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On August 23 2011 22:54 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:51 sleepingdog wrote:On August 23 2011 22:50 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:46 Kavas wrote:On August 23 2011 22:35 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:33 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:31 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:
Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. A few minutes is fine. Thats a telegraph. Problem is terran can type out that he is 1-1-1ing or 1 baseing before the game starts and still win at least half the time. That's very bold claim that has no proof. Well the one GSL commentator (Korean, former BW pro) tried to hold it 5x against a top random player (ST_Superstar or something), using Artosis and others' favorite build - 1 gate robo. ie he knew it was coming from the start. He lost 0-5. Assuming that's true, it still doesn't mean anything. He doesn't play SC2 full-time unlike Superstar. Former BW pro doesn't say much. For all we know he could be bad (and by bad I mean by good Korean standards) at both SC1 and SC2. Rainbow was a former A-teamer on SKT, nowadays he spends most of his time owning people in NA server, dating and preparing for military service. He even has trouble executing a proper 4 gate in PvP. Yellow was former BW pro as well. After 1/2 months of playing (according to project A), he's in Gold league (recently promoted to Masters if you believe the rumors). The korean commentator, forgive me I don't know his name right now, is really good at SC2. He is borderline pro level but for obvious reasons is not a pro if I am mistaken. Im trying to think of a foreigner equivalent but nothing is coming to mind. Even though nobody knows how good he really is....Day9? As much as I love that guy. Better. Though probably not in RTS thinking.
You mean Daezang. Yeah I watched that. That was kinda sad; it turned into a QQ session with him, superstar and the other guy.
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On August 23 2011 23:04 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 23:04 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 23:00 Kavas wrote:On August 23 2011 22:57 Yaotzin wrote:
Then why does it never work in tournament games? Why don't they even try it?
I've seen pretty much every supposed counter in the book fail on Huk's stream if we wanna go into ladder territory. Puzzle beat FXOasd recently with it on the GSTL. Thats another one of those "I hope terran horribly botches this" games I think. 3 free banshees, 200 orbital energy. Yup.
People are saying this push isn;t as bad as it looks.
Its actually WORSE IMO. The only reason terrans aren't doing it EVERY time is because they don't want to draw attention to themselves like IMYoda. Currently, the mere threat of the 1-1-1 is powerful enough to give every terran one free game in a best of whatever.
Korea recognizes this, and thats why they have given IMMVP the name of "conscience terran"
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On August 23 2011 23:02 s3183529 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 23:00 Kavas wrote:On August 23 2011 22:57 Yaotzin wrote:
Then why does it never work in tournament games? Why don't they even try it?
I've seen pretty much every supposed counter in the book fail on Huk's stream if we wanna go into ladder territory. Puzzle beat FXOasd recently with it on the GSTL. Yeah, And asd donate 3 banshees to Phoenix before the push. Even Artosis said it was badly excuted by asd. Stop using examples where Terran made mistakes.
So Terran makes mistakes and loses it's fine. Whereas if Protoss makes a mistake and loses it's 1-1-1 imba.
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On August 23 2011 23:08 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 23:02 s3183529 wrote:On August 23 2011 23:00 Kavas wrote:On August 23 2011 22:57 Yaotzin wrote:
Then why does it never work in tournament games? Why don't they even try it?
I've seen pretty much every supposed counter in the book fail on Huk's stream if we wanna go into ladder territory. Puzzle beat FXOasd recently with it on the GSTL. Yeah, And asd donate 3 banshees to Phoenix before the push. Even Artosis said it was badly excuted by asd. Stop using examples where Terran made mistakes. So Terran makes mistakes and loses it's fine. Whereas if Protoss makes a mistake and loses it's 1-1-1 imba.
Nono. People are saying the only way to hold tank marine allins is to hope Terran does something wrong like a blithering idiot.
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On August 23 2011 22:57 Yaotzin wrote:
Then why does it never work in tournament games? Why don't they even try it?
I've seen pretty much every supposed counter in the book fail on Huk's stream if we wanna go into ladder territory.
Every single one of your posts of late have been balance complaints about 1-1-1. I think you have some good, valid points, but I also think you could take a little break from this issue to cool yourself down a bit, especially in a LR thread for a matchday in which nobody used 1-1-1.
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On August 23 2011 23:08 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 23:02 s3183529 wrote:On August 23 2011 23:00 Kavas wrote:On August 23 2011 22:57 Yaotzin wrote:
Then why does it never work in tournament games? Why don't they even try it?
