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On July 28 2011 09:29 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 09:19 akalarry wrote:On July 28 2011 09:06 Bagi wrote:On July 28 2011 08:58 akalarry wrote:On July 28 2011 08:56 Bagi wrote:On July 28 2011 08:52 akalarry wrote:
watching this game is like watching colossus/stalker/sentry vs roach/hydra
pros should know how to adapt and learn. it's not rocket science or anything. does he REALLY think vikings can counter infestor/brood lord and can get ghosts 25 min into the game. You've been talking alot about these ghosts, how about sharing some replays/VODs where ghosts dominate? Whenever I see terrans get ghosts, they end up largely ineffective or not worth the cost. Might as well spam vikings/marines at their army and hope it breaks instead. Some terran pros I've heard say ghosts aren't really that effective of an counter, since they get easily sniped by fungals and BL fire. Also tbh I would be interested in learning ghost use. Currently I can't pull it off at all. even if terran gets ghosts, i still think zerg is way stronger. but how can you NOT get ghosts in that situation?????????? that's my point. not that ghosts would be op against that composition just think about it. Because ghosts are actually a big investment, and are also units that are very fragile. One mistake and it's a ton of minerals/gas down the drain that could've been more vikings and marines instead. Ghosts just haven't proven to be worth it when you can get equally good or better results by making more vikings and spreading them out. If your marines/vikings get caught by fungal, its less of an issue since they are pretty cheap and you have the tech for them anyway. Ghosts are just an alternative "counter" that sometimes pays off but usually doesn't. If you're gonna admit ghosts aren't the key to countering that unit comp, then you really shouldn't be rambling here about them either, at least not in that tone. rofl i cant believe you actually wrote this. you really think marine/tank/viking will beat broodlord/infestor? (let alone 100 zerglings) ghosts haven't been proven? find me ONE game where terran wins with just marine/tank/viking against this build where the zerg didn't play sloppy. did you watch the games? rain could've easily emped every single clumped up infestor with cloak. nevermind i think you're trolling Yet funnily enough you couldn't point me a single game where ghosts were effective. Speaks volumes of how much you actually know. It's a common terran complaint that you have to do serious damage in the early/midgame to be able to deal with zerg in the lategame. Does that constitute as sloppy play from the zerg? Maybe, but terran simply cannot compete in equal situations. For example, I just watched Empire.Kas beat Catz in a BO5 showmatch last week, where many games included BL/infestor. He didn't build a single ghost, but instead outmaneuvered his opponent from the start, then overran him with marine/viking. Guess he's just another terran noob who doesn't know how to use ghosts, hmm? You really should consider cutting down on the rofl's and trolling accusations though, makes you look like a little brat.
I hope you are realizing how stupid that sounds? Ghosts is a really good unit and people haven't really explored them fully yet to use them properly, many terrans do use ghosts which is good cause the unit itself got A LOT of potential even (talking from my own experience). By saying that EmpireKas didn't invest in ghosts the games vs catz doesn't make him bad or the unit bad at all.
Ur logic sounds just like: IF i watch "Nestea" play vs MKP and MKP never uses ghosts in a single game bo5 the unit must suck right? that's just complete bs.
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On July 28 2011 09:51 shr0ud wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 09:45 Moralez wrote:On July 28 2011 09:39 shr0ud wrote:
This made me sad if nothing else to see a clearly better player losing to gimmick. Hilarious post. Destiny won because today he was the better player simple as that. Please, are you actually telling me it takes a better player to win with mass infestors? Hilarious post, indeed.
Another quality post right here.
There are ways to stop ' mass infestor ' so yeah.
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On July 28 2011 09:53 Mifec wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 09:51 shr0ud wrote:On July 28 2011 09:45 Moralez wrote:On July 28 2011 09:39 shr0ud wrote:
This made me sad if nothing else to see a clearly better player losing to gimmick. Hilarious post. Destiny won because today he was the better player simple as that. Please, are you actually telling me it takes a better player to win with mass infestors? Hilarious post, indeed. Yes because you totally don't need crazy good micro for those infestors and 1 EMP totally doesn't fuck your whole army up if they are clumped right?
why woudl you need crazy good micro for infestors? he doesn't to split them or anything.
