|
On August 30 2011 21:49 nanoscorp wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:41 Beardedclam wrote:On August 30 2011 21:35 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:28 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 Beardedclam wrote:On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. It is much much much harder to defend drops than to shift que a couple drops into the bases. By doing this you get so far ahead and it looks like amazing play, which in some cases it is, but it may not be. You can say the same thing about having a bunch of proxy pylons all over the map with DTs constantly harassing expansions. That argument doesn't have a lot of merit to it at all, considering that the same thing can be said about virtually ANY aggressive playstyle. Mutalisk Harassment, Void Ray Harassment, Phoenix Harassment against Zerg, DTs, Medivac Drops, Cloak Banshees, Reapers, Hellions, Zealot drops, Baneling drops, Zergling runbys. The list goes on. In general aggression is very highly rewarded in SC2 provided the person doing it executes it properly. Also, harassment has the nifty bonus of unnerving your opponent. You ever notice that the guy being harassed usually ends up making more mistakes than the person doing the harassment. It's natural that if you feel constantly threatened you have a tendency to not think with a clear head. This is one of the main reasons Terrans favor drop play so much even if the drops themselves don't do a ton of damage. It isn't like Terrans are the only race that can be aggressive if they want to be. no terran is the only race that can be agressiv in current metagame confer gsl The thing is with Terran drops you can just shift que them and sit them on the side of the base and take out workers really fast and then pick them up when their army comes. Mutalisk, Pheonix and Banshees require lots of micro and focus. And they also are much more of an investment. Zealot drops and DT drops are good but if there is a PF you can't use them. Also they normally get destroyed because they have to go into the mineral line so you basically have to do damage for them to work. Top went beyond basic dropship micro. He utilized terrain really well on Dual Sight, hopping up and down cliffs near the main to do way more damage than a simple drop and run would. He picked flight paths that got his medivacs to safety asap, in range of the archons at Genius' 3rd, but covered by fog because of another cliff. His timing went beyond just shift queue and let the attack happen whenever the ship gets there, he was pinning Genius or doing economic damage while a battle happened elsewhere. He didn't fly his dropships into stalkers when Genius had them on defense, so he was at least watching the minimap, probably even had the dropships on screen near dropoff time. Anyway, I think you're making it sound like all you need to do to play like Top did is a few shift-queue drops and IMO he's way beyond that.
Yup his drop play on dual sight was pretty impressive I must admit =)
|
Yeah, but vikings have way more range and can just stay camped over the marines.
|
On August 30 2011 21:51 mutantmagnet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:42 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:35 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. OR an advantage due to race makes those players appear way better than they really are. Statistically speaking, it is WAAAAAY more likely that the race is imbalanced, than that all the TOP10, 15, 20 or what ever players play terran. Occam's razor, my friend. In other words, reduce the damage of marines by 30% and reduce medivac hp to 75 (just for the LULz/not as a serious balance change ---> experiment), and observe the T win ratios plummet. I bet none of the terran players would look brilliant, or like they are outplaying their opponents. They would all suffer brutal losses, P and Z fanboys would all be saying just how baaaaaaaaad they are, and how they need to l2p, and you would be saying that the game is imba, and it would be. Think about this, be4 you post nonsense next time. All right let's assume for a moment that the race itself is imbalanced and there isn't just an insane amount of good Terran players in the GSL. How do you explain that Zergs have currently taken more GSL championships than Terrans have? You could argue with me that it's not Zergs that are taking GSL trophies it's just Nestea, well that isn't a fair argument because there's been exactly 2 different players from each of their respective races taking GSL trophies. Fruitdealer and Nestea, MVP and Polt. If it was an imbalance as you claim, there'd be no way that any one BUT a Terran could take a title. Instead try and consider that it's simply a numbers game. The great Zergs are just as good as the great Terrans, but there's far more Terrans in the GSL to begin with so we end up with equally skewed looking upper brackets. Do you think it would be fair if almost half of the total GSL participants were Terrans but we ended up with lopsided semis like we had last season every season? In truth the overall results are far less imbalanced than forum goers would have you believe. The Code S title distribution currently stands at 4 Zergs. 3 Terrans. 2 Protoss To be fair we went through 2-3 signficant balance patches by now and the changing map pool is an influencing factor as well.
Which further supports my point when you think about it.
Fruitdealer won Season 1, and when you think about it Season 1 was when the overall balance of the game as well as the pool of maps favored Terrans the most. We still had Steppes of War back then and yet Fruitdealer managed to win that season.
Need I remind you that Fruitdealer is no longer even in Code A, much less Code S now.
