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On July 05 2011 22:49 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 22:43 mikyaJ wrote:
I like the logic though, a Bronze player shouldn't comment on GSL games, because they're no where near the skill level of them. Well a Master player shouldn't comment either because they're no where near that skill level either.
That's like saying, hoho, this Football announcer should shut his mouth these football players are way better than him. A bronze player is a bronze player because they literally have no understanding of the game, they don't even understand build orders or what unit counters what. A better comparison would be an infant trying to criticize an adult. A masters player at least understands the game enough to realize what is going on. And the football announcer thing is completely irrelevant to all of that, because a football announcer would be the same as an esports commentator. Their job is to understand the game (even though Tastosis failed to do that in this case, hence the criticism) so they will have more specialized knowledge. And most of them are okay at the game minus Totalbiscuit being forever gold.
The point is playing is not the same as commenting. A Bronze player could have 3 times the game knowledge of a Masters player.
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On July 05 2011 22:47 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 22:43 kheldorin wrote:On July 05 2011 22:39 Kreb wrote:On July 05 2011 22:31 Cheerio wrote:
Sleec is right. If Nova somehow knew there were no stalkers and started to hunt colossi it would have been just another game episode with initiative on his side but certainly too minor to decide the winner. Sleec is indeed right. Hongun couldve ran the colossi away upon spotting the incoming vikings. Hongun couldve warped in a round of stalkers. Hongun has obs there to spot for it early. The map layout meant the distance from natural to natural (army to army) is fairly long. A viking suicide mission like that would be much more effective on say, Xel Naga 3base vs 3base where armies are close. On top of that, to do that as T you have to be 100% sure you didnt miss any stalkers (and how can you be that?) and you also have to actively look for it. I mean, normally you always expect there to be stalkers, to actually notice the lack of them and act accordingly isnt as easy as it sounds. Imagine how stupid Supernova would look if he went in with 8-10 viking all on their own and lose them all for the cost of one colossi.... That wouldve been a hilariously bad move, and Supernova couldnt be sure that wasnt gonna happen. And HongUn knew that and took advantage of it. SuperNova also had no idea when HongUn stopped Phoenix production. It was a smart calculated risk. I'm fine with Tastosis misanalyzing but then calling the players sloppy and the game "bad" was uncalled for. It wasn't misanalyzing. It was just the fact that HongUn went for an extremely risky build and Supernova should have sensed it. There were so many times he dropped the main and never saw any anti-air and he knew there was Colossus yet didn't at least poke. It was a nearly 5 minute window. I still don't buy the fact that it was a well thought out build... HongUn's just known for very unconventional and risky builds and Tastosis are merely calling him out on that. EDIT: Erm, Supernova destroyed the Stargate in his first drop. He knew there weren't any more Phoenix. Or he could at least safely assume.
Rebuilding stargate wasn't an option?
Anyway - the fact that "we" saw the game without fog of war and SuperNoVa obviosly doesn't would explain a lot.
It would be cool to watch this game from his perspective.
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On July 05 2011 22:47 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 22:43 kheldorin wrote:On July 05 2011 22:39 Kreb wrote:On July 05 2011 22:31 Cheerio wrote:
Sleec is right. If Nova somehow knew there were no stalkers and started to hunt colossi it would have been just another game episode with initiative on his side but certainly too minor to decide the winner. Sleec is indeed right. Hongun couldve ran the colossi away upon spotting the incoming vikings. Hongun couldve warped in a round of stalkers. Hongun has obs there to spot for it early. The map layout meant the distance from natural to natural (army to army) is fairly long. A viking suicide mission like that would be much more effective on say, Xel Naga 3base vs 3base where armies are close. On top of that, to do that as T you have to be 100% sure you didnt miss any stalkers (and how can you be that?) and you also have to actively look for it. I mean, normally you always expect there to be stalkers, to actually notice the lack of them and act accordingly isnt as easy as it sounds. Imagine how stupid Supernova would look if he went in with 8-10 viking all on their own and lose them all for the cost of one colossi.... That wouldve been a hilariously bad move, and Supernova couldnt be sure that wasnt gonna happen. And HongUn knew that and took advantage of it. SuperNova also had no idea when HongUn stopped Phoenix production. It was a smart calculated risk. I'm fine with Tastosis misanalyzing but then calling the players sloppy and the game "bad" was uncalled for. It wasn't misanalyzing. It was just the fact that HongUn went for an extremely risky build and Supernova should have sensed it. There were so many times he dropped the main and never saw any anti-air and he knew there was Colossus yet didn't at least poke. It was a nearly 5 minute window. I still don't buy the fact that it was a well thought out build... HongUn's just known for very unconventional and risky builds and Tastosis are merely calling him out on that. EDIT: Erm, Supernova destroyed the Stargate in his first drop. He knew there weren't any more Phoenix. Or he could at least safely assume.
