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On July 28 2011 10:16 dar5283 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:14 FrankWalls wrote:
i dont play terran so i really have no idea, but i feel like it would be pretty simple to counter ghosts by using the terran's emp against him with neural parasite lol. maybe that's just me, but i havent seen anybody else mention it so maybe that doesnt work too well =o As I said on page 31, the time it takes to cast each spell is different... EMPs/Feedbacks cast faster.
Interesting question would be: is the infestors energy used at the beginning of the cast or when the parasite hits the enemy unit ? cause if so, it doesn't realy matter if the EMP hits the infestor. The NP would hit anyway.
It think though that terran will figure out how to deal with it. And it's not like Destiny is winning every mid/lategame he plays. So there are ways to beat it.
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On July 28 2011 10:08 EtohEtoh wrote:
Even though Destiny has been using this strategy for quite some time now, he's still pretty much on the bleeding edge, mainly because koreans are very slow to adapt. They can't practice against it, because other people on the korean ladder aren't using it yet (though the only games i've seen of the korean ladder are Destiny's and sometimes Huk)
most terrans are basically improvising when facing this build, they just build ghosts, not in any organized kinda fashion, or with any real game plan.
You're giving Destiny way too much credit. When it actually better in a major tournament setting he's still bombing out in round 1.
This is the exact same situation as we had with Spanishiwa a few months ago, lots of foolish people claiming this was the massive new thing which would transform the matchups and push the guy up to the top of the scene and look what happened there.
I really like Destiny, I watch his stream nearly every day but he's sooo overrated by some of his fans. Even now, when he's clearly riding the crest of the wave of his style he's still not producing tournament results.
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On July 28 2011 09:51 eourcs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 09:35 kedinik wrote:
Here is the verbal flowchart that most terrans don't even really attempt, and which handles mass infestor/brood lord really well.
1) Cloak a single ghost
2) Walk forward
3) Snipe overseers if any still alive
4) Snipe broodlords and emp infestors
5) Return to step one when first ghost runs out of energy or dies I hope you do know that fungal reveals cloaked units, so unless the zerg is blind, ghosts alone shouldn't be able to do half the things you said. I don't think infestors are imbalanced, but stop trying to make it seem like it's really simple to beat them. If it was, there would be no top terrans complaining about them and that is currently not the case.
It's non-trivial to manually detect the silhouette of cloaked units. Not to mention EMP out-ranges the vision of zerg units.
Like, they don't even need to get close enough where it becomes possible to see the cloaked silhouette and fungal it.
Meanwhile scan reveals every valuable target a ghost might want to EMP or snipe from ranges 10 and 10 + aoe respectively.
The ghost/infestor micro war heavily, heavily favors ghosts. Honestly most terrans have bad ghost micro and do not correctly spread ghosts and pair scans with their attempts to micro the ghosts.
Between longer ranged abilities, invisibility and scans? They really, really should never be losing that micro-off. Same situation as with HTs.
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On July 28 2011 10:20 MollocH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:16 dar5283 wrote:On July 28 2011 10:14 FrankWalls wrote:
i dont play terran so i really have no idea, but i feel like it would be pretty simple to counter ghosts by using the terran's emp against him with neural parasite lol. maybe that's just me, but i havent seen anybody else mention it so maybe that doesnt work too well =o As I said on page 31, the time it takes to cast each spell is different... EMPs/Feedbacks cast faster. Interesting question would be: is the infestors energy used at the beginning of the cast or when the parasite hits the enemy unit ? cause if so, it doesn't realy matter if the EMP hits the infestor. The NP would hit anyway. It think though that terran will figure out how to deal with it. And it's not like Destiny is winning every mid/lategame he plays. So there are ways to beat it.
hmm. i get the impression that np outranges emp too doesnt it? i mean im not saying it's imba or anything. i just dont really see answers as black and white as "GET GHOSTS AND WIN." obviously they help of course but there should always be more to it than that.
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On July 28 2011 10:08 MollocH wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:05 Purdy8 wrote:
It seems some people are just hell bent on not giving any credit to Destiny for whatever he does.
If he does well at MLG i bet some people will still call him nothing but maybe an 'entertaining streamer' as Slasher put it.
Yeah that's exactly what I was thinking. The guy can do whatever he want's. He will probably never get any credit. Seems like the kind of guy you either love or hate. Nothing inbetwen.
I don't love or hate him, but i respect how well he plays, and more so want him to do well due to the fact he gets a lot of hate for no reason, or rather because he has a strat that a very good counter hasn't been found for it yet, or rather hinder him being able to get to that stage rather than just countering it toe to toe.
After Boxer i'd love to see this guy win MLG.
