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On August 30 2011 22:03 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:59 Belisarius wrote:On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated. Zealot drops really don't work. They never do enough damage, and even if it "only costs minerals," it's still 600 minerals all up, 400 if you somehow save the prism. You need to do damage to justify that investment. And the reason storm drops are so rare is because the prism is both fragile and slow. If you run into even a single viking, you lose everything within seconds, no way out. Losing a pair of high-energy templar like that hurts more than you can imagine. Medivacs can drop their marines and shoo away the A2A. Even zerg can drop their blings or whatever and leg it back to base if they have to, not to mention the ovie's durability and surprising speed once it's upgraded. HT-prisms have the pentuple setback of being the most fragile, the most micro and setup-intensive, the most defenceless, arguably the most expensive, and carrying a cargo which is so slow that there's no way it will make it back to base on foot. That's, in short, why I don't do them very often. Pros pull them off from time to time, and it's always epic when they do, but they really are a lot harder and a lot riskier than the other race's drops. Maybe comparable to infestor drops from Z. With the prism speed upgrade, which I think is underused, and the buff to prism health, maybe some of that will be mitigated. Total investment to drop 4 Zealots into a base with a Warp Prism 600 minerals. Total Investment to drop 8 Marines into a base with a Medivac, 500 Minerals 100 gas. The mineral cost is comparable and there's the added gas cost. The perk of the Medivac drop is that medivacs can heal their occupants, the perk of a Warp Prism drop is that if the Warp Prism isn't destroyed immediately you can use it to reinforce that drop with whatever units you like from a Warp Gate. The risks involved in dropping are general risks. Medivacs are almost as easy to shoot down as Warp Prisms are. I admit that Warp Prisms are a little too fragile right now, but I really can't see why Protoss wouldn't utilize Zealot drops once that buff goes through.
They might utilize them. However I still think that zealot drops will be fairly ineffective.
What you are forgetting here, is that marines with stim are much faster than workers, and that they also have amazing DPS, so killing workers with stimmed marines is ez pz. OTOH zealots are much slower than workers, and even with charge they will only get a hit of every 10 sec. So with 4 chargelots you will probably be able to kill 2, 3 workers every 10 sek. Thats just not enough.
In 10 sec 8 stimed marines can kill more than half the mineral line.
THAT'S the true difference.
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On August 30 2011 22:16 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:42 aresendez88 wrote:
How do you explain that Zergs have currently taken more GSL championships than Terrans have? You could argue with me that it's not Zergs that are taking GSL trophies it's just Nestea, well that isn't a fair argument because there's been exactly 2 different players from each of their respective races taking GSL trophies.
Fruitdealer and Nestea, MVP and Polt. And one for Protoss, MC. Regardless, that's way too small a sample size to draw proper conclusions on, and there are other factors apart from balance here. Besides, the GSL wins have never really followed the logic of imbalance. Example: Fruitdealer and Nestea won GSLs one and two when Zerg was considered heavily underpowered. Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:42 aresendez88 wrote:If it was an imbalance as you claim, there'd be no way that any one BUT a Terran could take a title. Instead try and consider that it's simply a numbers game. The great Zergs are just as good as the great Terrans, but there's far more Terrans in the GSL to begin with so we end up with equally skewed looking upper brackets. Imbalance doesn't mean that there is no chance of anyone taking a title but Terran. It just means the chances are lower than for a Terran, excluding other factors. Next question: WHY are there so many more Terrans in the GSL to begin with? Is it purely cultural or a remnant from Terran being the race of 3/4 of the BW Bonjwas? Or is it because Protoss is harder to play at the highest skill levels? Show nested quote +Do you think it would be fair if almost half of the total GSL participants were Terrans but we ended up with lopsided semis like we had last season every season? It depends how well the Terrans play. It depends how well everyone plays. If Terran had a very low win ratio over a period of time it would need looking in to - currently just how Protoss is doing. Show nested quote +In truth the overall results are far less imbalanced than forum goers would have you believe. The Code S title distribution currently stands at 4 Zergs. 3 Terrans. 2 Protoss
Because a sample size of 9 over a period of several patches and multiple changes in the metagame are excellent to gauge how well a particular race is at the moment?
there is so much statistical/econometrical fail in this post i wont even bother to pick it apart
just stop trying to sound like you understand sample size, variance, or sample distributions.
that should go for everybody who isn't at least somewhat educated on the subject in this thread. seriously go spend 10 minutes reading and understanding sampling and random distribution, then come back and explain what you read, and then try and carve an argument around imbalance from that. until then, stfu.
