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Granted that ghosts are not good in a lot of ZvT situations, especially early game if they're just massing low tech units.
But mid and late game, sniping is great against everything but lings, banes and roaches.
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On July 28 2011 10:53 DizzyDrone wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late. You're bringing up two unrelated arguments, but neither of them is a real problem. You can go Infestor against almost any unit composition. But is that any different then a Terran adding Medivacs to his army in the mid-game? They may not get the kills themselves, but they are certainly as valuable. Infestors are just a key part of Destiny's army composition. Now, you may have trouble scouting those 8 Infestors before they hatch. You can however scout the Zerg's extremely quick 4 vespane geisers, the lack of gas-heavy units or tech, the Infestation Pit, and the lack of units. More importantly, saving up for 8 infestors means the Zerg is sitting on 800 minerals and 1000 gas. Perhaps Terran players should work out a timing that hits before the Infestors arrive, as he's going to be extremely weak at that point. Here's the thing; The entire Ghost argument is nonsense. Terran players can beat infestors already, simply by playing better. Take a look at that final game between Destiny and Rain for example. Rain did an extremely Marine heavy timing push and got stopped by Spine Crawlers, Zerglings, Banelings, and Infestors - pretty much the ideal composition to deal with mass Marines. Rain didn't lose because Infestors are overpowered and he needed Ghosts. Rain lost because his Marine heavy army did not do enough damage, and he fell way behind on tech, The rest of the game was pretty much just a formality.
not sure how to follow up on this when you automatically write off my points as "nonsense" and not a "real problem". comparing infestors to medivacs is a horrible analogy. you don't need to counter the medivacs but you absolutely need ghosts to counter infestors.
The entire Ghost argument is nonsense. Terran players can beat infestors already, simply by playing better.
Rain didn't lose because Infestors are overpowered and he needed Ghosts.
yeah don't even know how to respond to that. you think terrans don't need ghosts against infestors.
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Cool series, congrats to destiny. He's always had a very peculiar way of playing, I remember when he went muta/ling against protoss when no one else did. Very entertaining games from him always, curious to see how he preforms at MLG!
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United States213 Posts
Rain lost way more than 20 vikings in that last game, and that was the whole reason he lost. Any zerg player that goes broodlord + infestor + ling/roach etc will know how fragile the broodlords are to a massive tank line backed by a decent count of vikings, if he handles his vikings properly (close to tanks, spread out, like any concave he would do with a MM ball) you will lose if you do not kill sufficient tanks by suiciding your broodlords for the zerg's ground army to overwhelm.
Late game ZvT if Z makes it to broodlords/infestor max is a slow territorial push, and honestly with the range that vikings / tanks have, if both controlled equally well, tank viking should more often than not, come out on top.
Also, I don't get why many terrans are beginning to feel like a high count of ghosts are the counter to broodlord/infestors, Admittedly 2-3 are almost necessary so the zerg is more careful and to get a clutch emp or snipe if really urgent. However, mass ghosts as the direct counter is silly, even with cloak. A good fungal, or well controlled' overseers + suiciding 30~ lings and infested terrans to tank splash would be a feasible solution to that, we don't have anything as straightforward for vikings.
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On July 28 2011 10:59 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:53 DizzyDrone wrote:On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late. You're bringing up two unrelated arguments, but neither of them is a real problem. You can go Infestor against almost any unit composition. But is that any different then a Terran adding Medivacs to his army in the mid-game? They may not get the kills themselves, but they are certainly as valuable. Infestors are just a key part of Destiny's army composition. Now, you may have trouble scouting those 8 Infestors before they hatch. You can however scout the Zerg's extremely quick 4 vespane geisers, the lack of gas-heavy units or tech, the Infestation Pit, and the lack of units. More importantly, saving up for 8 infestors means the Zerg is sitting on 800 minerals and 1000 gas. Perhaps Terran players should work out a timing that hits before the Infestors arrive, as he's going to be extremely weak at that point. Here's the thing; The entire Ghost argument is nonsense. Terran players can beat infestors already, simply by playing better. Take a look at that final game between Destiny and Rain for example. Rain did an extremely Marine heavy timing push and got stopped by Spine Crawlers, Zerglings, Banelings, and Infestors - pretty much the ideal composition to deal with mass Marines. Rain didn't lose because Infestors are overpowered and he needed Ghosts. Rain lost because his Marine heavy army did not do enough damage, and he fell way behind on tech, The rest of the game was pretty much just a formality. not sure how to follow up on this when you automatically write off my points as "nonsense" and not a "real problem". comparing infestors to medivacs is a horrible analogy. you don't need to counter the medivacs but you absolutely need ghosts to counter infestors. Show nested quote +The entire Ghost argument is nonsense. Terran players can beat infestors already, simply by playing better. yeah don't even know how to respond to that. you think terrans don't need ghosts against infestors.
