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Blacktion
United Kingdom1148 Posts
 Zenio loses - Wouldve been nice to have another zerg in the Ro8 MMA loses- If MVP loses to Nestea i think MMA was the only person with a good chance of stopping Nestea Bomber loses - All round the better player, wouldve shown better games in the future rounds than keen imo And the Genius Virus game was just shocking | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 23 2011 22:19 yeint wrote: I think you're confusing all ins with cheesing. You should never be able to 100% crush an all-in just by knowing that it's coming. All-ins are basically really strong timing pushes, they don't depend on surprise. The complaint I was responding to was "we have no idea which variation it is because we can't scout". Yes you can. You certainly should crush an allin that you scouted early. If they're hard to stop even then that just encourages shitty 1base play all the time from weak players who knock out good players on a slightly off day. There aren't any other allins in the game that aren't easily crushed if you scout them early. | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On August 23 2011 22:12 Psycosquirrel wrote: I dont think it will. After today, i'd expect terrans to start scouting agressively for this and adjust accordingly. Who knows though, maybe the stim timing changes that went through a while ago will make this proxy void ray too hard to handle. I think the whole idea of this proxy stargate is to hit before the 111 can start to ramp up, before the starport's production can really get going. Im not good enough with timing, but I get the feeling your first starport unit would be about halfway done by the time that rush could hit. If Terran goes 1-1-1, the Starport should be up around the time the first void ray is built. The P Stargate is obviously up earlier than the T Starport due to the Factory costing gas while the Cybernetics Core does not. However, Void Rays have a long build time even when chronoboosted. If a Terran scouts the proxy stargate and can swap a reactor onto his starport then he should be fine. A small number of stalkers wont kill the vikings that fast, and they can kite the void rays as needed. | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On August 23 2011 22:19 yeint wrote: I think you're confusing all ins with cheesing. You should never be able to 100% crush an all-in just by knowing that it's coming. All-ins are basically really strong timing pushes, they don't depend on surprise. The complaint I was responding to was "we have no idea which variation it is because we can't scout". Yes you can. You can declare you are 1-1-1ing in the chat before the game starts and still win with it. Yes knowing its coming should give at least a chance. | ||
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Tommie
China658 Posts
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On August 23 2011 22:19 Psycosquirrel wrote: This is a major part of why toss are so upset with this 111 attack. If toss or zerg pulls 10 or 15 workers on an attack, its for sure an all in. There's no recovering from that. But terran can, thanks to the mule, and as you state even expand behind the attack. It's not because of the mule. 1 Orbital muling = 3 SCVs. That hardly makes up for pulling 12 of them. It's because SCVs make our pushes stronger. They repair mech/air, and they buffer our damage dealers, which are all ranged. Protoss and Zerg can both replenish workers much faster, it's just that your workers hinder your melee units instead of making them stronger. We also bring more workers on pushes because they're at harms way when building forward structures like bunkers. If probes had to BUILD your forward pylons, I'm sure you'd bring more than one as well. As for the production part, if I remember correctly game 1 of Mc vs polt at gamescon, polt had a ractored rax, two additional rax, a starport and a factory. What would be all in then? EDIT: forgot to reply to this part, lol. I said that the MC vs Puma game was completely all-in because he completely stopped producting workers and pumped additional marines from those extra rax instead. Just 3 production buildings is perfectly within bounds of what 1 base can support. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On August 23 2011 22:19 yeint wrote: I think you're confusing all ins with cheesing. You should never be able to 100% crush an all-in just by knowing that it's coming. All-ins are basically really strong timing pushes, they don't depend on surprise. The complaint I was responding to was "we have no idea which variation it is because we can't scout". Yes you can. rofl this is so wrong An all-in IS supposed to get crushed by a properly executed defensive build. All-ins are supposed to work vs greedy builds where the opponent cuts corners to get ahead in a macro-game. A conservative, safe build where you prepare for any possibility should give you a 100% win-rate, if you are of equal skill. Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote: Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. See: Inca vs Nestea GSL finals. Failface DTs every game followed by immense face crush. | ||