It probably wasnt well thought out. That transition seemed like something that you come up with when are thinking "im in trouble. How do I fix this? Lets try heavy chargelot arhon." Supernova is watching that replay thinking "I wish I had just killed his collosus marched in there and killed him" because thats what hecould have done but didnt because he wasnt aware what was going on because of how weird it was.
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On July 05 2011 22:47 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 22:43 kheldorin wrote:On July 05 2011 22:39 Kreb wrote:On July 05 2011 22:31 Cheerio wrote:
Sleec is right. If Nova somehow knew there were no stalkers and started to hunt colossi it would have been just another game episode with initiative on his side but certainly too minor to decide the winner. Sleec is indeed right. Hongun couldve ran the colossi away upon spotting the incoming vikings. Hongun couldve warped in a round of stalkers. Hongun has obs there to spot for it early. The map layout meant the distance from natural to natural (army to army) is fairly long. A viking suicide mission like that would be much more effective on say, Xel Naga 3base vs 3base where armies are close. On top of that, to do that as T you have to be 100% sure you didnt miss any stalkers (and how can you be that?) and you also have to actively look for it. I mean, normally you always expect there to be stalkers, to actually notice the lack of them and act accordingly isnt as easy as it sounds. Imagine how stupid Supernova would look if he went in with 8-10 viking all on their own and lose them all for the cost of one colossi.... That wouldve been a hilariously bad move, and Supernova couldnt be sure that wasnt gonna happen. And HongUn knew that and took advantage of it. SuperNova also had no idea when HongUn stopped Phoenix production. It was a smart calculated risk. I'm fine with Tastosis misanalyzing but then calling the players sloppy and the game "bad" was uncalled for. It wasn't misanalyzing. It was just the fact that HongUn went for an extremely risky build and Supernova should have sensed it. There were so many times he dropped the main and never saw any anti-air and he knew there was Colossus yet didn't at least poke. It was a nearly 5 minute window. I still don't buy the fact that it was a well thought out build... HongUn's just known for very unconventional and risky builds. EDIT: Erm, Supernova destroyed the Stargate in his first drop. He knew there weren't any more Phoenix. Or he could at least safely assume.
But phoenix production stopped way before the stargate was destroyed. There could be 4-5 phoenixes roaming around.
Even in the final engagement, Tastosis didn't know how it would end up when it was pretty clear that HongUn's army would crush through that. They keep saying how HongUn had little anti-air but the "archons will help out" in killing the vikings. Seriously? The archons are not there to kill the vikings.
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On July 05 2011 22:52 mikyaJ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 22:49 Heavenly wrote:On July 05 2011 22:43 mikyaJ wrote:
I like the logic though, a Bronze player shouldn't comment on GSL games, because they're no where near the skill level of them. Well a Master player shouldn't comment either because they're no where near that skill level either.
That's like saying, hoho, this Football announcer should shut his mouth these football players are way better than him. A bronze player is a bronze player because they literally have no understanding of the game, they don't even understand build orders or what unit counters what. A better comparison would be an infant trying to criticize an adult. A masters player at least understands the game enough to realize what is going on. And the football announcer thing is completely irrelevant to all of that, because a football announcer would be the same as an esports commentator. Their job is to understand the game (even though Tastosis failed to do that in this case, hence the criticism) so they will have more specialized knowledge. And most of them are okay at the game minus Totalbiscuit being forever gold. The point is playing is not the same as commenting. A Bronze player could have 3 times the game knowledge of a Masters player.
That player must have 2 APM? If you have that game knowledge, where did you get it? By playing. A player who is experienced enough to have knowledge on the level of the top players simply cannot be bad enough to be bronze.
