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On June 16 2011 18:30 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 15:57 Dommk wrote:
I love it when ever IdrA losses people always feel compelled to make excuses for him.
When MC, MVP, MKP, NesTea, Losira, Naniwa, etc lose people can accept that they got outplayed.
But when IdrA losses, it is nothing but a coinflip, balance or some other bullshit that clearly has nothing to do with getting out played!
Seriously, stop making excuses for him, he got outplayed, give it a rest. You know, I never thought about this. When Polt beat Losira, the excuse was Losira played bad. When Rain (Rain!) beat Nestea, the excuse was he cheesed him. When Top did it in the SuperTourny, the excuse was cheese again. Very few people brought balance to those discussions. I guess some people raged about balance when MC dismantled July. But no one (credible) claimed imbalance when Thorzain took down MC. Also when Huk lost to Inca in the up/downs then group stages, no one blamed it on how coin-flippy PvP is, but on the fact that Inca is a PvP God. Last point, cuz I can't help myself. If ZvZ is so coinflippy, then why is TheWind winless on televised ZvZ =p (started from before he became a coach). Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 17:52 naventus wrote:On June 16 2011 17:44 cheesemaster wrote:
Ive turned from an idra fan, to anti idra in the past few months, i just cant stand his terrible attitude its hard to beleive hes only 2 years younger than me, he acts like hes 16 still. It's because he never went through the same socialization as everyone else at the same age. People at this age go through college, get a job, build relationships and learn a few more things about life. They learn more about their own weaknesses and strengths, and maybe figure out some ways to grow into better people. Idra has done none of this as a side effect of not going to college, of traveling to a place where he is surrounded by people that he can't even talk with, and of course playing/thinking about a game all the time. I think this is being unfair to high school graduates. It's not like professional tennis players (virtually all of whom skipped college and in some cases high school) rage and cuss each other out after each loss. Some people have different mental make-ups. I think it's as simple as that. Boxer didn't go to college either and their manner couldn't be more different. For some more comparisons: Idra is *3 years older* than Losira and just a year younger than MMA. He's also older than Naniwa, who's managed to turn his reputation around. Not to mention Tyler had a pretty hot-headed reputation in BW and look how far removed from it he is (granted Tyler is a bit older than Idra, so they could just be at different points in their life).
Well said.
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I don't want to spoil myself so am posting from the 1st page, is there going to be an EU viewing? I don't see it in the calender o_o. pm plz <3
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SotG pillars are really falling of their pedestal after this loss. As a Starcraft history bob I always looked up to them as the Masters of SCII.
IdrA not making the top 16. Even though he told everybody NASL (and other "easy" money tournaments) was the reason he came back to NA for.
Incontrol not making the Play-offs but doing ok-ish in MLG.
Tyler not making anything.
It shatters my mind.
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On June 16 2011 17:55 Primadog wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 17:50 captainwaffles wrote:
I don't have the HD pass for NASL and I couldn't make out what Idra said in the beginning. What did Idra say in game 2? Zenio: Where's the gg idra: Earn it.
And Zenio did "earn" a GG in game 2 (just like he already earned it in game 1 but whatever), and yet IdrA still left without giving a GG. How surprising.
On June 16 2011 18:46 Koshi wrote:
SotG pillars are really falling of their pedestal after this loss. As a Starcraft history bob I always looked up to them as the Masters of SCII.
IdrA not making the top 16. Even though he told everybody NASL (and other "easy" money tournaments) was the reason he came back to NA for.
Incontrol not making the Play-offs but doing ok-ish in MLG.
Tyler not making anything.
It shatters my mind.
I wonder why you see them not making the finals as really surprising. The only players from the NA ladder currently in the top 16 of NASL are Select (and he is actually from South Korea as well so -_-) & Sheth. All others are European or Korean. Even though there are still 5 spots open, it is highly unlikely a US player will take any of those. The only real hope is KiWiKaKi beating MC in bracket 5 I suppose, although he is of course Canadian  That, and the open bracket has a ton of US players, but also powerhouses like ThorZain and DIMAGA so I would put my money on a EU winner for the open tournament as well.