Few Terran nerfs later and a much better map pool and we have still have people saying things are imbalanced when the overall results don't even support those claims at all.
|
On August 30 2011 21:51 mutantmagnet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:42 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:35 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. OR an advantage due to race makes those players appear way better than they really are. Statistically speaking, it is WAAAAAY more likely that the race is imbalanced, than that all the TOP10, 15, 20 or what ever players play terran. Occam's razor, my friend. In other words, reduce the damage of marines by 30% and reduce medivac hp to 75 (just for the LULz/not as a serious balance change ---> experiment), and observe the T win ratios plummet. I bet none of the terran players would look brilliant, or like they are outplaying their opponents. They would all suffer brutal losses, P and Z fanboys would all be saying just how baaaaaaaaad they are, and how they need to l2p, and you would be saying that the game is imba, and it would be. Think about this, be4 you post nonsense next time. All right let's assume for a moment that the race itself is imbalanced and there isn't just an insane amount of good Terran players in the GSL. How do you explain that Zergs have currently taken more GSL championships than Terrans have? You could argue with me that it's not Zergs that are taking GSL trophies it's just Nestea, well that isn't a fair argument because there's been exactly 2 different players from each of their respective races taking GSL trophies. Fruitdealer and Nestea, MVP and Polt. If it was an imbalance as you claim, there'd be no way that any one BUT a Terran could take a title. Instead try and consider that it's simply a numbers game. The great Zergs are just as good as the great Terrans, but there's far more Terrans in the GSL to begin with so we end up with equally skewed looking upper brackets. Do you think it would be fair if almost half of the total GSL participants were Terrans but we ended up with lopsided semis like we had last season every season? In truth the overall results are far less imbalanced than forum goers would have you believe. The Code S title distribution currently stands at 4 Zergs. 3 Terrans. 2 Protoss To be fair we went through 2-3 signficant balance patches by now and the changing map pool is an influencing factor as well.
right, but nearly all the balance patches were terran nerfs. in fact, you could argue that terran is weaker now than their championship history would indicate due to nerfs
|
On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated.
Zealot drops really don't work. They never do enough damage, and even if it "only costs minerals," it's still 600 minerals all up, 400 if you somehow save the prism. You need to do damage to justify that investment.
And the reason storm drops are so rare is because the prism is both fragile and slow. If you run into even a single viking, you lose everything within seconds, no way out. Losing a pair of high-energy templar like that hurts more than you can imagine.
Medivacs can drop their marines and shoo away the A2A. Even zerg can drop their blings or whatever and leg it back to base if they have to, not to mention the ovie's durability and surprising speed once it's upgraded. HT-prisms have the pentuple setback of being the most fragile, the most micro and setup-intensive, the most defenceless, arguably the most expensive, and of carrying a cargo which is so slow that there's no way it will make home on foot.
That's, in short, why I don't do them very often. Pros pull them off from time to time, and it's always epic when they do, but they really are a lot harder and a lot riskier than the other races' standard harass drops. Maybe comparable to infestor drops from Z.
With the prism speed upgrade, which I think is underused, and the buff to prism health, maybe some of that will be mitigated.
Also this:
On August 30 2011 21:47 Heimatloser wrote:
also, every strong protoss has the same hardcounter. voidrays? viking! colossus? viking! carrier? viking! mothership? viking! and last but not least: warp-prism? viking!
It doesn't even need a dedicated counter. Unless the toss has been 100% twilight-templar before the drop, terran will already have vikings.
|
On August 30 2011 21:46 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:25 Beardedclam wrote:On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. It is much much much harder to defend drops than to shift que a couple drops into the bases. By doing this you get so far ahead and it looks like amazing play, which in some cases it is, but it may not be. I think Blizzard realizes this - thats why if I'm not mistaken you can't shift que drop unless you have vision in the new patch. Basically it requires more apm to do multiprong drops, which I think is a fantastic way to approach it without nerfing/tweaking any units.
I think people still underestimate how much harder it is for protoss to defend vs drops than for other races to execute them. Zerg usually has overlords/creep "somewhere" (or ought to have it to say the least), so this gets alleviated to some extent - protoss is supposed to cover the whole map with observers, still this is really, REALLY gas-intensive.
This means, that you have to be prepared to defend vs drops basicly always, all the time. You can never have your attention slip, otherwise it's game over. The dropper, on the other hand, only has to focus WHEN he drops. The rest of the time he can safely macro up and be 100% focussed once the dropping action starts.
