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Since everyone's talking about using Ghosts vs infestor broodlord, I though I'd add some actual useful information into this thread. Here goes:
Ghost: costs 200/100, 100hp, snipe 45dmg 10range, emp takes away 100 energy
Broodlord: cost 150/150, 225hp, 20dmg, 9.5range
Infestor cost 100/150 90 hp, fungal 36 dmg (+30 to armored?)
Okay now here are some real world considerations
Ghosts are useless vs lings or banes, they are too slow to get away, any tanks behind them will hit them with splash, it takes FIVE snipes to kill 1 broodlord, or 2 snipes to kill an infestor. There snipe range is only .5 better than the broodlords. It takes 5 hits for a broodlord to kill a ghost (not counting broodling attacks and take into consideration tank friendly fire)
Infestors counter everything, fungal detects cloaked units, lols on 10 marines at a time, stops any mobility like stim, shuts down any air units (by freezing them and doing damage), gets a huge bonus to armored, and they can parisite any massive units like thors, they can cloak and move at no energy cost, and fungal or infested marines can be great harass on worker lines. Also they are usually not hanging out in front of an army waiting to be emp'd and it takes 2 emps to clear their energy so they can't fungal.
So does anyone seriously think that marching a bunch of ghosts that cost 200/100 to the front of your army to try and land 5 snipes per broodlord while they are hovering over ling bane with infestors that can counter anything that gets in range is a viable way to deal with them?. Seriously?
What actually happens when you try this? Well the zerg attacks the ghosts, the broodlords and ling bane instantly kill them. Anything that tries to move up and support the ghosts gets fungaled and evaporates to ling and banelings, if you have tanks they friendly fire your units as well, and then the broodlords easily clean up. If zerg has broodlords they also have corrupters a few corrupters and some fungal and vikings aren't an issue either.
So unless the zerg is going to carelessly float the broodlords completely unsupported so you can snipe them off and have some marines to keep the broodlings dying, it's just not going to happen.
Does this sound about right?
As for hunter seeker missile, it does 100 damage, broodlords have 225hp. Do you really that with fungal, corruptors in play this is a threat to this either? If you target the ling bane, they can outrun it and there is a little line from the missile showing them exactly which unit it's targeted on so they can easily split. Think about how many missiles and ravens that would take as well to deal with just a few broodlords, HSM takes 125 energy to cast, ravens max energy is 200. You're just not going to have 2 ravens per broodlord, and they would still have 25 health left.
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Thanks for ruining another LR thread, guys!
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On June 17 2011 13:53 JoeSchmoe wrote:Even morrow thinks this particular composition is difficult for terrans Show nested quote +I feel zerg has an advantage simply because terran don't have quite the mobility required to deal with harass and counters. I also think broodlord/corruptor/infestor compositions are extremely strong against terran and terran don't have a great answer when you aquire a sizeable army of that particular composition.
Who is arguing it isn't difficult?
Also Morrow can't think it's that bad considering he's decided to play terran against other zergs when possible. The way some people are arguing you'd think it would be better to play a ZvZ even if it's not his best matchup.
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On June 17 2011 14:08 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 13:53 JoeSchmoe wrote:Even morrow thinks this particular composition is difficult for terrans I feel zerg has an advantage simply because terran don't have quite the mobility required to deal with harass and counters. I also think broodlord/corruptor/infestor compositions are extremely strong against terran and terran don't have a great answer when you aquire a sizeable army of that particular composition. Who is arguing it isn't difficult? Also Morrow can't think it's that bad considering he's decided to play terran against other zergs when possible. The way some people are arguing you'd think it would be better to play a ZvZ even if it's not his best matchup.
He play TvZ because his ZvZ is bad :o
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Nada nooooooooooo!
It's okay though because MorroW is an awesome player and always entertaining to watch :D
Damn just noticed 7 of the 12 cemented in the play offs are zerg~ Boo at ZvZ's!
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On June 17 2011 14:03 Reborn8u wrote:
Since everyone's talking about using Ghosts vs infestor broodlord, I though I'd add some actual useful information into this thread. Here goes:
Ghost: costs 200/100, 100hp, snipe 45dmg 10range, emp takes away 100 energy
Broodlord: cost 150/150, 225hp, 20dmg, 9.5range
Infestor cost 100/150 90 hp, fungal 36 dmg (+30 to armored?)