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 16 2011 12:22 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Look, as a master zerg player I think it's really really easy to see how Idra lost.
First game, big map, so ofc Idra goes 15h because he's a greedy macro player. Zenio guesses correctly and simply does a 9p and rapes it. 15h > 14e14p > 9p > 15h is the basic ZvZ dynamic.
Second game, Idra just got 9p so he's scared to go 15h again, so ofc he goes 14e14p which is middle of the road build. Zenio does the same because he's confident he's a better player than Idra. You see how that works? He doesn't go greedy econ build because he thinks he's better. He goes the SAME middle of the road.
Then, Idra diverges into 21/22h roach/ling timing attack. Zenio, with his earlier banes, intelligently identifies what Idra is going for and drops 2 spines and uses banes/lings to ward Idra off long enough to get enough larvae to wipe out the timing attack. Idra was already WAY behind after doing this timing attack! He caught up in drones sure, but Zenio had the same drone count for 2 minutes longer AND got 2 spines out of it AND got baneling nest along with roach tech and got +1 range attack. Quite simply, Idra's timing attack failed.
Then, when things diverged AGAIN, Zenio stayed light on roaches, opting to use more lings and a few banes to conserve gas, and was on 3 gas long before Idra was. So he got way ahead in gas both because less roaches and more gas mining. THEN he dropped a spire and tech switched to muta.
This was not luck. This was not a coinflip. This was not an unavoidable loss. Idra could have easily sent an overseer to scout. Idra easily could have built some speedlings to make a more aggressive attempt to scout Zenio's army composition rather than just relying on roach pokes to see the tip of Zenio's units. Idra had all day to figure out what was going on.
Instead, Idra threw up a third and tried to drone it up and went for the absolutely typical roach/infestor composition.
So basically, Game 2 Zenio had brilliant brilliant counter builds to Idra's 21h roach/ling timing attack, then a brilliant timing attack of his own to hit Idra in the TINY TINY window that a straight up roach mass 3 base infestor build is vulnerable to.
And Idra repeatedly telegraphed what HE had by sending ALL his roaches in his scouting pokes. Thereby giving his opponent more info than he gained with HIS scouting attempts. The epitome of stupid.
Thanks for posting this, seems like a good neutral analysis and game summary (which seems rare after the slog through the other posts in this thread I had to read to find it whilst looking for some LR posts) but also an excellent write up of the game for those who haven't seen and probably won't bother watching it like me.
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
Looks like Zenio had IdrA's number. Congrats for making it to the finals!
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When does the European restream starts? Couldn't find it in the calendar.
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I'm sad Zenio doesn't do so well in the GSL and stuff. I wonder if other people are just better or if he's been unlucky... I also wonder how Idra would do if he went back into code S
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Zenio coin-flipped, but he coin-flipped with a biased coin - he won the mind games - he predicted what Idra would do, and Idra fell into these predictions.
Against anyone else, the specific coin-flips Zenio did may not have paid off, but against Idra, who Zenio has played and studied, it did.
First game, he 10 pooled on a macro map, knowing that Idra would not be able to resist 15 hatching to maximize his economy (because if there's one thing Idra fears, it's being behind on economy). Yet, even with this prediction, it was a coin-flip because Zenio had to count on scouting Idra in a timely manner. He did, and Idra lost.