I do NOT want to claim that TOP didn't deserve his win, Genius was the worse player overall, I have no problem accepting that. But people give multipronged drops way too much credit. TOP won because of flawless macro and some really screwed up decisions by Genius (attacking into choke point and PF? wtf?). The drops were executed well, but nothing overly amazing.
|
On August 30 2011 21:59 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated. Zealot drops really don't work. They never do enough damage, and even if it "only costs minerals," it's still 600 minerals all up, 400 if you somehow save the prism. You need to do damage to justify that investment. And the reason storm drops are so rare is because the prism is both fragile and slow. If you run into even a single viking, you lose everything within seconds, no way out. Losing a pair of high-energy templar like that hurts more than you can imagine. Medivacs can drop their marines and shoo away the A2A. Even zerg can drop their blings or whatever and leg it back to base if they have to, not to mention the ovie's durability and surprising speed once it's upgraded. HT-prisms have the pentuple setback of being the most fragile, the most micro and setup-intensive, the most defenceless, arguably the most expensive, and carrying a cargo which is so slow that there's no way it will make it back to base on foot. That's, in short, why I don't do them very often. Pros pull them off from time to time, and it's always epic when they do, but they really are a lot harder and a lot riskier than the other race's drops. Maybe comparable to infestor drops from Z. With the prism speed upgrade, which I think is underused, and the buff to prism health, maybe some of that will be mitigated.
Total investment to drop 4 Zealots into a base with a Warp Prism 600 minerals.
Total Investment to drop 8 Marines into a base with a Medivac, 500 Minerals 100 gas.
The mineral cost is comparable and there's the added gas cost.
The perk of the Medivac drop is that medivacs can heal their occupants, the perk of a Warp Prism drop is that if the Warp Prism isn't destroyed immediately you can use it to reinforce that drop with whatever units you like from a Warp Gate.
The risks involved in dropping are general risks. Medivacs are almost as easy to shoot down as Warp Prisms are.
I admit that Warp Prisms are a little too fragile right now, but I really can't see why Protoss wouldn't utilize Zealot drops once that buff goes through.
|
No!!! I wanted Polt/Genius in the Ro8 and Genius to beat Polt!!!!!!!
|
On August 30 2011 22:03 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:59 Belisarius wrote:On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated. Zealot drops really don't work. They never do enough damage, and even if it "only costs minerals," it's still 600 minerals all up, 400 if you somehow save the prism. You need to do damage to justify that investment. And the reason storm drops are so rare is because the prism is both fragile and slow. If you run into even a single viking, you lose everything within seconds, no way out. Losing a pair of high-energy templar like that hurts more than you can imagine. Medivacs can drop their marines and shoo away the A2A. Even zerg can drop their blings or whatever and leg it back to base if they have to, not to mention the ovie's durability and surprising speed once it's upgraded. HT-prisms have the pentuple setback of being the most fragile, the most micro and setup-intensive, the most defenceless, arguably the most expensive, and carrying a cargo which is so slow that there's no way it will make it back to base on foot. That's, in short, why I don't do them very often. Pros pull them off from time to time, and it's always epic when they do, but they really are a lot harder and a lot riskier than the other race's drops. Maybe comparable to infestor drops from Z. With the prism speed upgrade, which I think is underused, and the buff to prism health, maybe some of that will be mitigated. Total investment to drop 4 Zealots into a base with a Warp Prism 600 minerals. Total Investment to drop 8 Marines into a base with a Medivac, 500 Minerals 100 gas. The mineral cost is comparable and there's the added gas cost. The perk of the Medivac drop is that medivacs can heal their occupants, the perk of a Warp Prism drop is that if the Warp Prism isn't destroyed immediately you can use it to reinforce that drop with whatever units you like from a Warp Gate. The risks involved in dropping are general risks. Medivacs are almost as easy to shoot down as Warp Prisms are. I admit that Warp Prisms are a little too fragile right now, but I really can't see why Protoss wouldn't utilize Zealot drops once that buff goes through.
Because they really, really, really don't do enough damage. The difference between a medivac's healing and the prism's warp-in is that extra warp in rounds cost me extra money. Plus, if I've already lost the first four zealots, it's likely that the second round will be cleaned up faster and thus do even less damage. The synergy is nowhere near on par with medivac-rine.
The other, key difference is that medivac/rine, with healing and the speed and range of marines, is much easier to escape with intact. Zealots in the enemy base will die. Every zlot-drop costs 400 minerals minimum, every time, because moving the prism into queen/rine range to pick the lots back up is begging for him to kill it. Octodrops can do damage and escape with minimal losses. Zlot drops can't unless he's lightyears out of position for some reason.
