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On August 30 2011 21:25 Beardedclam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. It is much much much harder to defend drops than to shift que a couple drops into the bases. By doing this you get so far ahead and it looks like amazing play, which in some cases it is, but it may not be.
You can say the same thing about having a bunch of proxy pylons all over the map with DTs constantly harassing expansions.
That argument doesn't have a lot of merit to it at all, considering that the same thing can be said about virtually ANY aggressive playstyle.
Mutalisk Harassment, Void Ray Harassment, Phoenix Harassment against Zerg, DTs, Medivac Drops, Cloak Banshees, Reapers, Hellions, Zealot drops, Baneling drops, Zergling runbys.
The list goes on. In general aggression is very highly rewarded in SC2 provided the person doing it executes it properly. Also, harassment has the nifty bonus of unnerving your opponent. You ever notice that the guy being harassed usually ends up making more mistakes than the person doing the harassment.
It's natural that if you feel constantly threatened you have a tendency to not think with a clear head. This is one of the main reasons Terrans favor drop play so much even if the drops themselves don't do a ton of damage. It isn't like Terrans are the only race that can be aggressive if they want to be.
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On August 30 2011 21:21 Asha` wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:14 Mentalizor wrote:On August 30 2011 21:10 nanaoei wrote:On August 30 2011 21:06 CutthroatCollapse wrote:
what can the protoss do? he cant attack the 2 planetary bases with warpprism drops. planetary so imba yeah he can, haha, dts stalkers outrange by 1 and in general planetary makes your cc stationary jsut as a nexus is, except a terran can't instantly transport units to defend it it was bad play in general, i haven't been so annoyed with someone's play in such a long time TOP was just lolling around with the drops.... I need a copy of your game with range 7 stalkers :o (they've got 6... PF has 6 with the option of upgrading to 7) I presume he's talking about parking stalkers behind a mineral line so you can sit out of range of the PF but fire away at the scv's
i'm talking map specific on the 3'oclock pos., but yeah--- key phrase, 'in general'
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On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they?
Warp prism so fragile, we will probably see more of this type of thing when/if they get a buff.
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Interestingly enough Optimus has a pretty good chance of taking the whole tournament by playing TvT only.
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On August 30 2011 21:29 Bacillus wrote:
Interestingly enough Optimus has a pretty good chance of taking the whole tournament by playing TvT only.
Considering we had like 17 out of 32? (Correct me if I'm wrong) Terrans in the GSL to begin with I think we had to expect something like that could happen.
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On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain.
A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self
Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms.
If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well.
I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it.
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On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing.
OR an advantage due to race makes those players appear way better than they really are.
Statistically speaking, it is WAAAAAY more likely that the race is imbalanced, than that all the TOP10, 15, 20 or what ever players play terran. Occam's razor, my friend.
In other words, reduce the damage of marines by 30% and reduce medivac hp to 75 (just for the LULz/not as a serious balance change ---> experiment), and observe the T win ratios plummet. I bet none of the terran players would look brilliant, or like they are outplaying their opponents. They would all suffer brutal losses, P and Z fanboys would all be saying just how baaaaaaaaad they are, and how they need to l2p, and you would be saying that the game is imba, and it would be.
Think about this, be4 you post nonsense next time.
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On August 30 2011 21:28 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:25 Beardedclam wrote:On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. It is much much much harder to defend drops than to shift que a couple drops into the bases. By doing this you get so far ahead and it looks like amazing play, which in some cases it is, but it may not be. You can say the same thing about having a bunch of proxy pylons all over the map with DTs constantly harassing expansions. That argument doesn't have a lot of merit to it at all, considering that the same thing can be said about virtually ANY aggressive playstyle. Mutalisk Harassment, Void Ray Harassment, Phoenix Harassment against Zerg, DTs, Medivac Drops, Cloak Banshees, Reapers, Hellions, Zealot drops, Baneling drops, Zergling runbys. The list goes on. In general aggression is very highly rewarded in SC2 provided the person doing it executes it properly. Also, harassment has the nifty bonus of unnerving your opponent. You ever notice that the guy being harassed usually ends up making more mistakes than the person doing the harassment. It's natural that if you feel constantly threatened you have a tendency to not think with a clear head. This is one of the main reasons Terrans favor drop play so much even if the drops themselves don't do a ton of damage. It isn't like Terrans are the only race that can be aggressive if they want to be.