Second game, they both opened "safe," and then transitioned into their techs of choice. Zenio went for ling baneling aggression, but could not do damage because Idra went the defensive counter - roaches. Idra then attacked Zenio's natural with a roach-ling timing but failed to break him because Zenio had good simcity with his spines. At this point, they were fairly even. Then Zenio coin-flipped mutas. Had Idra put down a hydra den and made a few hydras, or scouted with a speed overlord or overseer and put down some spores, Zenio would've been dead. But Zenio predicted that Idra was afraid of falling behind on roach numbers after losing a bunch during the "all-in" attack, predicted that Idra had a habit of not scouting in ZvZ and relying on standard play, and so his muta switch paid off. Idra lost.
There are two conclusions to be drawn from these games, and it's not about ZvZ. It's about Idra's play style.
It is very easy to mind game Idra because he is predictable, and he is predictable in a very specific way - he is generally not willing to coin-flip. Except for the one game against Sen, where Idra played out of his style and took Sen completely by surprise with a ling spine-crawler cheese, Idra has just about always opened defensive, "safe" builds.
Idra doesn't like to take chances, and because he doesn't like to take chances, he is often vulnerable to builds that DO take chances. What Idra does not seem to understand, or understands but refuses to change his play-style accordingly, is that while you can't win consistently with a coin-flip build against random opponents, you CAN win consistently with a coin-flip build against specific opponents (ie Idra), because no one really plays "randomly."
Consider the first game. If Idra opened 14 pool, he would've been at an advantage. But does anyone really think that Idra is going to open 14 pool 50% of the times on Terminus, and 15 hatch the other 50% of the times? Or how about the second game - was Idra going to hydra switch 50% of the times, and build drones and roaches the other 50% of the times? No, because Idra, especially, does not like coin-flipping. He has a set of responses that he considers the "best" responses to each situation and uses them. These responses, when known by the opponent, or even when not known by the opponent, can easily be used to meta-game Idra into a loss.
Mind games are a part of SC 2, and in the hands of successful players, they make "coin flips" into "calculated risks" that result, more often than not, in wins. Unfortunately, Idra has always been weak at them. That's partly why he loses more than he should and to players with worse mechanics - because they out-mind game him. Idra does not really understand, I feel, how to mind game, or perhaps it is more insightful to say that Idra's mentality towards the game does not allow him to mind game effectively.
That Idra hates playing from a position of disadvantage makes it hard for him to pull off any successful coin-flips, because whereas a player like Zenio is fine with failing a 10 pool and then playing to get back in the game (a process that usually involves doing more coin-flips), Idra is not. This is what separates Idra from many other players - the fact that he is unwilling to coin flip because he does not or cannot play from a position of disadvantage. This is, in fact, a weakness in his game no matter what Idra tries to excuse it as, because it limits his versatility as a player, and makes him predictable.
I don't know if Idra will ever get over this limitation as a player, but until he does, he's probably going to keep losing in this fashion.
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On June 16 2011 18:51 dani` wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 18:46 Koshi wrote:
SotG pillars are really falling of their pedestal after this loss. As a Starcraft history bob I always looked up to them as the Masters of SCII.
IdrA not making the top 16. Even though he told everybody NASL (and other "easy" money tournaments) was the reason he came back to NA for.
Incontrol not making the Play-offs but doing ok-ish in MLG.
Tyler not making anything.
It shatters my mind.
I wonder why you see them not making the finals as really surprising. The only players from the NA ladder currently in the top 16 of NASL are Select (and he is actually from South Korea as well so -_-) & Sheth. All others are European or Korean. Even though there are still 5 spots open, it is highly unlikely a US player will take any of those. The only real hope is KiWiKaKi beating MC in bracket 5 I suppose, although he is of course Canadian That, and the open bracket has a ton of US players, but also powerhouses like ThorZain and DIMAGA so I would put my money on a EU winner for the open tournament as well.
Like I said. I have no BW background and listening to them made me put them high in the sky. I hope they:
1) bring back SOTG
2) get some real results!
EDIT: @Azarkon. Well said. Can't agree more.
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Can't watch Idra vs Zenio because vods arent uploaded yet.