|
On August 30 2011 22:06 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 22:03 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:59 Belisarius wrote:On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated. Zealot drops really don't work. They never do enough damage, and even if it "only costs minerals," it's still 600 minerals all up, 400 if you somehow save the prism. You need to do damage to justify that investment. And the reason storm drops are so rare is because the prism is both fragile and slow. If you run into even a single viking, you lose everything within seconds, no way out. Losing a pair of high-energy templar like that hurts more than you can imagine. Medivacs can drop their marines and shoo away the A2A. Even zerg can drop their blings or whatever and leg it back to base if they have to, not to mention the ovie's durability and surprising speed once it's upgraded. HT-prisms have the pentuple setback of being the most fragile, the most micro and setup-intensive, the most defenceless, arguably the most expensive, and carrying a cargo which is so slow that there's no way it will make it back to base on foot. That's, in short, why I don't do them very often. Pros pull them off from time to time, and it's always epic when they do, but they really are a lot harder and a lot riskier than the other race's drops. Maybe comparable to infestor drops from Z. With the prism speed upgrade, which I think is underused, and the buff to prism health, maybe some of that will be mitigated. Total investment to drop 4 Zealots into a base with a Warp Prism 600 minerals. Total Investment to drop 8 Marines into a base with a Medivac, 500 Minerals 100 gas. The mineral cost is comparable and there's the added gas cost. The perk of the Medivac drop is that medivacs can heal their occupants, the perk of a Warp Prism drop is that if the Warp Prism isn't destroyed immediately you can use it to reinforce that drop with whatever units you like from a Warp Gate. The risks involved in dropping are general risks. Medivacs are almost as easy to shoot down as Warp Prisms are. I admit that Warp Prisms are a little too fragile right now, but I really can't see why Protoss wouldn't utilize Zealot drops once that buff goes through. Because they really, really, really don't do enough damage. The difference between a medivac's healing and the prism's warp-in is that extra warp in rounds cost me extra money. Plus, if I've already lost the first four zealots, it's likely that the second round will be cleaned up faster and thus do even less damage. The synergy is nowhere near on par with medivac-rine.
You're assuming that Marine/Medivac drops ALWAYS do damage, while Zealot drops ALWAYS don't.
Ask any Terran player and they'll tell you that dropping is always a risk, there's always a chance your opponent will see it, shoot it down and you're out all the money you invested in it. There's always a chance your marines will land only to get carved up right away and not do anything.
You're assuming that people are always going to respond well to drops, when in fact because you play Protoss you're far less likely to encounter people that take adequate precautions to drops because they aren't used to seeing it from Toss players.
Terran players have to execute drops on players that expect it from us and we still manage ok.
My overall point is that there's a benefit in dropping aside from just causing damage. It causes your opponent to play defensively, constantly check for those things, and feel uneasy about leaving his base undefended. It gives the aggressor an advantage.
|
Another all terran semi-finals coming up it looks like. I sincerely hope July can pull something out of his belly to save a terrible semi-finals.Don't think HuK will take MVP out but one can only hope : )
|
|
|
On August 30 2011 22:09 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 22:06 Belisarius wrote:On August 30 2011 22:03 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:59 Belisarius wrote:On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated. Zealot drops really don't work. They never do enough damage, and even if it "only costs minerals," it's still 600 minerals all up, 400 if you somehow save the prism. You need to do damage to justify that investment. And the reason storm drops are so rare is because the prism is both fragile and slow. If you run into even a single viking, you lose everything within seconds, no way out. Losing a pair of high-energy templar like that hurts more than you can imagine. Medivacs can drop their marines and shoo away the A2A. Even zerg can drop their blings or whatever and leg it back to base if they have to, not to mention the ovie's durability and surprising speed once it's upgraded. HT-prisms have the pentuple setback of being the most fragile, the most micro and setup-intensive, the most defenceless, arguably the most expensive, and carrying a cargo which is so slow that there's no way it will make it back to base on foot. That's, in short, why I don't do them very often. Pros pull them off from time to time, and it's always epic when they do, but they really are a lot harder and a lot riskier than the other race's drops. Maybe comparable to infestor drops from Z. With the prism speed upgrade, which I think is underused, and the buff to prism health, maybe some of that will be mitigated. Total investment to drop 4 Zealots into a base with a Warp Prism 600 minerals. Total Investment to drop 8 Marines into a base with a Medivac, 500 Minerals 100 gas. The mineral cost is comparable and there's the added gas cost. The perk of the Medivac drop is that medivacs can heal their occupants, the perk of a Warp Prism drop is that if the Warp Prism isn't destroyed immediately you can use it to reinforce that drop with whatever units you like from a Warp Gate. The risks involved in dropping are general risks. Medivacs are almost as easy to shoot down as Warp Prisms are. I admit that Warp Prisms are a little too fragile right now, but I really can't see why Protoss wouldn't utilize Zealot drops once that buff goes through. Because they really, really, really don't do enough damage. The difference between a medivac's healing and the prism's warp-in is that extra warp in rounds cost me extra money. Plus, if I've already lost the first four zealots, it's likely that the second round will be cleaned up faster and thus do even less damage. The synergy is nowhere near on par with medivac-rine. You're assuming that Marine/Medivac drops ALWAYS do damage, while Zealot drops ALWAYS don't. Ask any Terran player and they'll tell you that dropping is always a risk, there's always a chance your opponent will see it, shoot it down and you're out all the money you invested in it. There's always a chance your marines will land only to get carved up right away and not do anything. You're assuming that people are always going to respond well to drops, when in fact because you play Protoss you're far less likely to encounter people that take adequate precautions to drops because they aren't used to seeing it from Toss players. Terran players have to execute drops on players that expect it from us and we still manage ok.