Okay now here are some real world considerations
Ghosts are useless vs lings or banes, they are too slow to get away, any tanks behind them will hit them with splash, it takes FIVE snipes to kill 1 broodlord, or 2 snipes to kill an infestor. There snipe range is only .5 better than the broodlords. It takes 5 hits for a broodlord to kill a ghost (not counting broodling attacks and take into consideration tank friendly fire)
Infestors counter everything, fungal detects cloaked units, lols on 10 marines at a time, stops any mobility like stim, shuts down any air units (by freezing them and doing damage), gets a huge bonus to armored, and they can parisite any massive units like thors, they can cloak and move at no energy cost, and fungal or infested marines can be great harass on worker lines. Also they are usually not hanging out in front of an army waiting to be emp'd and it takes 2 emps to clear their energy so they can't fungal.
So does anyone seriously think that marching a bunch of ghosts that cost 200/100 to the front of your army to try and land 5 snipes per broodlord while they are hovering over ling bane with infestors that can counter anything that gets in range is a viable way to deal with them?. Seriously?
What actually happens when you try this? Well the zerg attacks the ghosts, the broodlords and ling bane instantly kill them. Anything that tries to move up and support the ghosts gets fungaled and evaporates to ling and banelings, if you have tanks they friendly fire your units as well, and then the broodlords easily clean up. If zerg has broodlords they also have corrupters a few corrupters and some fungal and vikings aren't an issue either.
So unless the zerg is going to carelessly float the broodlords completely unsupported so you can snipe them off and have some marines to keep the broodlings dying, it's just not going to happen.
Does this sound about right?
As for hunter seeker missile, it does 100 damage, broodlords have 225hp. Do you really that with fungal, corruptors in play this is a threat to this either? If you target the ling bane, they can outrun it and there is a little line from the missile showing them exactly which unit it's targeted on so they can easily split. Think about how many missiles and ravens that would take as well to deal with just a few broodlords, HSM takes 125 energy to cast, ravens max energy is 200. You're just not going to have 2 ravens per broodlord, and they would still have 25 health left.
no matter how fast i rapdily snipe infestors it always lives with 1 hp. Is it just me who cant 2 snipe shot infestor?
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On June 17 2011 14:03 Reborn8u wrote:
Since everyone's talking about using Ghosts vs infestor broodlord, I though I'd add some actual useful information into this thread. Here goes:
Ghost: costs 200/100, 100hp, snipe 45dmg 10range, emp takes away 100 energy
Broodlord: cost 150/150, 225hp, 20dmg, 9.5range
Infestor cost 100/150 90 hp, fungal 36 dmg (+30 to armored?)
Okay now here are some real world considerations
Ghosts are useless vs lings or banes, they are too slow to get away, any tanks behind them will hit them with splash, it takes FIVE snipes to kill 1 broodlord, or 2 snipes to kill an infestor. There snipe range is only .5 better than the broodlords. It takes 5 hits for a broodlord to kill a ghost (not counting broodling attacks and take into consideration tank friendly fire)
Infestors counter everything, fungal detects cloaked units, lols on 10 marines at a time, stops any mobility like stim, shuts down any air units (by freezing them and doing damage), gets a huge bonus to armored, and they can parisite any massive units like thors, they can cloak and move at no energy cost, and fungal or infested marines can be great harass on worker lines. Also they are usually not hanging out in front of an army waiting to be emp'd and it takes 2 emps to clear their energy so they can't fungal.
So does anyone seriously think that marching a bunch of ghosts that cost 200/100 to the front of your army to try and land 5 snipes per broodlord while they are hovering over ling bane with infestors that can counter anything that gets in range is a viable way to deal with them?. Seriously?
What actually happens when you try this? Well the zerg attacks the ghosts, the broodlords and ling bane instantly kill them. Anything that tries to move up and support the ghosts gets fungaled and evaporates to ling and banelings, if you have tanks they friendly fire your units as well, and then the broodlords easily clean up. If zerg has broodlords they also have corrupters a few corrupters and some fungal and vikings aren't an issue either.
So unless the zerg is going to carelessly float the broodlords completely unsupported so you can snipe them off and have some marines to keep the broodlings dying, it's just not going to happen.
Does this sound about right?
As for hunter seeker missile, it does 100 damage, broodlords have 225hp. Do you really that with fungal, corruptors in play this is a threat to this either? If you target the ling bane, they can outrun it and there is a little line from the missile showing them exactly which unit it's targeted on so they can easily split. Think about how many missiles and ravens that would take as well to deal with just a few broodlords, HSM takes 125 energy to cast, ravens max energy is 200. You're just not going to have 2 ravens per broodlord, and they would still have 25 health left.
+commander there is something name infestor kills our marines instantly should we emp them?
-no no just wait here and die with honor.
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On June 17 2011 14:18 SenorChang wrote:
Nada nooooooooooo!
It's okay though because MorroW is an awesome player and always entertaining to watch :D
Damn just noticed 7 of the 12 cemented in the play offs are zerg~ Boo at ZvZ's!
