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On August 23 2011 22:13 scarper65 wrote:
How is bomber considered good? I don't understand
He's still the only player that can beat Mvp in a standard macro TvT marine/tank/viking game. The problem, IMO, is that he doesn't really seem to prepare that well for players he doesn't consider to be on his level. He expects that he can just crush them with his vastly superior mechanics, and while it works against most players, there are quite a few in code S that can handle him with preparation if he doesn't prepare as well.
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On August 23 2011 22:50 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:46 Kavas wrote:On August 23 2011 22:35 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:33 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:31 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:
Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. A few minutes is fine. Thats a telegraph. Problem is terran can type out that he is 1-1-1ing or 1 baseing before the game starts and still win at least half the time. That's very bold claim that has no proof. Well the one GSL commentator (Korean, former BW pro) tried to hold it 5x against a top random player (ST_Superstar or something), using Artosis and others' favorite build - 1 gate robo. ie he knew it was coming from the start. He lost 0-5. Assuming that's true, it still doesn't mean anything. He doesn't play SC2 full-time unlike Superstar. Former BW pro doesn't say much. For all we know he could be bad (and by bad I mean by good Korean standards) at both SC1 and SC2. Rainbow was a former A-teamer on SKT, nowadays he spends most of his time owning people in NA server, dating and preparing for military service. He even has trouble executing a proper 4 gate in PvP. Yellow was former BW pro as well. After 1/2 months of playing (according to project A), he's in Gold league (recently promoted to Masters if you believe the rumors). The korean commentator, forgive me I don't know his name right now, is really good at SC2. He is borderline pro level but for obvious reasons is not a pro if I am mistaken. Im trying to think of a foreigner equivalent but nothing is coming to mind.
Even though nobody knows how good he really is....Day9?
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On August 23 2011 22:49 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:42 xN.07)MaK wrote:
I'm confused by the fact that Genius proxy void ray twice.
Don't know wether he practiced it vs 1-1-1 or he just assumed Virus it's not an abusive player so he could proxy him with no 1-1-1.
In my mind, 1-1-1 counters proxy void ray hard, so it must be the second. Depends what 1-1-1 your going really. If your just going 1-1-1 without planning for the allin and you make vikings, yes you can hold good. If you just build a banshee and a tank and the VR's come then things aren't looking very good ^^.
Cancel the banshee, start a viking. Continue marine production. Pull scvs to repair as much as possible to buy time. You have lots of marines and a tank for stalkers, use them to stall.
If executed well you'll hold just fine. 1/1/1 naturally makes the second best unit vs voids (marines) and gets the tech for the best one (vikings obv). It's not quite the perfect counter to a 3gate void but it's a pretty damn good one.
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On August 23 2011 22:44 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:42 s3183529 wrote:
all the people who say Protoss should do this and that to stop 111 think they are so smart and better than all the pro protoss players in Korea yet they cannot provide any proof of anyone defending a properly executed - Korean standard 111.
Artosis is funny as well, he should show a tutorial of him defending a good 111 by a Korean. Then, he can bash GSL toss players for FE against 111. On one base too. Don;t forget that. Him and wolf can show us the way.
Yeah, they should stop saying Toss should do this do that, should go robo, should scout, should go phoenix. Go to Korea, freaking stop Bomber 1-1-1 and post some vods.
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So hey that's the result of maps without close position proxying stuff is so damn more easy.
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On August 23 2011 22:51 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:50 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:46 Kavas wrote:On August 23 2011 22:35 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:33 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:31 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:
Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. A few minutes is fine. Thats a telegraph. Problem is terran can type out that he is 1-1-1ing or 1 baseing before the game starts and still win at least half the time. That's very bold claim that has no proof. Well the one GSL commentator (Korean, former BW pro) tried to hold it 5x against a top random player (ST_Superstar or something), using Artosis and others' favorite build - 1 gate robo. ie he knew it was coming from the start. He lost 0-5. Assuming that's true, it still doesn't mean anything. He doesn't play SC2 full-time unlike Superstar. Former BW pro doesn't say much. For all we know he could be bad (and by bad I mean by good Korean standards) at both SC1 and SC2. Rainbow was a former A-teamer on SKT, nowadays he spends most of his time owning people in NA server, dating and preparing for military service. He even has trouble executing a proper 4 gate in PvP. Yellow was former BW pro as well. After 1/2 months of playing (according to project A), he's in Gold league (recently promoted to Masters if you believe the rumors). The korean commentator, forgive me I don't know his name right now, is really good at SC2. He is borderline pro level but for obvious reasons is not a pro if I am mistaken. Im trying to think of a foreigner equivalent but nothing is coming to mind. Even though nobody knows how good he really is....Day9?