User was warned for this post
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On August 30 2011 22:27 mburke05 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 22:16 SeaSwift wrote:On August 30 2011 21:42 aresendez88 wrote:
How do you explain that Zergs have currently taken more GSL championships than Terrans have? You could argue with me that it's not Zergs that are taking GSL trophies it's just Nestea, well that isn't a fair argument because there's been exactly 2 different players from each of their respective races taking GSL trophies.
Fruitdealer and Nestea, MVP and Polt. And one for Protoss, MC. Regardless, that's way too small a sample size to draw proper conclusions on, and there are other factors apart from balance here. Besides, the GSL wins have never really followed the logic of imbalance. Example: Fruitdealer and Nestea won GSLs one and two when Zerg was considered heavily underpowered. On August 30 2011 21:42 aresendez88 wrote:If it was an imbalance as you claim, there'd be no way that any one BUT a Terran could take a title. Instead try and consider that it's simply a numbers game. The great Zergs are just as good as the great Terrans, but there's far more Terrans in the GSL to begin with so we end up with equally skewed looking upper brackets. Imbalance doesn't mean that there is no chance of anyone taking a title but Terran. It just means the chances are lower than for a Terran, excluding other factors. Next question: WHY are there so many more Terrans in the GSL to begin with? Is it purely cultural or a remnant from Terran being the race of 3/4 of the BW Bonjwas? Or is it because Protoss is harder to play at the highest skill levels? Do you think it would be fair if almost half of the total GSL participants were Terrans but we ended up with lopsided semis like we had last season every season? It depends how well the Terrans play. It depends how well everyone plays. If Terran had a very low win ratio over a period of time it would need looking in to - currently just how Protoss is doing. In truth the overall results are far less imbalanced than forum goers would have you believe. The Code S title distribution currently stands at 4 Zergs. 3 Terrans. 2 Protoss
Because a sample size of 9 over a period of several patches and multiple changes in the metagame are excellent to gauge how well a particular race is at the moment? there is so much statistical/econometrical fail in this post i wont even bother to pick it apart just stop trying to sound like you understand sample size, variance, or sample distributions. that should go for everybody who isn't at least somewhat educated on the subject in this thread. seriously go spend 10 minutes reading and understanding sampling and random distribution, then come back and explain what you read, and then try and carve an argument around imbalance from that. until then, stfu.
It's great you shew us how knowledgable and educated you are in this area and pointed out where the proster is wrong. With your overall attitude you won't last here long.
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Anyone that is trying to justify warp prism drops are completely ignorant.The movement speed of a speed zealot is less than a worker and the dps of a stalker is pathetic and not worth the resources, and the 'surprise' factor lasts once at most. It can be useful if you time it in unison with other drops of attacks but comparatively a marine drops will do far more damage because a stim marine has far more mobility than a zealot.
There is no other unit that can harass effectively. Sentries can sometimes work, but if the enemy has something near buy its such a wasted investment, the gas cost is just too much. DT are expensive and only work once before detection is implemented. HT are good if the enemy is slow to react otherwise its a massive waste. Archon's are also too expensive and still too slow. Pheonix's you can't persist with because the enemy will just get a turret/spore. You get the point.
This is coming from a masters terran that switched from protoss because I realised the only way you can win is to all-in timing or turtle max out deathball, or of course rely on the fact that the opponent is terrible and makes mistakes.
