|
On June 17 2011 13:14 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 13:02 tdt wrote:On June 17 2011 12:54 TheHova wrote:On June 17 2011 12:51 tdt wrote:On June 17 2011 12:38 tomatriedes wrote:
Oh yes poor terrans, their race is so UP, they can't even win a major tournament anymore. Oh, wait a minute I forgot about MLG and GSL. Everyone is talking late game here. Terran has to harass or make major mid game pushes or its over. Zerg has to harass the Protoss too. It's part of the game... Do drops, baneling bombs, nydus, small armys to spread them out etc... That's why Zergs are doing okay against Protoss now instead of getting steamrolled. They've learnt to add new things into their play. Terran need to learn now. MMA is perfectly capable of taking macro games off Zerg so it obviously can be done... Yeah true, but Terran supposed to be stronger than Zerg 200 vs 200 not the other way around which seems like it w/ brood/infestor/corruptor combo. That's the difference. According to blizzard 200 vs 200 P>T>Z so of course the weaker have to harass stronger. I would love to see where they were quoted saying that, especially considering that 200/200 could be 200 zerglings vs 200 in hellions. Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor is VERY high tech, VERY expensive, I feel like the terran equivalent would be equally strong Ghost/BC/Viking or similar, the trouble is getting there.
Another good point. People don't realize Broodlords are MORE expensive than Colossus in addition to taking far longer to tech to/produce. When was the last time a Terran was able to beat a Protoss who sat on an advantage the whole game and massed 10 Colossus+High Templar with Stalker support?
|
On June 17 2011 13:14 Dingobloo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 13:02 tdt wrote:On June 17 2011 12:54 TheHova wrote:On June 17 2011 12:51 tdt wrote:On June 17 2011 12:38 tomatriedes wrote:
Oh yes poor terrans, their race is so UP, they can't even win a major tournament anymore. Oh, wait a minute I forgot about MLG and GSL. Everyone is talking late game here. Terran has to harass or make major mid game pushes or its over. Zerg has to harass the Protoss too. It's part of the game... Do drops, baneling bombs, nydus, small armys to spread them out etc... That's why Zergs are doing okay against Protoss now instead of getting steamrolled. They've learnt to add new things into their play. Terran need to learn now. MMA is perfectly capable of taking macro games off Zerg so it obviously can be done... Yeah true, but Terran supposed to be stronger than Zerg 200 vs 200 not the other way around which seems like it w/ brood/infestor/corruptor combo. That's the difference. According to blizzard 200 vs 200 P>T>Z so of course the weaker have to harass stronger. I would love to see where they were quoted saying that, especially considering that 200/200 could be 200 zerglings vs 200 in hellions. Infestor/Broodlord/Corruptor is VERY high tech, VERY expensive, I feel like the terran equivalent would be equally strong Ghost/BC/Viking or similar, the trouble is getting there.
The difference is that you can spawn all your hight tech units from the same structure whereas BC viking ghost would require like 20 stargates and 10 barracks with tech labs.
edit: And you would just lose to mass lings then LOL
|
On June 17 2011 13:16 drox22 wrote:
Guys, let's be honest here, even blizzard said that they are looking at this and might eventually have change the balance somehow. So it's not like terran players are just qqing and not looking for a solution. Even dde, arguably one of the best foreign terrans out there right now posted in here and shared the same concerns like anyone else. Please just don't call all the terrans who are posting their concerns in here balance whiners, even blizzard acknowledged that there might be a problem and they normally don't say alot when it comes down to balance.
I don't think that is the point. I think the point is that everyone here should just stfu when it comes to balance whine. This is a LR thread.
When zerg were QQing, they also had a legitimate reason, the strategy they were going against was very difficult (and I can only imagine Blizzard was looking at the death ball as well) and just needed time. The same argument can be made here... but most importantly, insignificant posters (dde being the one exception here so far) should really stop their endless qq when they don't have a good enough understanding of the game.
Hell, not even the pros do as we saw with zerg. The metagame has to shift a bit and maybe things will work out.
