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Further balance whining will result in severe bans. Time stamp 21:09 KST. |
Since when is MKP beating Squirtle indicative of balance? MKP is really good and squirtle has been underwhelming since he beat MVP in the GSTL
+ Show Spoiler +On May 26 2011 23:08 NExt wrote:ok you PM me? lol i'll bite. note: imo day9 speaks to platinum and lower note: starcraft 2 is not one dimensional. you talk like it is - it hurts the validity of ur posts. note: its not THAT easy to see what a terran is doing. They are highly versatile and simply checking the ramp is not enough. Now that video, yeah makes sense that poke the front it happens all the time. No argument there. But check this out: -LiquidTLO did a 1 rax CC. He did not have many units, he was greedy enough not to have a bunker. (that first push wouldve been shut down if he had furthermore [being so early in the game he wouldn't have seen enough]) . But above all, totally different scenario 1 rax CC doesn't compare to anything in terms of early game and early game pressure. So what we've been talking about is scouting to see Ghosts ( just in case you forgot ). When did he take his gas? When did he take his second gas? How many rax did he build? How many marauders / marines did he make? -Marine comes out around 3 game minutes or so.. give or take.. Your probe dies 1 game minute later. Scouting halted for now. You say early pressure. -What if, there are 2 marauders and a marine on the map or already at your front? [can't poke at this amazing 6 minute timing must play on] -Tell on what he's done? [not really, must play on] -You finish warp gates, you try this pressure. You move up the ramp.. Bunker.. can't bust, reasonable number of marauders and marines, not enough to tell mass marauder production but not small enough to say hey, he isn't spending gas on anything else. But.. regardless we must retreat losing a few units to concussive shell but not too game deciding. -You saw a respectable amount of units though, so make a few more gateway units and slow down the tech a little to make sure you don't just straight up die. But Ghosts are > gateway units, damn.. note: still have no idea whether is 3rax all in. 2 rax expand pressure. both of which can involve ghosts. or anything else. note: its been discussed that the best answer to Ghosts are Colossus, which are not a reaction move, as they take awhile to build. even if see Ghosts at his natural if u havent blindly gone Colossus. Observers?? might be already too late. note: notice how complicated it becomes necause the game is not one dimensional poking his ramp doesn't solve the problem you're basing ALOT of your argument over a day9 daily where the Terran went for an intense macro build, what if he didnt go 1rax CC do you know timings then? MKP when for a macro build but made ghosts before he made medivacs. Would you have you known he was going for quick ghosts? Lets cover all bases. You logically get observer 7minute mark+ (depending of what u've done) a strong standard push comes around 10 minutes. Observer gets to opponents base at 8 minutes, you see ghosts. You have 2minutes to react. ok. tl:dr - this game is not one dimensional, you're basing ALOT of your argument over a day9 daily where the Terran went for a macro build, totally changes the dynamic of early pressure from Protoss 1.3k masters protoss. gl hf. RUN AT ME BRUH
Lol the problem with balance discussions, everyone will just support their own race on a whim.
On May 26 2011 22:18 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 22:10 Inflicted_ wrote:On May 26 2011 22:07 Olinim wrote:
The problem is that toss can't make static defense without throwing up a forge, and it isn't part of your normal build order. See a push coming? Throw up some bunkers or some crawlers, as toss? Just gotta hope. Sentry, which warps in faster and can be used offensively. Sentry, which is negated by a single emp.
Put your stalkers in front of your army and spread out your sentries if it bothers you that much
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On May 26 2011 23:20 zerious wrote:
That Ensnare vs Revival game... oh god...
yeah makes me sad Tastosis wasn't on tonight, they would have been brutal.