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On July 05 2011 20:26 ramon wrote:fixd by the way can you please stop the balance whine? idra isn't even playing
At least MC has won a tourney recently and gotten two top 3s, and the stars war HAD top koreans in them, it had nestea but he didn't win.
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Uhhh, nice results. I was a little worried about Nada because it was a tough group but he aced it.
Zenio seems to be on a roll as of late.
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Zenio decides to finally stop getting tossed around by Terrans in the group stages, ruins my liquibet in the process.
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On July 05 2011 22:54 Redmark wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 22:52 mikyaJ wrote:On July 05 2011 22:49 Heavenly wrote:On July 05 2011 22:43 mikyaJ wrote:
I like the logic though, a Bronze player shouldn't comment on GSL games, because they're no where near the skill level of them. Well a Master player shouldn't comment either because they're no where near that skill level either.
That's like saying, hoho, this Football announcer should shut his mouth these football players are way better than him. A bronze player is a bronze player because they literally have no understanding of the game, they don't even understand build orders or what unit counters what. A better comparison would be an infant trying to criticize an adult. A masters player at least understands the game enough to realize what is going on. And the football announcer thing is completely irrelevant to all of that, because a football announcer would be the same as an esports commentator. Their job is to understand the game (even though Tastosis failed to do that in this case, hence the criticism) so they will have more specialized knowledge. And most of them are okay at the game minus Totalbiscuit being forever gold. The point is playing is not the same as commenting. A Bronze player could have 3 times the game knowledge of a Masters player. That player must have 2 APM? If you have that game knowledge, where did you get it? By playing. A player who is experienced enough to have knowledge on the level of the top players simply cannot be bad enough to be bronze.
What does your first sentence even mean.. ಠ_ಠ
Anyways, from watching pro players play. From a Masters player playing other Masters players how does he get knowledge into what the Pro's are doing?
And the whole point to begin with is that you don't need to play at a high level to acquire high level knowledge, you can by observing players playing.
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On July 05 2011 22:55 brentsen wrote:
Uhhh, nice results. I was a little worried about Nada because it was a tough group but he aced it.
Zenio seems to be on a roll as of late.
Dude..... It's NaDa!!! How can you be worried for him.
He's practicing hardcore now that he has holidays :DDDD
We saw a glimpse of NaDa's genius mind.
Mark my words! NaDa will own it all up this GSL. And then everyone will face the awesomeness that is NaDa :D
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On July 05 2011 22:52 BlindDruid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 22:47 pdd wrote:On July 05 2011 22:43 kheldorin wrote:On July 05 2011 22:39 Kreb wrote:On July 05 2011 22:31 Cheerio wrote:
Sleec is right. If Nova somehow knew there were no stalkers and started to hunt colossi it would have been just another game episode with initiative on his side but certainly too minor to decide the winner. Sleec is indeed right. Hongun couldve ran the colossi away upon spotting the incoming vikings. Hongun couldve warped in a round of stalkers. Hongun has obs there to spot for it early. The map layout meant the distance from natural to natural (army to army) is fairly long. A viking suicide mission like that would be much more effective on say, Xel Naga 3base vs 3base where armies are close. On top of that, to do that as T you have to be 100% sure you didnt miss any stalkers (and how can you be that?) and you also have to actively look for it. I mean, normally you always expect there to be stalkers, to actually notice the lack of them and act accordingly isnt as easy as it sounds. Imagine how stupid Supernova would look if he went in with 8-10 viking all on their own and lose them all for the cost of one colossi.... That wouldve been a hilariously bad move, and Supernova couldnt be sure that wasnt gonna happen. And HongUn knew that and took advantage of it. SuperNova also had no idea when HongUn stopped Phoenix production. It was a smart calculated risk. I'm fine with Tastosis misanalyzing but then calling the players sloppy and the game "bad" was uncalled for. It wasn't misanalyzing. It was just the fact that HongUn went for an extremely risky build and Supernova should have sensed it. There were so many times he dropped the main and never saw any anti-air and he knew there was Colossus yet didn't at least poke. It was a nearly 5 minute window. I still don't buy the fact that it was a well thought out build... HongUn's just known for very unconventional and risky builds and Tastosis are merely calling him out on that. EDIT: Erm, Supernova destroyed the Stargate in his first drop. He knew there weren't any more Phoenix. Or he could at least safely assume. Rebuilding stargate wasn't an option? Anyway - the fact that "we" saw the game without fog of war and SuperNoVa obviosly doesn't would explain a lot. It would be cool to watch this game from his perspective.
