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Hello, I will be sponsoring/casting along side ascendtv the Destiny VS sixJaxMaj0r Bo5 Showmatch on Wednesday, August 24th, 7pm PST(I believe). The match should be on the calender soon hopefully, but anyways I hope all you fans of either player show up and watch. It is my first time sponsoring and I hope to sponsor an event involving Destiny at least once a month. If you have any questions feel free to PM me. Enjoy!
http://www.twitch.tv/ascendtv#
Where the match will take place^^
ROOTDestiny (Z) is 550 points, Grand Master League rank 89
http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/310150/Destiny
sixJaxMajor (T) is 796 points, Grand Master League rank 5
http://www.sc2ranks.com/us/2759503/sixjaxMajOr
UPDATE: i am currently trying to reach ascendtv and get everything going. Hold on guys :D
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Go Destiny! This is gnona be sick i'll be sure to tune in
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Easy win for major. Major is much much better than destiny.
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i think it was yesterday Destiny was streaming and talking to Major and Major said Destiny could never beat him (or something to that extent)
so good choice! should be fun
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Love watching Major, great mechanics. And Destiny is always entertaining. Shall be glorious.
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Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1.
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I'd love to see Steven win, but in this case I'll say 3:0 for Major.
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big fan of both, but I definitely have a favourite on this one :/ hope to see good games :D
LOL at Major's 4v4 team , LiquidRet, EGIdrA and Pandii
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On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1.
Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner.
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3-0 Major. Easy win. Never heared of the this unknown other guy he is playing against.
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On August 24 2011 03:02 Arschmade wrote: 3-0 Major. Easy win. Never heared of the this unknown other guy he is playing against.
Trolling or not
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On August 24 2011 03:02 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1. Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner. I don't think he has enough actual accomplishments to be considered above Huk and Idra.
But yeah, he's good.
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On August 24 2011 03:06 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:02 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1. Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner. I don't think he has enough actual accomplishments to be considered above Huk and Idra. But yeah, he's good.
He actually made it to blizzcon this year, unlike the other two ^^ But ye, he needs some impressive tournament results to be considered the best NA player. Here's to a strong showing on blizzcon!
Also, major will win this 3-2. Destiny takes some rediculous comeback game & deflects a rush I'd guess. But major definitely is higher skilled I'd say from watching both of their streams.
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On August 24 2011 03:13 Schwopzi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:06 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:02 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1. Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner. I don't think he has enough actual accomplishments to be considered above Huk and Idra. But yeah, he's good. He actually made it to blizzcon this year, unlike the other two ^^ But ye, he needs some impressive tournament results to be considered the best NA player. Here's to a strong showing on blizzcon! Also, major will win this 3-2. Destiny takes some rediculous comeback game & deflects a rush I'd guess. But major definitely is higher skilled I'd say from watching both of their streams.
Yeah through the LA tournament...
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Destiny's ZvT is unimpressive atm. He's been trying to figure it out before MLG, but I don't know if he'll be able to find a magical solution that doesn't involve banelings.
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big fan of both, but I definitely have a favourite on this one :/ hope to see good games :D
LOL at Major's 4v4 team , LiquidRet, EGIdrA and Pandii
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I'll be rooting for Destiny, but I wouldn't put my money on him right now. Major probably knows his style well and won't be caught by surprise, and it's pretty clear that Major's mechanics are superior.
I'd love to be proven wrong though.
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Major gonna stomp him. 3-0
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Woot hopefully this will be good. Love Major, he is a beast. Destiny isn't bad either.
Hopefully these aren't too one-sided. Destiny was doing practice matches vT on his stream yesterday and the one versus Major was not good. Major had a timing push perfect planned for him, before infesters after he forced roaches. I figure he has at least a few builds easily planned for destiny.
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On August 24 2011 03:22 sashamunguia wrote:big fan of both, but I definitely have a favourite on this one :/ hope to see good games :D LOL at Major's 4v4 team , LiquidRet, EGIdrA and Pandii
haha, I just noticed that too with IdrA playing Protoss xd
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On August 24 2011 03:02 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1. Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner.
wouldn't say that lol, mlg's lots of foreigners make it further then him. But he is a sick good player thats for sure, don't think destiny will take a game off him.
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On August 24 2011 03:06 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:02 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1. Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner. I don't think he has enough actual accomplishments to be considered above Huk and Idra. But yeah, he's good.
Tournaments won =/ skills. If you have a good understanding of the game you can look at how a player play and make a better judgement of the players skill level.
On August 24 2011 03:06 Blade5555 wrote: wouldn't say that lol, mlg's lots of foreigners make it further then him. But he is a sick good player thats for sure, don't think destiny will take a game off him.
Yeh alicia lost in the open bracket as well. Good players some times lose.
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On August 24 2011 03:40 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:06 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:02 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1. Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner. I don't think he has enough actual accomplishments to be considered above Huk and Idra. But yeah, he's good. Tournaments won =/ skills. If you have a good understanding of the game you can look at how a player play and make a better judgement of the players skill level. Whatever dude. You won't find many people agreeing with that notion, but I'm sure you have a better understanding of the game than all of them.
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major will smash destinez ez
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OMG YES! Major gonna own xD!
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Remember guys Major was the first person to beat spanishiwa on the "V" a long time ago, im sure he will own destiny as well =D
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If i could bet on this match, i'd bet my house, car and kidneys on Major.
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As much as I enjoy watching Destiny....he has no chance here unless he has some wierd timing worked out.
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How many more times will we hear about these Destiny show matches when he gets completely stomped in them?
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I like how every time Destiny is always the underdog in these showmatches. Then roflstomps in the showmatch. In an internet showmatch, Destiny is pretty unbeatable.
With that being said, ZvT's meta-game is pretty freaking weird right now. Major 7:3 odds.
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On August 24 2011 04:06 bucckevin wrote: How many more times will we hear about these Destiny show matches when he gets completely stomped in them?
As long as people will want to watch them. Hell, I'm sure those that don't like him love watching the stomping and want to see more of it. Should be interesting and fun to watch as long as there are no dang marine/scv/bunker rushes every game.
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On August 24 2011 04:10 wei2coolman wrote: I like how every time Destiny is always the underdog in these showmatches. Then roflstomps in the showmatch. In an internet showmatch, Destiny is pretty unbeatable.
He just lost 3:0 to Grubby and some Korean terran.
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On August 24 2011 03:43 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:40 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:06 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:02 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1. Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner. I don't think he has enough actual accomplishments to be considered above Huk and Idra. But yeah, he's good. Tournaments won =/ skills. If you have a good understanding of the game you can look at how a player play and make a better judgement of the players skill level. Whatever dude. You won't find many people agreeing with that notion, but I'm sure you have a better understanding of the game than all of them.
Learn to argue by using logic please. You could start by analysing majors weakness's compared to other NA players you find better, and argue why major isn't the best. If you cant do that, dont bother trying to argue who is better than major.
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As a Destiny fan, I know Stevens the underdog for this. Maj0r is strong as hell, one of the strongest American players IMO. While I don't think Destiny will take it, if it does it'll be a real showing of his skill. Maj0r isn't a player who lets people win vs. him on "luck", Steven will need to earn it.
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lol..this is not gonna be close. and we all know who's going to win
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Gosi[terran] 3-0. Kinda obvious, his mechanics are ten times better than Destiny's and he only copies builds from koreans, who seem to finally be using ghosts.
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On August 24 2011 05:08 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:43 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:40 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:06 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:02 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1. Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner. I don't think he has enough actual accomplishments to be considered above Huk and Idra. But yeah, he's good. Tournaments won =/ skills. If you have a good understanding of the game you can look at how a player play and make a better judgement of the players skill level. Whatever dude. You won't find many people agreeing with that notion, but I'm sure you have a better understanding of the game than all of them. Learn to argue by using logic please. Argue? With your logic I could say any random player, for example Drewbie, is the best on NA and reason it with arbitrary "understanding of the game".
No other progamer is calling Major the best player on NA, nor does he have any significant results to make a case for it. Your logic is "I think he's the best, so that makes him the best". How is that good arguing?
You could start by analysing majors weakness's compared to other NA players you find better, and argue why major isn't the best. If you cant do that, dont bother trying to argue who is better than major. When someone is claiming that a relatively underperforming player is better than his peers at the game, the burden of proof lies on the person making that controversial claim.
So go ahead, tell us what exactly makes Major better than these players he keeps losing to.
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Picking Major for 3:1. Destiny is great, but Major knows his play-style too well and is just too strong.
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Major has phenomenal macro and multitask. His micro is lacking, but I think it will be enough.
3-1 Major.
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I love steve but major has this.
Btw sadly, this will soon become in a destiny sucks / 1 trick poney / nerf infestors loloololol thread.
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On August 24 2011 03:02 Arschmade wrote: 3-0 Major. Easy win. Never heared of the this unknown other guy he is playing against.
Uhhh... Destiny is far better known than Major. Destiny is the one who had ten thousand viewers on his stream last night >.>
That being said, Major will probably win. 3-0 or 3-1 is my guess.
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destiny has a good chance.. i mean he did beat dragon once, and beat bomber, i say he has a decent chance
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On August 24 2011 03:02 Arschmade wrote: 3-0 Major. Easy win. Never heared of the this unknown other guy he is playing against.
#god plz tell me you are trolling .... destiny lsat showmatch won 3-2 vs Rain ... and rain is way better then major
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Major is gonna kick ass. 3-1 I think.
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On August 24 2011 06:01 koolaid1990 wrote: destiny has a good chance.. i mean he did beat dragon once, and beat bomber, i say he has a decent chance
*Once.
And he got 3:0'ed by Grubby. It should be either 3:0 or 3:1 with Major demolishing Destiny in an amazing fashion.
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Major has this quite easily probably
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On August 24 2011 06:05 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:02 Arschmade wrote: 3-0 Major. Easy win. Never heared of the this unknown other guy he is playing against. #god plz tell me you are trolling .... destiny lsat showmatch won 3-2 vs Rain ... and rain is way better then major
You must be the one trolling.
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major 3-0. big fan of both, will be a cool showmatch
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On August 24 2011 06:05 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 03:02 Arschmade wrote: 3-0 Major. Easy win. Never heared of the this unknown other guy he is playing against. #god plz tell me you are trolling .... destiny lsat showmatch won 3-2 vs Rain ... and rain is way better then major
Actually his lsat showmatch he lost 3-0 to somerandomKoreandude.
Also good god, why do people keep mentioning "he beat *insertrandomkoreanplayer* X times" as some form of validation? In SC2 anyone can beat anyone at a certain point within a certain upper skill range in a given game, or even a couple games. It's not like where the top of the top, aka Flash, are UNBEATABLE by lesser tiered pros/semipros. SC2 is too volatile and the skill ceiling is too low to allow a tiptop player to DOMINATE without chance of losing to lower tier players. Destiny beating Bomber a couple times means utterly nothing. Stop bringing it up.
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Major probably gonna win this, but im rooting for Destiny. Majors an angry, immature kid who may deserve respect as a gamer but sure as hell doesnt deserve respect as a person
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On August 24 2011 08:39 Supamang wrote: Major probably gonna win this, but im rooting for Destiny. Majors an angry, immature kid who may deserve respect as a gamer but sure as hell doesnt deserve respect as a person
for what? smurfing in a tourney? so evil lol
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Destiny to win!
But Maj0r probably will :L
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On August 24 2011 08:36 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 06:05 CoR wrote:On August 24 2011 03:02 Arschmade wrote: 3-0 Major. Easy win. Never heared of the this unknown other guy he is playing against. #god plz tell me you are trolling .... destiny lsat showmatch won 3-2 vs Rain ... and rain is way better then major Destiny beating Bomber a couple times means utterly nothing. Stop bringing it up.
He said Rain, not bomber. But didn't he also beat bomber?
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3-1 major
destiny too overrated it seems
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major is like the king of spamming ghosts against protoss :D
he should have no problem with destiny
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major will probably win 3-1, but I'm really cheering for destiny. i'd love it if he takes the win.
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On August 24 2011 05:17 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:08 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:43 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:40 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:06 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:02 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1. Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner. I don't think he has enough actual accomplishments to be considered above Huk and Idra. But yeah, he's good. Tournaments won =/ skills. If you have a good understanding of the game you can look at how a player play and make a better judgement of the players skill level. Whatever dude. You won't find many people agreeing with that notion, but I'm sure you have a better understanding of the game than all of them. Learn to argue by using logic please. Argue? With your logic I could say any random player, for example Drewbie, is the best on NA and reason it with arbitrary "understanding of the game". No other progamer is calling Major the best player on NA, nor does he have any significant results to make a case for it. Your logic is "I think he's the best, so that makes him the best". How is that good arguing? Show nested quote +You could start by analysing majors weakness's compared to other NA players you find better, and argue why major isn't the best. If you cant do that, dont bother trying to argue who is better than major. When someone is claiming that a relatively underperforming player is better than his peers at the game, the burden of proof lies on the person making that controversial claim. So go ahead, tell us what exactly makes Major better than these players he keeps losing to.
Lol you obv. have no idea what your talking about. Who does major keeps losing to? Looks like: A) you have barely watched him play. B) You have no idea what tournaments he has entered. And btw he just won a 10k$ tournaments, which you prob have not noticed.
I gave you a relatively simple questions. Try to argue why player x is better than major. But obv. you can't, since you need other progamers to tell you who the best players are. Thats fine dude, but then you should not participate in discussions like this.
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edited
Can't wait for this, not sure who to root for.
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On August 24 2011 09:24 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:17 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 05:08 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:43 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:40 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:06 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:02 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1. Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner. I don't think he has enough actual accomplishments to be considered above Huk and Idra. But yeah, he's good. Tournaments won =/ skills. If you have a good understanding of the game you can look at how a player play and make a better judgement of the players skill level. Whatever dude. You won't find many people agreeing with that notion, but I'm sure you have a better understanding of the game than all of them. Learn to argue by using logic please. Argue? With your logic I could say any random player, for example Drewbie, is the best on NA and reason it with arbitrary "understanding of the game". No other progamer is calling Major the best player on NA, nor does he have any significant results to make a case for it. Your logic is "I think he's the best, so that makes him the best". How is that good arguing? You could start by analysing majors weakness's compared to other NA players you find better, and argue why major isn't the best. If you cant do that, dont bother trying to argue who is better than major. When someone is claiming that a relatively underperforming player is better than his peers at the game, the burden of proof lies on the person making that controversial claim. So go ahead, tell us what exactly makes Major better than these players he keeps losing to. Lol you obv. have no idea what your talking about. Who does major keeps losing to? Looks like: A) you have barely watched him play. B) You have no idea what tournaments he has entered. And btw he just won a 10k$ tournaments, which you prob have not noticed. I gave you a relatively simple questions. Try to argue why player x is better than major. But obv. you can't, since you need other progamers to tell you who the best players are. Thats fine dude, but then you should not participate in discussions like this. LA only tourney. His competetion was weak. Any other good NA player could enter if eligible and win just as easily (huk idra sheth etc) in MLG his placements are average at best. (You know, when theres good competition.)
