs were starting to blind counter voids/ps, and that kind of predictability is not good. Besides, robo is much better tech than stargate. What a protoss would do with voids is force hydras, and counter with colossi. But now, the tech path is much more stable. YOu may not end up forcing anything with WP/Immos, except more queens/sores, but you will also be able to get more observers and faster colossi. So yeah, I like the idea with immortal drops. the 50 lings was an exaggeration Robo tech is kind of obligatory in every game though and been around this way for ages so i don't really think this is anything new, and i don't really see protoss players use immo drops to deny hatcheries the whole point of stargate tech early on is to abuse lack of zerg anti-air but zergs can now defend vs that and your immortals would just run in the arms of the cheap and efficient welcome board of zerglings making you a bad trade... as i see it at least You do know that 2 Immos kill a full hp hatch in around 20 in game seconds? Which is a lot less in real time.
And you know how far the 3rd is on maps like taldarim? And Immos are pretty huge, so they can be placed between mineral patches, to greatly reduce the surface area of lings while they are focusfireing the hatch, and can also be picked up (old BW tank/dropship, reaver/shuttle micro), and dropped back on the other side of the hatch.
I think this is doable. The greatest obstacle of such a strat in the past was the distrust towards the paper plane like warp prism. And now thats being fixed.
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On August 31 2011 01:34 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 31 2011 01:21 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 01:13 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 01:04 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:49 IVN wrote:On August 31 2011 00:36 msjakofsky wrote:On August 31 2011 00:29 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:59 msjakofsky wrote:On August 30 2011 23:45 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 23:38 Vertical wrote:why talking mineral lines guys as a terran player im quite fucked up if 3 out of 5 rax i have lost its tech lab / reactor and those stuff has quite low HP + stalker deal bonus damage that should cut the production for some time or mass colosi and snipe the reactor at starport same as terran sniping robo bay or temp archive, no I think thats what Blizz has in mind with the new buff to immortals and WPs. Boost out 2 immos and a prism and go kill some add ons/depots in PvT, or go deny a 3rd in PvZ. well 8 stimmed marines beat the crap out of that in the past and will also do it in the future for half the cost and also having the potential to do like 10x as much damage when dropped in the right place. the buffs are good but don't get carried away I'm a protoss player, so dont go all cute on me, ok? The point is, that harass was so bad till now, that we protoss users are grateful for any buff we get in the harass dept. Regardless of how small it is. i'm a toss player too and +1 range for immortals made me happy but it didn't really help our harass capabilities imo. it mainly made immortal+other units synergy in a deathball better I dont know how it will work against terran, but against zerg it should be better at denying 3rd, than voids + phoenixes were till now. Just imagine a typical 3rd on taldarim, and a 1, 2 immortal drop there. Dont forget that immortals dont need to charge up, and even when they're charged, voids have less DPS than immortals. well if you compare immo drop vs void, to make the comparison complete you have to take into consideration that immortals are only really efficient vs roaches and buildings in a standard zerg midgame army and they cost a lot of money too. they suck vs speedlings and any zerg will have like 50 of those by the time you get your two immortals in place. You also need the warp prism which is more robo production time and another unit that can be killed to ruin the drop. Also the buff doesn't really change much you if your intent is just to kill a building Void rays (maybe paired with penises) can clean up several overlords, position themselves better due to being aerial and can also clean up ground units that don't have anti air. But then zergs can defend vs this easily as well i don't really like either possibility honestly Everything except the statement with 50 speedlings is correct. However, I think it is good that there is now a 2nd form of harassment, which requires a different response from the zerg. Some zergs were starting to blind counter voids/ps, and that kind of predictability is not good. Besides, robo is much better tech than stargate. What a protoss would do with voids is force hydras, and counter with colossi. But now, the tech path is much more stable. YOu may not end up forcing anything with WP/Immos, except more queens/sores, but you will also be able to get more observers and faster colossi. So yeah, I like the idea with immortal drops. the 50 lings was an exaggeration Robo tech is kind of obligatory in every game though and been around this way for ages so i don't really think this is anything new, and i don't really see protoss players use immo drops to deny hatcheries the whole point of stargate tech early on is to abuse lack of zerg anti-air but zergs can now defend vs that and your immortals would just run in the arms of the cheap and efficient welcome board of zerglings making you a bad trade... as i see it at least You do know that 2 Immos kill a full hp hatch in around 20 in game seconds? Which is a lot less in real time. And you know how far the 3rd is on maps like taldarim? And Immos are pretty huge, so they can be placed between mineral patches, to greatly reduce the surface area of lings while they are focusfireing the hatch, and can also be picked up (old BW tank/dropship, reaver/shuttle micro), and dropped back on the other side of the hatch. I think this is doable. The greatest obstacle of such a strat in the past was the distrust towards the paper plane like warp prism. And now thats being fixed.
yeah you're right it's doable, i've seen sickness doing funky shit with his immortals. but then you gotta distribute 70% of your apm on microing around with your very expensive units... but you definitely got a point there that on some maps it can be very cool
but then still haven't seen anyone succesfully use this in high level games...
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EPT