Yeah, there's definitely a lot of "could haves and should haves" that we can put on Supernova, but Tastosis was merely commenting from their perspective, and given what they saw, HongUn was playing extremely risky for 5+ minutes.
As for the stargate, at that late stage when you're massing up on Colossus, I doubt you'll have enough gas to mass up Phoenix as well especially on two base (HongUn only got his third much later). Also you can't mass up Phoenix fast enough to keep up with a reactored Starport pumping Vikings.
It feels to me that his drops and his Viking pokes should have been enough to clue him in on the fact there wasn't anything and he could have sniped at least 1 Colossus before the battle. And it made no sense that he scanned the army and had his Vikings fly over the main rather than poking at the Colossus from the high ground of HongUn's main (before the engagement).
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On July 05 2011 22:36 Heavenly wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 22:33 Tula wrote:On July 05 2011 22:22 Sleec wrote:On July 05 2011 22:18 Tula wrote:On July 05 2011 22:13 Sleec wrote:On July 05 2011 22:11 Tula wrote:On July 05 2011 22:08 Sleec wrote:On July 05 2011 22:06 Herry wrote:On July 05 2011 22:05 Husnan wrote:
I don't know why Tastosis kept being so critical of HongUn, this game seems pretty brilliant from him.
Bait 10 vikings, with phoenixes and a few colossi, but only make chargelots and archons to rape everything on the ground.. That was damn good imo. there was a timing of about 5 minutes where supernova could have completely destroyed hongun in every way but he just didnt attack He had an observer with supernova's army the whole time, he can easily warp in a bunch of stalkers to deal with the vikings. My god some of these posts in this thread have lowered my IQ Obviously since you post something like that. Countering Vikings with Stalkers only works if you have decent amounts. If you have 4-5 Stalkers without blink the vikings will almost certainly snipe 1 or 2 without any losses. Esp. If you pull the Colossi out of position with a drop or 2. I'm in GM, what league are you in? Since you have no idea what you're talking about. Nice ad hominem. Are you honestly trying to tell me that you can kill 8 vikings with 5 stalkers before they have sniped a colossus? If so i'd like to play your version of SC2 since it obviously isn't the standard game everyone else is playing. During the second drop Hungon ran his 3 colossus straight in to stop the drop, without any anti-air in sight. If Supernova had had his Vikings in position at the edge he could have sniped 2 of them from a range where stalkers can't even move. Frankly that's standard terran tactics, try to split up his army and snipe the exposed parts. Maybe next time you'll answer the point of my post instead of trying to brag with your league ranking. And again, you seem to ignore my post about being able to run the Collosi back and warping in the stalkers to engage the vikings before they can even reach the Collosi. The only thing you said correct was when he did the drop, yes he could've killed every single Collosi at that moment. right i'll simply ignore you since you insist on being a troll. Hungon gambled on his opponent being too passive to make use of the massive window his build gave him and he gambled correctly. Go back to your dream land where instantly massive amount of units appear without any warpin time or gateway cooldowns never mind the ressources needed to build units instantly. And i'll go back to playing the standard game everyone else is. Please explain this massive window open to Supernova to me. He would never engage that without a high enough viking account, which creates a window for HongUn to do whatever he wants. Viking production takes over medivac production which means the ground army is even weaker than it would be. HongUn cripples the strength of the ground army while forcing at least an equal resource expenditure of vikings to make up for the cost of the colossi. Since so much of your resources are devoted into chargelots you also have the gas to constantly chronoboost out upgrades. The addition of archons makes it so that while marauders have to kite the chargelots (which takes a lot more apm than amoving your chargelots) the medivacs will lag behind the stimmed kiting army. Archon speed is superior to medivac speed so they will kill all of the medivacs. Archons can also hit the kiting marauders eventually. When they have stimmed a ton to avoid your chargelots, and their medivacs are gone, you back off with your chargelots, warp in more, and continue. Then you can resume colossi production because they have to decide whether or not they are going to make medivacs or vikings. If you scout vikings being made, you can cut colossi production and they have useless vikings and no medivacs. Without medivacs they won't be able to stim and kite unless they feel like putting their entire army into the deep red. If you scout medivacs being made you continue to product colossi. Huk showed this style on his stream and said oGs protosses are playing around with it a lot.