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Ok so i stopped raging :D I hate the thing that FD Lost, in the last game i don't think that he needed to go for that base trade... But he could still win that after that. HE had a ton of resources, for about 20 Hydras, but he didn't have the hydra den which costed him the game. Ace used his stalkers very effectively through
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On May 26 2011 22:58 kheldorin wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 22:55 Medrea wrote:On May 26 2011 22:49 Vimsey wrote:On May 26 2011 21:52 MrCon wrote:On May 26 2011 21:46 NExt wrote:On May 26 2011 21:44 Medrea wrote:On May 26 2011 21:42 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On May 26 2011 21:38 Onieh wrote:On May 26 2011 21:36 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On May 26 2011 21:35 Medrea wrote:
[quote]
Nonstop colo production usually stops it no im serious, u cant get colo out in time for the 1st attack First attack was at like 10min or so? Not entirely sure about the time. You can have a few colossi by then for sure + enough gateway to hold off that attack. assuming i see it coming, i feel like i should try to snipe the ghosts with stalkers, even if i have to sac them, cause terran has less rines/rauders because of the ghosts, thats all i can think of You can see it coming a mile away if you scout the front. a mile away if u scout the front?? scout that their out and just need to walk across the map or see the general mmm? im not trolling i'd love to know more mid game tells for T. their so versatile I think it's just very hard to scout, as the T has concussive when the ghosts are out so you can't poke that easily. Perhaps if you're very refined you can count the number of units and see something is wrong (2 ghosts are still 4 marauders or 8 marines, that's a big difference in army size), but you have to train a lot against that particular build, know exactly at what time to look and what should be the enemy composition, not easy. I think there was a similar push to this that carmac died to and rotterdam on ESL university monday cast explained in detail what he could do to scout even though its hard to poke and then how to deal with the units once they get to your base so may be worth watching for those learning. Yeah the people saying sentries are useless against an early ghost play are also not entirely correct since generally bases have high ground so a sentry should get at least one force field which is sometimes all you need. Also someone said keep the sentry far back which is also somewhat helpful on maps like Taldarim. StaLife did this build against MC on Shattered Temple. MC did check the ramp. In fact he, FFed the ramp till roughly the time he thinks Stalife would get medivacs out. Stalife did a good job of hiding his army. MC then retreated to his expansion and got rolled completely afterwards. His response was a 4-gate in the 2nd game and then a void ray in the 3rd. But those responses are not based on scouting but on the previous matches. That wasnt really the same that was MC doing an agressive contain i dont even think he went robo which got dealt with by medivacs and clever play unless im thinking of a different game.
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note: imo day9 speaks to platinum and lower
This makes me slap my forehead a bit. The man has like what 12 years of RTS experience with a good 4 of that on the professional level? You don't even need game specific knowledge to know that scouting the front is as standard as standard gets. Im like positive that every RTS ever made has scouting the front as one of its staples.
note: starcraft 2 is not one dimensional. you talk like it is - it hurts the validity of ur posts.
note: its not THAT easy to see what a terran is doing. They are highly versatile and simply checking the ramp is not enough.
Never said it was, but expect to pay the same resources as zerg or terran in the same situation.
Now that video, yeah makes sense that poke the front it happens all the time. No argument there. But check this out:
-LiquidTLO did a 1 rax CC. He did not have many units, he was greedy enough not to have a bunker. (that first push wouldve been shut down if he had furthermore [being so early in the game he wouldn't have seen enough]) . But above all, totally different scenario 1 rax CC doesn't compare to anything in terms of early game and early game pressure.
How does it not? Of course its a different scenario, thats what scouting is for!
So what we've been talking about is scouting to see Ghosts ( just in case you forgot ).
When did he take his gas? When did he take his second gas? How many rax did he build? How many marauders / marines did he make?
Thats what we are talking about yes. Thats what scouting the front can almost exactly tell you if you can count units.
-Marine comes out around 3 game minutes or so.. give or take.. Your probe dies 1 game minute later. Scouting halted for now. You say early pressure.