That being said I don't think Protoss is imbalanced (except weak to mass marine with siege support early game because they cannot out dps it early on) they just have limited options (cannot counter-attacking, harass, high econ) which makes playing against a protoss much more predictable. However Protoss have the ability to somewhat dictate the unit composition of the game (i.e they have the most plausible options after the early game) which they can use to their advantage, but the game has come past the point to where we now know what counters what and, more importantly, how much of it and the timing, which is why protoss are weaker now at high level play.
The only reason I say this, and I applaud you for reading this far, is because this GSL there was ONE ZvP past the Ro16 (with the chance of one more if Huk and July win tomorrow) and NO mirror match ups that are not Terran, food for thought.
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On August 30 2011 22:03 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:59 Belisarius wrote:On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated. Zealot drops really don't work. They never do enough damage, and even if it "only costs minerals," it's still 600 minerals all up, 400 if you somehow save the prism. You need to do damage to justify that investment. And the reason storm drops are so rare is because the prism is both fragile and slow. If you run into even a single viking, you lose everything within seconds, no way out. Losing a pair of high-energy templar like that hurts more than you can imagine. Medivacs can drop their marines and shoo away the A2A. Even zerg can drop their blings or whatever and leg it back to base if they have to, not to mention the ovie's durability and surprising speed once it's upgraded. HT-prisms have the pentuple setback of being the most fragile, the most micro and setup-intensive, the most defenceless, arguably the most expensive, and carrying a cargo which is so slow that there's no way it will make it back to base on foot. That's, in short, why I don't do them very often. Pros pull them off from time to time, and it's always epic when they do, but they really are a lot harder and a lot riskier than the other race's drops. Maybe comparable to infestor drops from Z. With the prism speed upgrade, which I think is underused, and the buff to prism health, maybe some of that will be mitigated. Total investment to drop 4 Zealots into a base with a Warp Prism 600 minerals. Total Investment to drop 8 Marines into a base with a Medivac, 500 Minerals 100 gas. The mineral cost is comparable and there's the added gas cost. The perk of the Medivac drop is that medivacs can heal their occupants, the perk of a Warp Prism drop is that if the Warp Prism isn't destroyed immediately you can use it to reinforce that drop with whatever units you like from a Warp Gate. The risks involved in dropping are general risks. Medivacs are almost as easy to shoot down as Warp Prisms are. I admit that Warp Prisms are a little too fragile right now, but I really can't see why Protoss wouldn't utilize Zealot drops once that buff goes through.
you missing the point. protoss don't have a unit capable of doing enough damage in short period of time. examples: marine, hellion, banelings.
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On August 30 2011 22:03 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:59 Belisarius wrote:On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated. Zealot drops really don't work. They never do enough damage, and even if it "only costs minerals," it's still 600 minerals all up, 400 if you somehow save the prism. You need to do damage to justify that investment. And the reason storm drops are so rare is because the prism is both fragile and slow. If you run into even a single viking, you lose everything within seconds, no way out. Losing a pair of high-energy templar like that hurts more than you can imagine. Medivacs can drop their marines and shoo away the A2A. Even zerg can drop their blings or whatever and leg it back to base if they have to, not to mention the ovie's durability and surprising speed once it's upgraded. HT-prisms have the pentuple setback of being the most fragile, the most micro and setup-intensive, the most defenceless, arguably the most expensive, and carrying a cargo which is so slow that there's no way it will make it back to base on foot. That's, in short, why I don't do them very often. Pros pull them off from time to time, and it's always epic when they do, but they really are a lot harder and a lot riskier than the other race's drops. Maybe comparable to infestor drops from Z. With the prism speed upgrade, which I think is underused, and the buff to prism health, maybe some of that will be mitigated. Total investment to drop 4 Zealots into a base with a Warp Prism 600 minerals. Total Investment to drop 8 Marines into a base with a Medivac, 500 Minerals 100 gas. The mineral cost is comparable and there's the added gas cost. The perk of the Medivac drop is that medivacs can heal their occupants, the perk of a Warp Prism drop is that if the Warp Prism isn't destroyed immediately you can use it to reinforce that drop with whatever units you like from a Warp Gate. The risks involved in dropping are general risks. Medivacs are almost as easy to shoot down as Warp Prisms are. I admit that Warp Prisms are a little too fragile right now, but I really can't see why Protoss wouldn't utilize Zealot drops once that buff goes through.