Again, you're missing the point. I'm comparing them to Medivacs in the sense that they are a key part of the Zerg army. When a Zerg goes Ling Infestor you shouldn't be thinking "well, I better go hellion ghost, as hellions counter lings and ghosts counter infestors". You should be thinking about how to beat the complete Zerg army. Sure, Ghosts will help, but I don't agree they are needed.
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On July 28 2011 10:54 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:52 dar5283 wrote:On July 28 2011 10:47 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:40 dar5283 wrote:On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late. Are you trying to say, you can't blindly make spellcasters? You seem to act like blindly going ghosts, a VERY, VERY strong unit, puts you at a loss? please explain the role of a ghost against a line/bane/muta composition. without making the ghost i can make a tank and 2 extra marines. So if you scout ling/bane/muta, you want to make ghosts? Do you not seem to get the point? The Spellcaster are there for a reason, terrans just refuse to make them in just about every situation. what? if i scout ling/bane/muta i don't want to make ghosts. what are the ghosts for? sniping banelings?
NUKES. Lots and lots of NUKES.
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On July 28 2011 11:20 KingRajesh wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:54 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:52 dar5283 wrote:On July 28 2011 10:47 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:40 dar5283 wrote:On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late. Are you trying to say, you can't blindly make spellcasters? You seem to act like blindly going ghosts, a VERY, VERY strong unit, puts you at a loss? please explain the role of a ghost against a line/bane/muta composition. without making the ghost i can make a tank and 2 extra marines. So if you scout ling/bane/muta, you want to make ghosts? Do you not seem to get the point? The Spellcaster are there for a reason, terrans just refuse to make them in just about every situation. what? if i scout ling/bane/muta i don't want to make ghosts. what are the ghosts for? sniping banelings? NUKES. Lots and lots of NUKES.
Plus they are really fucking good against mutas with ridiculous range. Make one or two early and use them defensively perhaps. I know if i run into a base and hear 5 or 6 snipes go off on my mutas I won't be coming back for a while or at least I'll be much more careful.
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lol Ipp I called it earlier today that I wouldn't be surprised if Destiny went 3-2  lawl
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On July 28 2011 10:49 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:47 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:40 dar5283 wrote:On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late. Are you trying to say, you can't blindly make spellcasters? You seem to act like blindly going ghosts, a VERY, VERY strong unit, puts you at a loss? please explain the role of a ghost against a line/bane/muta composition. without making the ghost i can make a tank and 2 extra marines. He doesn't "just go" infestors at a whim. Scout, read what the opponent is doing. You should know if he's getting that many infestors before the eggs even pop.
I think I love you. If only every player would think of the game in this way. It amazes me that people don't try to "read" their opponent.
To the role of the ghost against ling/blin/muta question:
I'm just wondering if you realize how good micro abilities like snipe are? A ghost at full energy can take out several muta at an instant or you can get cloak and do some early game harrass of the drone line (Cause zerg don't get detection normally unless they see banshee). Or you can constantly harrass the zerg with ghosts kind of like how Destiny harrasses the bases of any race with infested terran. Even then you only need to start wth two ghosts at most. Which quickly pay for themselves since they do 20 base damage to light units and can two shot lings and blings pretty easily without upgrades.
That and they can stay at the back of your army with their slightly extended range! That means they'll be even better cause they'll get a ton more shots of.
Then if you actually scout and see infestors, you can build only a few more ghosts to go with your comp. Naturally in the late game if you are macroing well and scouting well there should be no problem including them in a basic army comp. Maybe even get nukes to make zergs constantly pull drones or to force a zerg to stay back from an area. Even double nuke and kill a bunch of tech buildings if you really want to.