TL;DR - This is a LR, so the main point is people just shouldn't be QQing here.
|
On June 17 2011 12:34 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:30 FairForever wrote:On June 17 2011 12:27 DoomsVille wrote:
I'm starting to feel like IdrA is being left behind in the metagame.
Morrow looks stronger than him in ZvP and ZvT. The only matchup that IdrA seems to have an advantage over him is in ZvZ.
A few months ago IdrA was stronger in all matchups. He's starting to be slip a fair bit. I'm starting to think Morrow is the best foreigner zerg. Not very fair to say that - I mean Idra missed out on NASL Finals in... a ZvZ. I think ZvZ is Morrow and IdrA's worst MUs. I'll say Idra is slightly better but they are both very good, along with Sen and Dimaga, in terms of foreign zergs. Good to see they'll all be at Dreamhack, hopefully we'll get some epic ZvZ matchups. I don't just base this on the NASL. IdrA looked much weaker against Mana than Morrow did against Socke. I think it's pretty clear than Morrow is the better ZvP player. And IdrA just hasn't looked strong against T for awhile now. He keeps saying he is very comfortable in the MU but loses a fair bit lately (MMA, Nada, dde... alot of big losses in ZvT). IdrA is definately better in ZvZ though. So it is close between them. But contrast that to maybe 3 months ago when IdrA was clearly the better player. At the very least Morrow has caught up to him.
Morrow's definitely made up a lot of ground, but I mean, you look at something like MLG and Idra just dominated. Morrow played very well too but you could argue he lost to Fenix at MLG, not like he was flawless.
IdrA and Morrow both suck (relatively) at ZvZ lol... it's no surprise that in EG Master's Cup a lot of the Ace matches pit up Zergs against Idra (eg. Lalush), it's definitely your best chance (or ZvP, but honestly Idra does fine in this matchup 90% of the time).
I'm not comfortable saying Dimaga Sen or Morrow is necessarily better overall yet - the good thing (once again) is that they're all at Dreamhack so we can kind of compare that way.
|
Honestly people should watch Morrow vs. Nerchio in the shoutcraft invitational finals.
Morrow very very effectively uses ghosts against BL/infestor/corruptor. That's is the future of TvZ that all terrans are going to have to learn to adapt to.
|
On June 17 2011 13:19 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:34 DoomsVille wrote:On June 17 2011 12:30 FairForever wrote:On June 17 2011 12:27 DoomsVille wrote:
I'm starting to feel like IdrA is being left behind in the metagame.
Morrow looks stronger than him in ZvP and ZvT. The only matchup that IdrA seems to have an advantage over him is in ZvZ.
A few months ago IdrA was stronger in all matchups. He's starting to be slip a fair bit. I'm starting to think Morrow is the best foreigner zerg. Not very fair to say that - I mean Idra missed out on NASL Finals in... a ZvZ. I think ZvZ is Morrow and IdrA's worst MUs. I'll say Idra is slightly better but they are both very good, along with Sen and Dimaga, in terms of foreign zergs. Good to see they'll all be at Dreamhack, hopefully we'll get some epic ZvZ matchups. I don't just base this on the NASL. IdrA looked much weaker against Mana than Morrow did against Socke. I think it's pretty clear than Morrow is the better ZvP player. And IdrA just hasn't looked strong against T for awhile now. He keeps saying he is very comfortable in the MU but loses a fair bit lately (MMA, Nada, dde... alot of big losses in ZvT). IdrA is definately better in ZvZ though. So it is close between them. But contrast that to maybe 3 months ago when IdrA was clearly the better player. At the very least Morrow has caught up to him. Morrow's definitely made up a lot of ground, but I mean, you look at something like MLG and Idra just dominated. Morrow played very well too but you could argue he lost to Fenix at MLG, not like he was flawless. IdrA and Morrow both suck (relatively) at ZvZ lol... it's no surprise that in EG Master's Cup a lot of the Ace matches pit up Zergs against Idra (eg. Lalush), it's definitely your best chance (or ZvP, but honestly Idra does fine in this matchup 90% of the time). I'm not comfortable saying Dimaga Sen or Morrow is necessarily better overall yet - the good thing (once again) is that they're all at Dreamhack so we can kind of compare that way.