Doesn't work that way.
Marines/Medivac go hand in hand. They are ranged inexpensive units with the highest DPS per mineral cost in the game (iirc)
Ever seen a Zealot drop? They are poor because it takes a long time to kill workers, against Zerg the Zealots automatically agro the Queen/Spine Crawler near the hatchery and waste their time running around. . You can't just group them all and shift queue a bunch of drones, then they will all try run after the same drone...
You generally need an overwhelming amount of them to get something to work, and still it remains inferior to Medivac/Marine drops
Against Terran it is obvious as PF's draw agro from Zealots, so you can't even suicide for a few kills
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Eh, Terran was built for stealthy moves and/or killing workers
Reapers, Banshees, Medivac Drops, Hellions, Ghosts
Keep that in mind when balance talking. Terran imba, but it seems they are meant to be good at this.
Top can totally take Polt, they played each other equally well the last time!
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On August 30 2011 22:51 bokeevboke wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 30 2011 22:03 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:59 Belisarius wrote:On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated. Zealot drops really don't work. They never do enough damage, and even if it "only costs minerals," it's still 600 minerals all up, 400 if you somehow save the prism. You need to do damage to justify that investment. And the reason storm drops are so rare is because the prism is both fragile and slow. If you run into even a single viking, you lose everything within seconds, no way out. Losing a pair of high-energy templar like that hurts more than you can imagine. Medivacs can drop their marines and shoo away the A2A. Even zerg can drop their blings or whatever and leg it back to base if they have to, not to mention the ovie's durability and surprising speed once it's upgraded. HT-prisms have the pentuple setback of being the most fragile, the most micro and setup-intensive, the most defenceless, arguably the most expensive, and carrying a cargo which is so slow that there's no way it will make it back to base on foot. That's, in short, why I don't do them very often. Pros pull them off from time to time, and it's always epic when they do, but they really are a lot harder and a lot riskier than the other race's drops. Maybe comparable to infestor drops from Z. With the prism speed upgrade, which I think is underused, and the buff to prism health, maybe some of that will be mitigated. Total investment to drop 4 Zealots into a base with a Warp Prism 600 minerals. Total Investment to drop 8 Marines into a base with a Medivac, 500 Minerals 100 gas. The mineral cost is comparable and there's the added gas cost. The perk of the Medivac drop is that medivacs can heal their occupants, the perk of a Warp Prism drop is that if the Warp Prism isn't destroyed immediately you can use it to reinforce that drop with whatever units you like from a Warp Gate. The risks involved in dropping are general risks. Medivacs are almost as easy to shoot down as Warp Prisms are. I admit that Warp Prisms are a little too fragile right now, but I really can't see why Protoss wouldn't utilize Zealot drops once that buff goes through. you missing the point. protoss don't have a unit capable of doing enough damage in short period of time. examples: marine, hellion, banelings.
Yes you do. Toss has the collosus, but i dont think toss would risk it though.