As much as I love that guy. Better. Though probably not in RTS thinking.
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On August 23 2011 22:49 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:46 Kavas wrote:On August 23 2011 22:35 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:33 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:31 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:
Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. A few minutes is fine. Thats a telegraph. Problem is terran can type out that he is 1-1-1ing or 1 baseing before the game starts and still win at least half the time. That's very bold claim that has no proof. Well the one GSL commentator (Korean, former BW pro) tried to hold it 5x against a top random player (ST_Superstar or something), using Artosis and others' favorite build - 1 gate robo. ie he knew it was coming from the start. He lost 0-5. Assuming that's true, it still doesn't mean anything. He doesn't play SC2 full-time unlike Superstar. Former BW pro doesn't say much. For all we know he could be bad (and by bad I mean by good Korean standards) at both SC1 and SC2. Rainbow was a former A-teamer on SKT, nowadays he spends most of his time owning people in NA server, dating and preparing for military service. He even has trouble executing a proper 4 gate in PvP. Yellow was former BW pro as well. After 1/2 months of playing (according to project A), he's in Gold league (recently promoted to Masters if you believe the rumors). Well its hard to find examples of people failing using shitty strategies. I mean, I can't find an example of someone trying to mothership rush a 1/1/1 and failing either. People know - and have known for ages - that an early expo is the best chance against a 1/1/1. So any attempted defence you look for will involve one of them.
That's not what I meant. You're dragging the episode of an amateur versus a pro as an example of 1 gate robo not working. I've seen the same build (and some others) work against 1-1-1 perfectly fine, executed by Puzzle and Hero, against others Grandmaster (and real pros) on their stream.
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Then why does it never work in tournament games? Why don't they even try it?
I've seen pretty much every supposed counter in the book fail on Huk's stream if we wanna go into ladder territory.
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On August 23 2011 22:56 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:49 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:46 Kavas wrote:On August 23 2011 22:35 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:33 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:31 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:
Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. A few minutes is fine. Thats a telegraph. Problem is terran can type out that he is 1-1-1ing or 1 baseing before the game starts and still win at least half the time. That's very bold claim that has no proof. Well the one GSL commentator (Korean, former BW pro) tried to hold it 5x against a top random player (ST_Superstar or something), using Artosis and others' favorite build - 1 gate robo. ie he knew it was coming from the start. He lost 0-5. Assuming that's true, it still doesn't mean anything. He doesn't play SC2 full-time unlike Superstar. Former BW pro doesn't say much. For all we know he could be bad (and by bad I mean by good Korean standards) at both SC1 and SC2. Rainbow was a former A-teamer on SKT, nowadays he spends most of his time owning people in NA server, dating and preparing for military service. He even has trouble executing a proper 4 gate in PvP. Yellow was former BW pro as well. After 1/2 months of playing (according to project A), he's in Gold league (recently promoted to Masters if you believe the rumors). Well its hard to find examples of people failing using shitty strategies. I mean, I can't find an example of someone trying to mothership rush a 1/1/1 and failing either. People know - and have known for ages - that an early expo is the best chance against a 1/1/1. So any attempted defence you look for will involve one of them. That's not what I meant. You're dragging the episode of an amateur versus a pro as an example of 1 gate robo not working. I've seen the same build (and some others) work against 1-1-1 perfectly fine, executed by Puzzle and Hero, against others Grandmaster (and real pros) on their stream.