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On August 24 2011 09:24 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:17 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 05:08 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:43 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:40 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:06 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:02 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1. Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner. I don't think he has enough actual accomplishments to be considered above Huk and Idra. But yeah, he's good. Tournaments won =/ skills. If you have a good understanding of the game you can look at how a player play and make a better judgement of the players skill level. Whatever dude. You won't find many people agreeing with that notion, but I'm sure you have a better understanding of the game than all of them. Learn to argue by using logic please. Argue? With your logic I could say any random player, for example Drewbie, is the best on NA and reason it with arbitrary "understanding of the game". No other progamer is calling Major the best player on NA, nor does he have any significant results to make a case for it. Your logic is "I think he's the best, so that makes him the best". How is that good arguing? You could start by analysing majors weakness's compared to other NA players you find better, and argue why major isn't the best. If you cant do that, dont bother trying to argue who is better than major. When someone is claiming that a relatively underperforming player is better than his peers at the game, the burden of proof lies on the person making that controversial claim. So go ahead, tell us what exactly makes Major better than these players he keeps losing to. Lol you obv. have no idea what your talking about. Who does major keeps losing to? Looks like: A) you have barely watched him play. B) You have no idea what tournaments he has entered. And btw he just won a 10k$ tournaments, which you prob have not noticed. I gave you a relatively simple questions. Try to argue why player x is better than major. But obv. you can't, since you need other progamers to tell you who the best players are. Thats fine dude, but then you should not participate in discussions like this.
It seems to me that you are the one who does not understand logic.
All you have done is claim that he demonstrates great play in his games, yet where are the tournament results? He was the only good player in the LA invitational. When has he shown he can compete with top tier American or European players? At MLG he certainly hasn't.
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I agree that Hider is incredibly arrogant, but he isn't far off calling Major the best NA player... I'd say only Idra is mechanically superior as far as North America goes. I think it's probably Idra > Huk > Select > Major in terms of skill. I think Major has yet to prove himself worthy of being in the same sentence as them though. But with time!
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On August 24 2011 10:07 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 09:24 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 05:17 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 05:08 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:43 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:40 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:06 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:02 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1. Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner. I don't think he has enough actual accomplishments to be considered above Huk and Idra. But yeah, he's good. Tournaments won =/ skills. If you have a good understanding of the game you can look at how a player play and make a better judgement of the players skill level. Whatever dude. You won't find many people agreeing with that notion, but I'm sure you have a better understanding of the game than all of them. Learn to argue by using logic please. Argue? With your logic I could say any random player, for example Drewbie, is the best on NA and reason it with arbitrary "understanding of the game". No other progamer is calling Major the best player on NA, nor does he have any significant results to make a case for it. Your logic is "I think he's the best, so that makes him the best". How is that good arguing? You could start by analysing majors weakness's compared to other NA players you find better, and argue why major isn't the best. If you cant do that, dont bother trying to argue who is better than major. When someone is claiming that a relatively underperforming player is better than his peers at the game, the burden of proof lies on the person making that controversial claim. So go ahead, tell us what exactly makes Major better than these players he keeps losing to. Lol you obv. have no idea what your talking about. Who does major keeps losing to? Looks like: A) you have barely watched him play. B) You have no idea what tournaments he has entered. And btw he just won a 10k$ tournaments, which you prob have not noticed. I gave you a relatively simple questions. Try to argue why player x is better than major. But obv. you can't, since you need other progamers to tell you who the best players are. Thats fine dude, but then you should not participate in discussions like this. LA only tourney. His competetion was weak. Any other good NA player could enter if eligible and win just as easily (huk idra sheth etc) in MLG his placements are average at best. (You know, when theres good competition.)
Thats the thing its hard to get out of the open bracket. Alicia couldnt get out. Does that mean hes any worse then the people in pool play? No. I would bet money that Major can take on more than half of the pool players ez.
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The open bracket is full of complete nobodies until the later rounds. He beats a slew of bad players and then loses when he runs into real competition.
I agree that he is one of the best players in NA, but it's ridiculous to claim that he is better than the likes of Huk, Idra, Sheth, Select, etc without any direct evidence.
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On August 24 2011 10:13 radiantshadow92 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 10:07 Jinivus wrote:On August 24 2011 09:24 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 05:17 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 05:08 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:43 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:40 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:06 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:02 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1. Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner. I don't think he has enough actual accomplishments to be considered above Huk and Idra. But yeah, he's good. Tournaments won =/ skills. If you have a good understanding of the game you can look at how a player play and make a better judgement of the players skill level. Whatever dude. You won't find many people agreeing with that notion, but I'm sure you have a better understanding of the game than all of them. Learn to argue by using logic please. Argue? With your logic I could say any random player, for example Drewbie, is the best on NA and reason it with arbitrary "understanding of the game". No other progamer is calling Major the best player on NA, nor does he have any significant results to make a case for it. Your logic is "I think he's the best, so that makes him the best". How is that good arguing? You could start by analysing majors weakness's compared to other NA players you find better, and argue why major isn't the best. If you cant do that, dont bother trying to argue who is better than major. When someone is claiming that a relatively underperforming player is better than his peers at the game, the burden of proof lies on the person making that controversial claim. So go ahead, tell us what exactly makes Major better than these players he keeps losing to. Lol you obv. have no idea what your talking about. Who does major keeps losing to? Looks like: A) you have barely watched him play. B) You have no idea what tournaments he has entered. And btw he just won a 10k$ tournaments, which you prob have not noticed. I gave you a relatively simple questions. Try to argue why player x is better than major. But obv. you can't, since you need other progamers to tell you who the best players are. Thats fine dude, but then you should not participate in discussions like this. LA only tourney. His competetion was weak. Any other good NA player could enter if eligible and win just as easily (huk idra sheth etc) in MLG his placements are average at best. (You know, when theres good competition.) Thats the thing its hard to get out of the open bracket. Alicia couldnt get out. Does that mean hes any worse then the people in pool play? No. I would bet money that Major can take on more than half of the pool players ez.
Major has already gotten to championship bracket in MLG, he's proven he can compete, while Destiny loses to random NA semi-pros. (Darkcell, Edge, State). I like Destiny, but most of his results are either showmatches, random customs, and a tournament that nobody really cares about anymore. Major doesn't really participate in weekly cups, so of course he isn't going to have many "tournament wins". However, in the tourneys that actually matter, like MLG and Blizzcon qualifiers, he performs. Also, killer, catz, capoch, etc are still better than the people Destiny loses to in open bracket.
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On August 24 2011 08:53 radiantshadow92 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 08:39 Supamang wrote: Major probably gonna win this, but im rooting for Destiny. Majors an angry, immature kid who may deserve respect as a gamer but sure as hell doesnt deserve respect as a person for what? smurfing in a tourney? so evil lol uh yea actually, and for how he responded to people trying to kick him out for smurfing in a tourney. who the hell calls a coordinator a fag because he caught you trying to cheat? I didnt say it was "evil", I said it was immature. and thats not his only instance of douchebaggery. stop being condescending and stop putting words in my mouth
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Major's probably the strongest player in the Americas and Destiny struggles against the oddly-timed rampant aggression that Major loves.
Though Destiny can pull off miracle wins against pretty much anyone.
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If Major prepares or takes the showmatch seriously at all he'll win 3-0. If not he'll win 3-2.
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Pretty easy to guess who is going to win this thing. Major will 3-0 with no problem. He'll even make his marines dance for all the Destiny fangirls.
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Major made it out of open bracket and into pool play at his 1st event in MLG Columbus. He plowed through axslav, spades, and tyler with no problem. In pool play he dominated incontrol and narrowly lost to ret, and he is top 3 NA player. He just won 10k vs catz and dkiller, who aren't really pushovers, and he was a beast at BW, and was up there with IdrA and ret. 3-0 for Major.
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So long as Major plays aggressively, I think it should be 3-0 or 3-1. I've seen Destiny beat Major on the ladder before, but only in longer games where Major failed to apply much successful pressure. Should Destiny manage to get to the late game I think the games will be closer than people would think, however.
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On August 24 2011 09:24 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:17 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 05:08 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:43 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:40 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:06 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:02 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1. Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner. I don't think he has enough actual accomplishments to be considered above Huk and Idra. But yeah, he's good. Tournaments won =/ skills. If you have a good understanding of the game you can look at how a player play and make a better judgement of the players skill level. Whatever dude. You won't find many people agreeing with that notion, but I'm sure you have a better understanding of the game than all of them. Learn to argue by using logic please. Argue? With your logic I could say any random player, for example Drewbie, is the best on NA and reason it with arbitrary "understanding of the game". No other progamer is calling Major the best player on NA, nor does he have any significant results to make a case for it. Your logic is "I think he's the best, so that makes him the best". How is that good arguing? You could start by analysing majors weakness's compared to other NA players you find better, and argue why major isn't the best. If you cant do that, dont bother trying to argue who is better than major. When someone is claiming that a relatively underperforming player is better than his peers at the game, the burden of proof lies on the person making that controversial claim. So go ahead, tell us what exactly makes Major better than these players he keeps losing to. Lol you obv. have no idea what your talking about. Who does major keeps losing to? Looks like: A) you have barely watched him play. B) You have no idea what tournaments he has entered. And btw he just won a 10k$ tournaments, which you prob have not noticed. I gave you a relatively simple questions. Try to argue why player x is better than major. But obv. you can't, since you need other progamers to tell you who the best players are. Thats fine dude, but then you should not participate in discussions like this.
This reminds of a religious debate in which the Christian demands the Atheist to prove that god doesn't exist. He's saying the burden of proof lies on you. He's not going to prove someone is better than Major, you have to prove Major is the best. How do you do that? Tournament results however, every tournament Major has entered he has rather poorly. Beating LA scrubs is no accomplishment. Dignitas Killer is pretty good but thats it.
That said I have nothing against Major. He's really good but Select, Kiwi, Huk, Idra would easily beat him. I'd even put someone like Slush above Major.
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Come to think of it, has there been any official statement by Major or sixjax about the smurfing affair in the SEA tournament?
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Betting on Destiny...................literally 5$ with a friend
come on man win me money!
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On August 24 2011 21:59 MattBarry wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 09:24 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 05:17 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 05:08 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:43 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:40 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:06 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:02 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1. Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner. I don't think he has enough actual accomplishments to be considered above Huk and Idra. But yeah, he's good. Tournaments won =/ skills. If you have a good understanding of the game you can look at how a player play and make a better judgement of the players skill level. Whatever dude. You won't find many people agreeing with that notion, but I'm sure you have a better understanding of the game than all of them. Learn to argue by using logic please. Argue? With your logic I could say any random player, for example Drewbie, is the best on NA and reason it with arbitrary "understanding of the game". No other progamer is calling Major the best player on NA, nor does he have any significant results to make a case for it. Your logic is "I think he's the best, so that makes him the best". How is that good arguing? You could start by analysing majors weakness's compared to other NA players you find better, and argue why major isn't the best. If you cant do that, dont bother trying to argue who is better than major. When someone is claiming that a relatively underperforming player is better than his peers at the game, the burden of proof lies on the person making that controversial claim. So go ahead, tell us what exactly makes Major better than these players he keeps losing to. Lol you obv. have no idea what your talking about. Who does major keeps losing to? Looks like: A) you have barely watched him play. B) You have no idea what tournaments he has entered. And btw he just won a 10k$ tournaments, which you prob have not noticed. I gave you a relatively simple questions. Try to argue why player x is better than major. But obv. you can't, since you need other progamers to tell you who the best players are. Thats fine dude, but then you should not participate in discussions like this. This reminds of a religious debate in which the Christian demands the Atheist to prove that god doesn't exist. He's saying the burden of proof lies on you. He's not going to prove someone is better than Major, you have to prove Major is the best. How do you do that? Tournament results however, every tournament Major has entered he has rather poorly. Beating LA scrubs is no accomplishment. Dignitas Killer is pretty good but thats it. That said I have nothing against Major. He's really good but Select, Kiwi, Huk, Idra would easily beat him. I'd even put someone like Slush above Major.
All i have to say to that is....Your going to eat those words this weekend.
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In how long is this again? Because I'm in Singapore and I can't seem to find what time I can tune in to catch it live.
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On August 25 2011 00:54 saritenite wrote: In how long is this again? Because I'm in Singapore and I can't seem to find what time I can tune in to catch it live. Under 9 hours away
Pretty sure Destiny can take at least one game off, predict MajOr 3-1
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On August 24 2011 08:36 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 06:05 CoR wrote:On August 24 2011 03:02 Arschmade wrote: 3-0 Major. Easy win. Never heared of the this unknown other guy he is playing against. #god plz tell me you are trolling .... destiny lsat showmatch won 3-2 vs Rain ... and rain is way better then major SC2 is too volatile and the skill ceiling is too low to allow a tiptop player to DOMINATE without chance of losing to lower tier players. Destiny beating Bomber a couple times means utterly nothing. Stop bringing it up.
Why do people say this? It has nothing to do with the skill ceiling being too low. No player comes anywhere near the skill cap. Bomber didn't play as well as he usually does and made some mistakes, that's why he lost. It has nothing to do with the volatility of the game or the skill cap being low.
That's like saying Fantasy losing to lower-tiered players because he walks his bio army into lurkers is because of the game being volatile and having a low skill cap. It's not, it's because he did something stupid and lost because of it.
Destiny will most likely get stomped though. Trimaster showed that multi-pronged drops are the best counter to Destiny's style and Major is amazing at multitask, so...
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On August 25 2011 01:06 TheWahbinator wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 00:54 saritenite wrote: In how long is this again? Because I'm in Singapore and I can't seem to find what time I can tune in to catch it live. Under 9 hours away Pretty sure Destiny can take at least one game off, predict MajOr 3-1
Bother, got to wake up early
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Match still not on the calender. :,(
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On August 24 2011 09:24 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 05:17 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 05:08 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:43 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:40 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 03:06 Bagi wrote:On August 24 2011 03:02 Hider wrote:On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1. Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner. I don't think he has enough actual accomplishments to be considered above Huk and Idra. But yeah, he's good. Tournaments won =/ skills. If you have a good understanding of the game you can look at how a player play and make a better judgement of the players skill level. Whatever dude. You won't find many people agreeing with that notion, but I'm sure you have a better understanding of the game than all of them. Learn to argue by using logic please. Argue? With your logic I could say any random player, for example Drewbie, is the best on NA and reason it with arbitrary "understanding of the game". No other progamer is calling Major the best player on NA, nor does he have any significant results to make a case for it. Your logic is "I think he's the best, so that makes him the best". How is that good arguing? You could start by analysing majors weakness's compared to other NA players you find better, and argue why major isn't the best. If you cant do that, dont bother trying to argue who is better than major. When someone is claiming that a relatively underperforming player is better than his peers at the game, the burden of proof lies on the person making that controversial claim. So go ahead, tell us what exactly makes Major better than these players he keeps losing to. Lol you obv. have no idea what your talking about. Who does major keeps losing to? Looks like: A) you have barely watched him play. B) You have no idea what tournaments he has entered. And btw he just won a 10k$ tournaments, which you prob have not noticed. I gave you a relatively simple questions. Try to argue why player x is better than major. But obv. you can't, since you need other progamers to tell you who the best players are. Thats fine dude, but then you should not participate in discussions like this. You're absolutely adorable, you know that?
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Major is pretty sick, should take this one with ease.
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The match is currently scheduled to appear in two hours. Ascendtv is supposed to cast it also.
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Hyped to see major play ^_^
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Around one more hour! Trying to get everyone situated guys.
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It is 9:01PM EST but the channel at ascendTV is still not showing anything
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You should update the OP for the time changes.
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On August 25 2011 09:57 Datgamer wrote: Around one more hour! Trying to get everyone situated guys.
Ah okay thanks We all thought it was supposed to come on now!
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If Desti-nay doesn't win ima flip some tables
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Norway4 Posts
I dont understand how this game can accour? destiny is traveling to raleight ? someone confirm:D
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He is traveling tomorrow i believe.So he has time to do one tonight
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On August 24 2011 03:18 mbr2321 wrote: Destiny's ZvT is unimpressive atm. He's been trying to figure it out before MLG, but I don't know if he'll be able to find a magical solution that doesn't involve banelings.