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On July 28 2011 09:48 Destiny wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 09:29 Bagi wrote:On July 28 2011 09:19 akalarry wrote:On July 28 2011 09:06 Bagi wrote:On July 28 2011 08:58 akalarry wrote:On July 28 2011 08:56 Bagi wrote:On July 28 2011 08:52 akalarry wrote:
watching this game is like watching colossus/stalker/sentry vs roach/hydra
pros should know how to adapt and learn. it's not rocket science or anything. does he REALLY think vikings can counter infestor/brood lord and can get ghosts 25 min into the game. You've been talking alot about these ghosts, how about sharing some replays/VODs where ghosts dominate? Whenever I see terrans get ghosts, they end up largely ineffective or not worth the cost. Might as well spam vikings/marines at their army and hope it breaks instead. Some terran pros I've heard say ghosts aren't really that effective of an counter, since they get easily sniped by fungals and BL fire. Also tbh I would be interested in learning ghost use. Currently I can't pull it off at all. even if terran gets ghosts, i still think zerg is way stronger. but how can you NOT get ghosts in that situation?????????? that's my point. not that ghosts would be op against that composition just think about it. Because ghosts are actually a big investment, and are also units that are very fragile. One mistake and it's a ton of minerals/gas down the drain that could've been more vikings and marines instead. Ghosts just haven't proven to be worth it when you can get equally good or better results by making more vikings and spreading them out. If your marines/vikings get caught by fungal, its less of an issue since they are pretty cheap and you have the tech for them anyway. Ghosts are just an alternative "counter" that sometimes pays off but usually doesn't. If you're gonna admit ghosts aren't the key to countering that unit comp, then you really shouldn't be rambling here about them either, at least not in that tone. rofl i cant believe you actually wrote this. you really think marine/tank/viking will beat broodlord/infestor? (let alone 100 zerglings) ghosts haven't been proven? find me ONE game where terran wins with just marine/tank/viking against this build where the zerg didn't play sloppy. did you watch the games? rain could've easily emped every single clumped up infestor with cloak. nevermind i think you're trolling Yet funnily enough you couldn't point me a single game where ghosts were effective. Speaks volumes of how much you actually know. It's a common terran complaint that you have to do serious damage in the early/midgame to be able to deal with zerg in the lategame. Does that constitute as sloppy play from the zerg? Maybe, but terran simply cannot compete in equal situations. For example, I just watched Empire.Kas beat Catz in a BO5 showmatch last week, where many games included BL/infestor. He didn't build a single ghost, but instead outmaneuvered his opponent from the start, then overran him with marine/viking. Guess he's just another terran noob who doesn't know how to use ghosts, hmm? You really should consider cutting down on the rofl's and trolling accusations though, makes you look like a little brat. You REALLY need to NEVER post in ANY of these forums talking about strategy until you can demonstrate that you have a higher-than-bronze level understanding of higher level aspects of this game. For someone to come onto these forums and say absolutely absurd things like "GHOSTS R FRAJILE" and "THEY R EXPENSIV LOL" and "2 HARD 2 MICRO JUST MAEK MOAR VIKIG AND MAERINE LOL" shows a SERIOUS lack of thought. Ghosts are INCREDIBLY underused units that have a great deal of potential. They're very unexplored right now, even in upper level terran play. With proper micro, they can literally counter all Zerg Tier 3, plus infestors. Seriously, don't just herp derp watch Koreans play and blindly follow whatever they do like gospel without putting some thought into your own words first. Thank you.
Where's the "Hahaha, oh wow"-picture when you need it?
Anyway, since I know wont take my word for it, I'll just advice anyone to read this quite thorough post from Beastyqt, it reflects my opinion quite well:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=240379¤tpage=11#201
All I was trying to say was that 1) ghosts look good on paper but 2) rarely have an impact in actual games. Whether that is due to people not figuring out their potential remains to be seen. People saying "just build ghosts, idiot" are not looking at the big picture. Thank you.
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I think what people need to understand is you can call his play gimmicky, and that if people prepare, they will win easy, but destiny isn't that stupid, hes talked about/ I've seen how, even if he is blind countered, with proper scouting, no way is he "ez" he doesn't herp derp make lings and infestors, if he can scout say +2 chargelot archon.. I think give him time, just because it's a new playstyle, it's gimmicky?, then people could say "oh ling bling muta so gimmicky, auto lose to mech", when in reality those players just transition roach etc, as destiny does with his builds when they won't be so efficient.
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Its funny how the actual high level players like Travis and PiQLiQ are complimenting Destiny while all the theory crafting platnium players are trashing Destiny and/or Rain.
Either way, haters should keep on hating because it makes it more satisfying to see them eat their words.
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United States22883 Posts
The people that are concentrating on Destiny's lategame (his BLs or Ultras) are completely missing the strength of his build in vT/vP. He's found a faster timing and a new way of using infestors that completely baffles most players, especially Koreans, who are trying to counter more normal builds. Early/mid-game vs. those standard responses he's able to get a huge gas surplus and trade minerals for gas vs his opponent. As long as the infestors stay alive, he can keep trading lings + infested terrans for damage and because he's using more than FG, his infestors become useful earlier than other Z's infestors do. Quite frankly the ling + infested terran mid-game, while keeping infestors burrowed and safe, is kind of brilliant.
That said, his play has been pretty non-diverse from what I've seen in the past month and I'm sure he realizes that he'll have to add on a few layers so he doesn't become too predictable. Every build has a vulnerable spot and if someone had to train specifically for him in a GSL-type situation, they probably could shut it down.
Grats to Destiny for winning vs. Rain and grats on all the recent success you've been having on the KR ladder. It's been awesome to watch.