Yea I do agree. I absolutely can't wait for dreamhack just so we can finally get a better idea of where everyone stands. It has been a very long time (ever?) since all of the very best foreign players have been at the same event.
|
On June 17 2011 13:21 DoomsVille wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 13:19 FairForever wrote:On June 17 2011 12:34 DoomsVille wrote:On June 17 2011 12:30 FairForever wrote:On June 17 2011 12:27 DoomsVille wrote:
I'm starting to feel like IdrA is being left behind in the metagame.
Morrow looks stronger than him in ZvP and ZvT. The only matchup that IdrA seems to have an advantage over him is in ZvZ.
A few months ago IdrA was stronger in all matchups. He's starting to be slip a fair bit. I'm starting to think Morrow is the best foreigner zerg. Not very fair to say that - I mean Idra missed out on NASL Finals in... a ZvZ. I think ZvZ is Morrow and IdrA's worst MUs. I'll say Idra is slightly better but they are both very good, along with Sen and Dimaga, in terms of foreign zergs. Good to see they'll all be at Dreamhack, hopefully we'll get some epic ZvZ matchups. I don't just base this on the NASL. IdrA looked much weaker against Mana than Morrow did against Socke. I think it's pretty clear than Morrow is the better ZvP player. And IdrA just hasn't looked strong against T for awhile now. He keeps saying he is very comfortable in the MU but loses a fair bit lately (MMA, Nada, dde... alot of big losses in ZvT). IdrA is definately better in ZvZ though. So it is close between them. But contrast that to maybe 3 months ago when IdrA was clearly the better player. At the very least Morrow has caught up to him. Morrow's definitely made up a lot of ground, but I mean, you look at something like MLG and Idra just dominated. Morrow played very well too but you could argue he lost to Fenix at MLG, not like he was flawless. IdrA and Morrow both suck (relatively) at ZvZ lol... it's no surprise that in EG Master's Cup a lot of the Ace matches pit up Zergs against Idra (eg. Lalush), it's definitely your best chance (or ZvP, but honestly Idra does fine in this matchup 90% of the time). I'm not comfortable saying Dimaga Sen or Morrow is necessarily better overall yet - the good thing (once again) is that they're all at Dreamhack so we can kind of compare that way. Yea I do agree. I absolutely can't wait for dreamhack just so we can finally get a better idea of where everyone stands. It has been a very long time (ever?) since all of the very best foreign players have been at the same event.
Well you're missing some damn good players (Select, Kiwikaki, etc.) but otherwise yeah, I'd say the Foreign Talent Pool is the best here at DH. Koreans on the other hand................ lol. Let's just say it leaves a lot to be desired. They had as good of a lineup as MLG Columbus but now it's just in shambles...
|
On June 17 2011 13:04 archonOOid wrote:
Blizzard (David Kim) is taking a look at the late game zerg with infestor/brood lords/corruptors and I think that it's warranted. Even with no infestors there are no real counter to the broodlords as the vikings has to fight the corruptors back and forth. David Kim since beta played the most Terran, and repeatedly claiming the game is balanced at times when it was clearly T-favored, so I wouldn't count on his view as the most objective, even though he's the leading Blizzard gamer consultant for balance.
Terran super-maxed late game is also very scary, if they build upgraded PFs, turrets and bunkers everywhere on the map. This slows down the advancement of zerg air, and gives enough time to (re)build vikings.
It's also ridiculous to fuel this discussion after games that were decided (outmacroed) well before the late game units came into play.
|
On June 17 2011 13:04 jmbthirteen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 13:02 tdt wrote:On June 17 2011 12:54 TheHova wrote:On June 17 2011 12:51 tdt wrote:On June 17 2011 12:38 tomatriedes wrote:
Oh yes poor terrans, their race is so UP, they can't even win a major tournament anymore. Oh, wait a minute I forgot about MLG and GSL. Everyone is talking late game here. Terran has to harass or make major mid game pushes or its over. Zerg has to harass the Protoss too. It's part of the game... Do drops, baneling bombs, nydus, small armys to spread them out etc... That's why Zergs are doing okay against Protoss now instead of getting steamrolled. They've learnt to add new things into their play. Terran need to learn now. MMA is perfectly capable of taking macro games off Zerg so it obviously can be done... Yeah true, but Terran supposed to be stronger than Zerg 200 vs 200 not the other way around which seems like it w/ brood/infestor/corruptor combo. That's the difference. According to blizzard 200 vs 200 P>T>Z so of course the weaker have to harass stronger. But is a 200/200 of tank/marine/viking supposed to be stronger than a 200/200 of BL/Infestor/Corrupter? I don't think so.