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On August 30 2011 22:51 bokeevboke wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 22:03 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:59 Belisarius wrote:On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated. Zealot drops really don't work. They never do enough damage, and even if it "only costs minerals," it's still 600 minerals all up, 400 if you somehow save the prism. You need to do damage to justify that investment. And the reason storm drops are so rare is because the prism is both fragile and slow. If you run into even a single viking, you lose everything within seconds, no way out. Losing a pair of high-energy templar like that hurts more than you can imagine. Medivacs can drop their marines and shoo away the A2A. Even zerg can drop their blings or whatever and leg it back to base if they have to, not to mention the ovie's durability and surprising speed once it's upgraded. HT-prisms have the pentuple setback of being the most fragile, the most micro and setup-intensive, the most defenceless, arguably the most expensive, and carrying a cargo which is so slow that there's no way it will make it back to base on foot. That's, in short, why I don't do them very often. Pros pull them off from time to time, and it's always epic when they do, but they really are a lot harder and a lot riskier than the other race's drops. Maybe comparable to infestor drops from Z. With the prism speed upgrade, which I think is underused, and the buff to prism health, maybe some of that will be mitigated. Total investment to drop 4 Zealots into a base with a Warp Prism 600 minerals. Total Investment to drop 8 Marines into a base with a Medivac, 500 Minerals 100 gas. The mineral cost is comparable and there's the added gas cost. The perk of the Medivac drop is that medivacs can heal their occupants, the perk of a Warp Prism drop is that if the Warp Prism isn't destroyed immediately you can use it to reinforce that drop with whatever units you like from a Warp Gate. The risks involved in dropping are general risks. Medivacs are almost as easy to shoot down as Warp Prisms are. I admit that Warp Prisms are a little too fragile right now, but I really can't see why Protoss wouldn't utilize Zealot drops once that buff goes through. you missing the point. protoss don't have a unit capable of doing enough damage in short period of time. examples: marine, hellion, banelings.
I'm pretty sure chargelots have the highest dps in the game.
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I really hope Huk and July win tonight, 4 terran in ro4 would make me so sad
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On August 30 2011 23:29 icarly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 22:51 bokeevboke wrote:On August 30 2011 22:03 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:59 Belisarius wrote:On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated. Zealot drops really don't work. They never do enough damage, and even if it "only costs minerals," it's still 600 minerals all up, 400 if you somehow save the prism. You need to do damage to justify that investment. And the reason storm drops are so rare is because the prism is both fragile and slow. If you run into even a single viking, you lose everything within seconds, no way out. Losing a pair of high-energy templar like that hurts more than you can imagine. Medivacs can drop their marines and shoo away the A2A. Even zerg can drop their blings or whatever and leg it back to base if they have to, not to mention the ovie's durability and surprising speed once it's upgraded. HT-prisms have the pentuple setback of being the most fragile, the most micro and setup-intensive, the most defenceless, arguably the most expensive, and carrying a cargo which is so slow that there's no way it will make it back to base on foot. That's, in short, why I don't do them very often. Pros pull them off from time to time, and it's always epic when they do, but they really are a lot harder and a lot riskier than the other race's drops. Maybe comparable to infestor drops from Z. With the prism speed upgrade, which I think is underused, and the buff to prism health, maybe some of that will be mitigated. Total investment to drop 4 Zealots into a base with a Warp Prism 600 minerals. Total Investment to drop 8 Marines into a base with a Medivac, 500 Minerals 100 gas. The mineral cost is comparable and there's the added gas cost. The perk of the Medivac drop is that medivacs can heal their occupants, the perk of a Warp Prism drop is that if the Warp Prism isn't destroyed immediately you can use it to reinforce that drop with whatever units you like from a Warp Gate. The risks involved in dropping are general risks. Medivacs are almost as easy to shoot down as Warp Prisms are. I admit that Warp Prisms are a little too fragile right now, but I really can't see why Protoss wouldn't utilize Zealot drops once that buff goes through. you missing the point. protoss don't have a unit capable of doing enough damage in short period of time. examples: marine, hellion, banelings. I'm pretty sure chargelots have the highest dps in the game.
The charge upgrade just buffs zealots movement speed, it doesnt change the dps...
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On August 30 2011 22:02 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:46 Zealot Lord wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 Beardedclam wrote:On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. It is much much much harder to defend drops than to shift que a couple drops into the bases. By doing this you get so far ahead and it looks like amazing play, which in some cases it is, but it may not be. I think Blizzard realizes this - thats why if I'm not mistaken you can't shift que drop unless you have vision in the new patch. Basically it requires more apm to do multiprong drops, which I think is a fantastic way to approach it without nerfing/tweaking any units. I think people still underestimate how much harder it is for protoss to defend vs drops than for other races to execute them. Zerg usually has overlords/creep "somewhere" (or ought to have it to say the least), so this gets alleviated to some extent - protoss is supposed to cover the whole map with observers, still this is really, REALLY gas-intensive. This means, that you have to be prepared to defend vs drops basicly always, all the time. You can never have your attention slip, otherwise it's game over. The dropper, on the other hand, only has to focus WHEN he drops. The rest of the time he can safely macro up and be 100% focussed once the dropping action starts. I do NOT want to claim that TOP didn't deserve his win, Genius was the worse player overall, I have no problem accepting that. But people give multipronged drops way too much credit. TOP won because of flawless macro and some really screwed up decisions by Genius (attacking into choke point and PF? wtf?). The drops were executed well, but nothing overly amazing.