You are mixing up 2 different phases of the game in your post. The window i am talking about was during the constant colossus production, BEFORE he actually built archons. At that point hungon had a rising amount of colossi and a negligible ground army. His zealot count was rising fast, but he didn't have charge yet, basically all he had were his colossi.
Any GM Terran should know that that is your window to attack. Stim marauders with medivacs trade insanely well against zealots, and with vikings (and no you don't need 12, you need 4-6 at that point) you can ward away his colossi or force him into army trades.
At the point where he actually did attack his window was gone. He might have microed better, but the 3 (maybe 4) archons with the gaggle of chargelots was stronger than his ground army, since marauders don't kite well against those numbers anymore.
If Supernovas multitasking had been good enough he could have dropped and attacked at the same time during all those minutes, and Hungon would have had little to no answer. You cannot split up a colossus zealot ball without loosing most of your synergy.
Note if Hungon had rushed to Archons instead of Colossi we would be talking about a completly different game. His endgame composition with the complete ground switch was very powerfull and obviously won him the game. His midgame was imho weak and very risky.
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On July 05 2011 22:16 parazice wrote:
that why i prefer Wolf+Qxc >Tastosis+Artosis
You mean "Tastless+Artosis" XD
But seriously, I love the casting archon but they need to be open minded and lose player-specific bias before a match begins. And realize that there is fog of war in this game that a players do not see what the other has/is doing. Especially Artosis. Every game he starts with a mindset that "Player A is a better one than a player B" and analyze from there until the win/loss becomes clear. I have been annoyed by that since forever.
And no, producing more phenis wasn't, would never have been, a good idea in that situation. If Artosis was put in Hongun's shoe (with his strategic genius plus Hongun's mechanic) I have a feeling that he would have lost. XD
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On July 05 2011 23:00 Tula wrote:
You are mixing up 2 different phases of the game in your post. The window i am talking about was during the constant colossus production, BEFORE he actually built archons. At that point hungon had a rising amount of colossi and a negligible ground army. His zealot count was rising fast, but he didn't have charge yet, basically all he had were his colossi.
But what supernova had was a tank-based army. (which is exactly why Hongun started his transition to chargelots) And his viking production was just ramping up. It's not an easy (or sound) decision to move out with a couple of tanks against warp-ins. You need a decent amount of them.
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Yay Nada made it through! Sad about MVP though 
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On July 05 2011 23:00 pdd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 22:52 BlindDruid wrote:On July 05 2011 22:47 pdd wrote:On July 05 2011 22:43 kheldorin wrote:On July 05 2011 22:39 Kreb wrote:On July 05 2011 22:31 Cheerio wrote:
Sleec is right. If Nova somehow knew there were no stalkers and started to hunt colossi it would have been just another game episode with initiative on his side but certainly too minor to decide the winner. Sleec is indeed right. Hongun couldve ran the colossi away upon spotting the incoming vikings. Hongun couldve warped in a round of stalkers. Hongun has obs there to spot for it early. The map layout meant the distance from natural to natural (army to army) is fairly long. A viking suicide mission like that would be much more effective on say, Xel Naga 3base vs 3base where armies are close. On top of that, to do that as T you have to be 100% sure you didnt miss any stalkers (and how can you be that?) and you also have to actively look for it. I mean, normally you always expect there to be stalkers, to actually notice the lack of them and act accordingly isnt as easy as it sounds. Imagine how stupid Supernova would look if he went in with 8-10 viking all on their own and lose them all for the cost of one colossi.... That wouldve been a hilariously bad move, and Supernova couldnt be sure that wasnt gonna happen. And HongUn knew that and took advantage of it. SuperNova also had no idea when HongUn stopped Phoenix production. It was a smart calculated risk. I'm fine with Tastosis misanalyzing but then calling the players sloppy and the game "bad" was uncalled for. It wasn't misanalyzing. It was just the fact that HongUn went for an extremely risky build and Supernova should have sensed it. There were so many times he dropped the main and never saw any anti-air and he knew there was Colossus yet didn't at least poke. It was a nearly 5 minute window. I still don't buy the fact that it was a well thought out build... HongUn's just known for very unconventional and risky builds and Tastosis are merely calling him out on that. EDIT: Erm, Supernova destroyed the Stargate in his first drop. He knew there weren't any more Phoenix. Or he could at least safely assume. Rebuilding stargate wasn't an option? Anyway - the fact that "we" saw the game without fog of war and SuperNoVa obviosly doesn't would explain a lot. It would be cool to watch this game from his perspective. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of "could haves and should haves" that we can put on Supernova, but Tastosis was merely commenting from their perspective, and given what they saw, HongUn was playing extremely risky for 5+ minutes. As for the stargate, at that late stage when you're massing up on Colossus, I doubt you'll have enough gas to mass up Phoenix as well especially on two base (HongUn only got his third much later). Also you can't mass up Phoenix fast enough to keep up with a reactored Starport pumping Vikings. It feels to me that his drops and his Viking pokes should have been enough to clue him in on the fact there wasn't anything and he could have sniped at least 1 Colossus before the battle. And it made no sense that he scanned the army and had his Vikings fly over the main rather than poking at the Colossus from the high ground of HongUn's main (before the engagement).
Even Artosis thought that HongUn would go a Phoenix+Colossus build. Especially when HongUn faked a phoenix harass on the mineral lines with just 3 phoenixes. If you see a stargate + mostly mineral based ground army, it's not unreasonable to think that there are phoenixes flying around and you would need vikings to protect the mineral line.
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On July 05 2011 22:54 kheldorin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 22:47 pdd wrote:On July 05 2011 22:43 kheldorin wrote:On July 05 2011 22:39 Kreb wrote:On July 05 2011 22:31 Cheerio wrote:
Sleec is right. If Nova somehow knew there were no stalkers and started to hunt colossi it would have been just another game episode with initiative on his side but certainly too minor to decide the winner. Sleec is indeed right. Hongun couldve ran the colossi away upon spotting the incoming vikings. Hongun couldve warped in a round of stalkers. Hongun has obs there to spot for it early. The map layout meant the distance from natural to natural (army to army) is fairly long. A viking suicide mission like that would be much more effective on say, Xel Naga 3base vs 3base where armies are close. On top of that, to do that as T you have to be 100% sure you didnt miss any stalkers (and how can you be that?) and you also have to actively look for it. I mean, normally you always expect there to be stalkers, to actually notice the lack of them and act accordingly isnt as easy as it sounds. Imagine how stupid Supernova would look if he went in with 8-10 viking all on their own and lose them all for the cost of one colossi.... That wouldve been a hilariously bad move, and Supernova couldnt be sure that wasnt gonna happen. And HongUn knew that and took advantage of it. SuperNova also had no idea when HongUn stopped Phoenix production. It was a smart calculated risk. I'm fine with Tastosis misanalyzing but then calling the players sloppy and the game "bad" was uncalled for. It wasn't misanalyzing. It was just the fact that HongUn went for an extremely risky build and Supernova should have sensed it. There were so many times he dropped the main and never saw any anti-air and he knew there was Colossus yet didn't at least poke. It was a nearly 5 minute window. I still don't buy the fact that it was a well thought out build... HongUn's just known for very unconventional and risky builds. EDIT: Erm, Supernova destroyed the Stargate in his first drop. He knew there weren't any more Phoenix. Or he could at least safely assume. But phoenix production stopped way before the stargate was destroyed. There could be 4-5 phoenixes roaming around. Even in the final engagement, Tastosis didn't know how it would end up when it was pretty clear that HongUn's army would crush through that. They keep saying how HongUn had little anti-air but the "archons will help out" in killing the vikings. Seriously? The archons are not there to kill the vikings.
You don't keep and hide 4-5 Phoenixes randomly. You use them to scout, harass, stop drops or leave them with your Colossi to protect it. All of which never occurred. Supernova never saw a scouting or harassing Phoenix, the Phoenixes didn't stop the drop and Supernova saw a bit of the Colossi and no Phoenixes with them.