I've seen pretty much every supposed counter in the book fail on Huk's stream if we wanna go into ladder territory. Puzzle beat FXOasd recently with it on the GSTL. Yeah, And asd donate 3 banshees to Phoenix before the push. Even Artosis said it was badly excuted by asd. Stop using examples where Terran made mistakes. So Terran makes mistakes and loses it's fine. Whereas if Protoss makes a mistake and loses it's 1-1-1 imba.
Yeah apparently Korean Protoss players can't screw up
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On August 23 2011 23:06 Talin wrote:
There's a reason we have a designated balance thread now, and it's not so that I can read "omg completely broken" post in every thread. -_-
Sorry I thought we were in the other thread. Didn't realize we were in the LR thread. Moving along now.
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France1763 Posts
On August 23 2011 23:02 Yaotzin wrote:
It certainly used to but after all the void/warpgate nerfs it doesn't anymore.
I mean, if you proxy it and it doesn't get scouted? Yeah, sure. But that's an unreliable cheese. If you straight up 3gate void and they see it early they can hold very easily with bunkers+marines.
A cheese being the only counter to something is obviously broken.
Specially if you have to bring some kind of "double" cheese. 3 gate / VR was the original counter to the 1-1-1, abusing the small window you had between building 3 structures and start pumping units. But then, it was nerfed. With the changes of VR, they start doing less damage and they become a less optimal counter because they didn't kill marines and stuff fast enough. Therefore, to make it work now, not to miss that small windows (low count of marines), you have to proxy the VR...
1-1-1 is broken, and a bad thing for the game because it forces protoss to play like crap, because they have a very limited set of options to hold a 1-1-1. That's why Genius went proxy-VR two times, and why Killer always goes 15nexus. These are two blind counters to 1-1-1.
Now, protoss is playing blind, and that gives an enormous advantage to terran. If he goes 15nexus, all terran builds let you 2rax/3rax/4rax and attack. If he goes ultra-defensive style, you can always just expand and benefit from a huge lead.
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On August 23 2011 23:08 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 23:02 s3183529 wrote:On August 23 2011 23:00 Kavas wrote:On August 23 2011 22:57 Yaotzin wrote:
Then why does it never work in tournament games? Why don't they even try it?
I've seen pretty much every supposed counter in the book fail on Huk's stream if we wanna go into ladder territory. Puzzle beat FXOasd recently with it on the GSTL. Yeah, And asd donate 3 banshees to Phoenix before the push. Even Artosis said it was badly excuted by asd. Stop using examples where Terran made mistakes. So Terran makes mistakes and loses it's fine. Whereas if Protoss makes a mistake and loses it's 1-1-1 imba.
LOL, Toss don't make mistake and still lose. Teraan can afford some mistakes and still own with 111. And if you're so smart, show all the Toss in Korea how to stop it.
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On August 23 2011 23:07 Nayl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:54 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:51 sleepingdog wrote:On August 23 2011 22:50 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:46 Kavas wrote:On August 23 2011 22:35 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:33 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:31 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:
Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. A few minutes is fine. Thats a telegraph. Problem is terran can type out that he is 1-1-1ing or 1 baseing before the game starts and still win at least half the time. That's very bold claim that has no proof. Well the one GSL commentator (Korean, former BW pro) tried to hold it 5x against a top random player (ST_Superstar or something), using Artosis and others' favorite build - 1 gate robo. ie he knew it was coming from the start. He lost 0-5. Assuming that's true, it still doesn't mean anything. He doesn't play SC2 full-time unlike Superstar. Former BW pro doesn't say much. For all we know he could be bad (and by bad I mean by good Korean standards) at both SC1 and SC2. Rainbow was a former A-teamer on SKT, nowadays he spends most of his time owning people in NA server, dating and preparing for military service. He even has trouble executing a proper 4 gate in PvP. Yellow was former BW pro as well. After 1/2 months of playing (according to project A), he's in Gold league (recently promoted to Masters if you believe the rumors). The korean commentator, forgive me I don't know his name right now, is really good at SC2. He is borderline pro level but for obvious reasons is not a pro if I am mistaken. Im trying to think of a foreigner equivalent but nothing is coming to mind. Even though nobody knows how good he really is....Day9? As much as I love that guy. Better. Though probably not in RTS thinking. You mean Daezang. Yeah I watched that. That was kinda sad; it turned into a QQ session with him, superstar and the other guy.
Is there a VoD of that out somwhere?
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On August 23 2011 23:11 s3183529 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 23:08 Kavas wrote:On August 23 2011 23:02 s3183529 wrote:On August 23 2011 23:00 Kavas wrote:On August 23 2011 22:57 Yaotzin wrote:
Then why does it never work in tournament games? Why don't they even try it?
