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On August 23 2011 22:35 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:33 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:31 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:
Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. A few minutes is fine. Thats a telegraph. Problem is terran can type out that he is 1-1-1ing or 1 baseing before the game starts and still win at least half the time. That's very bold claim that has no proof. Well the one GSL commentator (Korean, former BW pro) tried to hold it 5x against a top random player (ST_Superstar or something), using Artosis and others' favorite build - 1 gate robo. ie he knew it was coming from the start. He lost 0-5.
Oh yeah even better example. I almost forgot about that.
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On August 23 2011 22:38 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:36 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:32 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:
Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. What other allins fit this description praytell? Morrow-style econ bling bust. 6 gate. 1 base robo. 3 gate VR. Anyway, fun conversation, but I have places to be  Hahaha now you are just making a fool out of yourself. If I tell terran "hey, I'm gonna 6 gate your ass in a minute" he will literally build 20 bunkers, lean back, slurp some coffe and lol at my fail.
I didn't mean 6 gate in PvT, I meant 6 gate in PvZ. Anyways, I'm not interested in balance discussion, I was just interested in discussing terminology (cheese vs all-in).
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On August 23 2011 22:40 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:38 sleepingdog wrote:On August 23 2011 22:36 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:32 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:
Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. What other allins fit this description praytell? Morrow-style econ bling bust. 6 gate. 1 base robo. 3 gate VR. Anyway, fun conversation, but I have places to be Hahaha now you are just making a fool out of yourself. If I tell terran "hey, I'm gonna 6 gate your ass in a minute" he will literally build 20 bunkers, lean back, slurp some coffe and lol at my fail. I didn't mean 6 gate in PvT, I meant 6 gate in PvZ. Anyways, I'm not interested in balance discussion, I was just interested in discussing terminology (cheese vs all-in).
Replace 20 bunkers with 20 spines then.
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On August 23 2011 22:40 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:38 sleepingdog wrote:On August 23 2011 22:36 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:32 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:
Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. What other allins fit this description praytell? Morrow-style econ bling bust. 6 gate. 1 base robo. 3 gate VR. Anyway, fun conversation, but I have places to be Hahaha now you are just making a fool out of yourself. If I tell terran "hey, I'm gonna 6 gate your ass in a minute" he will literally build 20 bunkers, lean back, slurp some coffe and lol at my fail. I didn't mean 6 gate in PvT, I meant 6 gate in PvZ. Anyways, I'm not interested in balance discussion, I was just interested in discussing terminology (cheese vs all-in).
Replace bunkers with spine crawlers then.
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A high eco bling bust fails horribly if the opponent knows it's coming a few minutes beforehand because he will be building factory units, Tanks with siege or BFH counter it pretty hard with a wall.
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I'm confused by the fact that Genius proxy void ray twice.
Don't know wether he practiced it vs 1-1-1 or he just assumed Virus it's not an abusive player so he could proxy him with no 1-1-1.
In my mind, 1-1-1 counters proxy void ray hard, so it must be the second.
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all the people who say Protoss should do this and that to stop 111 think they are so smart and better than all the pro protoss players in Korea yet they cannot provide any proof of anyone defending a properly executed - Korean standard 111.
Artosis is funny as well, he should show a tutorial of him defending a good 111 by a Korean. Then, he can bash GSL toss players for FE against 111.
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On August 23 2011 22:41 clusen wrote:
A high eco bling bust fails horribly if the opponent knows it's coming a few minutes beforehand because he will be building factory units, Tanks with siege or BFH counter it pretty hard with a wall.
Or just be funny and build a row of 6 raxes haha. It's comically easy to stop pretty much all allins if you know they're coming well in advance. Except 1/1/1 of course, where knowing its coming actually makes very little difference.
I'm confused by the fact that Genius proxy void ray twice.
Don't know wether he practiced it vs 1-1-1 or he just assumed Virus it's not an abusive player so he could proxy him with no 1-1-1.
In my mind, 1-1-1 counters proxy void ray hard, so it must be the second.
Desperation and proxy void is still the strongest Protoss 1base allin even if it's quite bad now. What else could he do? 4gate lol?