no terran is the only race that can be agressiv in current metagame confer gsl
and yes defending drop is extremly difficult you need to be in the mind of your opponent to know how many drop will be coming you need to be very carefull of the amount of units you detache to defend
and play one move ahead of your opponent see mc vs puma on tal darim where mc just show the world how much better skill wise than current sc2 scene
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On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it.
Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all.
Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots.
A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated.
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On August 30 2011 21:24 Gantritor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:16 Beardedclam wrote:On August 30 2011 21:14 Blackk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 Mereel wrote:
i dont know man.....if terrans start using planetary to defend positions on the map something is wrong with that feature.
i dont think its meant to be used like that. Well it's not like protoss can't do something similar with photon cannons We can't repair cannons though. Yeah, but cannons costs almost the same as bunkers, and they don't need supply to fire.
Or, you know, marines.
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On August 30 2011 21:23 Heimatloser wrote:
only an optimus win can save gsl now.while mvp and july are beloved by foreigner theydont seem to have a huge fanbase in korea...
yo.... you did not just say july gets no love in his hometown & country
http://cafe.daum.net/JulyZerg
his fansite has 28k on this fancafe alone
http://cafe.daum.net/flashlyh
flash has barely 10k
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On August 30 2011 21:35 CarlaBruni wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:28 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 Beardedclam wrote:On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. It is much much much harder to defend drops than to shift que a couple drops into the bases. By doing this you get so far ahead and it looks like amazing play, which in some cases it is, but it may not be. You can say the same thing about having a bunch of proxy pylons all over the map with DTs constantly harassing expansions. That argument doesn't have a lot of merit to it at all, considering that the same thing can be said about virtually ANY aggressive playstyle. Mutalisk Harassment, Void Ray Harassment, Phoenix Harassment against Zerg, DTs, Medivac Drops, Cloak Banshees, Reapers, Hellions, Zealot drops, Baneling drops, Zergling runbys. The list goes on. In general aggression is very highly rewarded in SC2 provided the person doing it executes it properly. Also, harassment has the nifty bonus of unnerving your opponent. You ever notice that the guy being harassed usually ends up making more mistakes than the person doing the harassment. It's natural that if you feel constantly threatened you have a tendency to not think with a clear head. This is one of the main reasons Terrans favor drop play so much even if the drops themselves don't do a ton of damage. It isn't like Terrans are the only race that can be aggressive if they want to be. no terran is the only race that can be agressiv in current metagame confer gsl and yes defending drop is extremly difficult you need to be in the mind of your opponent to know how many drop will be coming you need to be very carefull of the amount of units you detache to defend and play one move ahead of your opponent see mc vs puma on tal darim where mc just show the world how much better skill wise than current sc2 scene
Regarding only terran can be aggressive, people need to watch more July. He did pretty well against Hongun with an aggressive style because too many people expect what you have said, zergs and protoss to play more passive than terran
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On August 30 2011 21:35 CarlaBruni wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:28 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 Beardedclam wrote:On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. It is much much much harder to defend drops than to shift que a couple drops into the bases. By doing this you get so far ahead and it looks like amazing play, which in some cases it is, but it may not be. You can say the same thing about having a bunch of proxy pylons all over the map with DTs constantly harassing expansions. That argument doesn't have a lot of merit to it at all, considering that the same thing can be said about virtually ANY aggressive playstyle. Mutalisk Harassment, Void Ray Harassment, Phoenix Harassment against Zerg, DTs, Medivac Drops, Cloak Banshees, Reapers, Hellions, Zealot drops, Baneling drops, Zergling runbys. The list goes on. In general aggression is very highly rewarded in SC2 provided the person doing it executes it properly. Also, harassment has the nifty bonus of unnerving your opponent. You ever notice that the guy being harassed usually ends up making more mistakes than the person doing the harassment. It's natural that if you feel constantly threatened you have a tendency to not think with a clear head. This is one of the main reasons Terrans favor drop play so much even if the drops themselves don't do a ton of damage. It isn't like Terrans are the only race that can be aggressive if they want to be. no terran is the only race that can be agressiv in current metagame confer gsl
The thing is with Terran drops you can just shift que them and sit them on the side of the base and take out workers really fast and then pick them up when their army comes. Mutalisk, Pheonix and Banshees require lots of micro and focus. And they also are much more of an investment. Zealot drops and DT drops are good but if there is a PF you can't use them. Also they normally get destroyed because they have to go into the mineral line so you basically have to do damage for them to work.
