On August 23 2011 21:58 Supamang wrote: Was that even the 1-1-1 build? Game 2, didnt Virus have 3 barracks? And in both games didnt he have marauders? I thought 1-1-1 was marines, tanks, banshee, raven along with SCVs?
In the traditional sense, no. Game 1 was a 111-style push, but Virus didn't really get starport units to support it, instead getting stim+combat shields. Game 2 was I believe going to transition into another weird 111 push with cloaked banshees and marauders, but that build kinda sucked. Then game 3 was totally not a 111 at all obviously.
I feel the tank push is notably different. Its a lot easier to defend because you don't have to insure that either the banshees die or you have enough stalkers to kill them after everything else is dead. That's a big part of the 1/1/1 is deciding to target fire tanks or banshees and then still having enough to finish whatever you don't because just one or two banshees can win, and tanks can set up a contain with reinforcements.
On August 23 2011 21:58 Schenkee wrote: so on another note, huk plays a terran 2morow, so i suppose hes gona have to void ray all in :/
The problem with this is, if the terran expects stargate play they will simply skip the banshee/raven and replace it with vikings. as soon as they see protoss not expanding they can safely go for vikings instead of banshees/raven. Cause why would a protoss forfeit the extra income from a 1 gate expand? cause they wanna tech, what do they tech if they think the terran is going 1-1-1? fast colossus or stargate, what is good against colossus or stargate? yeah vikings.
That said, genius didnt win against 1-1-1 today. So I dont know why people expect void ray all in to win 100% of the time against 1-1-1.
On August 23 2011 21:53 canastaa wrote: Yes genius give them of their own medicine >
What medicine? Virus didn't do 1/1/1 in any of these games, the first match was a tank/marine push.
with 20 scvs... a push? really? get out of here...
I like that you can't count.
what, is the number closer to 0 then?
It was around 10.
Look, are we honestly going to call every build that incorporates tanks a 1/1/1 all-in? He didn't get banshees, he didn't get a raven, he got stim and a medivac. That's classic biomech, and it was a timing push to kill the expo and contain. Of course your bring SCVs on a push, it doesn't automatically make it a Bitbybit all-in.
In the long history of starcraft, I dont think its ever been considered standard to pull half your worker line for a "Push". A push is like steady application of pressure, like a TvZ tank push, where you crawl forward slowly with bunkers and siege tanks. I agree it was not a traditional 111, however it did follow a similar line of thinking to the 111 pushes.
On August 23 2011 21:53 canastaa wrote: Yes genius give them of their own medicine >
What medicine? Virus didn't do 1/1/1 in any of these games, the first match was a tank/marine push.
with 20 scvs... a push? really? get out of here...
I like that you can't count.
what, is the number closer to 0 then?
It was around 10.
Look, are we honestly going to call every build that incorporates tanks a 1/1/1 all-in? He didn't get banshees, he didn't get a raven, he got stim and a medivac. That's classic biomech, and it was a timing push to kill the expo and contain. Of course your bring SCVs on a push, it doesn't automatically make it a Bitbybit all-in.
it should just be called a tank - marine allin. The banshees, the Ravens, the SCV's. These are just variations.
The think is banshee and raven variations. If protoss know that they only face tank and marine, it's not too hard. but 111 can have soo many variation, you can either op for cloak banshee or not, either raven PDD or not, mass marine or not. Protoss has no way to know the information beforehand. It's funny with the PDD, they block all stalker shot from protoss while having their army crush by sentry zealot, but after that, banshee come in and kill everything
On August 23 2011 21:53 canastaa wrote: Yes genius give them of their own medicine >
What medicine? Virus didn't do 1/1/1 in any of these games, the first match was a tank/marine push.
with 20 scvs... a push? really? get out of here...
I like that you can't count.
what, is the number closer to 0 then?
It was around 10.
Look, are we honestly going to call every build that incorporates tanks a 1/1/1 all-in? He didn't get banshees, he didn't get a raven, he got stim and a medivac. That's classic biomech, and it was a timing push to kill the expo and contain. Of course your bring SCVs on a push, it doesn't automatically make it a Bitbybit all-in.
it should just be called a tank - marine allin. The banshees, the Ravens, the SCV's. These are just variations.
So the Terran is to blame because you can't hold against a tank marine all-in with nothing but slow zealots and 3 sentries?
(and really, I object to calling it an all-in if it hits with 10 SCVs around the 8 minute mark. It's guaranteed to at least kill the expo or contain, and you can expo behind it. It's not all in unless you add enough production to completely proclude a reasonably timed expo. Just because a build isn't an FE doesn't mean it can't ever lead to a midgame)
On August 23 2011 21:53 canastaa wrote: Yes genius give them of their own medicine >
What medicine? Virus didn't do 1/1/1 in any of these games, the first match was a tank/marine push.
with 20 scvs... a push? really? get out of here...
I like that you can't count.
what, is the number closer to 0 then?
It was around 10.