-What if, there are 2 marauders and a marine on the map or already at your front? [can't poke at this amazing 6 minute timing must play on]
-Tell on what he's done? [not really, must play on]
-You finish warp gates, you try this pressure. You move up the ramp.. Bunker.. can't bust, reasonable number of marauders and marines, not enough to tell mass marauder production but not small enough to say hey, he isn't spending gas on anything else. But.. regardless we must retreat losing a few units to concussive shell but not too game deciding.
-You saw a respectable amount of units though, so make a few more gateway units and slow down the tech a little to make sure you don't just straight up die. But Ghosts are > gateway units, damn.. If there is 2 marauders and marine ultra early then he has only started his Ghost recently and until then those 3 units are pretty much what he has for awhile since he had to cut SOMETHING to get ghost tech anyway. Losing a few units is overcommital. At masters level, which you say you are, you shouldn't lose a whole lot unless you literally walk up the ramp into the bunker and start wailing at it with no idea whats up there. And yeah i mean Ghosts..... should be..... pretty good against gateway units. Thats why your able to stop them or do damage before they come out if they come out too quickly.
note: still have no idea whether is 3rax all in. 2 rax expand pressure. both of which can involve ghosts. or anything else.
Scouting the front can help you check things off, narrowing terrans options down a bit. The response to a 3 rax all in with ghosts and a 2 rax ghost expand is not completely different.
note: its been discussed that the best answer to Ghosts are Colossus, which are not a reaction move, as they take awhile to build. even if see Ghosts at his natural if u havent blindly gone Colossus. Observers?? might be already too late. Thats more mid game ghost usage, there are options there to explore as well but if he is already chilling at his natural then you shouldnt be on 3 gates anyway. Different conversation basically.
note: notice how complicated it becomes necause the game is not one dimensional poking his ramp doesn't solve the problem you're basing ALOT of your argument over a day9 daily where the Terran went for an intense macro build, what if he didnt go 1rax CC do you know timings then?
An overly greedy economy or tech build is pretty much what 3 gate is designed to kill or definitly scout. At masters level, we should all have some basic timings down for each of the more popular terran builds. If he is massing units for a great early attack, it will be quite obvious.
MKP when for a macro build but made ghosts before he made medivacs. Would you have you known he was going for quick ghosts?
Definitly not while getting Dark templars and a robotics AND expanding
Good points though. 2 marauder marine at your face can be scary, improper amount of units enforcing can give it away.
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Also I might not recall that MC game but if I recall MC sat in front of the main for quite a long time, to the point where Terran got medivacs out right? Sometimes I see pro protoss players and I wonder how they can contain terran for so long and get away with it without getting dropped in there own main. But then again, I am not pro am I?
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On May 26 2011 23:31 Vimsey wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2011 22:58 kheldorin wrote:On May 26 2011 22:55 Medrea wrote:On May 26 2011 22:49 Vimsey wrote:On May 26 2011 21:52 MrCon wrote:On May 26 2011 21:46 NExt wrote:On May 26 2011 21:44 Medrea wrote:On May 26 2011 21:42 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On May 26 2011 21:38 Onieh wrote:On May 26 2011 21:36 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
[quote]
no im serious, u cant get colo out in time for the 1st attack First attack was at like 10min or so? Not entirely sure about the time. You can have a few colossi by then for sure + enough gateway to hold off that attack. assuming i see it coming, i feel like i should try to snipe the ghosts with stalkers, even if i have to sac them, cause terran has less rines/rauders because of the ghosts, thats all i can think of You can see it coming a mile away if you scout the front. a mile away if u scout the front?? scout that their out and just need to walk across the map or see the general mmm? im not trolling i'd love to know more mid game tells for T. their so versatile I think it's just very hard to scout, as the T has concussive when the ghosts are out so you can't poke that easily. Perhaps if you're very refined you can count the number of units and see something is wrong (2 ghosts are still 4 marauders or 8 marines, that's a big difference in army size), but you have to train a lot against that particular build, know exactly at what time to look and what should be the enemy composition, not easy. I think there was a similar push to this that carmac died to and rotterdam on ESL university monday cast explained in detail what he could do to scout even though its hard to poke and then how to deal with the units once they get to your base so may be worth watching for those learning. Yeah the people saying sentries are useless against an early ghost play are also not entirely correct since generally bases have high ground so a sentry should get at least one force field which is sometimes all you need. Also someone said keep the sentry far back which is also somewhat helpful on maps like Taldarim. StaLife did this build against MC on Shattered Temple. MC did check the ramp. In fact he, FFed the ramp till roughly the time he thinks Stalife would get medivacs out. Stalife did a good job of hiding his army. MC then retreated to his expansion and got rolled completely afterwards. His response was a 4-gate in the 2nd game and then a void ray in the 3rd. But those responses are not based on scouting but on the previous matches. That wasnt really the same that was MC doing an agressive contain i dont even think he went robo which got dealt with by medivacs and clever play unless im thinking of a different game.