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On July 28 2011 09:51 shr0ud wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 09:45 Moralez wrote:On July 28 2011 09:39 shr0ud wrote:
This made me sad if nothing else to see a clearly better player losing to gimmick. Hilarious post. Destiny won because today he was the better player simple as that. Please, are you actually telling me it takes a better player to win with mass infestors? Hilarious post, indeed.
And another superhero, that probably never played that style. Mass infestors aren't just an "a" move unit. You need to micro.
And if it was that OP and easy to play, other zergs would use it. But that isn't the case, so please stop complaining and hating. Just ridiculous.
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On July 28 2011 09:24 Jacobs Ladder wrote:I'm kind of curious what Rain's practice looks like since his team swap. He's in the kind of nether world between Korean or foreign. None the less, good games. Destiny has improved a lot. I'm not a fan of him or his style of play, but I can't deny that he's getting results. Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 09:15 justinpal wrote:On July 28 2011 09:12 integrity wrote:
as a hater of destiny. i feel the need to come here to tell him gratz. very nice showmatch GTFO! We don't don't like your kind around here. Was that an intentional double negative or are you just retarded?
So if it was a typo because I was talking to someone as I typed it, what does that make me? Sorry that flawed post offended you~. I was also jokingly saying that, but...don't expect someone who calls people out on grammar/typos to get it.
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It seems some people are just hell bent on not giving any credit to Destiny for whatever he does.
If he does well at MLG i bet some people will still call him nothing but maybe an 'entertaining streamer' as Slasher put it.
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People just say "oh get ghosts herp derp". Ghosts aren't an auto win. Ghosts don't have infinite energy either. You can't just cloak, snipe 5-6 broodlords and emp all the infestors too, lmao. Besides, even if you get all the infestors emp'd, then what? You can't attack into BLs with lings lol. Ghosts help, but they can't beat the composition alone.
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Great series and a great win by Destiny, but not as great as the haters and their QQing in this thread. I just can't get over the fact that Terran players (MASS MARINES DERP) are trashing Destiny for ``gimmicky`` play. He doesn`t even really mass infestors so to speak, he just makes a bunch of them, kind of like Terrans do with tanks, and supplements them with zerglings and (later) Broodlords.
Learn to counter it and stop complaining. Just be happy 99% of Zergs can`t do it as well as Destiny can yet, so the meta-game hasn`t officially shifted yet.
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Even though Destiny has been using this strategy for quite some time now, he's still pretty much on the bleeding edge, mainly because koreans are very slow to adapt. They can't practice against it, because other people on the korean ladder aren't using it yet (though the only games i've seen of the korean ladder are Destiny's and sometimes Huk)
most terrans are basically improvising when facing this build, they just build ghosts, not in any organized kinda fashion, or with any real game plan.
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On July 28 2011 10:05 Purdy8 wrote:
It seems some people are just hell bent on not giving any credit to Destiny for whatever he does.
If he does well at MLG i bet some people will still call him nothing but maybe an 'entertaining streamer' as Slasher put it.
Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking. The guy can do whatever he want's. He will probably never get any credit. Seems like the kind of guy you either love or hate. Nothing inbetwen.
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Not QQing, but infestors obviously need to be revamped to be more of a niche unit and less unit that works fine or too good vs 99% of strats. Vs T fungal growth deals with: marines, medivacs, vikings, banshees, hellions and clumped up bio/mech balls. Infested terrans deal with air, tanks and can be spammed rediculously and NP kills thors BCs etc. So they can deal with every single terran unit except ghosts, and ghosts dont even hard counter them. What a joke.
User was temp banned for this post.
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I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition.
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On July 28 2011 10:08 NomiC wrote:
Not QQing, but infestors obviously need to be revamped to be more of a niche unit and less unit that works fine or too good vs 99% of strats. Vs T fungal growth deals with: marines, medivacs, vikings, banshees, hellions and clumped up bio/mech balls. Infested terrans deal with air, tanks and can be spammed rediculously and NP kills thors BCs etc. So they can deal with every single terran unit except ghosts, and ghosts dont even hard counter them. What a joke.
User was temp banned for this post.
Yeah Infestors are soooo op that the whole ladder is full with Zergs playing mass infestor.
Oh yeah and let's not forget all those top tier Zergs winning every tournament by playing mass infestors ... what a joke!
And to be honest. It's not just the fact of "massing" infestors, that does his style so unique. It's the way of using them. Nobody of the top tier zergs uses the Infestor in his full potential. Destiny does that and it's why he is so successfull with that.
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i dont play terran so i really have no idea, but i feel like it would be pretty simple to counter ghosts by using the terran's emp against him with neural parasite lol. maybe that's just me, but i havent seen anybody else mention it so maybe that doesnt work too well =o
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On July 28 2011 10:14 FrankWalls wrote:
i dont play terran so i really have no idea, but i feel like it would be pretty simple to counter ghosts by using the terran's emp against him with neural parasite lol. maybe that's just me, but i havent seen anybody else mention it so maybe that doesnt work too well =o
As I said on page 31, the time it takes to cast each spell is different... EMPs/Feedbacks cast faster.
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United States22883 Posts
On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition.
Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time.
Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is.
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EPT