I'm not assuming that, I'm stating that it's much easier for marine drops to do so than it is for zealot drops to do so, and that it's also easier for marine drops to escape with minimal losses, making them much cheaper in the long run.
Also, edited this into the other post around the time you replied.
On August 30 2011 22:06 Belisarius wrote:
The other, key difference is that medivac/rine, with healing and the speed and range of marines, is much easier to escape with intact. Zealots in the enemy base will die. Every zlot-drop costs 400 minerals minimum, every time, because moving the prism into queen/rine range to pick the lots back up is begging for him to kill it. Octodrops can do damage and escape with minimal losses. Zlot drops can't unless he's lightyears out of position for some reason.
|
On August 30 2011 21:42 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:35 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. OR an advantage due to race makes those players appear way better than they really are. Statistically speaking, it is WAAAAAY more likely that the race is imbalanced, than that all the TOP10, 15, 20 or what ever players play terran. Occam's razor, my friend. In other words, reduce the damage of marines by 30% and reduce medivac hp to 75 (just for the LULz/not as a serious balance change ---> experiment), and observe the T win ratios plummet. I bet none of the terran players would look brilliant, or like they are outplaying their opponents. They would all suffer brutal losses, P and Z fanboys would all be saying just how baaaaaaaaad they are, and how they need to l2p, and you would be saying that the game is imba, and it would be. Think about this, be4 you post nonsense next time. All right let's assume for a moment that the race itself is imbalanced and there isn't just an insane amount of good Terran players in the GSL. How do you explain that Zergs have currently taken more GSL championships than Terrans have? You could argue with me that it's not Zergs that are taking GSL trophies it's just Nestea, well that isn't a fair argument because there's been exactly 2 different players from each of their respective races taking GSL trophies. Fruitdealer and Nestea, MVP and Polt.
FD was far ahead of the the rest of the players in the first GSL. And noone was familiar with his strats and noone expected a zerg to be much of a threat. That means, it was exactly the right time for a creative and aggressive zerg, like FD, to destroy everyone. Also, back then, play styles of most of the players werent as known as they are now, and the game was not as mature. Most of the terran and protoss had no idea how to counter FD. As ppl started analysing his games, and more counter were discovered, he couldnt do anything.
And Polt won, because of a lucky road to the finals.
On August 30 2011 21:42 aresendez88 wrote:
If it was an imbalance as you claim, there'd be no way that any one BUT a Terran could take a title.
That would only be the case, if terran were absurdly imbalanced. But they are not. They are mildly imbalanced. And not in the sense, that their units are too storng. No, IMO, it is the design of the race, that gives them an advantage. They are flexible due to addons, they have mules, which give them better eco on equal bases (super saturation), they have the best wall offs and only ranged units, they have structures like PFs and sensor towers, which take a lot of the uncertainty out of their game, and allow them to not be punished as hard for being out of position, etc. It's those small "buffers" that compound to big advantage, that makes T stronger.
On August 30 2011 21:42 aresendez88 wrote:
Instead try and consider that it's simply a numbers game. The great Zergs are just as good as the great Terrans, but there's far more Terrans in the GSL to begin with so we end up with equally skewed looking upper brackets. And maybe, just maybe, there are 2, 3 top terrans, just like with zerg and protoss, and the rest of the pack are only good, but have a much easier time against equally good P and Z, thus more T in the GSL.
On August 30 2011 21:42 aresendez88 wrote:In truth the overall results are far less imbalanced than forum goers would have you believe. The Code S title distribution currently stands at 4  3:T 2  . Last stats from Korea show horrible imbalance.