Yeah containment is like. An entirely different discussion. My robo is always right in front of my expansion or right after it depending on what I see with my poke. Or right away obviously if I think I cant hold the expansion.
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so apparently did i just missed out on an epic MKP series?
the amount of balance whining points to that, can anyone give me a recap of what happened in those games that we haven't seen from mkp?
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On May 26 2011 23:52 xza wrote:
so apparently did i just missed out on an epic MKP series?
the amount of balance whining points to that, can anyone give me a recap of what happened in those games that we haven't seen from mkp?
he made tech labs on his barricks for reasons other than stim and combat sheild
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Whenever a player plays and the entire LR thread is devoted to claiming that his race is overpowered, it's a good indication that the player in question is total boss.
MKP back in form.
One day people will realise players like MC, Nestea, MKP don't play overpowered races, they're just overpowered players.
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On May 26 2011 23:52 xza wrote:
so apparently did i just missed out on an epic MKP series?
the amount of balance whining points to that, can anyone give me a recap of what happened in those games that we haven't seen from mkp?
Oh no not anything overly epic. MarineKingPrime versus Squirtle is a pretty clearcut match. Squirtle pretty much knew he couldnt take MKP head on so he tried the of course always standard double or triple tech into expansion and not make many units hoping he doesnt have detection.
MKP could have like, done anything probably, and won but people really hinged on the now standard ghost usage. First game he went pretty early ghosts but squirtle went like 1 gate expand on close air positions on Metalopolis. And yeah early ghosts can crush whatever you are making out of that, MKP had a later expand but better and more appropriate tech, so he wins.
Rest is just people being really scared of the black hole that is the terran wall in.
EDIT: Piemans explanation pretty much summed it up.
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Oh, thank god MKP saved my liquibets for the day. 1/4. ROFL. Shit, son, I should just stop rooting for people. It's like I cheer for them and then they lose nine times out of ten.
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Fruitdealers loss was painful for his fans. He knew he sort of botched up last game and it showed on his face after the game. Revival versus Ensnare game was so bad the OBSERVERS paused the game, not a player, presumably to ask the players what the fuck they were doing because it looked like they were alt tabbing watching porn and definitly not playing.
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your post is ridiculous summarised through
If there is 2 marauders and marine ultra early then he has only started his Ghost recently and until then those 3 units are pretty much what he has for awhile since he had to cut SOMETHING to get ghost tech anyway. Losing a few units is overcommital. At masters level, which you say you are, you shouldn't lose a whole lot unless you literally walk up the ramp into the bunker and start wailing at it with no idea whats up there. And yeah i mean Ghosts..... should be..... pretty good against gateway units. Thats why your able to stop them or do damage before they come out if they come out too quickly.
Its ridiculous cause I am talking about builds and players who try and win games. Not builds and players who make 2 - 3 units and make ghosts. Anyways... i was going to reply to your whole post of lol. but
Thats what we are talking about yes. Thats what scouting the front can almost exactly tell you if you can count units.
Since scouting is complete after seeing the ramp . Ok, ok, you poked his ramp. And since you can count units and I can't. You saw nothing but x number of marines and x number of bunkers.
