|
On June 03 2011 12:58 Wuster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 12:46 Stratos_speAr wrote:It's an interesting observation, in a way. Protoss isn't helpless (definitely no imbalance or anything), but there's definitely been a growing trend of Protoss just getting rolled recently. Actually, I'd say it's more of a trend of Zerg just absolutely demolishing everyone recently. It reminds me of when the Roach got buffed to range 4 and every Zerg all of a sudden started busting Protoss fast expand. Granted that was an actually balance change that triggererd that (They also started owning Terran by shutting down early harass with that change too). But somehow, Protoss started fast expanding again and now Zerg is just busting it with mass roach / ling again. So to me, it's just another turn in the cycle. That's an oversimplification, but roaches killing Protoss on 2 base before they can power seems to be what most people are shocked by these days (in today's case while Protoss starts to add on T3 was the timing window July used).
Zergs are just getting better. Toss got too relient on 3 gate sentry expand and those 3 base mass void ray colossus build. When zerg discovered attack timings to punishes 3 gate sentry expand and now knows how to counter laser toss(morrow style or basically any infestor based play), toss is in trouble. Zerg usually had the stronger mid game with roach+hydra+ling very cost effective versus gateway. Now late game isn't that pretty and early game is dangerous it is just reversed of what zergs felt 2-3 month ago. We just need MC to figure out new timing attacks for us to threaten zergs again. It is just the game. One build get strong, people countered it. People who still try to use that build and lose then QQ imbalance. This is litterally no different from when zergs were like why can't my roach hydra corruptors beat void ray colossus based toss army.
|
On June 03 2011 12:46 Stratos_speAr wrote:That's an oversimplification, but roaches killing Protoss on 2 base before they can power seems to be what most people are shocked by these days (in today's case while Protoss starts to add on T3 was the timing window July used).
are you kidding me? this was spoken of back when 1.1.2 had come out, zergs were just not as efficient as they are now.
|
On June 03 2011 13:04 iNcontroL wrote:Guys I used chrono as much as I could. I'm actually good about it  I shouldn't have attacked up the ramp game 3 and I needed to remake sentry. I lost that game... Shoulda won
<3 !!~ You played him as closely as anyone in the league has... no shame in that!
|
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/sVRYC.jpg)
Made this for the epic match 
|
July's timing on Crevasse and Metal, where he went for a hydra heavy composition transitioning into corruptor/roach was verrrrrry cool to see. I always sort of approached that style as roach -> hydra -> corruptor, but I suppose if you're going to hit before too collosi (or range) are out, you can afford to go for hydras, you just have to be aggressive with them (which seems counter-intuitive for such a freakin slow unit.
|
On June 03 2011 13:13 MMello wrote:Made this for the epic match
lol is incontrol about to eat July or just angry he actually thought he could play a macro game head to head with him?
|
Whitera is pretty much guaranteed Ro16 spot too right? Since Sjow lost?
|
I really liked Xeris' casting in terms of what he said. Though at times he did look incredibly nervous in front of the camera.
Though given that was your first time, MAJOR props. I hope you cast again.
|
Hahah wow man, 0 liquibet wins tonight jesus
|
It seems like July is a player where you really have to consider all his results to see why he's rated so high. You look at one game where he wins with a baneling bust and it doesn't look special (neither did a lot of simple 4gates though).
But for him to win so consistently and place high in so many events means either his micro and attacks are much more precise (builds exactly the right number of blings to blow up the specific building he's targetting, positions and micros his attack perfectly) than other Zerg, and/or his game sense is much better of when in a series or game to do such attacks. He doesn't always do a strong early attack either, he just flat outmacroed Incontrol in one or two of those games.
If what July does is so easy, a lot of other Zerg would do the same and there would be several others getting similar results to July, but there aren't.
It seems like his game sense of when he's started to break his enemy and switches over completely to unit production and attack ("kill switch"), no more drones or expos, is better than almost any other player. It doesn't always work out for him when he does this, but it does with a very high percentage to give him his great results.
He's like some chess player where you feel like the game is completely standard, and suddenly 4 moves later your castle is torn open and your king is running around in the middle of the board in his underwear.
|
On June 03 2011 12:50 backtoback wrote:
how is QXC losing every bo3? what does he need to change in his gameplay in order to succeed?
He needs practice, hes been way too busy doing other stuff by the sound of his Twitter
|
On June 03 2011 13:26 skrzmark wrote:
Whitera is pretty much guaranteed Ro16 spot too right? Since Sjow lost?
In a 3-way tie with Sjow and Darkforce.
|
On June 03 2011 13:52 Taryssa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 12:50 backtoback wrote:
how is QXC losing every bo3? what does he need to change in his gameplay in order to succeed? He needs practice, hes been way too busy doing other stuff by the sound of his Twitter
I don't think he has been taking this tournament seriously since he lost the first few rounds when he was playing from a laggy net cafe in Spain. He has had good results recently like beating SeleCT in the final of SK gaming champions trophy thing.
|
Pretty much Darkforce can't catch Whitera unless he loses... Whitera needs to win 2-0 and he's guaranteed in the 16.
|
Rooting for incontrol all the way! Can't wait for finals, so glad I go to college near Ontario!!! :D
|
On June 03 2011 13:07 kyarisan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 12:46 Wuster wrote:That's an oversimplification, but roaches killing Protoss on 2 base before they can power seems to be what most people are shocked by these days (in today's case while Protoss starts to add on T3 was the timing window July used). are you kidding me? this was spoken of back when 1.1.2 had come out, zergs were just not as efficient as they are now.
