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On August 23 2011 22:08 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:04 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:03 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 21:57 zeehar wrote:On August 23 2011 21:57 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 21:55 zeehar wrote:On August 23 2011 21:54 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 21:53 canastaa wrote:Yes genius give them of their own medicine >  What medicine? Virus didn't do 1/1/1 in any of these games, the first match was a tank/marine push. with 20 scvs... a push? really? get out of here... I like that you can't count. what, is the number closer to 0 then? It was around 10. Look, are we honestly going to call every build that incorporates tanks a 1/1/1 all-in? He didn't get banshees, he didn't get a raven, he got stim and a medivac. That's classic biomech, and it was a timing push to kill the expo and contain. Of course your bring SCVs on a push, it doesn't automatically make it a Bitbybit all-in. it should just be called a tank - marine allin. The banshees, the Ravens, the SCV's. These are just variations. It can be banshee+marine too though with no tanks. ie the Polt timing attack, marines banshees raven. At heart they're all mass marine allins with support units.
You need a lot of Marauders if you don't get Tanks, the idea is the combination of PDD and stimmed Marauders destroys all the Stalkers in an instant so your Banshees and kiting Marauders can rip apart the rest of the ground force.
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Well yes. As I've always said they're all the same with mild variations. Make tons of marines, then make something else to stop Protoss forcefielding or stalker-kiting your marines. They have no 3rd way of dealing with marines, so you win!
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On August 23 2011 22:14 Koshi wrote:
Can we please stop calling every allin 1/1/1 now. It really cheapens the real 1/1/1 strategy.
Terran all-in. Better?
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So looking at the top end of the bracket and the results... Polt going to the finals? im so excited :D
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On August 23 2011 22:10 zeehar wrote:
oh yeah, pulling ten workers from one semi saturated base is not an all in, because terran has mules. i'm stupid.
All in = if push does not kill opponent, you cannot recover.
Bringing some SCVs is like cutting worker production to have a bigger army, it's an economic sacrifice.
Puma vs MC on XNC was an honest-to-god all-in, because he had 5 production buildings on one base and he stopped worker production in order to pump more marines.
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On August 23 2011 22:12 Psycosquirrel wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:07 beute wrote:On August 23 2011 21:58 Schenkee wrote:
so on another note, huk plays a terran 2morow, so i suppose hes gona have to void ray all in :/ The problem with this is, if the terran expects stargate play they will simply skip the banshee/raven and replace it with vikings. as soon as they see protoss not expanding they can safely go for vikings instead of banshees/raven. Cause why would a protoss forfeit the extra income from a 1 gate expand? cause they wanna tech, what do they tech if they think the terran is going 1-1-1? fast colossus or stargate, what is good against colossus or stargate? yeah vikings. That said, genius didnt win against 1-1-1 today. So I dont know why people expect void ray all in to win 100% of the time against 1-1-1. I dont think it will. After today, i'd expect terrans to start scouting agressively for this and adjust accordingly. Who knows though, maybe the stim timing changes that went through a while ago will make this proxy void ray too hard to handle. I think the whole idea of this proxy stargate is to hit before the 111 can start to ramp up, before the starport's production can really get going. Im not good enough with timing, but I get the feeling your first starport unit would be about halfway done by the time that rush could hit.
The first void is done around 6:20 but you dont want to reveal it. The gates finish, along with WG, at 7:20 or so? Again I failed to look at the ingame clock 
I think 3gate void ray is strong against standard marauder expands but it is very weak against 1-1-1 since 1-1-1 featured marines and a bunker and a starport which can be used to make a viking.
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On August 23 2011 22:11 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:07 minhbq299 wrote:
Protoss has no way to know the information beforehand.
Obs or Hallucination. If you don't scout an FE, ensure you will be able to peek into his base before minute 6. If you want scans, switch to Terran.
you need a super fast robo by then... remember observers are quite slow...
to get to a base by the 6th minute, the robo has to be started at roughly 4 minutes.
robo: 65 seconds
observer with 1cb: 30 seconds (normally 40 seconds build time)
and a minimum of 30 seconds for flying to the base (on say XNC)
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Why the fuck are zergs even commenting on PvT balance? You didn't solve your own balance issues... protoss lose KA and warpgate timings.... and you got a huge infestor buff.
All of a sudden you think we should start innovating? I've seen every unit in the game try to defend 1/1/1 - Phoenixes, voids, stalkers, zealots, sentries, DTs, Archons - Basically anything that you can get by the time the push comes, I've seen it trying to defend 1/1/1 - and almost always it gets crushed unless the terran makes a huge mistake. Protoss are generally pretty creative, we didn't just ignore an insanely good unit like the infestor.....