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On August 30 2011 21:35 IVN wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. OR an advantage due to race makes those players appear way better than they really are. Statistically speaking, it is WAAAAAY more likely that the race is imbalanced, than that all the TOP10, 15, 20 or what ever players play terran. Occam's razor, my friend. In other words, reduce the damage of marines by 30% and reduce medivac hp to 75 (just for the LULz/not as a serious balance change ---> experiment), and observe the T win ratios plummet. I bet none of the terran players would look brilliant, or like they are outplaying their opponents. They would all suffer brutal losses, P and Z fanboys would all be saying just how baaaaaaaaad they are, and how they need to l2p, and you would be saying that the game is imba, and it would be. Think about this, be4 you post nonsense next time.
All right let's assume for a moment that the race itself is imbalanced and there isn't just an insane amount of good Terran players in the GSL.
How do you explain that Zergs have currently taken more GSL championships than Terrans have? You could argue with me that it's not Zergs that are taking GSL trophies it's just Nestea, well that isn't a fair argument because there's been exactly 2 different players from each of their respective races taking GSL trophies.
Fruitdealer and Nestea, MVP and Polt.
If it was an imbalance as you claim, there'd be no way that any one BUT a Terran could take a title. Instead try and consider that it's simply a numbers game. The great Zergs are just as good as the great Terrans, but there's far more Terrans in the GSL to begin with so we end up with equally skewed looking upper brackets.
Do you think it would be fair if almost half of the total GSL participants were Terrans but we ended up with lopsided semis like we had last season every season?
In truth the overall results are far less imbalanced than forum goers would have you believe. The Code S title distribution currently stands at 4 Zergs. 3 Terrans. 2 Protoss
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On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated.
Not even whit charge can zealots kill workers quickly enough. So no, zealot drops will never be as effective, as marine or baneling drops.
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On August 30 2011 21:25 Beardedclam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. It is much much much harder to defend drops than to shift que a couple drops into the bases. By doing this you get so far ahead and it looks like amazing play, which in some cases it is, but it may not be.
I think Blizzard realizes this - thats why if I'm not mistaken you can't shift que drop unless you have vision in the new patch. Basically it requires more apm to do multiprong drops, which I think is a fantastic way to approach it without nerfing/tweaking any units.
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On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated.
also, every strong protoss has the same hardcounter. voidrays? viking! colossus? viking! carrier? viking! mothership? viking! and last but not least: warp-prism? viking!