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aebriol
Norway2066 Posts
On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote: rofl this is so wrong An all-in IS supposed to get crushed by a properly executed defensive build. All-ins are supposed to work vs greedy builds where the opponent cuts corners to get ahead in a macro-game. A conservative, safe build where you prepare for any possibility should give you a 100% win-rate, if you are of equal skill. Exactly. And 1 gate expand is NOT a conservative, safe build. | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On August 23 2011 22:28 aebriol wrote: Exactly. And 1 gate expand is NOT a conservative, safe build. It gets MORE out with MORE tech than 1 base'ing. Thats what people like Artosis and Wolf seem to be missing. It actually gets more. This is the 9 min mark we are talking about here. Not the 6 min. The only way to be even safer versus 1-1-1 is 15 nexus. | ||
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote: Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote: Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. A few minutes is fine. Thats a telegraph. Problem is terran can type out that he is 1-1-1ing or 1 baseing before the game starts and still win at least half the time. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote: Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. What other allins fit this description praytell? | ||
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On August 23 2011 22:31 Medrea wrote: A few minutes is fine. Thats a telegraph. Problem is terran can type out that he is 1-1-1ing or 1 baseing before the game starts and still win at least half the time. That's very bold claim that has no proof. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On August 23 2011 22:28 aebriol wrote: And 1 gate expand is NOT a conservative, safe build. Both 3 gate expand and any version with robo into expand are not only inferior to a straight one rax CC macro from terran (that you can't punish, btw.) but also give you a LOWER chance of actually holding the 111. There is nothing to gain from expanding later vs the 111. The best build vs 111 is - funnily enough - a nexus first. A 1 gate expand is greedy on close positions and/or open maps, where terran can try to crush it with 2/3 rax. The 111 does NOT punish a one gate expo as it hits at a point in time when the expansion has already paid off. Gah, just read one of the multiple threads on 111 if you lack this kind of understanding... | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
Well the one GSL commentator (Korean, former BW pro) tried to hold it 5x against a top random player (ST_Superstar or something), using Artosis and others' favorite build - 1 gate robo. ie he knew it was coming from the start. He lost 0-5. | ||
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On August 23 2011 22:32 Yaotzin wrote: What other allins fit this description praytell? Morrow-style econ bling bust. 6 gate. 1 base robo. 3 gate VR. Anyway, fun conversation, but I have places to be  Gah, just read one of the multiple threads on 111 if you lack this kind of understanding... Maybe I'll read 3 month old threads about ZvP and make sarcastic jokes about "opening doors", because the obvious Z consensus then was that ZvP is unwinnable. That seems about as productive. | ||
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Yaotzin
South Africa4280 Posts
On August 23 2011 22:36 yeint wrote: Morrow-style econ bling bust. 6 gate. 1 base robo. 3 gate VR. Anyway, fun conversation, but I have places to be Oh deary me. You think you can't stop those with even 1 minutes preparation. Do you even play Starcraft? | ||
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Medrea
10003 Posts
Plenty of protoss in GSL have opened with builds designed for optimal chances against the 1-1-1. Forget 2 Rax. or 3 Rax. Forget possible early terran expo. JUST 1-1-1. I believe Tassadar's games this season should show. The 1-1-1 came and killed him anyway. | ||
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sleepingdog
Austria6145 Posts
On August 23 2011 22:36 yeint wrote: Morrow-style econ bling bust. 6 gate. 1 base robo. 3 gate VR. Anyway, fun conversation, but I have places to be Hahaha now you are just making a fool out of yourself. If I tell terran "hey, I'm gonna 6 gate your ass in a minute" he will literally build 20 bunkers, lean back, slurp some coffe and lol at my fail. EDIT: damn I've sworn not to get engaged in these kinds of pointless discussions anymore... | ||
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