The next qualifier is guaranteed not to be a zerg, and I don't like their chances in the left over ones against naniwa/MC/Sjow/Kiwikaki Though it would be pretty crazy if Idra was not in Zenio's qualifier bracket.
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A strategy that's less stupid:
Cloak
EMP ball of Infestors, now none of your vikings will be fungaled omg
Use remaining energy to snipe banelings
Marines and vikings pewpew Broodlords
In all seriousness why the fuck would you lead with Ghosts to snipe Broodlords instead of EMP Infestors? It's almost like you're trying to use Ghosts in the least efficient method to "prove" they're bad units.
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On June 17 2011 14:24 Cryhavoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 14:03 Reborn8u wrote:
Since everyone's talking about using Ghosts vs infestor broodlord, I though I'd add some actual useful information into this thread. Here goes:
Ghost: costs 200/100, 100hp, snipe 45dmg 10range, emp takes away 100 energy
Broodlord: cost 150/150, 225hp, 20dmg, 9.5range
Infestor cost 100/150 90 hp, fungal 36 dmg (+30 to armored?)
Okay now here are some real world considerations
Ghosts are useless vs lings or banes, they are too slow to get away, any tanks behind them will hit them with splash, it takes FIVE snipes to kill 1 broodlord, or 2 snipes to kill an infestor. There snipe range is only .5 better than the broodlords. It takes 5 hits for a broodlord to kill a ghost (not counting broodling attacks and take into consideration tank friendly fire)
Infestors counter everything, fungal detects cloaked units, lols on 10 marines at a time, stops any mobility like stim, shuts down any air units (by freezing them and doing damage), gets a huge bonus to armored, and they can parisite any massive units like thors, they can cloak and move at no energy cost, and fungal or infested marines can be great harass on worker lines. Also they are usually not hanging out in front of an army waiting to be emp'd and it takes 2 emps to clear their energy so they can't fungal.
So does anyone seriously think that marching a bunch of ghosts that cost 200/100 to the front of your army to try and land 5 snipes per broodlord while they are hovering over ling bane with infestors that can counter anything that gets in range is a viable way to deal with them?. Seriously?
What actually happens when you try this? Well the zerg attacks the ghosts, the broodlords and ling bane instantly kill them. Anything that tries to move up and support the ghosts gets fungaled and evaporates to ling and banelings, if you have tanks they friendly fire your units as well, and then the broodlords easily clean up. If zerg has broodlords they also have corrupters a few corrupters and some fungal and vikings aren't an issue either.
So unless the zerg is going to carelessly float the broodlords completely unsupported so you can snipe them off and have some marines to keep the broodlings dying, it's just not going to happen.
Does this sound about right?
As for hunter seeker missile, it does 100 damage, broodlords have 225hp. Do you really that with fungal, corruptors in play this is a threat to this either? If you target the ling bane, they can outrun it and there is a little line from the missile showing them exactly which unit it's targeted on so they can easily split. Think about how many missiles and ravens that would take as well to deal with just a few broodlords, HSM takes 125 energy to cast, ravens max energy is 200. You're just not going to have 2 ravens per broodlord, and they would still have 25 health left. +commander there is something name infestor kills our marines instantly should we emp them? -no no just wait here and die with honor.
+Sir, we did it, we emp'd the infestors! YES! Wait , omg AHHHHHH! ..........
-Come in, hello, do you read me? Guess we better make more ghosts, it's just too bad all the infestors and broodlords are still alive and still had enough energy to blanket us with fungal.
+Ghost reporting
-Alright, go emp the infestors 2x each before they can fungal, snipe the broodlords 5x each, and don't let the 50 banlings and 50 lings kill you, got it?
+Okay, so wheres the backup?
-Sorry son, we can't take the risk of loosing everything to fungal, broodlords, ling and baneling, so it's up to you
+............
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no nada ?! 
well there is still boxer....
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On June 17 2011 14:03 Reborn8u wrote:
Since everyone's talking about using Ghosts vs infestor broodlord, I though I'd add some actual useful information into this thread. Here goes:
Ghost: costs 200/100, 100hp, snipe 45dmg 10range, emp takes away 100 energy
Broodlord: cost 150/150, 225hp, 20dmg, 9.5range
Infestor cost 100/150 90 hp, fungal 36 dmg (+30 to armored?)
