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Ok, lets assume that ghosts have zero use against muta/bling/ling
okay lets just assume this for the rest of your argument. it's important
So you are saying that the infestor is op because zergs can blindly make it and it will serve of some use? Sure, maybe that's true.
My argument is not that infestors are necessarily op, i will explain this more later. But we both agree that blindly making infestors might be useful in TvZ.
But the same can be said about the ghost in TvP, or the High templar in both PvZ and PvT.
this analogy doesn't really work because:
let's say the terran blindly makes ghosts. is this a good move? probably yes because all protoss units have shields you can emp. Now what does the protoss do to counter this? make HT and try to get off feedbacks before emp.
likewise if the protoss blindly makes HTs, is this a good move? probably yes because psi storm rips apart bio (the most common unit comp in this matchup). Now what does the terrans do to counter this? make ghosts to try to emp the templars before they can cast psi storm on bio or feedback on medivac/thors.
so there is a synergy in which
when P makes HTs, T responds with ghosts to counter
when T makes ghosts, P responds with HTs to counter
Also, have you ever considered that the reason why zergs can blindly make infestors is because no terrans right now make ghosts?
This problem with the ghost/infestor is that I believe it lacks the synergy of ghost/HTs in PvT.
When the zerg incorporates infestors, the Terran makes ghosts to counter. But when the terran makes a ghost, the zerg just carries on with its normal composition (ling/bling/muta). It doesn't need to react in a particular way to counter except make a overseer if the terran gets cloak. (note we assumed it doesn't' have a role as you said, that's my argument but I know you probably disagree). But when the zerg makes infestors, you need ghosts to emp/snipe them.
Basically I'm saying that infestors allow zergs to dictate the matchup because they are useful in so many situations (fungal vs bio, neural vs mech) while the role of the ghost in this matchup is limited and exists purely as a counter to infestor/broodlord. Hence I believe this to be the main reason why pros always don't make enough ghosts in time because it's always a reaction to your opponent's infestors after it has already been scouted.
Bottom line is I think ghosts need a more active role in TvZ to encourage players to make them more regularly. I know people in this thread have argued that blindly making ghosts in this matchup is great but I just don't see it amonst pros and I'm not convinced that it's useful. If it's really useful, wouldn't zerg pros like Nestea and DRG encourage their teammates to regularly keep ghosts in their army composition every game? I could be wrong but again if you know any pro terrans who regularly makes ghosts in the matchup and not merely as a counter to infestors or broodlords, I would be interested to know.
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Honestly the series really didn't show ghost vs BL Infestor well.
As others said, if Rain EMP instead of sniped infestors, he would have had a much better chance.
Game 5 he saw the greater spire but didn't make vikings or ghosts until much later >.<.
So overall the games didn't really show case ghosts.
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On July 28 2011 15:52 JoeSchmoe wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok, lets assume that ghosts have zero use against muta/bling/ling okay lets just assume this for the rest of your argument. it's important So you are saying that the infestor is op because zergs can blindly make it and it will serve of some use? Sure, maybe that's true. My argument is not that infestors are necessarily op, i will explain this more later. But we both agree that blindly making infestors might be useful in TvZ. But the same can be said about the ghost in TvP, or the High templar in both PvZ and PvT. this analogy doesn't really work because: let's say the terran blindly makes ghosts. is this a good move? probably yes because all protoss units have shields you can emp. Now what does the protoss do to counter this? make HT and try to get off feedbacks before emp. likewise if the protoss blindly makes HTs, is this a good move? probably yes because psi storm rips apart bio (the most common unit comp in this matchup). Now what does the terrans do to counter this? make ghosts to try to emp the templars before they can cast psi storm on bio or feedback on medivac/thors. so there is a synergy in which when P makes HTs, T responds with ghosts to counter when T makes ghosts, P responds with HTs to counter Also, have you ever considered that the reason why zergs can blindly make infestors is because no terrans right now make ghosts? This problem with the ghost/infestor is that I believe it lacks the synergy of ghost/HTs in PvT. When the zerg incorporates infestors, the Terran makes ghosts to counter. But when the terran makes a ghost, the zerg just carries on with its normal composition (ling/bling/muta). It doesn't need to react in a particular way to counter except make a overseer if the terran gets cloak. (note we assumed it doesn't' have a role as you said, that's my argument but I know you probably disagree). But when the zerg makes infestors, you need ghosts to emp/snipe them. Basically I'm saying that infestors allow zergs to dictate the matchup because they are useful in so many situations (fungal vs bio, neural vs mech) while the role of the ghost in this matchup is limited and exists purely as a counter to infestor/broodlord. Hence I believe this to be the main reason why pros always don't make enough ghosts in time because it's always a reaction to your opponent's infestors after it has already been scouted. Bottom line is I think ghosts need a more active role in TvZ to encourage players to make them more regularly. I know people in this thread have argued that blindly making ghosts in this matchup is great but I just don't see it amonst pros and I'm not convinced that it's useful. If it's really useful, wouldn't zerg pros like Nestea and DRG encourage their teammates to regularly keep ghosts in their army composition every game? I could be wrong but again if you know any pro terrans who regularly makes ghosts in the matchup and not merely as a counter to infestors or broodlords, I would be interested to know.