hard for toss to defend against drops? The instant T drops toss warps in a round of units and looks away because they know it will get cleaned up. Killing 4 zealots requires so much more micro
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THANK YOU POLT! I love Polt, for some weird reason people don't like to vote for the guy or always underrate him and he's usually giving me free liquibet wins. =D
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why talking mineral lines guys 
as a terran player
im quite fucked up if 3 out of 5 rax i have lost its tech lab / reactor
and those stuff has quite low HP + stalker deal bonus damage
that should cut the production for some time
or mass colosi and snipe the reactor at starport
same as terran sniping robo bay or temp archive, no
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On August 30 2011 23:29 icarly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 22:51 bokeevboke wrote:On August 30 2011 22:03 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:59 Belisarius wrote:On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated. Zealot drops really don't work. They never do enough damage, and even if it "only costs minerals," it's still 600 minerals all up, 400 if you somehow save the prism. You need to do damage to justify that investment. And the reason storm drops are so rare is because the prism is both fragile and slow. If you run into even a single viking, you lose everything within seconds, no way out. Losing a pair of high-energy templar like that hurts more than you can imagine. Medivacs can drop their marines and shoo away the A2A. Even zerg can drop their blings or whatever and leg it back to base if they have to, not to mention the ovie's durability and surprising speed once it's upgraded. HT-prisms have the pentuple setback of being the most fragile, the most micro and setup-intensive, the most defenceless, arguably the most expensive, and carrying a cargo which is so slow that there's no way it will make it back to base on foot. That's, in short, why I don't do them very often. Pros pull them off from time to time, and it's always epic when they do, but they really are a lot harder and a lot riskier than the other race's drops. Maybe comparable to infestor drops from Z. With the prism speed upgrade, which I think is underused, and the buff to prism health, maybe some of that will be mitigated. Total investment to drop 4 Zealots into a base with a Warp Prism 600 minerals. Total Investment to drop 8 Marines into a base with a Medivac, 500 Minerals 100 gas. The mineral cost is comparable and there's the added gas cost. The perk of the Medivac drop is that medivacs can heal their occupants, the perk of a Warp Prism drop is that if the Warp Prism isn't destroyed immediately you can use it to reinforce that drop with whatever units you like from a Warp Gate. The risks involved in dropping are general risks. Medivacs are almost as easy to shoot down as Warp Prisms are. I admit that Warp Prisms are a little too fragile right now, but I really can't see why Protoss wouldn't utilize Zealot drops once that buff goes through. you missing the point. protoss don't have a unit capable of doing enough damage in short period of time. examples: marine, hellion, banelings. I'm pretty sure chargelots have the highest dps in the game.
Well, you are wrong.