But like Jibba said, it matters that you actually scout and read your opponent. Your understanding of the game has to be flowing and you gotta flow with the game sometimes.
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On July 28 2011 11:50 Atlas_550 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:49 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:47 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:40 dar5283 wrote:On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late. Are you trying to say, you can't blindly make spellcasters? You seem to act like blindly going ghosts, a VERY, VERY strong unit, puts you at a loss? please explain the role of a ghost against a line/bane/muta composition. without making the ghost i can make a tank and 2 extra marines. He doesn't "just go" infestors at a whim. Scout, read what the opponent is doing. You should know if he's getting that many infestors before the eggs even pop. I think I love you. If only every player would think of the game in this way. It amazes me that people don't try to "read" their opponent. To the role of the ghost against ling/blin/muta question: I'm just wondering if you realize how good micro abilities like snipe are? A ghost at full energy can take out several muta at an instant or you can get cloak and do some early game harrass of the drone line (Cause zerg don't get detection normally unless they see banshee). Or you can constantly harrass the zerg with ghosts kind of like how Destiny harrasses the bases of any race with infested terran. Even then you only need to start wth two ghosts at most. Which quickly pay for themselves since they do 20 base damage to light units and can two shot lings and blings pretty easily without upgrades. That and they can stay at the back of your army with their slightly extended range! That means they'll be even better cause they'll get a ton more shots of. Then if you actually scout and see infestors, you can build only a few more ghosts to go with your comp. Naturally in the late game if you are macroing well and scouting well there should be no problem including them in a basic army comp. Maybe even get nukes to make zergs constantly pull drones or to force a zerg to stay back from an area. Even double nuke and kill a bunch of tech buildings if you really want to. But like Jibba said, it matters that you actually scout and read your opponent. Your understanding of the game has to be flowing and you gotta flow with the game sometimes.
Thank you for that, some people just don't seem to understand.
Blindly making spellcasters won't hurt you, period.
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I love the person who said earlier that this isn't monobattles. You don't just "go" a unit and win. This is supposed to be teamliquid.net, site for sc2 analysis. Where's the critique of the micro and the macro? Give Destiny credit for his scouting and surviving early game and taking risks to have a winning late game strategy. Saying he just massed a unit and won is so juvenile and ignorant.
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On July 28 2011 11:50 Atlas_550 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:49 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:47 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:40 dar5283 wrote:On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late. Are you trying to say, you can't blindly make spellcasters? You seem to act like blindly going ghosts, a VERY, VERY strong unit, puts you at a loss? please explain the role of a ghost against a line/bane/muta composition. without making the ghost i can make a tank and 2 extra marines. He doesn't "just go" infestors at a whim. Scout, read what the opponent is doing. You should know if he's getting that many infestors before the eggs even pop. I think I love you. If only every player would think of the game in this way. It amazes me that people don't try to "read" their opponent. To the role of the ghost against ling/blin/muta question: I'm just wondering if you realize how good micro abilities like snipe are? A ghost at full energy can take out several muta at an instant or you can get cloak and do some early game harrass of the drone line (Cause zerg don't get detection normally unless they see banshee). Or you can constantly harrass the zerg with ghosts kind of like how Destiny harrasses the bases of any race with infested terran. Even then you only need to start wth two ghosts at most. Which quickly pay for themselves since they do 20 base damage to light units and can two shot lings and blings pretty easily without upgrades. That and they can stay at the back of your army with their slightly extended range! That means they'll be even better cause they'll get a ton more shots of. Then if you actually scout and see infestors, you can build only a few more ghosts to go with your comp. Naturally in the late game if you are macroing well and scouting well there should be no problem including them in a basic army comp. Maybe even get nukes to make zergs constantly pull drones or to force a zerg to stay back from an area. Even double nuke and kill a bunch of tech buildings if you really want to. But like Jibba said, it matters that you actually scout and read your opponent. Your understanding of the game has to be flowing and you gotta flow with the game sometimes.