People who dont pay can watch live stream for free, but for those who pay have to wait like 3 days before vods are uploaded. Seems very fair to me -__- (I can't watch live because of work).
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daaaaaamn Idra not making the Top 16 finals is a pretty huge surprise.
Well, I guess there's always next season for him.
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are these getting EU restream?
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On June 16 2011 20:48 Bobster wrote:
daaaaaamn Idra not making the Top 16 finals is a pretty huge surprise.
.
Not really, Zenio is comfortably better.
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One thing is funny, NASL choose all the koreans based on skill (but low skill) but they're still here :
- rainbow and ensnare : picked because they were bad (worst players of all terran candidates)
- nada and boxer : picked because of their popularity and their average sc2 skills, perfect candidates (but since that time Nada has became really good and Boxer is good enough to cruise his way in the group of death). Can still be considered legit invites.
- zenio : was considered bad at the time they took him. "Sadly", he's now very good.
- moon and july : like nada and boxer, picked because of their star power combined with being bad players. Too bad July is now a beast and Moon own white dudes.
- squirtle and ace : average protoss but still legit picks at the time of invites.
- MC : legit pick too + star power.
So, of 10 Koreans, 7 were picked because they were bad enough (at that time) to not pwn everyone while still bringing a lot of viewers.
(when I say someone is "bad" it's relative to average korean skill or how they were considered at the time they were picked, except the first 2).
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Godamnit.. NASL just became really boring to watch
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Since we discuss Idra, just think of Nestea in comparison.
Sometimes it seems to me those two are pretty much the opposites from each other. Whereas Idra allways believes to be the better player, Nestea says "he is not good at the game and still has to learn". One could say, Idra thinks of himself as a master, Nestea thinks of himself as a student.
Idra rarely ggs and often disrespects opponnents for no apparant reason, Nestea never leaves without gg and never talks bad about his opponents.
When Idra is behind, he leaves.
When Nestea is behind he will do anything that's possible, he will walk on water if necessary, he takes risks and he makes perfect decisions. Against sC, Idra would have left. Nestea didnt and won miraculously, against TOP on Crossfire, just the same. Against choya on Scrap Station, the same. And that is where Champions are born. Nobody cares how immensly Nestea owned Inca in the finals, but everyone cares about how he made an impossible comeback to get where he was.
Idra will never do so.
It's almost like hero and antihero.
In a perfect world, people would not talk about Idra but worship Nestea, the noble zerggod, even more.
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On June 16 2011 20:58 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 20:48 Bobster wrote:
daaaaaamn Idra not making the Top 16 finals is a pretty huge surprise.
. Not really, Zenio is comfortably better. I meant from before the tournament started.
With a 50 player field, everyone expected Idra to easily make the Top 16.
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On June 16 2011 21:06 MrCon wrote:
One thing is funny, NASL choose all the koreans based on skill (but low skill) but they're still here :
- rainbow and ensnare : picked because they were bad (worst players of all terran candidates)
- nada and boxer : picked because of their popularity and their average sc2 skills, perfect candidates (but since that time Nada has became really good and Boxer is good enough to cruise his way in the group of death). Can still be considered legit invites.
- zenio : was considered bad at the time they took him. "Sadly", he's now very good.
- moon and july : like nada and boxer, picked because of their star power combined with being bad players. Too bad July is now a beast and Moon own white dudes.
- squirtle and ace : average protoss but still legit picks at the time of invites.
- MC : legit pick too + star power.
So, of 10 Koreans, 7 were picked because they were bad enough (at that time) to not pwn everyone while still bringing a lot of viewers.
(when I say someone is "bad" it's relative to average korean skill or how they were considered at the time they were picked, except the first 2).
You can't say nada is average since he is the most consistent player in gsl. July wasn't consider a bad player when they pick him. If you look at it squirtle and ace did the worst in gsl but were picked because of IEM exposure. They obvious pick the korean players all based on their popularity.
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EPT