That was sort of my point (you got the quote wrong btw).
When 1.1.2 dropped mass Roach killed Protoss before they could tech up or expand.
Then the next few months they figured out a way to do it with MC winning two GSL's, Naniwa as MLG, ect and everyone started yelling Protoss OP.
Now all of a sudden, Zerg has learned a timing to kill the adjustments Protoss made to tech up / expand again.
It's just how it goes, the matchup is still evolving and will probably go back and forth like this for a while.
|
well, the thing is i'm saying that there were many people who said that the roach range change from 3 to 4 completely broke the matchup because roaches were too strong, they just never got the chance to really fight gateway armies because their range was so pitiful before. most of the players in NA, europe etc are more politically correct in general so they dont voice their thoughts on imbalances if they have them, but a number of the highly ranked korean players were saying it. obviously the metagame was very underdeveloped at that time compared to now, but the fact that people were bringing it up even then should have been a sign of things to come.
but now that zergs have finally stopped dying to 4-gate, have figured out a few nice timing rushes to punish any non forge expand build that isnt done with a high level of precaution (roach ling all-in), and are finding new unit compositions/tactics (baneling drops+fungal), its becoming more prominent. there have been many "mass roach problems" threads in the past, but not by the world class players, you didn't see it in tournaments that much.
i agree that the matchup could easily sway away from mass roach being an incredible pain to deal with though. the current perspective is just that roaches are slightly weaker stalkers that cost half as much. as long as zerg production exceeds protoss production (which it does in the mid-game), they will basically be able to double the stalker ball in number, and they benefit from being aggressive and trading armies at this stage.
that said, i think protoss can do a lot off of 2-base, roaches don't ridiculously outnumber stalkers before the 14 or so minute mark to an extent that protoss can't force something to happen (they just have a hard time securing a third without cutting into the production) - whereas zerg will actually benefit in production from laying down a hatchery due to larva.
|
On June 03 2011 13:04 xbankx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 12:58 Wuster wrote:On June 03 2011 12:46 Stratos_speAr wrote:It's an interesting observation, in a way. Protoss isn't helpless (definitely no imbalance or anything), but there's definitely been a growing trend of Protoss just getting rolled recently. Actually, I'd say it's more of a trend of Zerg just absolutely demolishing everyone recently. It reminds me of when the Roach got buffed to range 4 and every Zerg all of a sudden started busting Protoss fast expand. Granted that was an actually balance change that triggererd that (They also started owning Terran by shutting down early harass with that change too). But somehow, Protoss started fast expanding again and now Zerg is just busting it with mass roach / ling again. So to me, it's just another turn in the cycle. That's an oversimplification, but roaches killing Protoss on 2 base before they can power seems to be what most people are shocked by these days (in today's case while Protoss starts to add on T3 was the timing window July used). Zergs are just getting better. Toss got too relient on 3 gate sentry expand and those 3 base mass void ray colossus build. When zerg discovered attack timings to punishes 3 gate sentry expand and now knows how to counter laser toss(morrow style or basically any infestor based play), toss is in trouble. Zerg usually had the stronger mid game with roach+hydra+ling very cost effective versus gateway. Now late game isn't that pretty and early game is dangerous it is just reversed of what zergs felt 2-3 month ago. We just need MC to figure out new timing attacks for us to threaten zergs again. It is just the game. One build get strong, people countered it. People who still try to use that build and lose then QQ imbalance. This is litterally no different from when zergs were like why can't my roach hydra corruptors beat void ray colossus based toss army.
Yeah it took a while for zerg to stop saying that any attack by part of zerg before 200/200 was all in. So many zergs abused the L8 game that when toss found out mass collosi Voidray was pretty much unbeatable zergs fell down and cried op. Things now seem to bend in Zergs favor as i've seen. That is only the zerg that have discovered Roach ling timings.
|
It's sad that is has to come to this point, watching amaizing zerg players having to pretty much all-in in some way or other the protoss player before they get the most broken unit in the game (colossus).
Basically the only time zerg players win is when protoss players play ridiculously greedy or plain a simply bad like in these series today, but if the protoss plays safe then zerg simply loses straigh up, because guess what happens if you don't kill a protoss player in the first 15 minutes of the game? Colossus based protoss armies roll over 200 zerg supply while losing 15-20 supply themselves, IF that.
I wonder how much longer will it take until they balance this out so I don't have to watch a Starcraft Legend like July having to all-in against a very average american Protoss player that doesn't even play full-time. Or even worst, watching IdrA losing to cruncher.
User was warned for this post
|
July has always been a cheesy/all-in player, even in brood war, just happens he can also macro when he has to. Your post feels like something I would have read 2 months ago, it's just silly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