But ghosts are reactionary in TvP. You get ghosts to nullify his units (immortals/archons/ht). A ghost does not serve much purpose against a colossus army.
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Lol! Wow people are funny! How do zergs counter HT? How do zergs counter casters? They can't they build units with stronger armor (roaches). The infestor is such a volatile unit that even if you make a bunch of them they easily get wrecked by HT. 6 HT can take out 12 Infestors...that seems balanced. Zergs must be in a great position when attacking toss or terran. Where Terrans just have to have seige tanks and a bunch of vikings. Terran is the only race that has a HARD Counter for everything every other race has.
Lets not talk about balance, people just need to get better and stop complaining so much. How about you learn something new and stop following the crowd? Im Just Saying!
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On July 28 2011 10:07 Yew wrote:
People just say "oh get ghosts herp derp". Ghosts aren't an auto win. Ghosts don't have infinite energy either. You can't just cloak, snipe 5-6 broodlords and emp all the infestors too, lmao. Besides, even if you get all the infestors emp'd, then what? You can't attack into BLs with lings lol. Ghosts help, but they can't beat the composition alone.
ah right. are infestors a aoutowin either? i see alot zerg finally playing arround with them and using them alot. but just a verry little part of them would be able to actually "win" with them because everything comes down to controll. also infestors dont have infinity energy either. you post is pretty dumb...
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On July 28 2011 16:06 MrDudeMan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 15:52 JoeSchmoe wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Ok, lets assume that ghosts have zero use against muta/bling/ling okay lets just assume this for the rest of your argument. it's important So you are saying that the infestor is op because zergs can blindly make it and it will serve of some use? Sure, maybe that's true. My argument is not that infestors are necessarily op, i will explain this more later. But we both agree that blindly making infestors might be useful in TvZ. But the same can be said about the ghost in TvP, or the High templar in both PvZ and PvT. this analogy doesn't really work because: let's say the terran blindly makes ghosts. is this a good move? probably yes because all protoss units have shields you can emp. Now what does the protoss do to counter this? make HT and try to get off feedbacks before emp. likewise if the protoss blindly makes HTs, is this a good move? probably yes because psi storm rips apart bio (the most common unit comp in this matchup). Now what does the terrans do to counter this? make ghosts to try to emp the templars before they can cast psi storm on bio or feedback on medivac/thors. so there is a synergy in which when P makes HTs, T responds with ghosts to counter when T makes ghosts, P responds with HTs to counter Also, have you ever considered that the reason why zergs can blindly make infestors is because no terrans right now make ghosts? This problem with the ghost/infestor is that I believe it lacks the synergy of ghost/HTs in PvT. When the zerg incorporates infestors, the Terran makes ghosts to counter. But when the terran makes a ghost, the zerg just carries on with its normal composition (ling/bling/muta). It doesn't need to react in a particular way to counter except make a overseer if the terran gets cloak. (note we assumed it doesn't' have a role as you said, that's my argument but I know you probably disagree). But when the zerg makes infestors, you need ghosts to emp/snipe them. Basically I'm saying that infestors allow zergs to dictate the matchup because they are useful in so many situations (fungal vs bio, neural vs mech) while the role of the ghost in this matchup is limited and exists purely as a counter to infestor/broodlord. Hence I believe this to be the main reason why pros always don't make enough ghosts in time because it's always a reaction to your opponent's infestors after it has already been scouted. Bottom line is I think ghosts need a more active role in TvZ to encourage players to make them more regularly. I know people in this thread have argued that blindly making ghosts in this matchup is great but I just don't see it amonst pros and I'm not convinced that it's useful. If it's really useful, wouldn't zerg pros like Nestea and DRG encourage their teammates to regularly keep ghosts in their army composition every game? I could be wrong but again if you know any pro terrans who regularly makes ghosts in the matchup and not merely as a counter to infestors or broodlords, I would be interested to know. But ghosts are reactionary in TvP. You get ghosts to nullify his units (immortals/archons/ht). A ghost does not serve much purpose against a colossus army.
Remember sentries are also a huge part of the protoss army because of force fields. But assuming if your opponent makes no immortal/archons/ht/sentries (that's a lot of units already) and goes pure zealot/stalker/colossus, having 2 ghosts in your army is still game changing. of course against the colossus itself it's not so great but against the protoss ball, even emping 5 zealots and 2 stalkers is huge (that's ~400 instant damage). Going mid-late game, would you rather have a unit like a ghost which can also counter immortal/archon/ht/sentries should your opponent choose to make them or a marauder instead in your army composition for the same 2 supply?