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On August 23 2011 22:14 Huragius wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:08 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:04 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:03 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 21:57 zeehar wrote:On August 23 2011 21:57 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 21:55 zeehar wrote:On August 23 2011 21:54 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 21:53 canastaa wrote:Yes genius give them of their own medicine > What medicine? Virus didn't do 1/1/1 in any of these games, the first match was a tank/marine push. with 20 scvs... a push? really? get out of here... I like that you can't count. what, is the number closer to 0 then? It was around 10. Look, are we honestly going to call every build that incorporates tanks a 1/1/1 all-in? He didn't get banshees, he didn't get a raven, he got stim and a medivac. That's classic biomech, and it was a timing push to kill the expo and contain. Of course your bring SCVs on a push, it doesn't automatically make it a Bitbybit all-in. it should just be called a tank - marine allin. The banshees, the Ravens, the SCV's. These are just variations. It can be banshee+marine too though with no tanks. ie the Polt timing attack, marines banshees raven. At heart they're all mass marine allins with support units. Always same people, always same whines about "all-ins".
wish there was ignore button in here, reading posts of this Yaotzin guy makes my IQ drop
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On August 23 2011 22:13 scarper65 wrote:
How is bomber considered good? I don't understand
Bomber was good. The TvT metagame has changed and Bomber has struggled to adapt.
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On August 23 2011 22:15 Loodah wrote:
Why the fuck are zergs even commenting on PvT balance? You didn't solve your own balance issues... protoss lose KA and warpgate timings.... and you got a huge infestor nerf.
All of a sudden you think we should start innovating? I've seen every unit in the game try to defend 1/1/1 - Phoenixes, voids, stalkers, zealots, sentries, DTs, Archons - Basically anything that you can get by the time the push comes, I've seen it trying to defend 1/1/1 - and almost always it gets crushed unless the terran makes a huge mistake. Protoss are generally pretty creative, we didn't just ignore an insanely good unit like the infestor.....
infestor buff you mean, and yes.
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On August 23 2011 22:10 zeehar wrote:
oh yeah, pulling ten workers from one semi saturated base is not an all in, because terran has mules. i'm stupid.
Terran never need to do an all-in to win a game. That race is different.
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On August 23 2011 22:14 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2011 22:08 Yaotzin wrote:On August 23 2011 22:04 Medrea wrote:On August 23 2011 22:03 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 21:57 zeehar wrote:On August 23 2011 21:57 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 21:55 zeehar wrote:On August 23 2011 21:54 yeint wrote:On August 23 2011 21:53 canastaa wrote:Yes genius give them of their own medicine > What medicine? Virus didn't do 1/1/1 in any of these games, the first match was a tank/marine push. with 20 scvs... a push? really? get out of here... I like that you can't count. what, is the number closer to 0 then? It was around 10. Look, are we honestly going to call every build that incorporates tanks a 1/1/1 all-in? He didn't get banshees, he didn't get a raven, he got stim and a medivac. That's classic biomech, and it was a timing push to kill the expo and contain. Of course your bring SCVs on a push, it doesn't automatically make it a Bitbybit all-in. it should just be called a tank - marine allin. The banshees, the Ravens, the SCV's. These are just variations. It can be banshee+marine too though with no tanks. ie the Polt timing attack, marines banshees raven. At heart they're all mass marine allins with support units. You need a lot of Marauders if you don't get Tanks, the idea is the combination of PDD and stimmed Marauders destroys all the Stalkers in an instant so your Banshees and kiting Marauders can rip apart the rest of the ground force.
You don't need marauders if you have PDD because the only downside to marines early on is that they can be kited. If you PDD their nat this is no longer an issue. Marauders just makes for a weaker push that's vulnerable to void rays to boot.
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On August 23 2011 22:08 yeint wrote:
(and really, I object to calling it an all-in if it hits with 10 SCVs around the 8 minute mark. It's guaranteed to at least kill the expo or contain, and you can expo behind it. It's not all in unless you add enough production to completely proclude a reasonably timed expo. Just because a build isn't an FE doesn't mean it can't ever lead to a midgame)
This is a major part of why toss are so upset with this 111 attack. If toss or zerg pulls 10 or 15 workers on an attack, its for sure an all in. There's no recovering from that. But terran can, thanks to the mule, and as you state even expand behind the attack. As for the production part, if I remember correctly game 1 of Mc vs polt at gamescon, polt had a ractored rax, two additional rax, a starport and a factory. What would be all in then?
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On August 23 2011 22:14 minhbq299 wrote:
You hardly have higher than 40% chance of winning it. Unlike other all in, If we knew it coming before the game start. it's like 100% crush it
I think you're confusing all ins with cheesing.
You should never be able to 100% crush an all-in just by knowing that it's coming. All-ins are basically really strong timing pushes, they don't depend on surprise.
The complaint I was responding to was "we have no idea which variation it is because we can't scout". Yes you can.
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On August 23 2011 22:13 scarper65 wrote:
How is bomber considered good? I don't understand
Because he can crush players like IM MVP and Puzzle with ease.
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Polt vs Nestea finals. Let it happen!
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EPT