I've seen pretty much every supposed counter in the book fail on Huk's stream if we wanna go into ladder territory. Puzzle beat FXOasd recently with it on the GSTL. Yeah, And asd donate 3 banshees to Phoenix before the push. Even Artosis said it was badly excuted by asd. Stop using examples where Terran made mistakes. So Terran makes mistakes and loses it's fine. Whereas if Protoss makes a mistake and loses it's 1-1-1 imba. LOL, Toss don't make mistake and still lose. Teraan can afford some mistakes and still own with 111. And if you're so smart, show all the Toss in Korea how to stop it.
On that note I'd like to say that Alicia is soooooo upset about it. His twitter is kind of funny, but I sympathize with the guy, thats his bread and butter.
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On August 23 2011 22:34 sleepingdog wrote:
Gah, just read one of the multiple threads on 111 if you lack this kind of understanding...
This is actually just wrong.
The easiest way to hold the 1-1-1 is by going straight into colossus and stay on one base.
Problem is of course, that you might be far behind if anything else is done.
1 gate into expand or nexus first gets 'more stuff faster' but push it back in time, so you won't have colossus out in time to stop any sort of push so you are stuck with immortals - whereas you could otherwise get out 1 immortal 1-2 colossus (no range).
Terrans are doing 1 base pushes because they can't easily be stopped by forcefields. If Z had the same option, they'd be doing the exact same thing. 1 gate expand IS greedy, because it sacrifice early tech and units for later econ and more units but much later tech. And that tech is what's needed.
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On August 23 2011 23:17 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:34 sleepingdog wrote:
Gah, just read one of the multiple threads on 111 if you lack this kind of understanding... This is actually just wrong. The easiest way to hold the 1-1-1 is by going straight into colossus and stay on one base. Problem is of course, that you might be far behind if anything else is done. 1 gate into expand or nexus first gets 'more stuff faster' but push it back in time, so you won't have colossus out in time to stop any sort of push so you are stuck with immortals - whereas you could otherwise get out 1 immortal 1-2 colossus (no range). Terrans are doing 1 base pushes because they can't easily be stopped by forcefields. If Z had the same option, they'd be doing the exact same thing. 1 gate expand IS greedy, because it sacrifice early tech and units for later econ and more units but much later tech. And that tech is what's needed.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=257589¤tpage=95#1899
Youll get contained until thermal lance is done. By that time, the game is over.
There is no greedy when it comes to 1-1-1. Early expos are always better. The expansion always pays for itself.
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On August 23 2011 23:12 Toadvine wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 23:07 Nayl wrote:On August 23 2011 22:54 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:51 sleepingdog wrote:On August 23 2011 22:50 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:46 Kavas wrote:On August 23 2011 22:35 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:33 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:31 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:
[quote]
Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. A few minutes is fine. Thats a telegraph. Problem is terran can type out that he is 1-1-1ing or 1 baseing before the game starts and still win at least half the time. That's very bold claim that has no proof. Well the one GSL commentator (Korean, former BW pro) tried to hold it 5x against a top random player (ST_Superstar or something), using Artosis and others' favorite build - 1 gate robo. ie he knew it was coming from the start. He lost 0-5. Assuming that's true, it still doesn't mean anything. He doesn't play SC2 full-time unlike Superstar. Former BW pro doesn't say much. For all we know he could be bad (and by bad I mean by good Korean standards) at both SC1 and SC2. Rainbow was a former A-teamer on SKT, nowadays he spends most of his time owning people in NA server, dating and preparing for military service. He even has trouble executing a proper 4 gate in PvP. Yellow was former BW pro as well. After 1/2 months of playing (according to project A), he's in Gold league (recently promoted to Masters if you believe the rumors). The korean commentator, forgive me I don't know his name right now, is really good at SC2. He is borderline pro level but for obvious reasons is not a pro if I am mistaken. Im trying to think of a foreigner equivalent but nothing is coming to mind. Even though nobody knows how good he really is....Day9? As much as I love that guy. Better. Though probably not in RTS thinking. You mean Daezang. Yeah I watched that. That was kinda sad; it turned into a QQ session with him, superstar and the other guy. Is there a VoD of that out somwhere?