It seems the only people theorizing how effective ghosts are against lin/bling/muta compositions are people who don't play terran. I have not seen a single terran who regularly incorporates ghosts in their unit comp against zerg even if they don't make infestor or broodlords. I'm not exaggerating this. If you know of a pro who does this, please point me to him because I will be very interested. It just doesn't make sense unless. sure you can argue that all these terrans are just bad and haven't explored the matchup but that is shortsighted considering how pro teams share their knowledge. If ghosts are as good as you say, don't you think Losira for example would tell his teammate MVP to make them all the time?
you can't "constantly harass" with ghosts like what destiny does. he keeps them burrowed, moves them around, unburrows and fugals or throw infested terrans. ghosts run out of energy you can't cloak them forever. they have no aoe spells to destroy massive amounts of workers. they can't spawn mass infested terrans and kill a cc. a spore crawler + spine at a zerg base negates any possible harass by ghosts.
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^They can nuke stuff while cloaked and players that don't pay as much attention to their natural or 3rd while macroing never notice until it's too late (especially if the ghost is cloaked and controlled in such a way that you can sneak into mineral lines and so on without getting noticed instantly). Nukes only cost 100 minerals and gas and take a short time to make and send, plus they devastate supply lines for Terran and Protoss. In groups of 3 or 4, ghosts can simultaneously nuke zerg bases and/or snipe overseers while staying away from the spore crawler radius. It's riskier against Protoss unless you're good at scanning and taking down observers, but still doable.
I'm waiting for Byun and YoDa to try this out, because they're smart and have great ghost control, and they'll end up knowing that they can actually do this.
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very bad games by Rain not analyzing his opponent properly. that said props to Destiny for adding to his winlist and becoming more and more legit
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On July 28 2011 13:10 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 11:50 Atlas_550 wrote:On July 28 2011 10:49 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:47 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:40 dar5283 wrote:On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late. Are you trying to say, you can't blindly make spellcasters? You seem to act like blindly going ghosts, a VERY, VERY strong unit, puts you at a loss? please explain the role of a ghost against a line/bane/muta composition. without making the ghost i can make a tank and 2 extra marines. He doesn't "just go" infestors at a whim. Scout, read what the opponent is doing. You should know if he's getting that many infestors before the eggs even pop. I think I love you. If only every player would think of the game in this way. It amazes me that people don't try to "read" their opponent. To the role of the ghost against ling/blin/muta question: I'm just wondering if you realize how good micro abilities like snipe are? A ghost at full energy can take out several muta at an instant or you can get cloak and do some early game harrass of the drone line (Cause zerg don't get detection normally unless they see banshee). Or you can constantly harrass the zerg with ghosts kind of like how Destiny harrasses the bases of any race with infested terran. Even then you only need to start wth two ghosts at most. Which quickly pay for themselves since they do 20 base damage to light units and can two shot lings and blings pretty easily without upgrades. That and they can stay at the back of your army with their slightly extended range! That means they'll be even better cause they'll get a ton more shots of. Then if you actually scout and see infestors, you can build only a few more ghosts to go with your comp. Naturally in the late game if you are macroing well and scouting well there should be no problem including them in a basic army comp. Maybe even get nukes to make zergs constantly pull drones or to force a zerg to stay back from an area. Even double nuke and kill a bunch of tech buildings if you really want to. But like Jibba said, it matters that you actually scout and read your opponent. Your understanding of the game has to be flowing and you gotta flow with the game sometimes. It seems the only people theorizing how effective ghosts are against lin/bling/muta compositions are people who don't play terran. I have not seen a single terran who regularly incorporates ghosts in their unit comp against zerg even if they don't make infestor or broodlords. I'm not exaggerating this. If you know of a pro who does this, please point me to him because I will be very interested. It just doesn't make sense unless. sure you can argue that all these terrans are just bad and haven't explored the matchup but that is shortsighted considering how pro teams share their knowledge. If ghosts are as good as you say, don't you think Losira for example would tell his teammate MVP to make them all the time? you can't "constantly harass" with ghosts like what destiny does. he keeps them burrowed, moves them around, unburrows and fugals or throw infested terrans. ghosts run out of energy you can't cloak them forever. they have no aoe spells to destroy massive amounts of workers. they can't spawn mass infested terrans and kill a cc. a spore crawler + spine at a zerg base negates any possible harass by ghosts.
Every Top 16 GSL terran DOES use ghosts against zerg if it makes it to late game.