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does this prove to anyone now that destiny is really good? 2 koreans beaten, what more do you want ?
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On July 28 2011 16:37 Superpower wrote:
does this prove to anyone now that destiny is really good? 2 koreans beaten, what more do you want ?
Win a tourney.
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On July 28 2011 16:31 SlaverR wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:07 Yew wrote:
People just say "oh get ghosts herp derp". Ghosts aren't an auto win. Ghosts don't have infinite energy either. You can't just cloak, snipe 5-6 broodlords and emp all the infestors too, lmao. Besides, even if you get all the infestors emp'd, then what? You can't attack into BLs with lings lol. Ghosts help, but they can't beat the composition alone. ah right. are infestors a aoutowin either? i see alot zerg finally playing arround with them and using them alot. but just a verry little part of them would be able to actually "win" with them because everything comes down to controll. also infestors dont have infinity energy either. you post is pretty dumb...
I never said infestors are autowin -.- It DOES come down to control, but people (mostly zergs) think that just making ghosts can beat infestor/broodlord, when it's not that simple.
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Despite all the smacktalk, i think it's very interesting that Destiny is really starting to put up a fight against most really good pro's he faces. His improvement lately is very impressive. 
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On July 28 2011 15:57 Goldfish wrote:
Honestly the series really didn't show ghost vs BL Infestor well.
As others said, if Rain EMP instead of sniped infestors, he would have had a much better chance.
Game 5 he saw the greater spire but didn't make vikings or ghosts until much later >.<.
So overall the games didn't really show case ghosts.
didn't you know that infestors users are more worried about them being killed off than being emp?
you can do so much with burrow+infestor even at zero energy
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Think the infestors were full energy so 2 kills are better then some emp'd, less fungals overall, he could however use np tough but there wasn't even enough emps total to emp all the infestors to deny the np.
*spoiler*
props to destiny winning x)
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Good to see that Zerg has finally found a composition that makes them decent vs both matchup and the cry train is here. If we had as much room for compositions as Terran and to some extent Protoss then we would probably try others. But we have fewer units, and Infestors has basically become the core unit for us. Tells you more about the other units off zerg and the two other races.
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On July 28 2011 16:24 WCBrownDFU wrote:
Lol! Wow people are funny! How do zergs counter HT? How do zergs counter casters? They can't they build units with stronger armor (roaches). The infestor is such a volatile unit that even if you make a bunch of them they easily get wrecked by HT. 6 HT can take out 12 Infestors...that seems balanced. Zergs must be in a great position when attacking toss or terran. Where Terrans just have to have seige tanks and a bunch of vikings. Terran is the only race that has a HARD Counter for everything every other race has.
Lets not talk about balance, people just need to get better and stop complaining so much. How about you learn something new and stop following the crowd? Im Just Saying!
One infestor can take out 12 HT. Also seems balanced 
+ Show Spoiler +jk obviously don't take that seriousyl
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Does anyone remember what rank/rating Destiny was before the fungal growth patch?
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On July 28 2011 17:19 iamke55 wrote:
Does anyone remember what rank/rating Destiny was before the fungal growth patch?
iirc he's been top 200 since around launch. He got into root by meeting catz on ladder a lot before the patch.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/1191653
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i love that since Destiny won, a huge balance discussion comes up.. God sakes guys, Destiny has improved a LOT in the past 2 months, he deserves all the wins hes getting, even if hes using a powerful strat.
Give him his respect.
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YES
Congrats to Destiny, too bad I missed everything, seemed like a close and intense matches. It was just too late for me, so I fell asleep.
It's nice seeing him win and it's not just coming from fanboy me. After all those unsuccessful tournament entries and all the hard work he put into starcraft he deserves not only more wins, but more respect to him as player and a person who can compete with the top tier pros. A lot of people just write him off when he goes to tournaments and I find it unfair.
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United States97276 Posts
I wonder who Destiny is going to get next? The Koreans stream all the time now so I'm sure they would pretty much all be up to playing a $50 showmatch. Maybe he can get someone like Guineapig. Random champion!
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Sure, the destiny fanboys can be annoying and straight up retarded, but the haters are just as bad.
''Just cause he beat bomber in a bo3 doesn't mean shit he was just shocked by his infestor usage''
Then when he beats Ace in a bo3, Rain in a bo5 and takes a bunch of games off HuK and Puzzle...
''He only won cause of lag obviously''
Then they are informed that except the Ace bo3, Destiny was the one playing with latency
''Clearly, infestors need a nerf''
Give a man some fucking credits.
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EPT