Infact him vs Boxer in the final would be brilliant.
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NP should drain 100 energy over 12 seconds instead of costing 100 energy.
This way, if you feedback or EMP an infestor the NP ends instantly.
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On July 28 2011 10:22 kedinik wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 09:51 eourcs wrote:On July 28 2011 09:35 kedinik wrote:
Here is the verbal flowchart that most terrans don't even really attempt, and which handles mass infestor/brood lord really well.
1) Cloak a single ghost
2) Walk forward
3) Snipe overseers if any still alive
4) Snipe broodlords and emp infestors
5) Return to step one when first ghost runs out of energy or dies I hope you do know that fungal reveals cloaked units, so unless the zerg is blind, ghosts alone shouldn't be able to do half the things you said. I don't think infestors are imbalanced, but stop trying to make it seem like it's really simple to beat them. If it was, there would be no top terrans complaining about them and that is currently not the case. It's non-trivial to manually detect the silhouette of cloaked units. Not to mention EMP out-ranges the vision of zerg units. Like, they don't even need to get close enough where it becomes possible to see the cloaked silhouette and fungal it. Meanwhile scan reveals every valuable target a ghost might want to EMP or snipe from ranges 10 and 10 + aoe respectively. The ghost/infestor micro war heavily, heavily favors ghosts. Honestly most terrans have bad ghost micro and do not correctly spread ghosts and pair scans with their attempts to micro the ghosts. Between longer ranged abilities, invisibility and scans? They really, really should never be losing that micro-off. Same situation as with HTs.
This is very true, most Terran's are absolute horse shit at microing their ghosts, destiny's infestor micro can be insane sometimes.
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On July 28 2011 10:05 Purdy8 wrote:
It seems some people are just hell bent on not giving any credit to Destiny for whatever he does.
If he does well at MLG i bet some people will still call him nothing but maybe an 'entertaining streamer' as Slasher put it.
If he makes the Championship Bracket at MLG he will get A LOT of credit.
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On July 28 2011 10:25 lunchforthesky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:05 Purdy8 wrote:
It seems some people are just hell bent on not giving any credit to Destiny for whatever he does.
If he does well at MLG i bet some people will still call him nothing but maybe an 'entertaining streamer' as Slasher put it.
If he makes the Championship Bracket at MLG he will get A LOT of credit.
Maybe from some, i can see a lot of people playing it down with some 'He went mass infestors herp derp no counter need nerf' etc.
I guess we shall see in a few days time how he fairs.
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On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is.
the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing.
also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late.
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On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late.
Are you trying to say, you can't blindly make spellcasters?
I sure hope not, because spellcasters are there for a reason.
The spellcasters for each race should ALWAYS be in your unit comp... ALWAYS.
You seem to act like blindly going ghosts, a VERY, VERY strong unit, puts you at a loss?
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On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late.
"go infestors"... "go ghosts"
You don't get it, you can't just "go" a unit, this isn't a monobattle.
Games aren't just about unit composition they are also about timing and pace and momentum, not to mention micro, macro, long term strategy, player psychology etc.
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United States22883 Posts
On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late.
Right, but there are characteristics of the build that let you know it's coming. You don't just add on ghosts based on feeling, you should have a specific build in mind that incorporates ghosts and the appropriate timing to counter Destiny's build. And really, ghosts should be in vZ and vP anyways,
If Destiny wins 90% of his games against people in the ladder mentality (prepare most generic builds possible to counter any situation), it really doesn't mean anything. You know he's going to take a slow third. You know before his lair is done, there's a window where he just has lings/spine crawlers and not much map control. You know that limiting his gas in-take or forcing him to build hydras/roaches is going to cut down on the efficiency of his mid-game army. You're playing Destiny, not every single Z at once.
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On July 28 2011 10:40 dar5283 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late. Are you trying to say, you can't blindly make spellcasters? You seem to act like blindly going ghosts, a VERY, VERY strong unit, puts you at a loss?
please explain the role of a ghost against a line/bane/muta composition. without making the ghost i can make a tank and 2 extra marines.
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United States22883 Posts
On July 28 2011 10:47 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:40 dar5283 wrote:On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late. Are you trying to say, you can't blindly make spellcasters? You seem to act like blindly going ghosts, a VERY, VERY strong unit, puts you at a loss? please explain the role of a ghost against a line/bane/muta composition. without making the ghost i can make a tank and 2 extra marines.
He doesn't "just go" infestors at a whim. Scout, read what the opponent is doing. You should know if he's getting that many infestors before the eggs even pop.