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Just to say it to all the haters, TOLD YOU! Destiny fighting!!!!
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On July 28 2011 14:11 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 13:10 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 11:50 Atlas_550 wrote:On July 28 2011 10:49 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:47 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:40 dar5283 wrote:On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late. Are you trying to say, you can't blindly make spellcasters? You seem to act like blindly going ghosts, a VERY, VERY strong unit, puts you at a loss? please explain the role of a ghost against a line/bane/muta composition. without making the ghost i can make a tank and 2 extra marines. He doesn't "just go" infestors at a whim. Scout, read what the opponent is doing. You should know if he's getting that many infestors before the eggs even pop. I think I love you. If only every player would think of the game in this way. It amazes me that people don't try to "read" their opponent. To the role of the ghost against ling/blin/muta question: I'm just wondering if you realize how good micro abilities like snipe are? A ghost at full energy can take out several muta at an instant or you can get cloak and do some early game harrass of the drone line (Cause zerg don't get detection normally unless they see banshee). Or you can constantly harrass the zerg with ghosts kind of like how Destiny harrasses the bases of any race with infested terran. Even then you only need to start wth two ghosts at most. Which quickly pay for themselves since they do 20 base damage to light units and can two shot lings and blings pretty easily without upgrades. That and they can stay at the back of your army with their slightly extended range! That means they'll be even better cause they'll get a ton more shots of. Then if you actually scout and see infestors, you can build only a few more ghosts to go with your comp. Naturally in the late game if you are macroing well and scouting well there should be no problem including them in a basic army comp. Maybe even get nukes to make zergs constantly pull drones or to force a zerg to stay back from an area. Even double nuke and kill a bunch of tech buildings if you really want to. But like Jibba said, it matters that you actually scout and read your opponent. Your understanding of the game has to be flowing and you gotta flow with the game sometimes. It seems the only people theorizing how effective ghosts are against lin/bling/muta compositions are people who don't play terran. I have not seen a single terran who regularly incorporates ghosts in their unit comp against zerg even if they don't make infestor or broodlords. I'm not exaggerating this. If you know of a pro who does this, please point me to him because I will be very interested. It just doesn't make sense unless. sure you can argue that all these terrans are just bad and haven't explored the matchup but that is shortsighted considering how pro teams share their knowledge. If ghosts are as good as you say, don't you think Losira for example would tell his teammate MVP to make them all the time? you can't "constantly harass" with ghosts like what destiny does. he keeps them burrowed, moves them around, unburrows and fugals or throw infested terrans. ghosts run out of energy you can't cloak them forever. they have no aoe spells to destroy massive amounts of workers. they can't spawn mass infested terrans and kill a cc. a spore crawler + spine at a zerg base negates any possible harass by ghosts. Every Top 16 GSL terran DOES use ghosts against zerg if it makes it to late game.
I have not seen a single terran who regularly incorporates ghosts in their unit comp against zerg even if they don't make infestor or broodlords.
the discussion is about the role of ghosts against ling/blin/muta. they're arguing that blindly making ghosts is beneficial when your opponent does not plan on going infestors or broodlords. i have not seen a single pro make who consistently incorporates ghosts against ling/bling/muta. In fact I don't think I've even seen it once in GSL.
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On July 28 2011 14:42 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +I have not seen a single terran who regularly incorporates ghosts in their unit comp against zerg even if they don't make infestor or broodlords. the discussion is about the role of ghosts against ling/blin/muta. they're arguing that blindly making ghosts is beneficial when your opponent does not plan on going infestors or broodlords. i have not seen a single pro make who consistently incorporates ghosts against ling/bling/muta. In fact I don't think I've even seen it once in GSL.
I don't see how this proves your point right. Ok, lets assume that ghosts have zero use against muta/bling/ling and you are right, how does that excuse terrans from making ghosts against broodlord infestor? So you are saying that the infestor is op because zergs can blindly make it and it will serve of some use? Sure, maybe that's true. But the same can be said about the ghost in TvP, or the High templar in both PvZ and PvT. Also, have you ever considered that the reason why zergs can blindly make infestors is because no terrans right now make ghosts?
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I guess things start getting confusing for Rain after 15 minute mark.
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EPT