That's not the point. The point is Terran doesn't even HAVE a true strong late-game composition.
|
On June 17 2011 13:26 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 13:04 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 17 2011 13:02 tdt wrote:On June 17 2011 12:54 TheHova wrote:On June 17 2011 12:51 tdt wrote:On June 17 2011 12:38 tomatriedes wrote:
Oh yes poor terrans, their race is so UP, they can't even win a major tournament anymore. Oh, wait a minute I forgot about MLG and GSL. Everyone is talking late game here. Terran has to harass or make major mid game pushes or its over. Zerg has to harass the Protoss too. It's part of the game... Do drops, baneling bombs, nydus, small armys to spread them out etc... That's why Zergs are doing okay against Protoss now instead of getting steamrolled. They've learnt to add new things into their play. Terran need to learn now. MMA is perfectly capable of taking macro games off Zerg so it obviously can be done... Yeah true, but Terran supposed to be stronger than Zerg 200 vs 200 not the other way around which seems like it w/ brood/infestor/corruptor combo. That's the difference. According to blizzard 200 vs 200 P>T>Z so of course the weaker have to harass stronger. But is a 200/200 of tank/marine/viking supposed to be stronger than a 200/200 of BL/Infestor/Corrupter? I don't think so. That's not the point. The point is Terran doesn't even HAVE a true strong late-game composition.
that is just QQ what game are you playing.
give medivacs or stim to any other race
|
Maybe we T's have to exploit Brood's immobility with nuke pincer attacks. Fuck emp and snipe, all bout dat nuke!
Going to take this idea to the lab.
|
On June 17 2011 13:00 nvs. wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 12:49 jmbthirteen wrote:
Seriously fellow Terran players, get a grip. Remember when we told Zerg players to use infestors more when they were QQ'ing? Now as Terran struggles and they say build Ghosts, there is just QQ.. Come on now.
Ghosts are the answer. This for sure. People always love to give advice (T's telling Z to use infestor) but when it comes to their own play they see it's not as easy as it seems. Zergs had to put up with 6 months of Terrans telling them how to play. 
difference being that Infestors weren't that good before the buff. Ghosts on the otherhand, are POWERFUL.
|
On June 17 2011 13:33 Cryhavoc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 13:26 Scila wrote:On June 17 2011 13:04 jmbthirteen wrote:On June 17 2011 13:02 tdt wrote:On June 17 2011 12:54 TheHova wrote:On June 17 2011 12:51 tdt wrote:On June 17 2011 12:38 tomatriedes wrote:
Oh yes poor terrans, their race is so UP, they can't even win a major tournament anymore. Oh, wait a minute I forgot about MLG and GSL. Everyone is talking late game here. Terran has to harass or make major mid game pushes or its over. Zerg has to harass the Protoss too. It's part of the game... Do drops, baneling bombs, nydus, small armys to spread them out etc... That's why Zergs are doing okay against Protoss now instead of getting steamrolled. They've learnt to add new things into their play. Terran need to learn now. MMA is perfectly capable of taking macro games off Zerg so it obviously can be done... Yeah true, but Terran supposed to be stronger than Zerg 200 vs 200 not the other way around which seems like it w/ brood/infestor/corruptor combo. That's the difference. According to blizzard 200 vs 200 P>T>Z so of course the weaker have to harass stronger. But is a 200/200 of tank/marine/viking supposed to be stronger than a 200/200 of BL/Infestor/Corrupter? I don't think so. That's not the point. The point is Terran doesn't even HAVE a true strong late-game composition. that is just QQ what game are you playing. give medivacs or stim to any other race
No hes right. When fighting a zerg or protoss of equal skill, the terran will always lose late game. Terran has no good late game. We have to win mid game or cause so much damage in the early game it doesnt matter
|
On June 17 2011 13:24 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On June 17 2011 13:04 archonOOid wrote:
Blizzard (David Kim) is taking a look at the late game zerg with infestor/brood lords/corruptors and I think that it's warranted. Even with no infestors there are no real counter to the broodlords as the vikings has to fight the corruptors back and forth. David Kim since beta played the most Terran, and repeatedly claiming the game is balanced at times when it was clearly T-favored, so I wouldn't count on his view as the most objective, even though he's the leading Blizzard gamer consultant for balance. Terran super-maxed late game is also very scary, if they build upgraded PFs, turrets and bunkers everywhere on the map. This slows down the advancement of zerg air, and gives enough time to (re)build vikings. It's also ridiculous to fuel this discussion after games that were decided (outmacroed) well before the late game units came into play.