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Canada2732 Posts
On August 23 2011 22:41 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:40 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:38 sleepingdog wrote:On August 23 2011 22:36 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:32 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:
Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. What other allins fit this description praytell? Morrow-style econ bling bust. 6 gate. 1 base robo. 3 gate VR. Anyway, fun conversation, but I have places to be Hahaha now you are just making a fool out of yourself. If I tell terran "hey, I'm gonna 6 gate your ass in a minute" he will literally build 20 bunkers, lean back, slurp some coffe and lol at my fail. I didn't mean 6 gate in PvT, I meant 6 gate in PvZ. Anyways, I'm not interested in balance discussion, I was just interested in discussing terminology (cheese vs all-in). Replace bunkers with spine crawlers then.
If zerg makes 20 spines off 2 base they already lost the game...
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On August 23 2011 22:42 s3183529 wrote:
all the people who say Protoss should do this and that to stop 111 think they are so smart and better than all the pro protoss players in Korea yet they cannot provide any proof of anyone defending a properly executed - Korean standard 111.
Artosis is funny as well, he should show a tutorial of him defending a good 111 by a Korean. Then, he can bash GSL toss players for FE against 111.
On one base too. Don;t forget that. Him and wolf can show us the way.
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On August 23 2011 22:41 clusen wrote:
A high eco bling bust fails horribly if the opponent knows it's coming a few minutes beforehand because he will be building factory units, Tanks with siege or BFH counter it pretty hard with a wall.
You can't tech switch to siege or blue flame that quickly if you're FEing. Watch Jinro vs Morrow or especially Jinro vs July. He built the craziest wall in Starcraft history, then misread July as he all-ined off 2 base and completely destroyed Jinro.
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On August 23 2011 22:44 ItsMeDomLee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:41 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:40 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:38 sleepingdog wrote:On August 23 2011 22:36 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:32 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:
Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. What other allins fit this description praytell? Morrow-style econ bling bust. 6 gate. 1 base robo. 3 gate VR. Anyway, fun conversation, but I have places to be Hahaha now you are just making a fool out of yourself. If I tell terran "hey, I'm gonna 6 gate your ass in a minute" he will literally build 20 bunkers, lean back, slurp some coffe and lol at my fail. I didn't mean 6 gate in PvT, I meant 6 gate in PvZ. Anyways, I'm not interested in balance discussion, I was just interested in discussing terminology (cheese vs all-in). Replace bunkers with spine crawlers then. If zerg makes 20 spines off 2 base they already lost the game...
Well you wouldnt need 20. Spine crawlers have default 2 armor dontcha know.
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On August 23 2011 22:42 xN.07)MaK wrote:
I'm confused by the fact that Genius proxy void ray twice.
Don't know wether he practiced it vs 1-1-1 or he just assumed Virus it's not an abusive player so he could proxy him with no 1-1-1.
In my mind, 1-1-1 counters proxy void ray hard, so it must be the second.
Maybe he decided he didn't want to deal with this shit after game 1, and just hoped Virus would mismanage his defense.
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On August 23 2011 22:35 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:33 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:31 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:
Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. A few minutes is fine. Thats a telegraph. Problem is terran can type out that he is 1-1-1ing or 1 baseing before the game starts and still win at least half the time. That's very bold claim that has no proof. Well the one GSL commentator (Korean, former BW pro) tried to hold it 5x against a top random player (ST_Superstar or something), using Artosis and others' favorite build - 1 gate robo. ie he knew it was coming from the start. He lost 0-5.
Assuming that's true, it still doesn't mean anything. He doesn't play SC2 full-time unlike Superstar. Former BW pro doesn't say much. For all we know he could be bad (and by bad I mean by good Korean standards) at both SC1 and SC2. Rainbow was a former A-teamer on SKT, nowadays he spends most of his time owning people in NA server, dating and preparing for military service. He even has trouble executing a proper 4 gate in PvP. Yellow was former BW pro as well. After 1/2 months of playing (according to project A), he's in Gold league (recently promoted to Masters if you believe the rumors).
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On August 23 2011 22:44 ItsMeDomLee wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:41 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:40 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:38 sleepingdog wrote:On August 23 2011 22:36 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:32 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:
Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. What other allins fit this description praytell? Morrow-style econ bling bust. 6 gate. 1 base robo. 3 gate VR. Anyway, fun conversation, but I have places to be Hahaha now you are just making a fool out of yourself. If I tell terran "hey, I'm gonna 6 gate your ass in a minute" he will literally build 20 bunkers, lean back, slurp some coffe and lol at my fail. I didn't mean 6 gate in PvT, I meant 6 gate in PvZ. Anyways, I'm not interested in balance discussion, I was just interested in discussing terminology (cheese vs all-in). Replace bunkers with spine crawlers then. If zerg makes 20 spines off 2 base they already lost the game...