Destiny's ZvT doesn't include banelings that much, his ZvT style is a unique Ling Infestor Combination and in late game Brood/Ling/Infestors
if destiny can survive the early game, he has a chance to beat major in mid and late game. Destiny can get raped in early game though.....
but still, Destiny 3-2
GO DESTINY!
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Norway4 Posts
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I'm interested to see how MajOr does against Destiny. They have played a lot of practice games on Destiny's stream and it seems as though MajOr comes out on top a high percentage of the time, but we'll have to see. Destiny frequently notes that his early to mid game ZvT is his worst matchup so just have to hope for those Brood Lords.
Edit:
Predict Destiny 3 : 2 MajOr
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On August 25 2011 10:53 TemujinGK wrote: I'm interested to see how MajOr does against Destiny. They have played a lot of practice games on Destiny's stream and it seems as though MajOr comes out on top a high percentage of the time, but we'll have to see. Destiny frequently notes that his early to mid game ZvT is his worst matchup so just have to hope for those Brood Lords.
Edit:
Predict Destiny 3 : 2 MajOr
Destiny's mid game is actually pretty good, its only his early game that can get him killed
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I feel like Destiny was trying to flood all in with lings until he realized he forgot speed
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he didnt forget, he delayed! that is destiny for ya
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Well, obviously he wasn't getting it early because he was going roach, but I think he meant to get it before he produced 40 lings
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unbelievable how much better major is than destiny: average of 2k minerals floated for destiny to major's 200
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How the heck??
lol, Destiny's play never ceases to surprise me with its efficiency. Maj0r a little sloppy with his vikings + ghosts though. I predict a comeback from Maj0r in this series given how good he was with his drop play earlier in the game.
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Destiny was essentially maxed, he couldn't spend those minerals.
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On August 25 2011 11:20 LicH. wrote: unbelievable how much better major is than destiny: average of 2k minerals floated for destiny to major's 200 You were saying?
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Major stacked up all those vikings, and let a bunch of marines accidentally die to fungal. Those were his main 2 problems I think.
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On August 25 2011 11:20 LicH. wrote: unbelievable how much better major is than destiny: average of 2k minerals floated for destiny to major's 200 God, so much better! Destiny 1-0
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wow, terran dropping 50+ supply in 1 second is stupid. Apparently not imba tho .
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On August 25 2011 11:20 LicH. wrote: unbelievable how much better major is than destiny: average of 2k minerals floated for destiny to major's 200
Zerg does that... they use all their gas and float minerals.
+ Show Spoiler +And obviously, Major wasn't better than Destiny that game
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Game one was on shattered temple.
Game two is on XNC.
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Major so ahead right now in game 2
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Lol, I think I heard the beginning to Friday, but then he said, "no that's bad".
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Destiny hates that map so much.
+ Show Spoiler +
Game three is on Shakuras Plateau.
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Well this is looking ugly, but predictably so
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I didn't see game 1, but + Show Spoiler +Major totally outclassed destiny in games 2-4
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looks like major can only win on 2 base
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lol ez.. Awesome job by major =D
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On August 25 2011 12:02 Ghoststrikes wrote:I didn't see game 1, but + Show Spoiler +Major totally outclassed destiny in games 2-4
game 1 destiny won because one fungal hit 15 or so vikings
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Holy shit I have never seen such domination in game 3 and game 4...
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Lol Destiny gets owned then bm's out
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only saw last 2 games but last game was a map choice win. 2nd to last game was a great play by major
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wow that game demosntrated the giant skill gap.
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On August 25 2011 12:02 Ghoststrikes wrote:I didn't see game 1, but + Show Spoiler +Major totally outclassed destiny in games 2-4
Outclass? he just did early game pushes that every zerg has trouble with.
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ouch that was hard to watch. GG major
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On August 25 2011 12:02 KingFranX wrote: Lol Destiny gets owned then bm's out
wouldn't bm'ing out involve actually saying something? Or are you one of those people
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+ Show Spoiler +I think it's fair to say Destiny is nowhere near a top-tier foreign player now. Major's play is WAYY more refined.
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Excellent. Major shows the gaping holes in Destiny's play everyone always talks about.
GG Major, very nicely read and played. Your reaper play had me in stitches.
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Good series, very good early aggression from Major. I wish he and Destiny played/practiced together a lot. Think that would be supremely helpful to Destiny's early game.
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I'm not particularly a fan of either of these players (in fact quite the opposite), but MajOr completely dominated in the 3 games he won. Game 1 was very well played by Destiny though; I expected him to fall apart once MajOr's drops kicked into gear.
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Looks like Destiny was out of his league. Sadly I do think he's a little overrated by his fans sometimes but I wish him luck in general. Maybe if he can pull together the right mentality he can make a splash at MLG.
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On August 25 2011 12:03 BlueHydra wrote:Outclass? he just did early game pushes that every zerg has trouble with.
He did those pushes after doing early damage in each of everyone of these 3 games, knowing very well that he was far ahead. The key to those games were early pressure that did major (!) damage. And yeah, getting 10+ kills with reapers is outclassing IMO
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Destiny loses and immediately gets placed against Tarson in 1v1 lol...
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On August 25 2011 12:04 Juvant wrote: Good series, very good early aggression from Major. I wish he and Destiny played/practiced together a lot. Think that would be supremely helpful to Destiny's early game. This.
Good series!
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Can anyone give a summary on the banter/chat at the start of this game? Can't read it on my iphone Edit: Against tarson... Lol.. All the same, any takers? "
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LOL why are all these people talking about outclassing destiny? All major did was early timing pushes, give me a break. destiny won the macro game, which was the first, major saw he couldnt beat him in a macro game so he does early strong terran pushes that any zerg loses to, and if ur a zerg, you would know that any zerg can lose to them, just ask idra.
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This series reminds me of something Day9 said. If your late game is really strong, it's because you're cutting corners in the early/mid. If you're really weak in the early game, sacrifice a little bit of that late game strength by playing more conservative in the early game.
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On August 25 2011 12:08 BlueHydra wrote: LOL why are all these people talking about outclassing destiny? All major did was early timing pushes, give me a break. destiny won the macro game, which was the first, major saw he couldnt beat him in a macro game so he does early strong terran pushes that any zerg loses to, and if ur a zerg, you would know that any zerg can lose to them, just ask idra.
Destiny lost the "macro game" first game, was behind the entire game, and only won because he literally hit one fungal.
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On August 25 2011 12:10 LicH. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:08 BlueHydra wrote: LOL why are all these people talking about outclassing destiny? All major did was early timing pushes, give me a break. destiny won the macro game, which was the first, major saw he couldnt beat him in a macro game so he does early strong terran pushes that any zerg loses to, and if ur a zerg, you would know that any zerg can lose to them, just ask idra. Destiny lost the "macro game" first game, was behind the entire game, and only won because he literally hit one fungal.
So you really think he only won that game because of the fungal? lol
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On August 25 2011 12:08 BlueHydra wrote: LOL why are all these people talking about outclassing destiny? All major did was early timing pushes, give me a break. destiny won the macro game, which was the first, major saw he couldnt beat him in a macro game so he does early strong terran pushes that any zerg loses to, and if ur a zerg, you would know that any zerg can lose to them, just ask idra.
Because losing 5 drones to a single early-game reaper scout is standard zerg play.
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I think it;s unfair to say he can;t beat him in a macro game. A couple nights ago he did just that on Destiny's stream, very long multi based game. You need to pressure the zerg before their economy gets out of hand, and because he did so much with his pressure, there was no way for Destiny to take it to a macro game.
There were no all ins in the whole series, Major never had a do or die moment, he was always looking for an opportunity to expand behind his attacks. I think it's unfair to say that because his pressure timing ended the game, there's is an indication that he's afraid of a macro game against Destiny.
That being said, Destiny is definitely more in his element the farther the game goes.
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On August 25 2011 12:08 BlueHydra wrote: LOL why are all these people talking about outclassing destiny? All major did was early timing pushes, give me a break. destiny won the macro game, which was the first, major saw he couldnt beat him in a macro game so he does early strong terran pushes that any zerg loses to, and if ur a zerg, you would know that any zerg can lose to them, just ask idra. Lets say Major can only win with timing pushes, but Destiny can only win by turling to infestor/broodlord on shattered temple. I think we both know which takes more skill :/
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On August 25 2011 12:11 BlueHydra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:10 LicH. wrote:On August 25 2011 12:08 BlueHydra wrote: LOL why are all these people talking about outclassing destiny? All major did was early timing pushes, give me a break. destiny won the macro game, which was the first, major saw he couldnt beat him in a macro game so he does early strong terran pushes that any zerg loses to, and if ur a zerg, you would know that any zerg can lose to them, just ask idra. Destiny lost the "macro game" first game, was behind the entire game, and only won because he literally hit one fungal. So you really think he only won that game because of the fungal? lol
Yep
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gaah i missed this. Are replays or VODs out anywhere?
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On August 25 2011 12:14 Jinivus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:08 BlueHydra wrote: LOL why are all these people talking about outclassing destiny? All major did was early timing pushes, give me a break. destiny won the macro game, which was the first, major saw he couldnt beat him in a macro game so he does early strong terran pushes that any zerg loses to, and if ur a zerg, you would know that any zerg can lose to them, just ask idra. Lets say Major can only win with timing pushes, but Destiny can only win by turling to infestor/broodlord on shattered temple. I think we both know which takes more skill :/
Are you implying that late game TvZ takes less skill than early game timing pushes? i hope thats a joke..
Also, turtling? his play is hardly turtling. if thats turtling i dont know what you would call manas pvz.
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Apparently, Mr. Bonnell didn't listen to white-ra with his now famous quote, "more gg, more skill" It's always funny when Destiny dies to pokes and then rages at "cheese", i don't care how big of a fanboy you are, no way to deny that he got crushed in those games. Nice Play major!
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On August 25 2011 12:16 BlueHydra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:14 Jinivus wrote:On August 25 2011 12:08 BlueHydra wrote: LOL why are all these people talking about outclassing destiny? All major did was early timing pushes, give me a break. destiny won the macro game, which was the first, major saw he couldnt beat him in a macro game so he does early strong terran pushes that any zerg loses to, and if ur a zerg, you would know that any zerg can lose to them, just ask idra. Lets say Major can only win with timing pushes, but Destiny can only win by turling to infestor/broodlord on shattered temple. I think we both know which takes more skill :/ Are you implying that late game TvZ takes less skill than early game timing pushes? i hope thats a joke.. Also, turtling? his play is hardly turtling. if thats turtling i dont know what you would call manas pvz.
if 2 base infestor broodlord isn't turtling then I don't know what is. You've obviously never played against destiny yourself
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On August 25 2011 12:20 LicH. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:16 BlueHydra wrote:On August 25 2011 12:14 Jinivus wrote:On August 25 2011 12:08 BlueHydra wrote: LOL why are all these people talking about outclassing destiny? All major did was early timing pushes, give me a break. destiny won the macro game, which was the first, major saw he couldnt beat him in a macro game so he does early strong terran pushes that any zerg loses to, and if ur a zerg, you would know that any zerg can lose to them, just ask idra. Lets say Major can only win with timing pushes, but Destiny can only win by turling to infestor/broodlord on shattered temple. I think we both know which takes more skill :/ Are you implying that late game TvZ takes less skill than early game timing pushes? i hope thats a joke.. Also, turtling? his play is hardly turtling. if thats turtling i dont know what you would call manas pvz. if 2 base infestor broodlord isn't turtling then I don't know what is. You've obviously never played against destiny yourself
What do you suggest all zergs do before mutas are up, or broodlord/infestor?
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On August 25 2011 12:15 imBLIND wrote: gaah i missed this. Are replays or VODs out anywhere?
If you want the VODs right now, you can view the highlights on TwitchTV. If you wish to use YouTube for whatever reason the very same highlights will be uploaded to http://youtube.com/RageQuitTV
If you don't like my casting Ascend and Thundertoss also covered the event, however I don't know where their VODs are.
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On August 25 2011 12:08 BlueHydra wrote: LOL why are all these people talking about outclassing destiny? All major did was early timing pushes, give me a break. destiny won the macro game, which was the first, major saw he couldnt beat him in a macro game so he does early strong terran pushes that any zerg loses to, and if ur a zerg, you would know that any zerg can lose to them, just ask idra.
Blind Destiny fanboy detected. Proceed with caution.
I love Destiny's tactics, don't get me wrong. Just his play is very unrefined still.
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I'm in no way biased towards either player, but strictly from facts, I'm not surprised with the results. MajOr is basically showing Destiny the gap between being just a high-level ladder player and a real Pro... MajOr has way more refinement to his play than Destiny....and he showed it. And to all the people saying MajOr is afraid of a macro game...you haven't seen enough of his games yet then...
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On August 25 2011 12:23 BlueHydra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:20 LicH. wrote:On August 25 2011 12:16 BlueHydra wrote:On August 25 2011 12:14 Jinivus wrote:On August 25 2011 12:08 BlueHydra wrote: LOL why are all these people talking about outclassing destiny? All major did was early timing pushes, give me a break. destiny won the macro game, which was the first, major saw he couldnt beat him in a macro game so he does early strong terran pushes that any zerg loses to, and if ur a zerg, you would know that any zerg can lose to them, just ask idra. Lets say Major can only win with timing pushes, but Destiny can only win by turling to infestor/broodlord on shattered temple. I think we both know which takes more skill :/ Are you implying that late game TvZ takes less skill than early game timing pushes? i hope thats a joke.. Also, turtling? his play is hardly turtling. if thats turtling i dont know what you would call manas pvz. if 2 base infestor broodlord isn't turtling then I don't know what is. You've obviously never played against destiny yourself What do you suggest all zergs do before mutas are up, or broodlord/infestor?
You're kidding yourself if you think that Major needed to gimmick his way to a victory. Being 30+ supply up on a zerg BEFORE a timing hits? Give me a break man. And none of those early aggressions were all in at all, quite the opposite in fact. You just come across as a really ignorant fanboy making outlandish comments to the effect that Major couldn't beat Destiny in a macro game.
What more likely happened is that Major saw wholes in Destiny's early to midgame that he could exploit, and then he did.
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On August 25 2011 12:07 PoopLord wrote: Destiny loses and immediately gets placed against Tarson in 1v1 lol...
And he just stomped Tarson too ^^ That was an amaaaaaazing game
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3-1 major haha
looks like my prediction was right
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Let me guess, destiny did a infestor two base, all four games?
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nicely done by major, I really hope to see them once again, but this time, having more macro games :/
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On August 25 2011 12:51 OscarN wrote: Let me guess, destiny did a infestor two base, all four games?
*tried to do two base infestor :D
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On August 25 2011 12:03 BlueHydra wrote:Outclass? he just did early game pushes that every zerg has trouble with.
It's true that terran early game all-in pushes can be very hard to deal with, but that wasn't the case here. These pushes were simply not all-in whatsoever. If destiny had a good defense, major simply would have slowly retreated back, and have a good economy behind it.
Let's look at the games.
In those games, he typically got his 3rd up and running while he pushed out. Major gets his 3rd up and running before Destiny gets a secure 3rd.
Suppose Destiny destroys the push, but trades resources at a 4:5 ratio. IE Destiny loses 4000 resources worth of units for every 5000 major loses in his push. What would the situation be then? Destiny would actually still be drastically behind. Major had 74 workers at the end of the last game. 74 is pretty much the most amount of workers you would ever want at once, especially as terran. Meanwhile, Destiny had far, far less workers.
Those pushes were very regular pressure pushes in a typical TvZ build. They are fundamental to playing TvZ in a heavy macro style. But, in those games, they ended the game.
It's not because Destiny is so bad he can't handle regular pressure builds. It's because Destiny was already far, far behind by the time the pushes came out. Destiny would need to crush that push in order to have a good chance to win the game.