They only holds it a few times, and thanks to Terran making mistakes. I bet no one can stop Bomber 111. Anyway, PvT is gonna be 1base v 1base forever until Blizz fix it or s.o. try something unorthodox like Carriers? haha
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On August 23 2011 22:44 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:41 clusen wrote:
A high eco bling bust fails horribly if the opponent knows it's coming a few minutes beforehand because he will be building factory units, Tanks with siege or BFH counter it pretty hard with a wall. You can't tech switch to siege or blue flame that quickly if you're FEing. Watch Jinro vs Morrow or especially Jinro vs July. He built the craziest wall in Starcraft history, then misread July as he all-ined off 2 base and completely destroyed Jinro.
Haven't seen July vs Jinro but if you already say that Jinro misread July and wasn't prepared...:p
Vs Morrow he didn't know it was coming and went fast Medivacs, which is really greedy, instead of playing safe and adding factory units. Morrow even said after the game that he knew Jinro would do this so he countered Jinros style.
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On August 23 2011 22:56 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:49 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:46 Kavas wrote:On August 23 2011 22:35 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:33 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:31 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:30 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 22:25 sleepingdog wrote:
Like DTs: DTs work if the opponent doesn't get any detection. He knows its coming? He prepares properly? Freewin. Yes, that's a cheese. An all-in is a timing push that crucially sacrifices economy, and has a chance of working even if the opponent sees it coming a few minutes beforehand. A few minutes is fine. Thats a telegraph. Problem is terran can type out that he is 1-1-1ing or 1 baseing before the game starts and still win at least half the time. That's very bold claim that has no proof. Well the one GSL commentator (Korean, former BW pro) tried to hold it 5x against a top random player (ST_Superstar or something), using Artosis and others' favorite build - 1 gate robo. ie he knew it was coming from the start. He lost 0-5. Assuming that's true, it still doesn't mean anything. He doesn't play SC2 full-time unlike Superstar. Former BW pro doesn't say much. For all we know he could be bad (and by bad I mean by good Korean standards) at both SC1 and SC2. Rainbow was a former A-teamer on SKT, nowadays he spends most of his time owning people in NA server, dating and preparing for military service. He even has trouble executing a proper 4 gate in PvP. Yellow was former BW pro as well. After 1/2 months of playing (according to project A), he's in Gold league (recently promoted to Masters if you believe the rumors). Well its hard to find examples of people failing using shitty strategies. I mean, I can't find an example of someone trying to mothership rush a 1/1/1 and failing either. People know - and have known for ages - that an early expo is the best chance against a 1/1/1. So any attempted defence you look for will involve one of them. That's not what I meant. You're dragging the episode of an amateur versus a pro as an example of 1 gate robo not working. I've seen the same build (and some others) work against 1-1-1 perfectly fine, executed by Puzzle and Hero, against others Grandmaster (and real pros) on their stream.
The problem is that in tournament play pro's come out with variations of what you see on ladder. And every variation has a completely different response. Basically you have to respond to your opponents variation before they have even committed to one yet. And that's tricky.
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On August 23 2011 22:42 xN.07)MaK wrote:
In my mind, 1-1-1 counters proxy void ray hard, so it must be the second.
I'm not sure about that.
Don't forget that 111 is a terribly greedy tech build. You get a reactor on your rax while building the factory, then the marine production starts when the factory is done and starts its techlab, while you build a starport.
Any quick unit massing push like 3 gates stargate (I think even 4 gates, and perhaps even 3 gates but that's just in my theorycrafty mind) should crush this hard, even if the T has the time to build a viking (usually the viking will start when the push hits and is dead on arrival). The marines have no stim and will get crushed by forcefields, then the tanks will die to void rays.
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On August 23 2011 22:57 Yaotzin wrote:
Then why does it never work in tournament games? Why don't they even try it?
I've seen pretty much every supposed counter in the book fail on Huk's stream if we wanna go into ladder territory.
Puzzle beat FXOasd recently with it on the GSTL.
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On August 23 2011 22:52 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:49 Zorgaz wrote:On August 23 2011 22:42 xN.07)MaK wrote:
I'm confused by the fact that Genius proxy void ray twice.