The point is about holding an allin. If Protoss tells you "I'm gonna 6gate you", and you merely need to do everything you can to stop that, it's trivial, right? Build tons of spines and some units if you feel like it. Obviously that's not generally a good strategy because they might be faking or something, but it'll certainly stop any attempted 6gate allin.
OTOH no matter much you commit to it, no matter how much you know exactly what they're doing, you'll still die to the 1/1/1 more often than not.
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A 1-1-1 is only as good as the scouting intel that Terran gets. Deny the scout, deny a good 1-1-1. Scout what type of 1-1-1 it is, you'll be fine. It's a highly intel based build.
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Man did I miss some upsets in the first two sets, looks like base on the recommendations MMA vs Polt was bad, but Keen vs Bomber was good? I hate waking up early now for 12+ hour school days, no more GSL for me for a while.
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On August 23 2011 22:42 xN.07)MaK wrote:
I'm confused by the fact that Genius proxy void ray twice.
Don't know wether he practiced it vs 1-1-1 or he just assumed Virus it's not an abusive player so he could proxy him with no 1-1-1.
In my mind, 1-1-1 counters proxy void ray hard, so it must be the second.
Depends what 1-1-1 your going really.
If your just going 1-1-1 without planning for the allin and you make vikings, yes you can hold good.
If you just build a banshee and a tank and the VR's come then things aren't looking very good ^^.
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On August 23 2011 22:46 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:35 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:33 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:31 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:
Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. A few minutes is fine. Thats a telegraph. Problem is terran can type out that he is 1-1-1ing or 1 baseing before the game starts and still win at least half the time. That's very bold claim that has no proof. Well the one GSL commentator (Korean, former BW pro) tried to hold it 5x against a top random player (ST_Superstar or something), using Artosis and others' favorite build - 1 gate robo. ie he knew it was coming from the start. He lost 0-5. Assuming that's true, it still doesn't mean anything. He doesn't play SC2 full-time unlike Superstar. Former BW pro doesn't say much. For all we know he could be bad (and by bad I mean by good Korean standards) at both SC1 and SC2. Rainbow was a former A-teamer on SKT, nowadays he spends most of his time owning people in NA server, dating and preparing for military service. He even has trouble executing a proper 4 gate in PvP. Yellow was former BW pro as well. After 1/2 months of playing (according to project A), he's in Gold league (recently promoted to Masters if you believe the rumors).
Well its hard to find examples of people failing using shitty strategies. I mean, I can't find an example of someone trying to mothership rush a 1/1/1 and failing either. People know - and have known for ages - that an early expo is the best chance against a 1/1/1. So any attempted defence you look for will involve one of them.
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On August 23 2011 22:46 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:35 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:33 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:31 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:
Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. A few minutes is fine. Thats a telegraph. Problem is terran can type out that he is 1-1-1ing or 1 baseing before the game starts and still win at least half the time. That's very bold claim that has no proof. Well the one GSL commentator (Korean, former BW pro) tried to hold it 5x against a top random player (ST_Superstar or something), using Artosis and others' favorite build - 1 gate robo. ie he knew it was coming from the start. He lost 0-5. Assuming that's true, it still doesn't mean anything. He doesn't play SC2 full-time unlike Superstar. Former BW pro doesn't say much. For all we know he could be bad (and by bad I mean by good Korean standards) at both SC1 and SC2. Rainbow was a former A-teamer on SKT, nowadays he spends most of his time owning people in NA server, dating and preparing for military service. He even has trouble executing a proper 4 gate in PvP. Yellow was former BW pro as well. After 1/2 months of playing (according to project A), he's in Gold league (recently promoted to Masters if you believe the rumors).
The korean commentator, forgive me I don't know his name right now, is really good at SC2. He is borderline pro level but for obvious reasons is not a pro if I am mistaken.
Im trying to think of a foreigner equivalent but nothing is coming to mind.
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EPT