|
On August 30 2011 22:09 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 22:06 Belisarius wrote:On August 30 2011 22:03 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:59 Belisarius wrote:On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated. Zealot drops really don't work. They never do enough damage, and even if it "only costs minerals," it's still 600 minerals all up, 400 if you somehow save the prism. You need to do damage to justify that investment. And the reason storm drops are so rare is because the prism is both fragile and slow. If you run into even a single viking, you lose everything within seconds, no way out. Losing a pair of high-energy templar like that hurts more than you can imagine. Medivacs can drop their marines and shoo away the A2A. Even zerg can drop their blings or whatever and leg it back to base if they have to, not to mention the ovie's durability and surprising speed once it's upgraded. HT-prisms have the pentuple setback of being the most fragile, the most micro and setup-intensive, the most defenceless, arguably the most expensive, and carrying a cargo which is so slow that there's no way it will make it back to base on foot. That's, in short, why I don't do them very often. Pros pull them off from time to time, and it's always epic when they do, but they really are a lot harder and a lot riskier than the other race's drops. Maybe comparable to infestor drops from Z. With the prism speed upgrade, which I think is underused, and the buff to prism health, maybe some of that will be mitigated. Total investment to drop 4 Zealots into a base with a Warp Prism 600 minerals. Total Investment to drop 8 Marines into a base with a Medivac, 500 Minerals 100 gas. The mineral cost is comparable and there's the added gas cost. The perk of the Medivac drop is that medivacs can heal their occupants, the perk of a Warp Prism drop is that if the Warp Prism isn't destroyed immediately you can use it to reinforce that drop with whatever units you like from a Warp Gate. The risks involved in dropping are general risks. Medivacs are almost as easy to shoot down as Warp Prisms are. I admit that Warp Prisms are a little too fragile right now, but I really can't see why Protoss wouldn't utilize Zealot drops once that buff goes through. Because they really, really, really don't do enough damage. The difference between a medivac's healing and the prism's warp-in is that extra warp in rounds cost me extra money. Plus, if I've already lost the first four zealots, it's likely that the second round will be cleaned up faster and thus do even less damage. The synergy is nowhere near on par with medivac-rine. You're assuming that Marine/Medivac drops ALWAYS do damage, while Zealot drops ALWAYS don't. Ask any Terran player and they'll tell you that dropping is always a risk, there's always a chance your opponent will see it, shoot it down and you're out all the money you invested in it. There's always a chance your marines will land only to get carved up right away and not do anything. You're assuming that people are always going to respond well to drops, when in fact because you play Protoss you're far less likely to encounter people that take adequate precautions to drops because they aren't used to seeing it from Toss players. Terran players have to execute drops on players that expect it from us and we still manage ok. My overall point is that there's a benefit in dropping aside from just causing damage. It causes your opponent to play defensively, constantly check for those things, and feel uneasy about leaving his base undefended. It gives the aggressor an advantage.
I think a key point here is that zealots are actually really bad at killing workers. Without speed they will kill basically nothing. With speed they will kill maybe a handful if the terran isnt a complete dumbass. Marines/Marauders on the other hand can decimate an entire mineral line and even a nexus in a frighteningly short amount of time.
|
On August 30 2011 22:06 Belisarius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 22:03 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:59 Belisarius wrote:On August 30 2011 21:36 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:34 Dommk wrote:On August 30 2011 21:25 OrchidThief wrote:On August 30 2011 21:24 CarlaBruni wrote:On August 30 2011 21:15 zimms wrote:
What happened to storm drops? PFs won't save terrans from those. storms drop are not used in competitiv sc2 scene Think that was his point. Why aren't they? Because it takes a lot more effort with marginal gain. A baneling bomb can do just as much damage, is significantly more convenient and requires no further multi-tasking beyond a shift queue. And even if you fail to do damage it isn't as if it was expensive anyway, usually the time the probes send not mining/running away have already costed more resources than the drop it self Where as a Templar drop requires you to invest supply into Warp-prisms, cutting into Colossus production, then wait for full energy Templar. THEN get near the mineral line to drop the Templar and manual cast both storms. If Baneling drops/Terran drops required as much attention and inconvenience then you wouldn't see them as much as well. I think over time the better players will start using them more, but it is hard to use them whilst engaging another army because Protoss engagements require a lot of Focus, usually position, dancing Templar, Forcefields, Storm etc, it isn't like Terran drops where you can just drop the mineral like and not look at it. Sound reasoning, but that doesn't explain why most Protoss just REFUSE to build Warp Prisms at all. Understandably Storm Drops are a bit harder to do than Baneling or Medivac drops, but a Zealot drop is just as easy as a Medivac drop provided there isn't a planetary there and can be just as effective. On top of all of that, Warp Prisms don't cost gas, neither do Zealots. A drop that only costs minerals? I think it's something that is very underrated. Zealot drops really don't work. They never do enough damage, and even if it "only costs minerals," it's still 600 minerals all up, 400 if you somehow save the prism. You need to do damage to justify that investment. And the reason storm drops are so rare is because the prism is both fragile and slow. If you run into even a single viking, you lose everything within seconds, no way out. Losing a pair of high-energy templar like that hurts more than you can imagine. Medivacs can drop their marines and shoo away the A2A. Even zerg can drop their blings or whatever and leg it back to base if they have to, not to mention the ovie's durability and surprising speed once it's upgraded. HT-prisms have the pentuple setback of being the most fragile, the most micro and setup-intensive, the most defenceless, arguably the most expensive, and carrying a cargo which is so slow that there's no way it will make it back to base on foot. That's, in short, why I don't do them very often. Pros pull them off from time to time, and it's always epic when they do, but they really are a lot harder and a lot riskier than the other race's drops. Maybe comparable to infestor drops from Z. With the prism speed upgrade, which I think is underused, and the buff to prism health, maybe some of that will be mitigated. Total investment to drop 4 Zealots into a base with a Warp Prism 600 minerals. Total Investment to drop 8 Marines into a base with a Medivac, 500 Minerals 100 gas. The mineral cost is comparable and there's the added gas cost. The perk of the Medivac drop is that medivacs can heal their occupants, the perk of a Warp Prism drop is that if the Warp Prism isn't destroyed immediately you can use it to reinforce that drop with whatever units you like from a Warp Gate. The risks involved in dropping are general risks. Medivacs are almost as easy to shoot down as Warp Prisms are. I admit that Warp Prisms are a little too fragile right now, but I really can't see why Protoss wouldn't utilize Zealot drops once that buff goes through. Because they really, really, really don't do enough damage. The difference between a medivac's healing and the prism's warp-in is that extra warp in rounds cost me extra money. Plus, if I've already lost the first four zealots, it's likely that the second round will be cleaned up faster and thus do even less damage. The synergy is nowhere near on par with medivac-rine. The other, key difference is that medivac/rine, with healing and the speed and range of marines, is much easier to escape with intact. Zealots in the enemy base will die. Every zlot-drop costs 400 minerals minimum, every time, because moving the prism into queen/rine range to pick the lots back up is begging for him to kill it. Octodrops can do damage and escape with minimal losses. Zlot drops can't unless he's lightyears out of position for some reason.