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On August 30 2011 23:34 icarly wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 22:02 sleepingdog wrote:On August 30 2011 21:46 Zealot Lord wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 Beardedclam wrote:On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. It is much much much harder to defend drops than to shift que a couple drops into the bases. By doing this you get so far ahead and it looks like amazing play, which in some cases it is, but it may not be. I think Blizzard realizes this - thats why if I'm not mistaken you can't shift que drop unless you have vision in the new patch. Basically it requires more apm to do multiprong drops, which I think is a fantastic way to approach it without nerfing/tweaking any units. I think people still underestimate how much harder it is for protoss to defend vs drops than for other races to execute them. Zerg usually has overlords/creep "somewhere" (or ought to have it to say the least), so this gets alleviated to some extent - protoss is supposed to cover the whole map with observers, still this is really, REALLY gas-intensive. This means, that you have to be prepared to defend vs drops basicly always, all the time. You can never have your attention slip, otherwise it's game over. The dropper, on the other hand, only has to focus WHEN he drops. The rest of the time he can safely macro up and be 100% focussed once the dropping action starts. I do NOT want to claim that TOP didn't deserve his win, Genius was the worse player overall, I have no problem accepting that. But people give multipronged drops way too much credit. TOP won because of flawless macro and some really screwed up decisions by Genius (attacking into choke point and PF? wtf?). The drops were executed well, but nothing overly amazing. hard for toss to defend against drops? The instant T drops toss warps in a round of units and looks away because they know it will get cleaned up. Killing 4 zealots requires so much more micro
First of all, you only have enough warp-in-capabilities in lategame...or if your macro sucks. This is actually a problem I've seen regularly in games of progamers, and when I'm on top of my game also happens to me as well. Protoss players only have the possiblitiy to warp in a bunch of units when a drop flies in...if they have MISSED warpcycles before! It is extremely important that people understand this. The better a protoss player is, the fewer "idle" warpgates he will have at any given point in time to react to a drop. Overall, you can't rationally suggest to stack up ressources and let your macro slip just to be able to respond to drops should they occur.
Secondly, marine/marauder/medivac have an insanely good synergy in small numbers vs protoss. This means, to clean up a drop - chasing it away if the T pays any attention - you have to bring MORE supply/ressources worth of units. This shouldn't be seen as a mere imba-QQ, but it is a straight fact. You can't defend drops with an equal amount of ressources invested in zealots/stalkers because protoss units work better in larger numbers vs bio. You can't reasonably pull a single colossus, without gateway support it will just get sniped by marauders. If they can hit them, marauders are actually quite good vs colossi. Furthermore, you obviously can't react with sentries, which is the go-to response to small numbers of MM in the early game. HTs only work if the T is bad enough to drop with medivacs that have full energy. Using storm on a 4 marauder drop is pretty stupid, as the marauders can be microed out of the storm easily and then the 150 gas HT is toast.
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On August 30 2011 23:38 Vertical wrote:why talking mineral lines guys as a terran player im quite fucked up if 3 out of 5 rax i have lost its tech lab / reactor and those stuff has quite low HP + stalker deal bonus damage that should cut the production for some time or mass colosi and snipe the reactor at starport same as terran sniping robo bay or temp archive, no
I think thats what Blizz has in mind with the new buff to immortals and WPs.
Boost out 2 immos and a prism and go kill some add ons/depots in PvT, or go deny a 3rd in PvZ.
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On August 30 2011 22:11 IVN wrote:
And Polt won, because of a lucky road to the finals.
dude you're right! he only defeated Losira, Huk, Alicia, Maka, Top and MMA! No good players in there! Alicia only beat Byun, MC, Nestea, Marineking in the past! MMA only beat Nestea, Ryung, Marineking in the past! They're both easy peasy! Top is a lame player too! Losira is soo bad! Lucky, lucky brackets for Polt!
Nestea's run in s4 beating terrans like Ensnare, and zvzing to the win is much more impressive! He really showed what he's worth over there!
Seriously Polt only wins because of his luck! I mean he could've had matches vs ensnare or hongun to prove his worth and he'd have walked home in shame for sure then!
seriously /bitchslap to everybody who is still talking shit about Polt.
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On August 30 2011 23:45 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 23:38 Vertical wrote:why talking mineral lines guys as a terran player im quite fucked up if 3 out of 5 rax i have lost its tech lab / reactor and those stuff has quite low HP + stalker deal bonus damage that should cut the production for some time or mass colosi and snipe the reactor at starport same as terran sniping robo bay or temp archive, no I think thats what Blizz has in mind with the new buff to immortals and WPs. Boost out 2 immos and a prism and go kill some add ons/depots in PvT, or go deny a 3rd in PvZ.
well 8 stimmed marines beat the crap out of that in the past and will also do it in the future for half the cost and also having the potential to do like 10x as much damage when dropped in the right place.
the buffs are good but don't get carried away
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EPT