http://ch.gomtv.com/4555/28119/441438
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On August 23 2011 23:26 Nayl wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 23:12 Toadvine wrote:On August 23 2011 23:07 Nayl wrote:On August 23 2011 22:54 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:51 sleepingdog wrote:On August 23 2011 22:50 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:46 Kavas wrote:On August 23 2011 22:35 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:33 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:31 Medrea wrote:
[quote]
A few minutes is fine. Thats a telegraph. Problem is terran can type out that he is 1-1-1ing or 1 baseing before the game starts and still win at least half the time. That's very bold claim that has no proof. Well the one GSL commentator (Korean, former BW pro) tried to hold it 5x against a top random player (ST_Superstar or something), using Artosis and others' favorite build - 1 gate robo. ie he knew it was coming from the start. He lost 0-5. Assuming that's true, it still doesn't mean anything. He doesn't play SC2 full-time unlike Superstar. Former BW pro doesn't say much. For all we know he could be bad (and by bad I mean by good Korean standards) at both SC1 and SC2. Rainbow was a former A-teamer on SKT, nowadays he spends most of his time owning people in NA server, dating and preparing for military service. He even has trouble executing a proper 4 gate in PvP. Yellow was former BW pro as well. After 1/2 months of playing (according to project A), he's in Gold league (recently promoted to Masters if you believe the rumors). The korean commentator, forgive me I don't know his name right now, is really good at SC2. He is borderline pro level but for obvious reasons is not a pro if I am mistaken. Im trying to think of a foreigner equivalent but nothing is coming to mind. Even though nobody knows how good he really is....Day9? As much as I love that guy. Better. Though probably not in RTS thinking. You mean Daezang. Yeah I watched that. That was kinda sad; it turned into a QQ session with him, superstar and the other guy. Is there a VoD of that out somwhere? http://ch.gomtv.com/4555/28119/441438
Sweet man thanks.
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Why is Genius winning, Isn't 1-1-1 broken? Did virus use it?
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On August 23 2011 23:19 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 23:17 aebriol wrote:On August 23 2011 22:34 sleepingdog wrote:
Gah, just read one of the multiple threads on 111 if you lack this kind of understanding... This is actually just wrong. The easiest way to hold the 1-1-1 is by going straight into colossus and stay on one base. Problem is of course, that you might be far behind if anything else is done. 1 gate into expand or nexus first gets 'more stuff faster' but push it back in time, so you won't have colossus out in time to stop any sort of push so you are stuck with immortals - whereas you could otherwise get out 1 immortal 1-2 colossus (no range). Terrans are doing 1 base pushes because they can't easily be stopped by forcefields. If Z had the same option, they'd be doing the exact same thing. 1 gate expand IS greedy, because it sacrifice early tech and units for later econ and more units but much later tech. And that tech is what's needed. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=257589¤tpage=95#1899Youll get contained until thermal lance is done. By that time, the game is over. There is no greedy when it comes to 1-1-1. Early expos are always better. The expansion always pays for itself.
Every1 keeps saying this. It might be correct, but then again it may not? I don't feel this has been proven and it seems rather uncreative to put this argument in the face of everyone who thinks otherwise!?
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On August 23 2011 23:29 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 23:19 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 23:17 aebriol wrote:On August 23 2011 22:34 sleepingdog wrote:
Gah, just read one of the multiple threads on 111 if you lack this kind of understanding... This is actually just wrong. The easiest way to hold the 1-1-1 is by going straight into colossus and stay on one base. Problem is of course, that you might be far behind if anything else is done. 1 gate into expand or nexus first gets 'more stuff faster' but push it back in time, so you won't have colossus out in time to stop any sort of push so you are stuck with immortals - whereas you could otherwise get out 1 immortal 1-2 colossus (no range). Terrans are doing 1 base pushes because they can't easily be stopped by forcefields. If Z had the same option, they'd be doing the exact same thing. 1 gate expand IS greedy, because it sacrifice early tech and units for later econ and more units but much later tech. And that tech is what's needed. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=257589¤tpage=95#1899Youll get contained until thermal lance is done. By that time, the game is over. There is no greedy when it comes to 1-1-1. Early expos are always better. The expansion always pays for itself. Every1 keeps saying this. It might be correct, but then again it may not? I don't feel this has been proven and it seems rather uncreative to put this argument in the face of everyone who thinks otherwise!?
Well there are games out there but they might be a bit old. Consider that the result is pretty obvious. Tanks are really fucking good at containing. 1 Base colossus with thermal lance DOES eventually break you out of 1 base jail. But terran has 3 bases and the result is obvious.
Remember the SCV's can just go home once the contain is setup.
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I can't believe the thread turned into this. The only TvP all-in we saw today was a stim timing.
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On August 23 2011 23:29 Jaedong4thOSL wrote:
Why is Genius winning, Isn't 1-1-1 broken? Did virus use it?
Genius tried to make a macro game first up. Virus did a 2-1-1 allin and Genius died.
Then Genius did proxy stargate twice in a row. That's the state of PvT these days thanks to 1/1/1 
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EPT