dont try to compare zealot and marine drops.
you have to drop zealots IN the mineral-line, you cant drop them behind, so you have 1-2 more seconds react.
also marine have more dps and can engage quicker.
|
On August 30 2011 21:54 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:51 mutantmagnet wrote:On August 30 2011 21:42 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:35 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. OR an advantage due to race makes those players appear way better than they really are. Statistically speaking, it is WAAAAAY more likely that the race is imbalanced, than that all the TOP10, 15, 20 or what ever players play terran. Occam's razor, my friend. In other words, reduce the damage of marines by 30% and reduce medivac hp to 75 (just for the LULz/not as a serious balance change ---> experiment), and observe the T win ratios plummet. I bet none of the terran players would look brilliant, or like they are outplaying their opponents. They would all suffer brutal losses, P and Z fanboys would all be saying just how baaaaaaaaad they are, and how they need to l2p, and you would be saying that the game is imba, and it would be. Think about this, be4 you post nonsense next time. All right let's assume for a moment that the race itself is imbalanced and there isn't just an insane amount of good Terran players in the GSL. How do you explain that Zergs have currently taken more GSL championships than Terrans have? You could argue with me that it's not Zergs that are taking GSL trophies it's just Nestea, well that isn't a fair argument because there's been exactly 2 different players from each of their respective races taking GSL trophies. Fruitdealer and Nestea, MVP and Polt. If it was an imbalance as you claim, there'd be no way that any one BUT a Terran could take a title. Instead try and consider that it's simply a numbers game. The great Zergs are just as good as the great Terrans, but there's far more Terrans in the GSL to begin with so we end up with equally skewed looking upper brackets. Do you think it would be fair if almost half of the total GSL participants were Terrans but we ended up with lopsided semis like we had last season every season? In truth the overall results are far less imbalanced than forum goers would have you believe. The Code S title distribution currently stands at 4 Zergs. 3 Terrans. 2 Protoss To be fair we went through 2-3 signficant balance patches by now and the changing map pool is an influencing factor as well. Which further supports my point when you think about it. Fruitdealer won Season 1, and when you think about it Season 1 was when the overall balance of the game as well as the pool of maps favored Terrans the most. We still had Steppes of War back then and yet Fruitdealer managed to win that season. Need I remind you that Fruitdealer is no longer even in Code A, much less Code S now. Few Terran nerfs later and a much better map pool and we have still have people saying things are imbalanced when the overall results don't even support those claims at all.
You're just looking at GSL and going, "lolol zerg won GSL therefore terran is fine l2p", which isn't supported by overall statistics or if you actually look at how the zerg victory occured. The latest stats were horribly imbalanced. Also, the only terran Nestea faced is Ensnare. MVP and Bomber got eliminated from TvT. The formula for a ro4 that isn't completely terran is to hope MVP gets knocked out in TvT and hope nestea and MC avoid all good terrans.