So let's examine what happened earlier in the games, that caused Major to be at such an overwhelming advantage.
Specifically, let's look at the last build that Major does, which I am quite familiar with on both sides of the coin. Major opens with a hellion expand, which is a very good opening. In fact it's one of my favorite TvZ openings. You see, there are many different kinds of hellion openings for T. We've seen the Slayers terrans favor blue flame hellion openings with drop. There are bfh hellion openings with a heavy count of bfh. These builds typically try to inflict massive amounts of drone damage. At the very least, they need to inflict a decent amount of economic damage or force a large enough response to make the opening worth it. The reactor hellion opening, however, is a different breed. What typically happens is you build 2-6 hellions, which you will send out, and while they are out, you are getting your 2nd up and running. The CC is actually rather fast. An important trait about this build is that there isn't a heavy commitment that must be paid for with drone blood. So you build 4-6 hellions. Even if you just snipe a single drone, you are really in a good position. You are not behind if you fail to do economic damage, provided that you do not lose those hellions for free. Those 4-6 hellions are the price for map control. You will restrict creep spread past their nat. You will prevent their lings from having free reign over the map. You will force some kind of response, whether it is a spine crawler or more lings. In fact, without the spine crawler, you can probably pick off a few lings for free. Any economic damage you inflict is merely extra. The important point is to not commit your hellions unless you think you have a good chance of inflicting damage. And that was the position Major found himself in game 4. One big mistake Destiny was timing. He did build a spine crawler, but he didn't have a 2nd queen out, and in addition, the spine crawler was a few seconds too slow. Furthermore, he had a rather low initial ling count. A great way to deal with a reactor hellion is to have a one spinecrawler up, and a handful of speedlings and a queen along with it. Destiny only had 1 queen, and it was at his main. His lings, which, iirc, was something like 2 pairs, isn't enough to stop a hellion runby. A ling/spinecrawler defense against hellion runbies works by zoning them out. They can't attempt a runby because it becomes incredibly risky. Just a handful of lings will trap the hellions, impeding their movements. Just a couple seconds of delaying the hellions will do enough damage to the runby hellions to render them very manageable and simple to deal with. Roaches were used by Destiny in previous games, and may seem like an obvious solution, but roaches aren't the ideal counter, and, in fact, I think they're quite a poor counter. If you make 2 roaches to fend off 4 hellions, you're investing 200 minerals in a roach warren, AND 200 resources of roaches, which is equivalent to the 400 resources sunk in hellions, but you don't get any map control with those roaches, and hellions add more to terran midgame than zerg adds to zerg midgame. Another aspect to keep in mind is that to get the 2 roaches out for the hellion timing, you have to have the roach warren building rather early. At that stage of zerg's economy, the bottleneck for drone production is minerals. In fact, many zergs get an early creep tumor around that time because they have excess larva if they have 2 queens and 2 hatches. Wait just a bit longer, and it isn't so bad to throw down a last minute spine crawler. Destiny, you see, doesn't have a "standard" ZvT opener. The standard openers involve a fast zergling speed upgrade. This makes it much easier to deal with hellion and marine pressure. This also gives zerg an advantage in map control. This is because Destiny doesn't have a standard style of ZvT. As we all know, he likes heavy infestor play. He wants to get to the infestor phase as soon as possible, and it is there that he can be comfortable enough to get his 3rd, harass, inflict damage, defend, tech, and get set up for the fast broodlord/infestor push. You notice, in the games before the last game, Destiny delayed his zergling speed upgrade. There are a few very good reasons why standard ZvT involves a rather fast speed upgrade. For one, marine stutter step micro makes marines very efficient against slow zerglings. With speed upgrade, marines don't become super efficient against zerglings again until the unit counts gets bigger or until stim is available. Heavy marine pressure has very little risk for the terran player if the zerg has no speed upgrade. The zerg can't punish the terran for poking in with the marines, and the terran can poke in and get free units this way, unless zerg invests in a couple spines. And there are other good reasons for faster ling speed, such as reapers and hellions. Naturally, Major, who's regularly employed reaper and hellion openings in the past, sought fit to punish Destiny for this hole in his early game. The hellions and the reapers are not unusual builds. They would do quite fine against a standard ZvT build, even when the zerg player is fully prepared. If zerg gets late speed, however, they suddenly become very, very deadly. This explains a lot of why Destiny lost games 2 and 3. And the thing that absolutely convinced Destiny that he had to change his opening build game 4, was that Major didn't need to sacrifice anything significant for that capability. He was playing a TvZ build that is very solid and will match up just fine against a solid ZvT build. So Destiny had to adjust game 4 and get his speed upgrade earlier. However, his timings for the lings was a bit off and he took a lot of damage, putting him at a disadvantage. Major followed up his highly successful hellion harass with single banshee harass. This follow up is fairly popular and is rather macro oriented. The idea is that there is no tech cost for the banshee; everything necessary for banshee production is already there. The tech lab is going to be used for stim. The starport is going to be used for medivac production. But if you use the starport and the techlab for a short period, you only need to spend 150/100 for a banshee. This is 250 units of resources. A standard TvZ build doesn't need a heavy gas count at this period, so the gas cost isn't significant. The banshee goes out and can guarantee a couple of drone kills without dying. It is just a very minor harass, typically. The idea is that scv production is limited compared to zerg drone production. Shaving a couple drones here and there will add up, keeping the terran at an ok position against the zerg. Shave a bit more than needed with some good maneuvering and tactics, and then you're looking at a slight economic advantage against zerg. Furthermore, the single banshee isn't bad later on. It can continue harassment until mutalisks come out. If you keep it around, it does some nice dps, and it can delay a 3rd for a little bit. Banshee comes in, and Destiny only has one queen, with no creep spread between the main and nat. ZvT builds typically involve hatch-first with 2 early queens. You get enough energy to drop one creep tumor before you need to spend the rest of the energy for larva injects. That one creep tumor will make its way from the main, connect the natural, and then make its way out or, more usefully, connect creep towards a potential 3rd. For a map like tald'arim, you can get a nice creep spread to the 3rd by the time you want to take it, making it safer against harass. That main-to-nat creep connection is specifically for queens to defend against drops and banshees. Queens are actually very good AA units. Banshee harass and drop harass can be very deadly and difficult to deal with without this creep spread. Destiny had only one queen at his main, and no creep spread. That banshee harass turned from what typically is just minor, but steady harass, into something more significant. Along with all the drones lost to the hellions, the damage done by the banshee was devastating. By this time, it was Major's game to lose. So long as he didn't make any critical mistake, or get massively outplayed in some way, he was going to win the game.
Major's push was just him playing as he is supposed to. If it got defended, he would have several more shots left available.
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Whoa. Pretty long write-up ._.
What was the final score btw?
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On August 25 2011 13:47 YoiChiBow wrote: Whoa. Pretty long write-up ._.
What was the final score btw? + Show Spoiler +
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+ Show Spoiler +t's true that terran early game all-in pushes can be very hard to deal with, but that wasn't the case here. These pushes were simply not all-in whatsoever. If destiny had a good defense, major simply would have slowly retreated back, and have a good economy behind it.
Let's look at the games.
In those games, he typically got his 3rd up and running while he pushed out. Major gets his 3rd up and running before Destiny gets a secure 3rd.
Suppose Destiny destroys the push, but trades resources at a 4:5 ratio. IE Destiny loses 4000 resources worth of units for every 5000 major loses in his push. What would the situation be then? Destiny would actually still be drastically behind. Major had 74 workers at the end of the last game. 74 is pretty much the most amount of workers you would ever want at once, especially as terran. Meanwhile, Destiny had far, far less workers.
Those pushes were very regular pressure pushes in a typical TvZ build. They are fundamental to playing TvZ in a heavy macro style. But, in those games, they ended the game.
It's not because Destiny is so bad he can't handle regular pressure builds. It's because Destiny was already far, far behind by the time the pushes came out. Destiny would need to crush that push in order to have a good chance to win the game.
So let's examine what happened earlier in the games, that caused Major to be at such an overwhelming advantage.
Specifically, let's look at the last build that Major does, which I am quite familiar with on both sides of the coin. Major opens with a hellion expand, which is a very good opening. In fact it's one of my favorite TvZ openings. You see, there are many different kinds of hellion openings for T. We've seen the Slayers terrans favor blue flame hellion openings with drop. There are bfh hellion openings with a heavy count of bfh. These builds typically try to inflict massive amounts of drone damage. At the very least, they need to inflict a decent amount of economic damage or force a large enough response to make the opening worth it. The reactor hellion opening, however, is a different breed. What typically happens is you build 2-6 hellions, which you will send out, and while they are out, you are getting your 2nd up and running. The CC is actually rather fast. An important trait about this build is that there isn't a heavy commitment that must be paid for with drone blood. So you build 4-6 hellions. Even if you just snipe a single drone, you are really in a good position. You are not behind if you fail to do economic damage, provided that you do not lose those hellions for free. Those 4-6 hellions are the price for map control. You will restrict creep spread past their nat. You will prevent their lings from having free reign over the map. You will force some kind of response, whether it is a spine crawler or more lings. In fact, without the spine crawler, you can probably pick off a few lings for free. Any economic damage you inflict is merely extra. The important point is to not commit your hellions unless you think you have a good chance of inflicting damage. And that was the position Major found himself in game 4. One big mistake Destiny was timing. He did build a spine crawler, but he didn't have a 2nd queen out, and in addition, the spine crawler was a few seconds too slow. Furthermore, he had a rather low initial ling count. A great way to deal with a reactor hellion is to have a one spinecrawler up, and a handful of speedlings and a queen along with it. Destiny only had 1 queen, and it was at his main. His lings, which, iirc, was something like 2 pairs, isn't enough to stop a hellion runby. A ling/spinecrawler defense against hellion runbies works by zoning them out. They can't attempt a runby because it becomes incredibly risky. Just a handful of lings will trap the hellions, impeding their movements. Just a couple seconds of delaying the hellions will do enough damage to the runby hellions to render them very manageable and simple to deal with. Roaches were used by Destiny in previous games, and may seem like an obvious solution, but roaches aren't the ideal counter, and, in fact, I think they're quite a poor counter. If you make 2 roaches to fend off 4 hellions, you're investing 200 minerals in a roach warren, AND 200 resources of roaches, which is equivalent to the 400 resources sunk in hellions, but you don't get any map control with those roaches, and hellions add more to terran midgame than zerg adds to zerg midgame. Another aspect to keep in mind is that to get the 2 roaches out for the hellion timing, you have to have the roach warren building rather early. At that stage of zerg's economy, the bottleneck for drone production is minerals. In fact, many zergs get an early creep tumor around that time because they have excess larva if they have 2 queens and 2 hatches. Wait just a bit longer, and it isn't so bad to throw down a last minute spine crawler. Destiny, you see, doesn't have a "standard" ZvT opener. The standard openers involve a fast zergling speed upgrade. This makes it much easier to deal with hellion and marine pressure. This also gives zerg an advantage in map control. This is because Destiny doesn't have a standard style of ZvT. As we all know, he likes heavy infestor play. He wants to get to the infestor phase as soon as possible, and it is there that he can be comfortable enough to get his 3rd, harass, inflict damage, defend, tech, and get set up for the fast broodlord/infestor push. You notice, in the games before the last game, Destiny delayed his zergling speed upgrade. There are a few very good reasons why standard ZvT involves a rather fast speed upgrade. For one, marine stutter step micro makes marines very efficient against slow zerglings. With speed upgrade, marines don't become super efficient against zerglings again until the unit counts gets bigger or until stim is available. Heavy marine pressure has very little risk for the terran player if the zerg has no speed upgrade. The zerg can't punish the terran for poking in with the marines, and the terran can poke in and get free units this way, unless zerg invests in a couple spines. And there are other good reasons for faster ling speed, such as reapers and hellions. Naturally, Major, who's regularly employed reaper and hellion openings in the past, sought fit to punish Destiny for this hole in his early game. The hellions and the reapers are not unusual builds. They would do quite fine against a standard ZvT build, even when the zerg player is fully prepared. If zerg gets late speed, however, they suddenly become very, very deadly. This explains a lot of why Destiny lost games 2 and 3. And the thing that absolutely convinced Destiny that he had to change his opening build game 4, was that Major didn't need to sacrifice anything significant for that capability. He was playing a TvZ build that is very solid and will match up just fine against a solid ZvT build. So Destiny had to adjust game 4 and get his speed upgrade earlier. However, his timings for the lings was a bit off and he took a lot of damage, putting him at a disadvantage. Major followed up his highly successful hellion harass with single banshee harass. This follow up is fairly popular and is rather macro oriented. The idea is that there is no tech cost for the banshee; everything necessary for banshee production is already there. The tech lab is going to be used for stim. The starport is going to be used for medivac production. But if you use the starport and the techlab for a short period, you only need to spend 150/100 for a banshee. This is 250 units of resources. A standard TvZ build doesn't need a heavy gas count at this period, so the gas cost isn't significant. The banshee goes out and can guarantee a couple of drone kills without dying. It is just a very minor harass, typically. The idea is that scv production is limited compared to zerg drone production. Shaving a couple drones here and there will add up, keeping the terran at an ok position against the zerg. Shave a bit more than needed with some good maneuvering and tactics, and then you're looking at a slight economic advantage against zerg. Furthermore, the single banshee isn't bad later on. It can continue harassment until mutalisks come out. If you keep it around, it does some nice dps, and it can delay a 3rd for a little bit. Banshee comes in, and Destiny only has one queen, with no creep spread between the main and nat. ZvT builds typically involve hatch-first with 2 early queens. You get enough energy to drop one creep tumor before you need to spend the rest of the energy for larva injects. That one creep tumor will make its way from the main, connect the natural, and then make its way out or, more usefully, connect creep towards a potential 3rd. For a map like tald'arim, you can get a nice creep spread to the 3rd by the time you want to take it, making it safer against harass. That main-to-nat creep connection is specifically for queens to defend against drops and banshees. Queens are actually very good AA units. Banshee harass and drop harass can be very deadly and difficult to deal with without this creep spread. Destiny had only one queen at his main, and no creep spread. That banshee harass turned from what typically is just minor, but steady harass, into something more significant. Along with all the drones lost to the hellions, the damage done by the banshee was devastating. By this time, it was Major's game to lose. So long as he didn't make any critical mistake, or get massively outplayed in some way, he was going to win the game.
Major's push was just him playing as he is supposed to. If it got defended, he would have several more shots left available.
Been a while since I've seen a quality post about a series in the SC2 forums.
Major's just a levels above Destiny. Major's one of the notable foreign progamers, famous for practicing hard and his mechanics, whereas Destiny, although his stream and playstyle is entertaining, is just a high-level ladder player and haven't shown important results in major tournaments yet. While I think Destiny could improve to become a major player in tournaments, he still needs more refinement IMO.
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I don't think that I've ever heard more asinine comments from a "pro" than what I heard on Destiny's stream tonight.
He said that he doesn't think that he should go one build and his opponent can go one build and he automatically loses because of the build choice. Um...are you serious? That's what a strategy game is. Why does he think that players have to know multiple builds? This isn't an RPG where you level up one build and grow it continuously and the person with the best build wins. Wagering chances and incorporating scouting is all part of STRATEGY. What he's describing is the antithesis of strategy.
He said that with his infestor build (the only build he every really does) he could win every time if he had maphack against the terran. Um...the ability to ingame transition on the fly and scout is all part of the build you do. You have to weigh the strengths and weaknesses of everything and the revelation that your LATEGAME build could win if you knew what kind of early game exploit he is going to punish you with is pretty fucking obvious.
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I figured it was pretty obvious Major was a better player than Destiny. gg wp etc.