Bold font is sort of what people are getting at, terran MUST pressure zerg early game or they are way way behind. Nada tried with blue hellions and with marine drops but both were shut down.
|
Nada's style is already pretty outdated with the rate TvZ is evolving. It's not possible to go toe to toe in a macro game vs zerg and expect to win. Zerg simply has all the tools to do it better. MMA's style is by far the most efficient way to play vs zerg in a macro game, although it requires an absurd amount of apm to pull off.
Constant posturing with drops to distract zerg and get map position is the way to play. If you try to tug for map position against a zerg with an econ advantage, you'll just end up in engagements where you get rolled over like Nada did. Timings are also so crucial. At the very least, timings need to deny or delay the zerg third. A five/six gas zerg is ridiculously hard to deal with on two base, so the situation just spirals out of control from there.
|
On June 17 2011 13:39 BilltownRunner wrote:
Bold font is sort of what people are getting at, terran MUST pressure zerg early game or they are way way behind. Nada tried with blue hellions and with marine drops but both were shut down. Nada was way way behind, but that's because he couldn't harass well and prevent Morrow from over-expanding on these macro maps. I honestly think Nada had lag issues. Now, if Terrans claim that Zerg can normally expand 4-6 times and it's hard to prevent them from doing that... *and* the problem is somehow with Brood Lords and fungal... ?
It's not BLs and fungals that allowed Morrow to conquer the map, so check back your logic.
|
Even morrow thinks this particular composition is difficult for terrans
I feel zerg has an advantage simply because terran don't have quite the mobility required to deal with harass and counters. I also think broodlord/corruptor/infestor compositions are extremely strong against terran and terran don't have a great answer when you aquire a sizeable army of that particular composition.
|
i wonder when terran will start to use hunter seeker missile against Z... kills brood lord/corrupter
|
I'm going to state my opinion on this matter as a random player.
Maps are a HUGE factor. The bigger it is and the further away Zerg is from their opponent, the better (obviously depending on strategies, but lets look at this from a macro perspective).
Terran has to do economic damage/aggressive play, as mules can only support for so much. If you let a Zerg expand unchecked and think that as a Terran you should be able to expand as well and fight them equally late game you are mistaken.
The thing that makes it difficult for Terran players is the requirements of add-ons to produce certain units. It's not easy having 10 barracks with reactors and either waiting an additional 60-90 seconds (or how long it takes in game time) to build a new barracks and then get a tech lab addon, or simply lifting up and getting a tech lab addon (while managing other important aspects). This also cuts into your marine production rate. Ghosts are also mineral intensive, and typically you see Terran players floating more gas if anything later game.
It just feels like this when playing, the name of the game is Terran has to hurt the Zerg economy throughout the entire game or they will lose (this is taking into account GOOD players).
The way I see Nada vs Morrow is Nada tries to incorporate his Broodwar macro style of playing against Zerg, which relatively does not work.
|
On June 17 2011 13:57 quiet noise wrote:
i wonder when terran will start to use hunter seeker missile against Z... kills brood lord/corrupter
dont be silly. HSM can be dodged, costs 125 energy, and cant even kill BLs in 1 shot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