How can you tell between:
[1] Cloak Banshee vs Blue Flame Drop?
[2] SCV All in vs Expansion?
[3] Ghosts vs BattleCruisers(LOL)?
I can throw more @ you but I wanna see ur ridiculous answer to these.
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Wow im 4/4 just had no confidence in Fruitdealer and Ensnare they're not that good anymore.
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On May 27 2011 00:08 NExt wrote:your post is ridiculous summarised through Show nested quote +If there is 2 marauders and marine ultra early then he has only started his Ghost recently and until then those 3 units are pretty much what he has for awhile since he had to cut SOMETHING to get ghost tech anyway. Losing a few units is overcommital. At masters level, which you say you are, you shouldn't lose a whole lot unless you literally walk up the ramp into the bunker and start wailing at it with no idea whats up there. And yeah i mean Ghosts..... should be..... pretty good against gateway units. Thats why your able to stop them or do damage before they come out if they come out too quickly. Its ridiculous cause I am talking about builds and players who try and win games. Not builds and players who make 2 - 3 units and make ghosts. Anyways... i was going to reply to your whole post of lol. but Show nested quote +Thats what we are talking about yes. Thats what scouting the front can almost exactly tell you if you can count units. Since the game is SO EASY. Ok, ok, you poked his ramp. And since you can count units and I can't. You saw nothing but x number of marines and x number of bunkers. How can you tell between: [1] Cloak Banshee vs Blue Flame Drop? [2] SCV All in vs Expansion? [3] Ghosts vs BattleCruisers(LOL)? I can throw more @ you but I wanna see ur ridiculous answer to these.
1. Nope I cant, same response though. Getting that robo out unless I know they are NOT doing number 1 and doing something I know I wont need a robo for (rare). Robo helps defend the typical tank follow up after blue flame and observer is right there anyway. If they are getting a medivac and helions AND blue flame then an appropriate amount of units should be at the front defending and I can then cross off certain strategies.
2.You mean the really early 5 minute one? They need low ground barracks to hide, if they are hiding an expo behind the low wall in I will attack a bit later than usual but probably to somewhat greater effect considering the vulnerability of this wall of, more info is in the appropriate thread on TL.
3. Er, I guess not, havent really encountered fast....... battlecruiser...... at all really but I would assume my response in the early game would be similar. I bet 3 gate kills BC rush since BC rush is like, the very definition of greedy overteching. Also generally terrans put there CC within sight range of the ramp so that its mildly close to the natural, if they do not do this then they will have a lot more units at the front anyway, if they are hiding units to fient an expo then you are going to continue pressuring the bunker until they are revealed. Huk does this admirably and really gets a lot of SCV kills, sometimes it can hurt you more than help which is where skill and experience come in, as it should.
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On May 27 2011 00:19 Medrea wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 00:08 NExt wrote:your post is ridiculous summarised through If there is 2 marauders and marine ultra early then he has only started his Ghost recently and until then those 3 units are pretty much what he has for awhile since he had to cut SOMETHING to get ghost tech anyway. Losing a few units is overcommital. At masters level, which you say you are, you shouldn't lose a whole lot unless you literally walk up the ramp into the bunker and start wailing at it with no idea whats up there. And yeah i mean Ghosts..... should be..... pretty good against gateway units. Thats why your able to stop them or do damage before they come out if they come out too quickly. Its ridiculous cause I am talking about builds and players who try and win games. Not builds and players who make 2 - 3 units and make ghosts. Anyways... i was going to reply to your whole post of lol. but Thats what we are talking about yes. Thats what scouting the front can almost exactly tell you if you can count units. Since the game is SO EASY. Ok, ok, you poked his ramp. And since you can count units and I can't. You saw nothing but x number of marines and x number of bunkers. How can you tell between: [1] Cloak Banshee vs Blue Flame Drop? [2] SCV All in vs Expansion? [3] Ghosts vs BattleCruisers(LOL)? I can throw more @ you but I wanna see ur ridiculous answer to these. 1. Nope I cant, same response though. Getting that robo out unless I know they are NOT doing number 1 and doing something I know I wont need a robo for (rare). Robo helps defend the typical tank follow up after blue flame and observer is right there anyway. 2.You mean the really early 5 minute one? They need low ground barracks to hide, if they are hiding an expo behind the low wall in I will attack a bit later than usual but probably to somewhat greater effect consider the vulnerability of this wall of, more info is in the appropriate thread, 3. Er, I guess not, havent really encountered fast....... battlecruiser...... at all really but I would assume my response in the early game would be similar. I bet 3 gate kills BC rush since BC rush is like, the very definition of greedy overteching. Also generally terrans put there CC within sight range of the ramp so that its mildly close to the natural, if they do not do this then they will have a lot more units at the front anyway, if they are hiding units to fient an expo then you are going to continue pressuring the bunker until they are revealed. Huk does this admirably and really gets a lot of SCV kills, sometimes it can hurt you more than help which is where skill and experience come in, as it should.