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On August 25 2011 14:50 wats0n wrote: I don't think that I've ever heard more asinine comments from a "pro" than what I heard on Destiny's stream tonight.
He said that he doesn't think that he should go one build and his opponent can go one build and he automatically loses because of the build choice. Um...are you serious? That's what a strategy game is. Why does he think that players have to know multiple builds? This isn't an RPG where you level up one build and grow it continuously and the person with the best build wins. Wagering chances and incorporating scouting is all part of STRATEGY. What he's describing is the antithesis of strategy.
He said that with his infestor build (the only build he every really does) he could win every time if he had maphack against the terran. Um...the ability to ingame transition on the fly and scout is all part of the build you do. You have to weigh the strengths and weaknesses of everything and the revelation that your LATEGAME build could win if you knew what kind of early game exploit he is going to punish you with is pretty fucking obvious.
All he said is that his build is solid.
He's saying his build doesn't have BO losses, which I think is the correct assumption to have when you're coming up with your own strategy. You want to try to adapt based on what you can scout, you don't want to throw out an entire build immediately just because you found a certain variation hard. You want to be able to find a way to compete with that variation in the realm of still using your strategy.
Actually what YOU'VE said is the antithesis of strategy. Strategy is all about trying to solve the game, which implies that there's 1 best way to play, and you can play that way every single game, like a float chart that may have variations based on what your opponent is doing, but it's still the same flow chart, and for this you obviously need to scout.
What you're talking about isn't strategy it's just a game of rock paper scissors.
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Destiny;s problem with his build is that it doesn't get the infestor out for a while, which is one of the only two units that can handle large clumps of marines. The other ofcourse is the baneling, but with his infestor build he doesnt get them and so is vulnerable to early marine agression, because all he has are 1/1 lings, and usually the attack hits before the upgrades finish
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On August 25 2011 14:59 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 14:50 wats0n wrote: I don't think that I've ever heard more asinine comments from a "pro" than what I heard on Destiny's stream tonight.
He said that he doesn't think that he should go one build and his opponent can go one build and he automatically loses because of the build choice. Um...are you serious? That's what a strategy game is. Why does he think that players have to know multiple builds? This isn't an RPG where you level up one build and grow it continuously and the person with the best build wins. Wagering chances and incorporating scouting is all part of STRATEGY. What he's describing is the antithesis of strategy.
He said that with his infestor build (the only build he every really does) he could win every time if he had maphack against the terran. Um...the ability to ingame transition on the fly and scout is all part of the build you do. You have to weigh the strengths and weaknesses of everything and the revelation that your LATEGAME build could win if you knew what kind of early game exploit he is going to punish you with is pretty fucking obvious. All he said is that his build is solid. He's saying his build doesn't have BO losses, which I think is the correct assumption to have when you're coming up with your own strategy. You want to try to adapt based on what you can scout, you don't want to throw out an entire build immediately just because you found a certain variation hard. You want to be able to find a way to compete with that variation in the realm of still using your strategy. Actually what YOU'VE said is the antithesis of strategy. Strategy is all about trying to solve the game, which implies that there's 1 best way to play, and you can play that way every single game, like a float chart that may have variations based on what your opponent is doing, but it's still the same flow chart, and for this you obviously need to scout. What you're talking about isn't strategy it's just a game of rock paper scissors.
Ever played a game called poker? Strategy and chance coexist my friend.
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On August 25 2011 14:59 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 14:50 wats0n wrote: I don't think that I've ever heard more asinine comments from a "pro" than what I heard on Destiny's stream tonight.
He said that he doesn't think that he should go one build and his opponent can go one build and he automatically loses because of the build choice. Um...are you serious? That's what a strategy game is. Why does he think that players have to know multiple builds? This isn't an RPG where you level up one build and grow it continuously and the person with the best build wins. Wagering chances and incorporating scouting is all part of STRATEGY. What he's describing is the antithesis of strategy.
He said that with his infestor build (the only build he every really does) he could win every time if he had maphack against the terran. Um...the ability to ingame transition on the fly and scout is all part of the build you do. You have to weigh the strengths and weaknesses of everything and the revelation that your LATEGAME build could win if you knew what kind of early game exploit he is going to punish you with is pretty fucking obvious. All he said is that his build is solid. He's saying his build doesn't have BO losses, which I think is the correct assumption to have when you're coming up with your own strategy. You want to try to adapt based on what you can scout, you don't want to throw out an entire build immediately just because you found a certain variation hard. You want to be able to find a way to compete with that variation in the realm of still using your strategy. Actually what YOU'VE said is the antithesis of strategy. Strategy is all about trying to solve the game, which implies that there's 1 best way to play, and you can play that way every single game, like a float chart that may have variations based on what your opponent is doing, but it's still the same flow chart, and for this you obviously need to scout. What you're talking about isn't strategy it's just a game of rock paper scissors.
Wait, what? What RTS has ever had one single flow chart? You don't play the game, you play your opponent. Destiny's goal is to get infestors out at around the 11:30 mark. Failing that, he loses. Nothing about his play style points to this multi-tiered, layered, play style that you are suggesting. Destiny's build is extremely greedy. He tries to skip to the mid-late game to make up for short coming in his own ability.
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On August 25 2011 14:59 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 14:50 wats0n wrote: I don't think that I've ever heard more asinine comments from a "pro" than what I heard on Destiny's stream tonight.
He said that he doesn't think that he should go one build and his opponent can go one build and he automatically loses because of the build choice. Um...are you serious? That's what a strategy game is. Why does he think that players have to know multiple builds? This isn't an RPG where you level up one build and grow it continuously and the person with the best build wins. Wagering chances and incorporating scouting is all part of STRATEGY. What he's describing is the antithesis of strategy.
He said that with his infestor build (the only build he every really does) he could win every time if he had maphack against the terran. Um...the ability to ingame transition on the fly and scout is all part of the build you do. You have to weigh the strengths and weaknesses of everything and the revelation that your LATEGAME build could win if you knew what kind of early game exploit he is going to punish you with is pretty fucking obvious. Actually what YOU'VE said is the antithesis of strategy. Strategy is all about trying to solve the game, which implies that there's 1 best way to play, and you can play that way every single game, like a float chart that may have variations based on what your opponent is doing, but it's still the same flow chart, and for this you obviously need to scout. What you're talking about isn't strategy it's just a game of rock paper scissors.
What? All the plans that you take to arrive at victory is strategy. You can use plans that are inherently disadvantaged against other plans and that doesn't mean there was no strategy. What you said makes no sense.
If you make a conscious decision beforehand to go for lategame then that's your strategy. The opponent risks losing if he doesn't beat you early and you risk losing early game. That's what strategy is all about. One build that is predetermined to win because it's leveled up so far is not strategy at all.
And this is also not taking into consideration builds that allow for adaptability to early game scouting or deciding your build based upon scouting. Destiny's build is predetermined. Again, that's not strategy.
He should be strategically sacrificing resources to gain information and make tactical decisions to improve his position in the fight.
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On August 25 2011 15:10 jenzebubble wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 14:59 Kiarip wrote:On August 25 2011 14:50 wats0n wrote: I don't think that I've ever heard more asinine comments from a "pro" than what I heard on Destiny's stream tonight.
He said that he doesn't think that he should go one build and his opponent can go one build and he automatically loses because of the build choice. Um...are you serious? That's what a strategy game is. Why does he think that players have to know multiple builds? This isn't an RPG where you level up one build and grow it continuously and the person with the best build wins. Wagering chances and incorporating scouting is all part of STRATEGY. What he's describing is the antithesis of strategy.
He said that with his infestor build (the only build he every really does) he could win every time if he had maphack against the terran. Um...the ability to ingame transition on the fly and scout is all part of the build you do. You have to weigh the strengths and weaknesses of everything and the revelation that your LATEGAME build could win if you knew what kind of early game exploit he is going to punish you with is pretty fucking obvious. All he said is that his build is solid. He's saying his build doesn't have BO losses, which I think is the correct assumption to have when you're coming up with your own strategy. You want to try to adapt based on what you can scout, you don't want to throw out an entire build immediately just because you found a certain variation hard. You want to be able to find a way to compete with that variation in the realm of still using your strategy. Actually what YOU'VE said is the antithesis of strategy. Strategy is all about trying to solve the game, which implies that there's 1 best way to play, and you can play that way every single game, like a float chart that may have variations based on what your opponent is doing, but it's still the same flow chart, and for this you obviously need to scout. What you're talking about isn't strategy it's just a game of rock paper scissors. Wait, what? What RTS has ever had one single flow chart? You don't play the game, you play your opponent. Destiny's goal is to get infestors out at around the 11:30 mark. Failing that, he loses. Nothing about his play style points to this multi-tiered, layered, play style that you are suggesting. Destiny's build is extremely greedy. He tries to skip to the mid-late game to make up for short coming in his own ability.
That's a guide to becoming a terrible player that doesn't have understanding of the actual game.
If you want to do a strategy you try to make it work against different variation. A strategy IS a flow chart. There's a bunch of strategy games that are solved that have flow charts or algorithms to winning.
Understanding the game means that you know what leads to what in a certain situation.
Obviously SC2 is a complicated game and not solved, maybe not solvable, but when you're developing your own strategies and play style you're attempting to solve the game. When Destiny says that his strategy doesn't straight up lose to some other strategy he's saying that his position is winnable, meaning that it's a solid playstyle that doesn't rely on coinflips.
Ever played a game called poker? Strategy and chance coexist my friend.
Poker is a game of mathematics and mind games. You can say mind game is part of strategy but ti isn't. Mind game is meta-game. A strategy is in-game plan. they're the absolute opposites.
What? All the plans that you take to arrive at victory is strategy. You can use plans that are inherently disadvantaged against other plans and that doesn't mean there was no strategy. What you said makes no sense.
If you make a conscious decision beforehand to go for lategame then that's your strategy. The opponent risks losing if he doesn't beat you early and you risk losing early game. That's what strategy is all about. One build that is predetermined to win because it's leveled up so far is not strategy at all.
And this is also not taking into consideration builds that allow for adaptability to early game scouting or deciding your build based upon scouting. Destiny's build is predetermined. Again, that's not strategy.
He should be strategically sacrificing resources to gain information and make tactical decisions to improve his position in the fight.
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A large portion of his game-plan is predetermined but that's caz he believes it's strong. First of all I doubt it's completely predetermiend because if terran goes supply CC supply CC I'm sure he will adapt into just killing his opponent.
A lot of terrans will go supply-rax before they even scout their opponent, and it's considered just a standardly solid way to play that you don't need to sacrifice anything in order to see what your opponent is doing in order to justify this decision. As the game gets moer figured out larger and larger portions of play become less reliant on scouting and more set-in-stone-solid, destiny thinks that his opening with investment for the late-game is a solid way to play. I think if he's come a long way in being able to defend this it's completely illogical for him to all of a sudden throw it out of the window because he lost a single series. It's still very much possible for him to go back and see what he needs to do differently, and still have a good game against early aggression builds that he previously lost to.
That's strategy. What you were talking about isn't it's meta-gaming and it's only a good idea when you already have a good understanding of the game, or you know you have no chance to beat your opponent straight up.
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On August 25 2011 12:58 LicH. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:51 OscarN wrote: Let me guess, destiny did a infestor two base, all four games? *tried to do two base infestor :D From what I see with that style it really is similar to the protoss deathball that was murdering zergs for awhile. If you can get the near perfect zerg army of infestors and broodlords up you have a pretty sick good army, but there is no way the way destiny does it will work. You have to step by step move towards that army starting with armies of other units, expanding, etc, else you get killed by timing pushes. No one should ever play a pure macro game against destiny style, you should always smash it in the beginning because it is gimmicky, reckless, and weak to early pushes. The style only really seems to work when opponents are not used to it IMO or destiny pulls a miracle defense.
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Belgium38331 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +On August 25 2011 13:04 Frozenserpent wrote: It's true that terran early game all-in pushes can be very hard to deal with, but that wasn't the case here. These pushes were simply not all-in whatsoever. If destiny had a good defense, major simply would have slowly retreated back, and have a good economy behind it.
Let's look at the games.
In those games, he typically got his 3rd up and running while he pushed out. Major gets his 3rd up and running before Destiny gets a secure 3rd.
Suppose Destiny destroys the push, but trades resources at a 4:5 ratio. IE Destiny loses 4000 resources worth of units for every 5000 major loses in his push. What would the situation be then? Destiny would actually still be drastically behind. Major had 74 workers at the end of the last game. 74 is pretty much the most amount of workers you would ever want at once, especially as terran. Meanwhile, Destiny had far, far less workers.
Those pushes were very regular pressure pushes in a typical TvZ build. They are fundamental to playing TvZ in a heavy macro style. But, in those games, they ended the game.
It's not because Destiny is so bad he can't handle regular pressure builds. It's because Destiny was already far, far behind by the time the pushes came out. Destiny would need to crush that push in order to have a good chance to win the game.
So let's examine what happened earlier in the games, that caused Major to be at such an overwhelming advantage.