|
On August 30 2011 21:54 aresendez88 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 30 2011 21:51 mutantmagnet wrote:On August 30 2011 21:42 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:35 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:20 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:18 IVN wrote:On August 30 2011 21:13 aresendez88 wrote:On August 30 2011 21:11 Promises wrote:
Top simply outplayed Genius there, Genius made some pretty big mistakes. Well done Top! On the other hand, I'd rather watch some sappy romcom then more TvT, so in that regard I'm sad =/ I find myself rooting for Non-Terrans a lot even though that's my main race just because I enjoy watching something else other than TvT on the GSL. But I have to admit, the Terran players are just so good! They tend to make fewer mistakes and the mistakes they do make aren't at critical moments like the ones Genius was making in Games 2 and 4. It's so easy to blame game balance, but it really doesn't have much to do with it at all. The same old "best players play terran" aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagain? It's not like there aren't fantastic players of the other races also, but even when I see them go down, I just can't bring myself to see it being anything other than good play from the Terran. MC got brought down in the RO32 because he underestimated Noblesse and MvP just straight outplayed him. Nestea went down to MVP because MVP is Nestea's kryptonite. You combine that with the fact that there are just way more Terrans in the GSL to begin with and you have the disparity we're seeing. OR an advantage due to race makes those players appear way better than they really are. Statistically speaking, it is WAAAAAY more likely that the race is imbalanced, than that all the TOP10, 15, 20 or what ever players play terran. Occam's razor, my friend. In other words, reduce the damage of marines by 30% and reduce medivac hp to 75 (just for the LULz/not as a serious balance change ---> experiment), and observe the T win ratios plummet. I bet none of the terran players would look brilliant, or like they are outplaying their opponents. They would all suffer brutal losses, P and Z fanboys would all be saying just how baaaaaaaaad they are, and how they need to l2p, and you would be saying that the game is imba, and it would be. Think about this, be4 you post nonsense next time. All right let's assume for a moment that the race itself is imbalanced and there isn't just an insane amount of good Terran players in the GSL. How do you explain that Zergs have currently taken more GSL championships than Terrans have? You could argue with me that it's not Zergs that are taking GSL trophies it's just Nestea, well that isn't a fair argument because there's been exactly 2 different players from each of their respective races taking GSL trophies. Fruitdealer and Nestea, MVP and Polt. If it was an imbalance as you claim, there'd be no way that any one BUT a Terran could take a title. Instead try and consider that it's simply a numbers game. The great Zergs are just as good as the great Terrans, but there's far more Terrans in the GSL to begin with so we end up with equally skewed looking upper brackets. Do you think it would be fair if almost half of the total GSL participants were Terrans but we ended up with lopsided semis like we had last season every season? In truth the overall results are far less imbalanced than forum goers would have you believe. The Code S title distribution currently stands at 4 Zergs. 3 Terrans. 2 Protoss To be fair we went through 2-3 signficant balance patches by now and the changing map pool is an influencing factor as well. Which further supports my point when you think about it. Fruitdealer won Season 1, and when you think about it Season 1 was when the overall balance of the game as well as the pool of maps favored Terrans the most. We still had Steppes of War back then and yet Fruitdealer managed to win that season. Need I remind you that Fruitdealer is no longer even in Code A, much less Code S now. Few Terran nerfs later and a much better map pool and we have still have people saying things are imbalanced when the overall results don't even support those claims at all.
Actually FD is still in code A, but nevertheless I agree with you.
|
On August 30 2011 21:42 aresendez88 wrote:
How do you explain that Zergs have currently taken more GSL championships than Terrans have? You could argue with me that it's not Zergs that are taking GSL trophies it's just Nestea, well that isn't a fair argument because there's been exactly 2 different players from each of their respective races taking GSL trophies.
Fruitdealer and Nestea, MVP and Polt.
And one for Protoss, MC. Regardless, that's way too small a sample size to draw proper conclusions on, and there are other factors apart from balance here. Besides, the GSL wins have never really followed the logic of imbalance. Example: Fruitdealer and Nestea won GSLs one and two when Zerg was considered heavily underpowered.
On August 30 2011 21:42 aresendez88 wrote:If it was an imbalance as you claim, there'd be no way that any one BUT a Terran could take a title. Instead try and consider that it's simply a numbers game. The great Zergs are just as good as the great Terrans, but there's far more Terrans in the GSL to begin with so we end up with equally skewed looking upper brackets.
Imbalance doesn't mean that there is no chance of anyone taking a title but Terran. It just means the chances are lower than for a Terran, excluding other factors.
Next question: WHY are there so many more Terrans in the GSL to begin with? Is it purely cultural or a remnant from Terran being the race of 3/4 of the BW Bonjwas? Or is it because Protoss is harder to play at the highest skill levels?
Do you think it would be fair if almost half of the total GSL participants were Terrans but we ended up with lopsided semis like we had last season every season?
It depends how well the Terrans play. It depends how well everyone plays. If Terran had a very low win ratio over a period of time it would need looking in to - currently just how Protoss is doing.
In truth the overall results are far less imbalanced than forum goers would have you believe. The Code S title distribution currently stands at 4 Zergs. 3 Terrans. 2 Protoss
Because a sample size of 9 over a period of several patches and multiple changes in the metagame are excellent to gauge how well a particular race is at the moment?
|
I suppose this was the expected result. TOP vs Polt rematch!
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