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Canada1902 Posts
On July 28 2011 10:20 lunchforthesky wrote:
You're giving Destiny way too much credit. When it actually better in a major tournament setting he's still bombing out in round 1.
Lets be objective with some actual facts.
Here was his last MLG performance:
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2011_MLG_Pro_Circuit/Columbus/OpenBracket/Losers
As you can see he made it within a few wins of getting to the championship bracket. This is NOT round 1.
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On July 28 2011 10:49 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:47 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:40 dar5283 wrote:On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late. Are you trying to say, you can't blindly make spellcasters? You seem to act like blindly going ghosts, a VERY, VERY strong unit, puts you at a loss? please explain the role of a ghost against a line/bane/muta composition. without making the ghost i can make a tank and 2 extra marines. He doesn't "just go" infestors at a whim. Scout, read what the opponent is doing. You should know if he's getting that many infestors before the eggs even pop.
I was responding to his claim that blindly going ghosts against every zerg composition is somehow beneficial. The thing is you don't mix in ghosts in your unit comp if your opponent doesn't get a infestation pit and never does. that's just stupid.
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On July 28 2011 10:47 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:40 dar5283 wrote:On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late. Are you trying to say, you can't blindly make spellcasters? You seem to act like blindly going ghosts, a VERY, VERY strong unit, puts you at a loss? please explain the role of a ghost against a line/bane/muta composition. without making the ghost i can make a tank and 2 extra marines.
So if you scout ling/bane/muta, you want to make ghosts? Do you not seem to get the point? The Spellcaster are there for a reason, terrans just refuse to make them in just about every situation.
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On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late.
You're bringing up two unrelated arguments, but neither of them is a real problem.
You can go Infestor against almost any unit composition. But is that any different then a Terran adding Medivacs to his army in the mid-game? They may not get the kills themselves, but they are certainly as valuable. Infestors are just a key part of Destiny's army composition.
Now, you may have trouble scouting those 8 Infestors before they hatch. You can however scout the Zerg's extremely quick 4 vespane geisers, the lack of gas-heavy units or tech, the Infestation Pit, and the lack of units. More importantly, saving up for 8 infestors means the Zerg is sitting on 800 minerals and 1000 gas. Perhaps Terran players should work out a timing that hits before the Infestors arrive, as he's going to be extremely weak at that point.
Here's the thing; The entire Ghost argument is nonsense. Terran players can beat infestors already, simply by playing better. Take a look at that final game between Destiny and Rain for example. Rain did an extremely Marine heavy timing push and got stopped by Spine Crawlers, Zerglings, Banelings, and Infestors - pretty much the ideal composition to deal with mass Marines. Rain didn't lose because Infestors are overpowered and he needed Ghosts. Rain lost because his Marine heavy army did not do enough damage, and he fell way behind on tech, The rest of the game was pretty much just a formality.
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On July 28 2011 10:52 dar5283 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2011 10:47 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:40 dar5283 wrote:On July 28 2011 10:33 JoeSchmoe wrote:On July 28 2011 10:17 Jibba wrote:On July 28 2011 10:11 bigbeau wrote:
I think the ones bashing ghosts are missing the point that ghosts aren't the counter to Destiny's build, theyre just a necessary unit in the composition. Well, that's generally what happens unfortunately. People focus on a unit without ever considering how the player got to that point or at what time. Calling it "mass infestor" or saying "counter with ghosts" is really taking all the nuances out of the play. Almost every Z aims for infestor/BL late game, what matters is how they get there. Just because Flash is able to counter carriers with goliaths doesn't mean you focus on goliaths, since every other T that tries it is much less successful than he is. the problem i think at this point is you can go infestors against any terran unit composition. fungal against bio, np against mech (thor/tank). the terran needs to get ghosts to counter this but you can't just go ghosts blindly against every zerg composition if your opponent doesn't get infestors. this puts terrans in a position where they are always reacting to to what the zerg is doing. in the games i saw vs rain and huk, destiny went infestors regardless of what his opponent is doing. also you don't really know how many ghosts to make. some zergs just get 2-3 but i saw destiny making 8 at one time. you only realize after you scan and see the infestors, then you start making more ghosts but by that time it's too late. Are you trying to say, you can't blindly make spellcasters? You seem to act like blindly going ghosts, a VERY, VERY strong unit, puts you at a loss? please explain the role of a ghost against a line/bane/muta composition. without making the ghost i can make a tank and 2 extra marines. So if you scout ling/bane/muta, you want to make ghosts? Do you not seem to get the point? The Spellcaster are there for a reason, terrans just refuse to make them in just about every situation.
what? if i scout ling/bane/muta i don't want to make ghosts. what are the ghosts for? sniping banelings?
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EPT