Specifically, let's look at the last build that Major does, which I am quite familiar with on both sides of the coin. Major opens with a hellion expand, which is a very good opening. In fact it's one of my favorite TvZ openings. You see, there are many different kinds of hellion openings for T. We've seen the Slayers terrans favor blue flame hellion openings with drop. There are bfh hellion openings with a heavy count of bfh. These builds typically try to inflict massive amounts of drone damage. At the very least, they need to inflict a decent amount of economic damage or force a large enough response to make the opening worth it. The reactor hellion opening, however, is a different breed. What typically happens is you build 2-6 hellions, which you will send out, and while they are out, you are getting your 2nd up and running. The CC is actually rather fast. An important trait about this build is that there isn't a heavy commitment that must be paid for with drone blood. So you build 4-6 hellions. Even if you just snipe a single drone, you are really in a good position. You are not behind if you fail to do economic damage, provided that you do not lose those hellions for free. Those 4-6 hellions are the price for map control. You will restrict creep spread past their nat. You will prevent their lings from having free reign over the map. You will force some kind of response, whether it is a spine crawler or more lings. In fact, without the spine crawler, you can probably pick off a few lings for free. Any economic damage you inflict is merely extra. The important point is to not commit your hellions unless you think you have a good chance of inflicting damage. And that was the position Major found himself in game 4. One big mistake Destiny was timing. He did build a spine crawler, but he didn't have a 2nd queen out, and in addition, the spine crawler was a few seconds too slow. Furthermore, he had a rather low initial ling count. A great way to deal with a reactor hellion is to have a one spinecrawler up, and a handful of speedlings and a queen along with it. Destiny only had 1 queen, and it was at his main. His lings, which, iirc, was something like 2 pairs, isn't enough to stop a hellion runby. A ling/spinecrawler defense against hellion runbies works by zoning them out. They can't attempt a runby because it becomes incredibly risky. Just a handful of lings will trap the hellions, impeding their movements. Just a couple seconds of delaying the hellions will do enough damage to the runby hellions to render them very manageable and simple to deal with. Roaches were used by Destiny in previous games, and may seem like an obvious solution, but roaches aren't the ideal counter, and, in fact, I think they're quite a poor counter. If you make 2 roaches to fend off 4 hellions, you're investing 200 minerals in a roach warren, AND 200 resources of roaches, which is equivalent to the 400 resources sunk in hellions, but you don't get any map control with those roaches, and hellions add more to terran midgame than zerg adds to zerg midgame. Another aspect to keep in mind is that to get the 2 roaches out for the hellion timing, you have to have the roach warren building rather early. At that stage of zerg's economy, the bottleneck for drone production is minerals. In fact, many zergs get an early creep tumor around that time because they have excess larva if they have 2 queens and 2 hatches. Wait just a bit longer, and it isn't so bad to throw down a last minute spine crawler. Destiny, you see, doesn't have a "standard" ZvT opener. The standard openers involve a fast zergling speed upgrade. This makes it much easier to deal with hellion and marine pressure. This also gives zerg an advantage in map control. This is because Destiny doesn't have a standard style of ZvT. As we all know, he likes heavy infestor play. He wants to get to the infestor phase as soon as possible, and it is there that he can be comfortable enough to get his 3rd, harass, inflict damage, defend, tech, and get set up for the fast broodlord/infestor push. You notice, in the games before the last game, Destiny delayed his zergling speed upgrade. There are a few very good reasons why standard ZvT involves a rather fast speed upgrade. For one, marine stutter step micro makes marines very efficient against slow zerglings. With speed upgrade, marines don't become super efficient against zerglings again until the unit counts gets bigger or until stim is available. Heavy marine pressure has very little risk for the terran player if the zerg has no speed upgrade. The zerg can't punish the terran for poking in with the marines, and the terran can poke in and get free units this way, unless zerg invests in a couple spines. And there are other good reasons for faster ling speed, such as reapers and hellions. Naturally, Major, who's regularly employed reaper and hellion openings in the past, sought fit to punish Destiny for this hole in his early game. The hellions and the reapers are not unusual builds. They would do quite fine against a standard ZvT build, even when the zerg player is fully prepared. If zerg gets late speed, however, they suddenly become very, very deadly. This explains a lot of why Destiny lost games 2 and 3. And the thing that absolutely convinced Destiny that he had to change his opening build game 4, was that Major didn't need to sacrifice anything significant for that capability. He was playing a TvZ build that is very solid and will match up just fine against a solid ZvT build. So Destiny had to adjust game 4 and get his speed upgrade earlier. However, his timings for the lings was a bit off and he took a lot of damage, putting him at a disadvantage. Major followed up his highly successful hellion harass with single banshee harass. This follow up is fairly popular and is rather macro oriented. The idea is that there is no tech cost for the banshee; everything necessary for banshee production is already there. The tech lab is going to be used for stim. The starport is going to be used for medivac production. But if you use the starport and the techlab for a short period, you only need to spend 150/100 for a banshee. This is 250 units of resources. A standard TvZ build doesn't need a heavy gas count at this period, so the gas cost isn't significant. The banshee goes out and can guarantee a couple of drone kills without dying. It is just a very minor harass, typically. The idea is that scv production is limited compared to zerg drone production. Shaving a couple drones here and there will add up, keeping the terran at an ok position against the zerg. Shave a bit more than needed with some good maneuvering and tactics, and then you're looking at a slight economic advantage against zerg. Furthermore, the single banshee isn't bad later on. It can continue harassment until mutalisks come out. If you keep it around, it does some nice dps, and it can delay a 3rd for a little bit. Banshee comes in, and Destiny only has one queen, with no creep spread between the main and nat. ZvT builds typically involve hatch-first with 2 early queens. You get enough energy to drop one creep tumor before you need to spend the rest of the energy for larva injects. That one creep tumor will make its way from the main, connect the natural, and then make its way out or, more usefully, connect creep towards a potential 3rd. For a map like tald'arim, you can get a nice creep spread to the 3rd by the time you want to take it, making it safer against harass. That main-to-nat creep connection is specifically for queens to defend against drops and banshees. Queens are actually very good AA units. Banshee harass and drop harass can be very deadly and difficult to deal with without this creep spread. Destiny had only one queen at his main, and no creep spread. That banshee harass turned from what typically is just minor, but steady harass, into something more significant. Along with all the drones lost to the hellions, the damage done by the banshee was devastating. By this time, it was Major's game to lose. So long as he didn't make any critical mistake, or get massively outplayed in some way, he was going to win the game.
Major's push was just him playing as he is supposed to. If it got defended, he would have several more shots left available.
Nice write-up. Seems like Destiny didn't handle the early game properly. Great to see a post in here that isn't tainted by all the Destiny love/hate.
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On August 25 2011 15:23 Maghetti wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:58 LicH. wrote:On August 25 2011 12:51 OscarN wrote: Let me guess, destiny did a infestor two base, all four games? *tried to do two base infestor :D From what I see with that style it really is similar to the protoss deathball that was murdering zergs for awhile. If you can get the near perfect zerg army of infestors and broodlords up you have a pretty sick good army, but there is no way the way destiny does it will work. You have to step by step move towards that army starting with armies of other units, expanding, etc, else you get killed by timing pushes. No one should ever play a pure macro game against destiny style, you should always smash it in the beginning because it is gimmicky, reckless, and weak to early pushes. The style only really seems to work when opponents are not used to it IMO or destiny pulls a miracle defense.
That is exactly what I've always thought, he plays it very deathball style which is exactly what many zerg's cry about for protoss. I find it kind of ironic.
Nonetheless, I wonder why Destiny's style is so unique compared to other zergs? is it because of it's weakness to early timing pushes?
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Until now I had thought that Destiny had an endgame. He was waiting out macro play and light harassment for his mid to late window to win. But if he thinks that he can cut corners (skip roaches, lings, mutas) and still should be able to beat aggressive early siege tank pushes with his late game strategy then he's a fucking retard. Everything about this game is using your resources to defeat your opponent and that involves taking risks.
He wants to hold off siege tanks without roaches, lings, or mutas but he also wants to tech fast to infestor broodlord. In what universe does that make sense? What would be the point of the game if that were possible?
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On August 25 2011 15:28 wats0n wrote: Until now I had thought that Destiny had an endgame. He was waiting out macro play and light harassment for his mid to late window to win. But if he thinks that he can cut corners (skip roaches, lings, mutas) and still should be able to beat aggressive early siege tank pushes with his late game strategy then he's a fucking retard. Everything about this game is using your resources to defeat your opponent and that involves taking risks.
Just because there are risks doesn't mean that there aren't rock-solid things that can be done regardless of what your opponent is doing.
edit: once again you're not playing against an opponent who can just do w.e the fuck he wants. he's playing the same game as you the same rules apply to him as to you if you can apply deduction and reasoning to information that you gather from him you can regularly cut a ton of corners.
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On August 25 2011 15:29 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 15:28 wats0n wrote: Until now I had thought that Destiny had an endgame. He was waiting out macro play and light harassment for his mid to late window to win. But if he thinks that he can cut corners (skip roaches, lings, mutas) and still should be able to beat aggressive early siege tank pushes with his late game strategy then he's a fucking retard. Everything about this game is using your resources to defeat your opponent and that involves taking risks. Just because there are risks doesn't mean that there aren't rock-solid things that can be done regardless of what your opponent is doing.
Duh. That's my argument. You need to understand the deconstructed meaning of his build. He's making a decision to skip all early game defensive units to get to a lategame winning strategy. That's he plan. You can't do that and at the same time defend siege pushes then when it doesn't work start whining for hours on your stream about the state of the game and how your build should be able to do both.
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Uh not to put down destiny but you cant expect to play T to play a macro game after they get a silly number of reaper or harass kills. Once you drag the worker count down to terrans level you can just lean on the zerg to stop his economy from outpacing your own and then smash them with a push. Picking taldarim as the last map wasnt the greatest choice either ):
Major played really well that series though so I guess hes been practicing alot and is ready for MLG. Whereas destiny still has alot of work to be done before he reaches majors level of refinement.
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On August 25 2011 15:32 wats0n wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 15:29 Kiarip wrote:On August 25 2011 15:28 wats0n wrote: Until now I had thought that Destiny had an endgame. He was waiting out macro play and light harassment for his mid to late window to win. But if he thinks that he can cut corners (skip roaches, lings, mutas) and still should be able to beat aggressive early siege tank pushes with his late game strategy then he's a fucking retard. Everything about this game is using your resources to defeat your opponent and that involves taking risks. Just because there are risks doesn't mean that there aren't rock-solid things that can be done regardless of what your opponent is doing. Duh. That's my argument. You need to understand the deconstructed meaning of his build. He's making a decision to skip all early game defensive units to get to a lategame winning strategy. That's he plan. You can't do that and at the same time defend siege pushes then when it doesn't work start whining for hours on your stream about the state of the game and how your build should be able to do both.
Well if he had perfect info he wouldn't have skipped all defense
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On August 25 2011 15:35 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 15:32 wats0n wrote:On August 25 2011 15:29 Kiarip wrote:On August 25 2011 15:28 wats0n wrote: Until now I had thought that Destiny had an endgame. He was waiting out macro play and light harassment for his mid to late window to win. But if he thinks that he can cut corners (skip roaches, lings, mutas) and still should be able to beat aggressive early siege tank pushes with his late game strategy then he's a fucking retard. Everything about this game is using your resources to defeat your opponent and that involves taking risks. Just because there are risks doesn't mean that there aren't rock-solid things that can be done regardless of what your opponent is doing. Duh. That's my argument. You need to understand the deconstructed meaning of his build. He's making a decision to skip all early game defensive units to get to a lategame winning strategy. That's he plan. You can't do that and at the same time defend siege pushes then when it doesn't work start whining for hours on your stream about the state of the game and how your build should be able to do both. Well if he had perfect info he wouldn't have skipped all defense
Yes, if he somehow had a way to perfectly deduce what the terran was doing the terran would have no way of stopping his corner cutting to lategame units. And what a wonderful game that would be.
Just think, everyone going ling, bling, muta and delaying broodlords until later is only doing it because they're not dumb enough to have no early game defense and publicly stream that for the entire world to see.
And just so we don't wander to far from the strategy debate. You have to use units to gain information however you can. Strategically sacrificing overlords is part of the game.
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On August 25 2011 15:35 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 15:32 wats0n wrote:On August 25 2011 15:29 Kiarip wrote:On August 25 2011 15:28 wats0n wrote: Until now I had thought that Destiny had an endgame. He was waiting out macro play and light harassment for his mid to late window to win. But if he thinks that he can cut corners (skip roaches, lings, mutas) and still should be able to beat aggressive early siege tank pushes with his late game strategy then he's a fucking retard. Everything about this game is using your resources to defeat your opponent and that involves taking risks. Just because there are risks doesn't mean that there aren't rock-solid things that can be done regardless of what your opponent is doing. Duh. That's my argument. You need to understand the deconstructed meaning of his build. He's making a decision to skip all early game defensive units to get to a lategame winning strategy. That's he plan. You can't do that and at the same time defend siege pushes then when it doesn't work start whining for hours on your stream about the state of the game and how your build should be able to do both. Well if he had perfect info he wouldn't have skipped all defense He will never have perfect info but if he did and saw the early pushes coming then he would be forced to play a normal game and not be able to rush to the mid game. You can't just skip the mid game. People make lings and banelings and mutas, etc for a reason. Either he makes those units and can't rush to infestors or he rushes to infestors and early pushes will kill him.
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Major 3-0, major's got the artosis blessing man
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On August 25 2011 15:43 Maghetti wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 15:35 Kiarip wrote:On August 25 2011 15:32 wats0n wrote:On August 25 2011 15:29 Kiarip wrote:On August 25 2011 15:28 wats0n wrote: Until now I had thought that Destiny had an endgame. He was waiting out macro play and light harassment for his mid to late window to win. But if he thinks that he can cut corners (skip roaches, lings, mutas) and still should be able to beat aggressive early siege tank pushes with his late game strategy then he's a fucking retard. Everything about this game is using your resources to defeat your opponent and that involves taking risks. Just because there are risks doesn't mean that there aren't rock-solid things that can be done regardless of what your opponent is doing. Duh. That's my argument. You need to understand the deconstructed meaning of his build. He's making a decision to skip all early game defensive units to get to a lategame winning strategy. That's he plan. You can't do that and at the same time defend siege pushes then when it doesn't work start whining for hours on your stream about the state of the game and how your build should be able to do both. Well if he had perfect info he wouldn't have skipped all defense He will never have perfect info but if he did and saw the early pushes coming then he would be forced to play a normal game and not be able to rush to the mid game. You can't just skip the mid game. People make lings and banelings and mutas, etc for a reason. Either he makes those units and can't rush to infestors or he rushes to infestors and early pushes will kill him.
you can defend some stuff with infestors. There's still some stuff to be solved, being stubborn with your strategies once in a while isn't a bad thing
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On August 25 2011 15:49 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 15:43 Maghetti wrote:On August 25 2011 15:35 Kiarip wrote:On August 25 2011 15:32 wats0n wrote:On August 25 2011 15:29 Kiarip wrote:On August 25 2011 15:28 wats0n wrote: Until now I had thought that Destiny had an endgame. He was waiting out macro play and light harassment for his mid to late window to win. But if he thinks that he can cut corners (skip roaches, lings, mutas) and still should be able to beat aggressive early siege tank pushes with his late game strategy then he's a fucking retard. Everything about this game is using your resources to defeat your opponent and that involves taking risks. Just because there are risks doesn't mean that there aren't rock-solid things that can be done regardless of what your opponent is doing. Duh. That's my argument. You need to understand the deconstructed meaning of his build. He's making a decision to skip all early game defensive units to get to a lategame winning strategy. That's he plan. You can't do that and at the same time defend siege pushes then when it doesn't work start whining for hours on your stream about the state of the game and how your build should be able to do both. Well if he had perfect info he wouldn't have skipped all defense He will never have perfect info but if he did and saw the early pushes coming then he would be forced to play a normal game and not be able to rush to the mid game. You can't just skip the mid game. People make lings and banelings and mutas, etc for a reason. Either he makes those units and can't rush to infestors or he rushes to infestors and early pushes will kill him. you can defend some stuff with infestors. There's still some stuff to be solved, being stubborn with your strategies once in a while isn't a bad thing You can defend great with infestors but I never said otherwise. I said you will not ever get infestors up when you are dying to timing pushes before infestors are up. You either make defensive units, zergling, baneling, etc and delay infestor tech to a more normal time, or you rush to them and die before you ever have them, or if you do manage to get some up, not enough to defend.
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On August 25 2011 16:03 Maghetti wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 15:49 Kiarip wrote:On August 25 2011 15:43 Maghetti wrote:On August 25 2011 15:35 Kiarip wrote:On August 25 2011 15:32 wats0n wrote:On August 25 2011 15:29 Kiarip wrote:On August 25 2011 15:28 wats0n wrote: Until now I had thought that Destiny had an endgame. He was waiting out macro play and light harassment for his mid to late window to win. But if he thinks that he can cut corners (skip roaches, lings, mutas) and still should be able to beat aggressive early siege tank pushes with his late game strategy then he's a fucking retard. Everything about this game is using your resources to defeat your opponent and that involves taking risks. Just because there are risks doesn't mean that there aren't rock-solid things that can be done regardless of what your opponent is doing. Duh. That's my argument. You need to understand the deconstructed meaning of his build. He's making a decision to skip all early game defensive units to get to a lategame winning strategy. That's he plan. You can't do that and at the same time defend siege pushes then when it doesn't work start whining for hours on your stream about the state of the game and how your build should be able to do both. Well if he had perfect info he wouldn't have skipped all defense He will never have perfect info but if he did and saw the early pushes coming then he would be forced to play a normal game and not be able to rush to the mid game. You can't just skip the mid game. People make lings and banelings and mutas, etc for a reason. Either he makes those units and can't rush to infestors or he rushes to infestors and early pushes will kill him. you can defend some stuff with infestors. There's still some stuff to be solved, being stubborn with your strategies once in a while isn't a bad thing You can defend great with infestors but I never said otherwise. I said you will not ever get infestors up when you are dying to timing pushes before infestors are up. You either make defensive units, zergling, baneling, etc and delay infestor tech to a more normal time, or you rush to them and die before you ever have them, or if you do manage to get some up, not enough to defend. You've got it man! Infestors are great, but by the time you have them, you would have died 10 times over
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On August 25 2011 15:45 xza wrote: Major 3-0, major's got the artosis blessing man
No, it's 3-1.