only difference is, that warp-prisms die to vikings even faster. all you need to stop warp-prism harass is a viking behind the mineral line. and ever since you cant warp in temps anymore you dont lose just the warp-prism but also the templars. and that gets expensive pretty quick
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On August 30 2011 21:41 Beardedclam wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:35 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:28 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 Beardedclam wrote:On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. It is much much much harder to defend drops than to shift que a couple drops into the bases. By doing this you get so far ahead and it looks like amazing play, which in some cases it is, but it may not be. You can say the same thing about having a bunch of proxy pylons all over the map with DTs constantly harassing expansions. That argument doesn't have a lot of merit to it at all, considering that the same thing can be said about virtually ANY aggressive playstyle. Mutalisk Harassment, Void Ray Harassment, Phoenix Harassment against Zerg, DTs, Medivac Drops, Cloak Banshees, Reapers, Hellions, Zealot drops, Baneling drops, Zergling runbys. The list goes on. In general aggression is very highly rewarded in SC2 provided the person doing it executes it properly. Also, harassment has the nifty bonus of unnerving your opponent. You ever notice that the guy being harassed usually ends up making more mistakes than the person doing the harassment. It's natural that if you feel constantly threatened you have a tendency to not think with a clear head. This is one of the main reasons Terrans favor drop play so much even if the drops themselves don't do a ton of damage. It isn't like Terrans are the only race that can be aggressive if they want to be. no terran is the only race that can be agressiv in current metagame confer gsl The thing is with Terran drops you can just shift que them and sit them on the side of the base and take out workers really fast and then pick them up when their army comes. Mutalisk, Pheonix and Banshees require lots of micro and focus. And they also are much more of an investment. Zealot drops and DT drops are good but if there is a PF you can't use them. Also they normally get destroyed because they have to go into the mineral line so you basically have to do damage for them to work.
Top went beyond basic dropship micro. He utilized terrain really well on Dual Sight, hopping up and down cliffs near the main to do way more damage than a simple drop and run would. He picked flight paths that got his medivacs to safety asap, in range of the archons at Genius' 3rd, but covered by fog because of another cliff. His timing went beyond just shift queue and let the attack happen whenever the ship gets there, he was pinning Genius or doing economic damage while a battle happened elsewhere. He didn't fly his dropships into stalkers when Genius had them on defense, so he was at least watching the minimap, probably even had the dropships on screen near dropoff time.
Anyway, I think you're making it sound like all you need to do to play like Top did is a few shift-queue drops and IMO he's way beyond that.
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On August 30 2011 21:47 Heimatloser wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated. also, every strong protoss has the same hardcounter. voidrays? viking! colossus? viking! carrier? viking! mothership? viking! and last but not least: warp-prism? viking! only difference is, that warp-prisms die to vikings even faster. all you need to stop warp-prism harass is a viking behind the mineral line. and ever since you cant warp in temps anymore you dont lose just the warp-prism but also the templars. and that gets expensive pretty quick
vikings don't hard counter void rays lol
also, phoenixs own vikings
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On August 30 2011 21:42 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:35 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. OR an advantage due to race makes those players appear way better than they really are. Statistically speaking, it is WAAAAAY more likely that the race is imbalanced, than that all the TOP10, 15, 20 or what ever players play terran. Occam's razor, my friend. In other words, reduce the damage of marines by 30% and reduce medivac hp to 75 (just for the LULz/not as a serious balance change ---> experiment), and observe the T win ratios plummet. I bet none of the terran players would look brilliant, or like they are outplaying their opponents. They would all suffer brutal losses, P and Z fanboys would all be saying just how baaaaaaaaad they are, and how they need to l2p, and you would be saying that the game is imba, and it would be. Think about this, be4 you post nonsense next time. All right let's assume for a moment that the race itself is imbalanced and there isn't just an insane amount of good Terran players in the GSL. How do you explain that Zergs have currently taken more GSL championships than Terrans have? You could argue with me that it's not Zergs that are taking GSL trophies it's just Nestea, well that isn't a fair argument because there's been exactly 2 different players from each of their respective races taking GSL trophies. Fruitdealer and Nestea, MVP and Polt. If it was an imbalance as you claim, there'd be no way that any one BUT a Terran could take a title. Instead try and consider that it's simply a numbers game. The great Zergs are just as good as the great Terrans, but there's far more Terrans in the GSL to begin with so we end up with equally skewed looking upper brackets. Do you think it would be fair if almost half of the total GSL participants were Terrans but we ended up with lopsided semis like we had last season every season? In truth the overall results are far less imbalanced than forum goers would have you believe. The Code S title distribution currently stands at 4 Zergs. 3 Terrans. 2 Protoss
To be fair we went through 2-3 signficant balance patches by now and the changing map pool is an influencing factor as well.
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EPT