Okay now here are some real world considerations
Ghosts are useless vs lings or banes, they are too slow to get away, any tanks behind them will hit them with splash, it takes FIVE snipes to kill 1 broodlord, or 2 snipes to kill an infestor. There snipe range is only .5 better than the broodlords. It takes 5 hits for a broodlord to kill a ghost (not counting broodling attacks and take into consideration tank friendly fire)
Infestors counter everything, fungal detects cloaked units, lols on 10 marines at a time, stops any mobility like stim, shuts down any air units (by freezing them and doing damage), gets a huge bonus to armored, and they can parisite any massive units like thors, they can cloak and move at no energy cost, and fungal or infested marines can be great harass on worker lines. Also they are usually not hanging out in front of an army waiting to be emp'd and it takes 2 emps to clear their energy so they can't fungal.
So does anyone seriously think that marching a bunch of ghosts that cost 200/100 to the front of your army to try and land 5 snipes per broodlord while they are hovering over ling bane with infestors that can counter anything that gets in range is a viable way to deal with them?. Seriously?
What actually happens when you try this? Well the zerg attacks the ghosts, the broodlords and ling bane instantly kill them. Anything that tries to move up and support the ghosts gets fungaled and evaporates to ling and banelings, if you have tanks they friendly fire your units as well, and then the broodlords easily clean up. If zerg has broodlords they also have corrupters a few corrupters and some fungal and vikings aren't an issue either.
So unless the zerg is going to carelessly float the broodlords completely unsupported so you can snipe them off and have some marines to keep the broodlings dying, it's just not going to happen.
Does this sound about right?
As for hunter seeker missile, it does 100 damage, broodlords have 225hp. Do you really that with fungal, corruptors in play this is a threat to this either? If you target the ling bane, they can outrun it and there is a little line from the missile showing them exactly which unit it's targeted on so they can easily split. Think about how many missiles and ravens that would take as well to deal with just a few broodlords, HSM takes 125 energy to cast, ravens max energy is 200. You're just not going to have 2 ravens per broodlord, and they would still have 25 health left.
Brood lords cost 300/250 and 4 supply. Corrupters aren't exactly free. Also fungal is not +30 to armored, it's +30%. So that's somewhere around 47 damage total. For someone who claims to be posting "useful information" your numbers are terribly off.
I have no idea about your seeker missile theory crafting. It's irrelevant anyway because ghosts absolutely can counter a broodlord/infestor heavy army if they have proper support. I've seen it happen several times in pro play and in my own games. Sixjaxmajor, tlo and bratok come to mind. I also watched Catz lose a game he was winning last weekend when his broodlord army evaporated to a group of ghosts. I have no idea why the idea hasn't migrated to the Korean scene. But just because Nada chose not to build them, and they don't seem effective according so an imaginary scenario in your head, doesn't mean they don't work.
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On June 17 2011 14:21 dde wrote:
no matter how fast i rapdily snipe infestors it always lives with 1 hp. Is it just me who cant 2 snipe shot infestor?
From what I recall, the hp regeneration timer on zerg units still counts down, but won't actually tick until the unit actually takes damage. So zerg units effectively take -1 damage on the first attack as long as they don't get one-shot.
So two snipes on an Infestor at full health do 44 + 45 damage no matter how fast you do them.
At least this is how it's been explained to me.
PS - Congrats on the Tactic3D tourney (just watched the finals this afternoon).
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On June 17 2011 13:16 drox22 wrote:
Guys, let's be honest here, even blizzard said that they are looking at this and might eventually have change the balance somehow. So it's not like terran players are just qqing and not looking for a solution. Even dde, arguably one of the best foreign terrans out there right now posted in here and shared the same concerns like anyone else. Please just don't call all the terrans who are posting their concerns in here balance whiners, even blizzard acknowledged that there might be a problem and they normally don't say alot when it comes down to balance.
ye only 6 terrans in last GSL quarter finals
to 1 zerg who lost there to a terran
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Morrow made Zerg look good tonight. But after seeing MMA dismantle Losira at Columbus I'll never say a word about Zerg imba vs T again 
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Wait. Are Terrans actually whining about heir race being UP? Really? Fucking REALLY?
The infestor is a great unit. But it doesn't make zerg unbalanced.
EDIT. I almost forgot to post Big Gratz to Mr. Morrow
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Screw top player concerns, do something if it's a problem in a year. It's not like Bisu ever stops whining about map balance or other crap, the best in the world complain or "WORRY" about stuff. Tough, it's their job to deal with it, and they do, and produce amazing games because of it.
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On June 17 2011 15:45 Koshi wrote:
Wait. Are Terrans actually whining about heir race being UP? Really? Fucking REALLY?
The infestor is a great unit. But it doesn't make zerg unbalanced.
EDIT. I almost forgot to post Big Gratz to Mr. Morrow
no.. were jus saying the baneling/infestor/broodlord combo is tough to deal with because of their extremely good synergy
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Morrow is sucha hero! Gonna be a zerg heavy final thats for sure!
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EPT