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On August 26 2011 00:41 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 15:45 xza wrote: Major 3-0, major's got the artosis blessing man No, it's 3-1. Probably should have been 3-0 tbh, destiny got pretty damn lucky catching 10 vikings with fungal when they poked out for half a second. Major had been denying the 5th and 6th and just killed destiny's third, and most likely would have won the game if he survived that final attack.
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Its not the late or non-existings lingspeed that made him loose to the helion into banshee. Its the fact that he only hade 1 queen.
The usual way to defend is that when you see the helions coming, move your workers away from the exp into the main, and block the ramp with 2 queens; as you wait for 1 or 2 spines to finish. You also know that the usual follow up is banshee, if uncertain you could try to scout for it; but it will be banshees without cloak and in preparatin you get a third queen; possibly a forth.
Do you know how I now? I learnt it from watching Destinys stream way back when he was still experimenting with diffrent builds. I dont know why he didnt do that know, if it was a misstake, bad scouting or just a BO-diffrence that made it impossible. But im quite sure he can handle that strat withouth wasting gas on ling speed until he wants to.
The reaper would be harder to handle withouth speed, but a 2nd queen would definately help, its simply ridiculous that a reaper gets to kill 7 drones in the first harass and then gets away alive. Let one chase, and place the other among the workers and the reaper wont be able to do much harm. Not sure about the timing of that though; maybe its to early for a 2nd queen to defend that initial harass. But have the 1 queen among the drones and let slowlings give chase on creep should work aswell.
Basically I feel that there are small tweaks, in addition to play and scout better, that he can do to fix this "hole" in his strategy, its not broken. A 2nd queen earlier (and creep between bases), better scouting. Although I dont have Destinys sharp analytical skill so im sure he probably have some ideas of improvement allready; and hopefully we will see him doing well at Raleigh.
I love when Destiny gets a real beating, because he always comes out of it better than ever; he needs to be manhandled from time to time to challenge himself to be better. And that is why I hope he joins a good team in the near future; some good manhandling can only do him good.
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On August 25 2011 13:04 Frozenserpent wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:03 BlueHydra wrote:On August 25 2011 12:02 Ghoststrikes wrote:I didn't see game 1, but + Show Spoiler +Major totally outclassed destiny in games 2-4 Outclass? he just did early game pushes that every zerg has trouble with. It's true that terran early game all-in pushes can be very hard to deal with, but that wasn't the case here. These pushes were simply not all-in whatsoever. If destiny had a good defense, major simply would have slowly retreated back, and have a good economy behind it. Let's look at the games. In those games, he typically got his 3rd up and running while he pushed out. Major gets his 3rd up and running before Destiny gets a secure 3rd. Suppose Destiny destroys the push, but trades resources at a 4:5 ratio. IE Destiny loses 4000 resources worth of units for every 5000 major loses in his push. What would the situation be then? Destiny would actually still be drastically behind. Major had 74 workers at the end of the last game. 74 is pretty much the most amount of workers you would ever want at once, especially as terran. Meanwhile, Destiny had far, far less workers. Those pushes were very regular pressure pushes in a typical TvZ build. They are fundamental to playing TvZ in a heavy macro style. But, in those games, they ended the game. It's not because Destiny is so bad he can't handle regular pressure builds. It's because Destiny was already far, far behind by the time the pushes came out. Destiny would need to crush that push in order to have a good chance to win the game. So let's examine what happened earlier in the games, that caused Major to be at such an overwhelming advantage. Specifically, let's look at the last build that Major does, which I am quite familiar with on both sides of the coin. Major opens with a hellion expand, which is a very good opening. In fact it's one of my favorite TvZ openings. You see, there are many different kinds of hellion openings for T. We've seen the Slayers terrans favor blue flame hellion openings with drop. There are bfh hellion openings with a heavy count of bfh. These builds typically try to inflict massive amounts of drone damage. At the very least, they need to inflict a decent amount of economic damage or force a large enough response to make the opening worth it. The reactor hellion opening, however, is a different breed. What typically happens is you build 2-6 hellions, which you will send out, and while they are out, you are getting your 2nd up and running. The CC is actually rather fast. An important trait about this build is that there isn't a heavy commitment that must be paid for with drone blood. So you build 4-6 hellions. Even if you just snipe a single drone, you are really in a good position. You are not behind if you fail to do economic damage, provided that you do not lose those hellions for free. Those 4-6 hellions are the price for map control. You will restrict creep spread past their nat. You will prevent their lings from having free reign over the map. You will force some kind of response, whether it is a spine crawler or more lings. In fact, without the spine crawler, you can probably pick off a few lings for free. Any economic damage you inflict is merely extra. The important point is to not commit your hellions unless you think you have a good chance of inflicting damage. And that was the position Major found himself in game 4. One big mistake Destiny was timing. He did build a spine crawler, but he didn't have a 2nd queen out, and in addition, the spine crawler was a few seconds too slow. Furthermore, he had a rather low initial ling count. A great way to deal with a reactor hellion is to have a one spinecrawler up, and a handful of speedlings and a queen along with it. Destiny only had 1 queen, and it was at his main. His lings, which, iirc, was something like 2 pairs, isn't enough to stop a hellion runby. A ling/spinecrawler defense against hellion runbies works by zoning them out. They can't attempt a runby because it becomes incredibly risky. Just a handful of lings will trap the hellions, impeding their movements. Just a couple seconds of delaying the hellions will do enough damage to the runby hellions to render them very manageable and simple to deal with. Roaches were used by Destiny in previous games, and may seem like an obvious solution, but roaches aren't the ideal counter, and, in fact, I think they're quite a poor counter. If you make 2 roaches to fend off 4 hellions, you're investing 200 minerals in a roach warren, AND 200 resources of roaches, which is equivalent to the 400 resources sunk in hellions, but you don't get any map control with those roaches, and hellions add more to terran midgame than zerg adds to zerg midgame. Another aspect to keep in mind is that to get the 2 roaches out for the hellion timing, you have to have the roach warren building rather early. At that stage of zerg's economy, the bottleneck for drone production is minerals. In fact, many zergs get an early creep tumor around that time because they have excess larva if they have 2 queens and 2 hatches. Wait just a bit longer, and it isn't so bad to throw down a last minute spine crawler. Destiny, you see, doesn't have a "standard" ZvT opener. The standard openers involve a fast zergling speed upgrade. This makes it much easier to deal with hellion and marine pressure. This also gives zerg an advantage in map control. This is because Destiny doesn't have a standard style of ZvT. As we all know, he likes heavy infestor play. He wants to get to the infestor phase as soon as possible, and it is there that he can be comfortable enough to get his 3rd, harass, inflict damage, defend, tech, and get set up for the fast broodlord/infestor push. You notice, in the games before the last game, Destiny delayed his zergling speed upgrade. There are a few very good reasons why standard ZvT involves a rather fast speed upgrade. For one, marine stutter step micro makes marines very efficient against slow zerglings. With speed upgrade, marines don't become super efficient against zerglings again until the unit counts gets bigger or until stim is available. Heavy marine pressure has very little risk for the terran player if the zerg has no speed upgrade. The zerg can't punish the terran for poking in with the marines, and the terran can poke in and get free units this way, unless zerg invests in a couple spines. And there are other good reasons for faster ling speed, such as reapers and hellions. Naturally, Major, who's regularly employed reaper and hellion openings in the past, sought fit to punish Destiny for this hole in his early game. The hellions and the reapers are not unusual builds. They would do quite fine against a standard ZvT build, even when the zerg player is fully prepared. If zerg gets late speed, however, they suddenly become very, very deadly. This explains a lot of why Destiny lost games 2 and 3. And the thing that absolutely convinced Destiny that he had to change his opening build game 4, was that Major didn't need to sacrifice anything significant for that capability. He was playing a TvZ build that is very solid and will match up just fine against a solid ZvT build. So Destiny had to adjust game 4 and get his speed upgrade earlier. However, his timings for the lings was a bit off and he took a lot of damage, putting him at a disadvantage. Major followed up his highly successful hellion harass with single banshee harass. This follow up is fairly popular and is rather macro oriented. The idea is that there is no tech cost for the banshee; everything necessary for banshee production is already there. The tech lab is going to be used for stim. The starport is going to be used for medivac production. But if you use the starport and the techlab for a short period, you only need to spend 150/100 for a banshee. This is 250 units of resources. A standard TvZ build doesn't need a heavy gas count at this period, so the gas cost isn't significant. The banshee goes out and can guarantee a couple of drone kills without dying. It is just a very minor harass, typically. The idea is that scv production is limited compared to zerg drone production. Shaving a couple drones here and there will add up, keeping the terran at an ok position against the zerg. Shave a bit more than needed with some good maneuvering and tactics, and then you're looking at a slight economic advantage against zerg. Furthermore, the single banshee isn't bad later on. It can continue harassment until mutalisks come out. If you keep it around, it does some nice dps, and it can delay a 3rd for a little bit. Banshee comes in, and Destiny only has one queen, with no creep spread between the main and nat. ZvT builds typically involve hatch-first with 2 early queens. You get enough energy to drop one creep tumor before you need to spend the rest of the energy for larva injects. That one creep tumor will make its way from the main, connect the natural, and then make its way out or, more usefully, connect creep towards a potential 3rd. For a map like tald'arim, you can get a nice creep spread to the 3rd by the time you want to take it, making it safer against harass. That main-to-nat creep connection is specifically for queens to defend against drops and banshees. Queens are actually very good AA units. Banshee harass and drop harass can be very deadly and difficult to deal with without this creep spread. Destiny had only one queen at his main, and no creep spread. That banshee harass turned from what typically is just minor, but steady harass, into something more significant. Along with all the drones lost to the hellions, the damage done by the banshee was devastating. By this time, it was Major's game to lose. So long as he didn't make any critical mistake, or get massively outplayed in some way, he was going to win the game. Major's push was just him playing as he is supposed to. If it got defended, he would have several more shots left available.
I was going to comment about the games but after ive seen this post I think there's nothing much to add.
Best post so far ive seen in TL, congratulations.
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On August 25 2011 13:04 Frozenserpent wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:03 BlueHydra wrote:On August 25 2011 12:02 Ghoststrikes wrote:I didn't see game 1, but + Show Spoiler +Major totally outclassed destiny in games 2-4 Outclass? he just did early game pushes that every zerg has trouble with. It's true that terran early game all-in pushes can be very hard to deal with, but that wasn't the case here. These pushes were simply not all-in whatsoever. If destiny had a good defense, major simply would have slowly retreated back, and have a good economy behind it. Let's look at the games. In those games, he typically got his 3rd up and running while he pushed out. Major gets his 3rd up and running before Destiny gets a secure 3rd. Suppose Destiny destroys the push, but trades resources at a 4:5 ratio. IE Destiny loses 4000 resources worth of units for every 5000 major loses in his push. What would the situation be then? Destiny would actually still be drastically behind. Major had 74 workers at the end of the last game. 74 is pretty much the most amount of workers you would ever want at once, especially as terran. Meanwhile, Destiny had far, far less workers. Those pushes were very regular pressure pushes in a typical TvZ build. They are fundamental to playing TvZ in a heavy macro style. But, in those games, they ended the game. It's not because Destiny is so bad he can't handle regular pressure builds. It's because Destiny was already far, far behind by the time the pushes came out. Destiny would need to crush that push in order to have a good chance to win the game. So let's examine what happened earlier in the games, that caused Major to be at such an overwhelming advantage. Specifically, let's look at the last build that Major does, which I am quite familiar with on both sides of the coin. Major opens with a hellion expand, which is a very good opening. In fact it's one of my favorite TvZ openings. You see, there are many different kinds of hellion openings for T. We've seen the Slayers terrans favor blue flame hellion openings with drop. There are bfh hellion openings with a heavy count of bfh. These builds typically try to inflict massive amounts of drone damage. At the very least, they need to inflict a decent amount of economic damage or force a large enough response to make the opening worth it. The reactor hellion opening, however, is a different breed. What typically happens is you build 2-6 hellions, which you will send out, and while they are out, you are getting your 2nd up and running. The CC is actually rather fast. An important trait about this build is that there isn't a heavy commitment that must be paid for with drone blood. So you build 4-6 hellions. Even if you just snipe a single drone, you are really in a good position. You are not behind if you fail to do economic damage, provided that you do not lose those hellions for free. Those 4-6 hellions are the price for map control. You will restrict creep spread past their nat. You will prevent their lings from having free reign over the map. You will force some kind of response, whether it is a spine crawler or more lings. In fact, without the spine crawler, you can probably pick off a few lings for free. Any economic damage you inflict is merely extra. The important point is to not commit your hellions unless you think you have a good chance of inflicting damage. And that was the position Major found himself in game 4. One big mistake Destiny was timing. He did build a spine crawler, but he didn't have a 2nd queen out, and in addition, the spine crawler was a few seconds too slow. Furthermore, he had a rather low initial ling count. A great way to deal with a reactor hellion is to have a one spinecrawler up, and a handful of speedlings and a queen along with it. Destiny only had 1 queen, and it was at his main. His lings, which, iirc, was something like 2 pairs, isn't enough to stop a hellion runby. A ling/spinecrawler defense against hellion runbies works by zoning them out. They can't attempt a runby because it becomes incredibly risky. Just a handful of lings will trap the hellions, impeding their movements. Just a couple seconds of delaying the hellions will do enough damage to the runby hellions to render them very manageable and simple to deal with. Roaches were used by Destiny in previous games, and may seem like an obvious solution, but roaches aren't the ideal counter, and, in fact, I think they're quite a poor counter. If you make 2 roaches to fend off 4 hellions, you're investing 200 minerals in a roach warren, AND 200 resources of roaches, which is equivalent to the 400 resources sunk in hellions, but you don't get any map control with those roaches, and hellions add more to terran midgame than zerg adds to zerg midgame. Another aspect to keep in mind is that to get the 2 roaches out for the hellion timing, you have to have the roach warren building rather early. At that stage of zerg's economy, the bottleneck for drone production is minerals. In fact, many zergs get an early creep tumor around that time because they have excess larva if they have 2 queens and 2 hatches. Wait just a bit longer, and it isn't so bad to throw down a last minute spine crawler. Destiny, you see, doesn't have a "standard" ZvT opener. The standard openers involve a fast zergling speed upgrade. This makes it much easier to deal with hellion and marine pressure. This also gives zerg an advantage in map control. This is because Destiny doesn't have a standard style of ZvT. As we all know, he likes heavy infestor play. He wants to get to the infestor phase as soon as possible, and it is there that he can be comfortable enough to get his 3rd, harass, inflict damage, defend, tech, and get set up for the fast broodlord/infestor push. You notice, in the games before the last game, Destiny delayed his zergling speed upgrade. There are a few very good reasons why standard ZvT involves a rather fast speed upgrade. For one, marine stutter step micro makes marines very efficient against slow zerglings. With speed upgrade, marines don't become super efficient against zerglings again until the unit counts gets bigger or until stim is available. Heavy marine pressure has very little risk for the terran player if the zerg has no speed upgrade. The zerg can't punish the terran for poking in with the marines, and the terran can poke in and get free units this way, unless zerg invests in a couple spines. And there are other good reasons for faster ling speed, such as reapers and hellions. Naturally, Major, who's regularly employed reaper and hellion openings in the past, sought fit to punish Destiny for this hole in his early game. The hellions and the reapers are not unusual builds. They would do quite fine against a standard ZvT build, even when the zerg player is fully prepared. If zerg gets late speed, however, they suddenly become very, very deadly. This explains a lot of why Destiny lost games 2 and 3. And the thing that absolutely convinced Destiny that he had to change his opening build game 4, was that Major didn't need to sacrifice anything significant for that capability. He was playing a TvZ build that is very solid and will match up just fine against a solid ZvT build. So Destiny had to adjust game 4 and get his speed upgrade earlier. However, his timings for the lings was a bit off and he took a lot of damage, putting him at a disadvantage. Major followed up his highly successful hellion harass with single banshee harass. This follow up is fairly popular and is rather macro oriented. The idea is that there is no tech cost for the banshee; everything necessary for banshee production is already there. The tech lab is going to be used for stim. The starport is going to be used for medivac production. But if you use the starport and the techlab for a short period, you only need to spend 150/100 for a banshee. This is 250 units of resources. A standard TvZ build doesn't need a heavy gas count at this period, so the gas cost isn't significant. The banshee goes out and can guarantee a couple of drone kills without dying. It is just a very minor harass, typically. The idea is that scv production is limited compared to zerg drone production. Shaving a couple drones here and there will add up, keeping the terran at an ok position against the zerg. Shave a bit more than needed with some good maneuvering and tactics, and then you're looking at a slight economic advantage against zerg. Furthermore, the single banshee isn't bad later on. It can continue harassment until mutalisks come out. If you keep it around, it does some nice dps, and it can delay a 3rd for a little bit. Banshee comes in, and Destiny only has one queen, with no creep spread between the main and nat. ZvT builds typically involve hatch-first with 2 early queens. You get enough energy to drop one creep tumor before you need to spend the rest of the energy for larva injects. That one creep tumor will make its way from the main, connect the natural, and then make its way out or, more usefully, connect creep towards a potential 3rd. For a map like tald'arim, you can get a nice creep spread to the 3rd by the time you want to take it, making it safer against harass. That main-to-nat creep connection is specifically for queens to defend against drops and banshees. Queens are actually very good AA units. Banshee harass and drop harass can be very deadly and difficult to deal with without this creep spread. Destiny had only one queen at his main, and no creep spread. That banshee harass turned from what typically is just minor, but steady harass, into something more significant. Along with all the drones lost to the hellions, the damage done by the banshee was devastating. By this time, it was Major's game to lose. So long as he didn't make any critical mistake, or get massively outplayed in some way, he was going to win the game. Major's push was just him playing as he is supposed to. If it got defended, he would have several more shots left available.