Look, are we honestly going to call every build that incorporates tanks a 1/1/1 all-in? He didn't get banshees, he didn't get a raven, he got stim and a medivac. That's classic biomech, and it was a timing push to kill the expo and contain. Of course your bring SCVs on a push, it doesn't automatically make it a Bitbybit all-in.
it should just be called a tank - marine allin. The banshees, the Ravens, the SCV's. These are just variations.
It can be banshee+marine too though with no tanks. ie the Polt timing attack, marines banshees raven. At heart they're all mass marine allins with support units.
On August 23 2011 21:53 canastaa wrote: Yes genius give them of their own medicine >
What medicine? Virus didn't do 1/1/1 in any of these games, the first match was a tank/marine push.
with 20 scvs... a push? really? get out of here...
I like that you can't count.
what, is the number closer to 0 then?
It was around 10.
Look, are we honestly going to call every build that incorporates tanks a 1/1/1 all-in? He didn't get banshees, he didn't get a raven, he got stim and a medivac. That's classic biomech, and it was a timing push to kill the expo and contain. Of course your bring SCVs on a push, it doesn't automatically make it a Bitbybit all-in.
it should just be called a tank - marine allin. The banshees, the Ravens, the SCV's. These are just variations.
It can be banshee+marine too though with no tanks. ie the Polt timing attack, marines banshees raven. At heart they're all mass marine allins with support units.
exactly
Way more important is, if the marines have stim. This is what makes the pushes like 100% different to approach. Stimmed marines own zealots so hard it's not even funny, you absolutely need aoe to deal with that.
On August 23 2011 21:58 Schenkee wrote: so on another note, huk plays a terran 2morow, so i suppose hes gona have to void ray all in :/
The problem with this is, if the terran expects stargate play they will simply skip the banshee/raven and replace it with vikings. as soon as they see protoss not expanding they can safely go for vikings instead of banshees/raven. Cause why would a protoss forfeit the extra income from a 1 gate expand? cause they wanna tech, what do they tech if they think the terran is going 1-1-1? fast colossus or stargate, what is good against colossus or stargate? yeah vikings.
That said, genius didnt win against 1-1-1 today. So I dont know why people expect void ray all in to win 100% of the time against 1-1-1.
I dont think it will. After today, i'd expect terrans to start scouting agressively for this and adjust accordingly. Who knows though, maybe the stim timing changes that went through a while ago will make this proxy void ray too hard to handle. I think the whole idea of this proxy stargate is to hit before the 111 can start to ramp up, before the starport's production can really get going. Im not good enough with timing, but I get the feeling your first starport unit would be about halfway done by the time that rush could hit.
Sad to see Bomber and MMA fall. Looking back at the comments it's pretty funny though. Everyone was pretty much writing Bomber in for Ro4.
From what I'm hearing though MMA continues to make mistakes against Polt. I think Polt's in his head after the 4-0 thrashing of MMA and well he isn't playing right against him. And any great player, like Polt, will jump on that and exploit it so good job to Polt for that and congrats on that.
Bomber I don't even wanna know anymore.
I think Genius is the only right choice I had today lol. Hoping MVP and HuK make up for it.
On August 23 2011 21:53 canastaa wrote: Yes genius give them of their own medicine >
What medicine? Virus didn't do 1/1/1 in any of these games, the first match was a tank/marine push.
with 20 scvs... a push? really? get out of here...
I like that you can't count.
what, is the number closer to 0 then?
It was around 10.
Look, are we honestly going to call every build that incorporates tanks a 1/1/1 all-in? He didn't get banshees, he didn't get a raven, he got stim and a medivac. That's classic biomech, and it was a timing push to kill the expo and contain. Of course your bring SCVs on a push, it doesn't automatically make it a Bitbybit all-in.
it should just be called a tank - marine allin. The banshees, the Ravens, the SCV's. These are just variations.
So the Terran is to blame because you can't hold against a tank marine all-in with nothing but slow zealots and 3 sentries?
(and really, I object to calling it an all-in if it hits with 10 SCVs around the 8 minute mark. It's guaranteed to at least kill the expo or contain, and you can expo behind it. It's not all in unless you add enough production to completely proclude a reasonably timed expo. Just because a build isn't an FE doesn't mean it can't ever lead to a midgame)
If pulling 10 workers is not an all-in then SC2 is not a game I want to be playing to be honest.
On August 23 2011 21:53 canastaa wrote: Yes genius give them of their own medicine >
What medicine? Virus didn't do 1/1/1 in any of these games, the first match was a tank/marine push.
with 20 scvs... a push? really? get out of here...
I like that you can't count.
what, is the number closer to 0 then?
It was around 10.
Look, are we honestly going to call every build that incorporates tanks a 1/1/1 all-in? He didn't get banshees, he didn't get a raven, he got stim and a medivac. That's classic biomech, and it was a timing push to kill the expo and contain. Of course your bring SCVs on a push, it doesn't automatically make it a Bitbybit all-in.
it should just be called a tank - marine allin. The banshees, the Ravens, the SCV's. These are just variations.
It can be banshee+marine too though with no tanks. ie the Polt timing attack, marines banshees raven. At heart they're all mass marine allins with support units.
EPT