Don't know wether he practiced it vs 1-1-1 or he just assumed Virus it's not an abusive player so he could proxy him with no 1-1-1.
In my mind, 1-1-1 counters proxy void ray hard, so it must be the second. Depends what 1-1-1 your going really. If your just going 1-1-1 without planning for the allin and you make vikings, yes you can hold good. If you just build a banshee and a tank and the VR's come then things aren't looking very good ^^. Cancel the banshee, start a viking. Continue marine production. Pull scvs to repair as much as possible to buy time. You have lots of marines and a tank for stalkers, use them to stall. If executed well you'll hold just fine. 1/1/1 naturally makes the second best unit vs voids (marines) and gets the tech for the best one (vikings obv). It's not quite the perfect counter to a 3gate void but it's a pretty damn good one.
The thing is that if you have a viking when the voidrays come you can ward them, not letting them burn down your front. If you however just start the viking when you see them coming there is a risk that the voidrays opens up the front and that the protoss players can charge in with zealots. ( Usually you don't have ST for the tank, i atleast don't get it till i have the 3rd tank building) and then the tanks don't defend it as well.
And kiting zealots with marines while kiting voidrays with vikings is HARD. While the P just A-moves in the zealots (Not much else to do with them when their chasing the marines ^^) and then micros the voidrays.
Not saying you can't hold, but I atleast think it can be quite difficult.
And now i didn't even mention FF's 
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On August 23 2011 23:00 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:57 Yaotzin wrote:
Then why does it never work in tournament games? Why don't they even try it?
I've seen pretty much every supposed counter in the book fail on Huk's stream if we wanna go into ladder territory. Puzzle beat FXOasd recently with it on the GSTL.
Yeah, And asd donate 3 banshees to Phoenix before the push. Even Artosis said it was badly excuted by asd. Stop using examples where Terran made mistakes.
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It certainly used to but after all the void/warpgate nerfs it doesn't anymore.
I mean, if you proxy it and it doesn't get scouted? Yeah, sure. But that's an unreliable cheese. If you straight up 3gate void and they see it early they can hold very easily with bunkers+marines.
A cheese being the only counter to something is obviously broken.
And kiting zealots with marines while kiting voidrays with vikings is HARD. While the P just A-moves in the zealots (Not much else to do with them when their chasing the marines ^^) and then micros the voidrays.
Not saying you can't hold, but I atleast think it can be quite difficult.
And now i didn't even mention FF's
Well I'm talking about situations where you see it in reasonable time. If you get blindsided by 3 voids then yeah...that's obviously not a reliable counter to anything though so it's not relevant.
And sure, it's hard. I said as much. But we're talking about balance issues at the top level of play. They can and do kite zealots and voids at the same time. So it doesn't work.
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On August 23 2011 23:02 Yaotzin wrote:
It certainly used to but after all the void/warpgate nerfs it doesn't anymore.
I mean, if you proxy it and it doesn't get scouted? Yeah, sure. But that's an unreliable cheese. If you straight up 3gate void and they see it early they can hold very easily with bunkers+marines.
A cheese being the only counter to something is obviously broken.
That or they just walk out with a few marines and kill your stargate as you have very little to defend it before WG finishes
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On August 23 2011 23:00 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:57 Yaotzin wrote:
Then why does it never work in tournament games? Why don't they even try it?
I've seen pretty much every supposed counter in the book fail on Huk's stream if we wanna go into ladder territory. Puzzle beat FXOasd recently with it on the GSTL.
Thats another one of those "I hope terran horribly botches this" games I think.
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On August 23 2011 23:04 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 23:00 Kavas wrote:On August 23 2011 22:57 Yaotzin wrote:
Then why does it never work in tournament games? Why don't they even try it?
I've seen pretty much every supposed counter in the book fail on Huk's stream if we wanna go into ladder territory. Puzzle beat FXOasd recently with it on the GSTL. Thats another one of those "I hope terran horribly botches this" games I think.
3 free banshees, 200 orbital energy. Yup.
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There's a reason we have a designated balance thread now, and it's not so that I can read "omg completely broken" post in every thread. -_-
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EPT