excellent post.
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On August 26 2011 07:05 Tsuki.eu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 13:04 Frozenserpent wrote:On August 25 2011 12:03 BlueHydra wrote:On August 25 2011 12:02 Ghoststrikes wrote:I didn't see game 1, but + Show Spoiler +Major totally outclassed destiny in games 2-4 Outclass? he just did early game pushes that every zerg has trouble with. It's true that terran early game all-in pushes can be very hard to deal with, but that wasn't the case here. These pushes were simply not all-in whatsoever. If destiny had a good defense, major simply would have slowly retreated back, and have a good economy behind it. Let's look at the games. In those games, he typically got his 3rd up and running while he pushed out. Major gets his 3rd up and running before Destiny gets a secure 3rd. Suppose Destiny destroys the push, but trades resources at a 4:5 ratio. IE Destiny loses 4000 resources worth of units for every 5000 major loses in his push. What would the situation be then? Destiny would actually still be drastically behind. Major had 74 workers at the end of the last game. 74 is pretty much the most amount of workers you would ever want at once, especially as terran. Meanwhile, Destiny had far, far less workers. Those pushes were very regular pressure pushes in a typical TvZ build. They are fundamental to playing TvZ in a heavy macro style. But, in those games, they ended the game. It's not because Destiny is so bad he can't handle regular pressure builds. It's because Destiny was already far, far behind by the time the pushes came out. Destiny would need to crush that push in order to have a good chance to win the game. So let's examine what happened earlier in the games, that caused Major to be at such an overwhelming advantage. Specifically, let's look at the last build that Major does, which I am quite familiar with on both sides of the coin. Major opens with a hellion expand, which is a very good opening. In fact it's one of my favorite TvZ openings. You see, there are many different kinds of hellion openings for T. We've seen the Slayers terrans favor blue flame hellion openings with drop. There are bfh hellion openings with a heavy count of bfh. These builds typically try to inflict massive amounts of drone damage. At the very least, they need to inflict a decent amount of economic damage or force a large enough response to make the opening worth it. The reactor hellion opening, however, is a different breed. What typically happens is you build 2-6 hellions, which you will send out, and while they are out, you are getting your 2nd up and running. The CC is actually rather fast. An important trait about this build is that there isn't a heavy commitment that must be paid for with drone blood. So you build 4-6 hellions. Even if you just snipe a single drone, you are really in a good position. You are not behind if you fail to do economic damage, provided that you do not lose those hellions for free. Those 4-6 hellions are the price for map control. You will restrict creep spread past their nat. You will prevent their lings from having free reign over the map. You will force some kind of response, whether it is a spine crawler or more lings. In fact, without the spine crawler, you can probably pick off a few lings for free. Any economic damage you inflict is merely extra. The important point is to not commit your hellions unless you think you have a good chance of inflicting damage. And that was the position Major found himself in game 4. One big mistake Destiny was timing. He did build a spine crawler, but he didn't have a 2nd queen out, and in addition, the spine crawler was a few seconds too slow. Furthermore, he had a rather low initial ling count. A great way to deal with a reactor hellion is to have a one spinecrawler up, and a handful of speedlings and a queen along with it. Destiny only had 1 queen, and it was at his main. His lings, which, iirc, was something like 2 pairs, isn't enough to stop a hellion runby. A ling/spinecrawler defense against hellion runbies works by zoning them out. They can't attempt a runby because it becomes incredibly risky. Just a handful of lings will trap the hellions, impeding their movements. Just a couple seconds of delaying the hellions will do enough damage to the runby hellions to render them very manageable and simple to deal with. Roaches were used by Destiny in previous games, and may seem like an obvious solution, but roaches aren't the ideal counter, and, in fact, I think they're quite a poor counter. If you make 2 roaches to fend off 4 hellions, you're investing 200 minerals in a roach warren, AND 200 resources of roaches, which is equivalent to the 400 resources sunk in hellions, but you don't get any map control with those roaches, and hellions add more to terran midgame than zerg adds to zerg midgame. Another aspect to keep in mind is that to get the 2 roaches out for the hellion timing, you have to have the roach warren building rather early. At that stage of zerg's economy, the bottleneck for drone production is minerals. In fact, many zergs get an early creep tumor around that time because they have excess larva if they have 2 queens and 2 hatches. Wait just a bit longer, and it isn't so bad to throw down a last minute spine crawler. Destiny, you see, doesn't have a "standard" ZvT opener. The standard openers involve a fast zergling speed upgrade. This makes it much easier to deal with hellion and marine pressure. This also gives zerg an advantage in map control. This is because Destiny doesn't have a standard style of ZvT. As we all know, he likes heavy infestor play. He wants to get to the infestor phase as soon as possible, and it is there that he can be comfortable enough to get his 3rd, harass, inflict damage, defend, tech, and get set up for the fast broodlord/infestor push. You notice, in the games before the last game, Destiny delayed his zergling speed upgrade. There are a few very good reasons why standard ZvT involves a rather fast speed upgrade. For one, marine stutter step micro makes marines very efficient against slow zerglings. With speed upgrade, marines don't become super efficient against zerglings again until the unit counts gets bigger or until stim is available. Heavy marine pressure has very little risk for the terran player if the zerg has no speed upgrade. The zerg can't punish the terran for poking in with the marines, and the terran can poke in and get free units this way, unless zerg invests in a couple spines. And there are other good reasons for faster ling speed, such as reapers and hellions. Naturally, Major, who's regularly employed reaper and hellion openings in the past, sought fit to punish Destiny for this hole in his early game. The hellions and the reapers are not unusual builds. They would do quite fine against a standard ZvT build, even when the zerg player is fully prepared. If zerg gets late speed, however, they suddenly become very, very deadly. This explains a lot of why Destiny lost games 2 and 3. And the thing that absolutely convinced Destiny that he had to change his opening build game 4, was that Major didn't need to sacrifice anything significant for that capability. He was playing a TvZ build that is very solid and will match up just fine against a solid ZvT build. So Destiny had to adjust game 4 and get his speed upgrade earlier. However, his timings for the lings was a bit off and he took a lot of damage, putting him at a disadvantage. Major followed up his highly successful hellion harass with single banshee harass. This follow up is fairly popular and is rather macro oriented. The idea is that there is no tech cost for the banshee; everything necessary for banshee production is already there. The tech lab is going to be used for stim. The starport is going to be used for medivac production. But if you use the starport and the techlab for a short period, you only need to spend 150/100 for a banshee. This is 250 units of resources. A standard TvZ build doesn't need a heavy gas count at this period, so the gas cost isn't significant. The banshee goes out and can guarantee a couple of drone kills without dying. It is just a very minor harass, typically. The idea is that scv production is limited compared to zerg drone production. Shaving a couple drones here and there will add up, keeping the terran at an ok position against the zerg. Shave a bit more than needed with some good maneuvering and tactics, and then you're looking at a slight economic advantage against zerg. Furthermore, the single banshee isn't bad later on. It can continue harassment until mutalisks come out. If you keep it around, it does some nice dps, and it can delay a 3rd for a little bit. Banshee comes in, and Destiny only has one queen, with no creep spread between the main and nat. ZvT builds typically involve hatch-first with 2 early queens. You get enough energy to drop one creep tumor before you need to spend the rest of the energy for larva injects. That one creep tumor will make its way from the main, connect the natural, and then make its way out or, more usefully, connect creep towards a potential 3rd. For a map like tald'arim, you can get a nice creep spread to the 3rd by the time you want to take it, making it safer against harass. That main-to-nat creep connection is specifically for queens to defend against drops and banshees. Queens are actually very good AA units. Banshee harass and drop harass can be very deadly and difficult to deal with without this creep spread. Destiny had only one queen at his main, and no creep spread. That banshee harass turned from what typically is just minor, but steady harass, into something more significant. Along with all the drones lost to the hellions, the damage done by the banshee was devastating. By this time, it was Major's game to lose. So long as he didn't make any critical mistake, or get massively outplayed in some way, he was going to win the game. Major's push was just him playing as he is supposed to. If it got defended, he would have several more shots left available. excellent post. excellent post, but too long to read sorry
User was warned for this post
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On August 24 2011 03:02 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2011 02:54 Bagi wrote: Major is probably the best NA terran with Select, and he should know Destinys style pretty well by now.
Major to win 3-1. Major is the best NA player. His macro and multittasking is not seen better by any other foreigner.
incorrect.
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On August 25 2011 12:10 LicH. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:08 BlueHydra wrote: LOL why are all these people talking about outclassing destiny? All major did was early timing pushes, give me a break. destiny won the macro game, which was the first, major saw he couldnt beat him in a macro game so he does early strong terran pushes that any zerg loses to, and if ur a zerg, you would know that any zerg can lose to them, just ask idra. Destiny lost the "macro game" first game, was behind the entire game, and only won because he literally hit one fungal.
so then he won the macro game...
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On August 26 2011 07:52 iamlafore wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 12:10 LicH. wrote:On August 25 2011 12:08 BlueHydra wrote: LOL why are all these people talking about outclassing destiny? All major did was early timing pushes, give me a break. destiny won the macro game, which was the first, major saw he couldnt beat him in a macro game so he does early strong terran pushes that any zerg loses to, and if ur a zerg, you would know that any zerg can lose to them, just ask idra. Destiny lost the "macro game" first game, was behind the entire game, and only won because he literally hit one fungal. so then he won the macro game...
Hence why I wrapped it in quotes. "macro game" as in actually macroing, base count, and handling the late game goes to major - destiny certainly didn't win such a game.
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On August 26 2011 08:00 LicH. wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 07:52 iamlafore wrote:On August 25 2011 12:10 LicH. wrote:On August 25 2011 12:08 BlueHydra wrote: LOL why are all these people talking about outclassing destiny? All major did was early timing pushes, give me a break. destiny won the macro game, which was the first, major saw he couldnt beat him in a macro game so he does early strong terran pushes that any zerg loses to, and if ur a zerg, you would know that any zerg can lose to them, just ask idra. Destiny lost the "macro game" first game, was behind the entire game, and only won because he literally hit one fungal. so then he won the macro game... Hence why I wrapped it in quotes. "macro game" as in actually macroing, base count, and handling the late game goes to major - destiny certainly didn't win such a game. Herp derp destiny hater
User was warned for this post
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On August 26 2011 08:16 VPVash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 08:00 LicH. wrote:On August 26 2011 07:52 iamlafore wrote:On August 25 2011 12:10 LicH. wrote:On August 25 2011 12:08 BlueHydra wrote: LOL why are all these people talking about outclassing destiny? All major did was early timing pushes, give me a break. destiny won the macro game, which was the first, major saw he couldnt beat him in a macro game so he does early strong terran pushes that any zerg loses to, and if ur a zerg, you would know that any zerg can lose to them, just ask idra. Destiny lost the "macro game" first game, was behind the entire game, and only won because he literally hit one fungal. so then he won the macro game... Hence why I wrapped it in quotes. "macro game" as in actually macroing, base count, and handling the late game goes to major - destiny certainly didn't win such a game. Herp derp destiny hater Herp derp destiny lover
C'mon, this is dumb. The better player won.
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On August 26 2011 08:16 VPVash wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 08:00 LicH. wrote:On August 26 2011 07:52 iamlafore wrote:On August 25 2011 12:10 LicH. wrote:On August 25 2011 12:08 BlueHydra wrote: LOL why are all these people talking about outclassing destiny? All major did was early timing pushes, give me a break. destiny won the macro game, which was the first, major saw he couldnt beat him in a macro game so he does early strong terran pushes that any zerg loses to, and if ur a zerg, you would know that any zerg can lose to them, just ask idra. Destiny lost the "macro game" first game, was behind the entire game, and only won because he literally hit one fungal. so then he won the macro game... Hence why I wrapped it in quotes. "macro game" as in actually macroing, base count, and handling the late game goes to major - destiny certainly didn't win such a game. Herp derp destiny hater
Holy shit, people make brand new accounts just to spew Destiny fanboyism eh?
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Just saw this showmatch and wanted to thank everybody involved. It was a great showmatch, major playstyle reminds me of how MVP plays, just pure robust mechanics.
This really showed some pretty big weakness in Destiny´s openers but he can always learn from this. Good luck for both players at MLG.
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Why is the main post not being updated w/ a spoiler?
Been trying to see the results for some time now.
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Destiny is not going to MLG i think.
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glad to see destiny being humbled. that 2-0 win over bomber backlash has been going on for way too long. lets get it right, it was a fluke of a victory.. he played well bomber played like shit.
major showin some real class!
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When SC2 celebrities get handled by Broodwar mechanics = Priceless!
Good macro means multitasking and how you macro during a midst of a fight, not playing passive / droning heavily. Passive macro is no longer impressive with MBS.
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I don't like Majors personality from what I've heard of, and the smurfy thing. I want to see Destiny win this. Oh well the match was already over... TT
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On August 27 2011 00:36 EricCartman wrote: glad to see destiny being humbled. that 2-0 win over bomber backlash has been going on for way too long. lets get it right, it was a fluke of a victory.. he played well bomber played like shit.
Not really. There is no shame in losing to Major who is one of the best players in NA.
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On August 27 2011 02:42 eYeball wrote: I don't like Majors personality from what I've heard of, and the smurfy thing. Me neither, but I can't question his skill. Grats to him.
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the better player won ggs
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