Archons do 25(+3 each upgrade level) damage (splash) against Vikings. Vikings have 125 health and 0 armor and tend to clump up when attacking. Archons ARE good against Vikings. But that's a bit off-topic, the purpose of the Archons in that army composition is to tank damage. The main damage dealer in that army were the Zealots and Colossi, and I believe there were a couple of Immortals as well.
Had Supernova sniped the Colossi faster, retreated while taking out the Colossi (as Artosis mentioned), he wouldn't have been trapped by the forcefields and could have gotten to a more defensible position.
About the charge zealot/archon build though, it is a very good build that a lot of Protosses are using against Terrans these days. But they never build Colossi first and they almost always mix in a healthy number of sentries/stalkers. The way HongUn did it was just very risky and weird.
On July 05 2011 23:05 kheldorin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2011 23:00 pdd wrote:On July 05 2011 22:52 BlindDruid wrote:On July 05 2011 22:47 pdd wrote:On July 05 2011 22:43 kheldorin wrote:On July 05 2011 22:39 Kreb wrote:On July 05 2011 22:31 Cheerio wrote:
Sleec is right. If Nova somehow knew there were no stalkers and started to hunt colossi it would have been just another game episode with initiative on his side but certainly too minor to decide the winner. Sleec is indeed right. Hongun couldve ran the colossi away upon spotting the incoming vikings. Hongun couldve warped in a round of stalkers. Hongun has obs there to spot for it early. The map layout meant the distance from natural to natural (army to army) is fairly long. A viking suicide mission like that would be much more effective on say, Xel Naga 3base vs 3base where armies are close. On top of that, to do that as T you have to be 100% sure you didnt miss any stalkers (and how can you be that?) and you also have to actively look for it. I mean, normally you always expect there to be stalkers, to actually notice the lack of them and act accordingly isnt as easy as it sounds. Imagine how stupid Supernova would look if he went in with 8-10 viking all on their own and lose them all for the cost of one colossi.... That wouldve been a hilariously bad move, and Supernova couldnt be sure that wasnt gonna happen. And HongUn knew that and took advantage of it. SuperNova also had no idea when HongUn stopped Phoenix production. It was a smart calculated risk. I'm fine with Tastosis misanalyzing but then calling the players sloppy and the game "bad" was uncalled for. It wasn't misanalyzing. It was just the fact that HongUn went for an extremely risky build and Supernova should have sensed it. There were so many times he dropped the main and never saw any anti-air and he knew there was Colossus yet didn't at least poke. It was a nearly 5 minute window. I still don't buy the fact that it was a well thought out build... HongUn's just known for very unconventional and risky builds and Tastosis are merely calling him out on that. EDIT: Erm, Supernova destroyed the Stargate in his first drop. He knew there weren't any more Phoenix. Or he could at least safely assume. Rebuilding stargate wasn't an option? Anyway - the fact that "we" saw the game without fog of war and SuperNoVa obviosly doesn't would explain a lot. It would be cool to watch this game from his perspective. Yeah, there's definitely a lot of "could haves and should haves" that we can put on Supernova, but Tastosis was merely commenting from their perspective, and given what they saw, HongUn was playing extremely risky for 5+ minutes. As for the stargate, at that late stage when you're massing up on Colossus, I doubt you'll have enough gas to mass up Phoenix as well especially on two base (HongUn only got his third much later). Also you can't mass up Phoenix fast enough to keep up with a reactored Starport pumping Vikings. It feels to me that his drops and his Viking pokes should have been enough to clue him in on the fact there wasn't anything and he could have sniped at least 1 Colossus before the battle. And it made no sense that he scanned the army and had his Vikings fly over the main rather than poking at the Colossus from the high ground of HongUn's main (before the engagement). Even Artosis thought that HongUn would go a Phoenix+Colossus build. Especially when HongUn faked a phoenix harass on the mineral lines with just 3 phoenixes. If you see a stargate + mostly mineral based ground army, it's not unreasonable to think that there are phoenixes flying around and you would need vikings to protect the mineral line.
Phoenixes never appeared beyond the 3 which you mention and Supernova's positioning of his Vikings with his army rather than in his mineral lines tells you that he wasn't really worried about Phoenix harrassments anymore.
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Nooo, Mvp, y u lose? I don't have anyone to root for yet again .
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EPT