i didnt ask how u would react. I asked how would u know. you know what u answered.
You answered "no, I don't know after poking the ramp. I don't know what the Terran is up to."
k thx bye
♥
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You know what's ridiculous?
FruitDealer and July out, while Revival gets the nod to the second round. Damn brackets.
I'm not at all bitter, can you tell?
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On May 27 2011 00:30 babylon wrote:
You know what's ridiculous?
FruitDealer and July out, while Revival gets the nod to the second round. Damn brackets.
I'm not at all bitter, can you tell?
Would have been so much better if they used the TL ELO rankings to seed players instead of the GSL ones...
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On May 27 2011 00:23 NExt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2011 00:19 Medrea wrote:On May 27 2011 00:08 NExt wrote:your post is ridiculous summarised through If there is 2 marauders and marine ultra early then he has only started his Ghost recently and until then those 3 units are pretty much what he has for awhile since he had to cut SOMETHING to get ghost tech anyway. Losing a few units is overcommital. At masters level, which you say you are, you shouldn't lose a whole lot unless you literally walk up the ramp into the bunker and start wailing at it with no idea whats up there. And yeah i mean Ghosts..... should be..... pretty good against gateway units. Thats why your able to stop them or do damage before they come out if they come out too quickly. Its ridiculous cause I am talking about builds and players who try and win games. Not builds and players who make 2 - 3 units and make ghosts. Anyways... i was going to reply to your whole post of lol. but Thats what we are talking about yes. Thats what scouting the front can almost exactly tell you if you can count units. Since the game is SO EASY. Ok, ok, you poked his ramp. And since you can count units and I can't. You saw nothing but x number of marines and x number of bunkers. How can you tell between: [1] Cloak Banshee vs Blue Flame Drop? [2] SCV All in vs Expansion? [3] Ghosts vs BattleCruisers(LOL)? I can throw more @ you but I wanna see ur ridiculous answer to these. 1. Nope I cant, same response though. Getting that robo out unless I know they are NOT doing number 1 and doing something I know I wont need a robo for (rare). Robo helps defend the typical tank follow up after blue flame and observer is right there anyway. 2.You mean the really early 5 minute one? They need low ground barracks to hide, if they are hiding an expo behind the low wall in I will attack a bit later than usual but probably to somewhat greater effect consider the vulnerability of this wall of, more info is in the appropriate thread, 3. Er, I guess not, havent really encountered fast....... battlecruiser...... at all really but I would assume my response in the early game would be similar. I bet 3 gate kills BC rush since BC rush is like, the very definition of greedy overteching. Also generally terrans put there CC within sight range of the ramp so that its mildly close to the natural, if they do not do this then they will have a lot more units at the front anyway, if they are hiding units to fient an expo then you are going to continue pressuring the bunker until they are revealed. Huk does this admirably and really gets a lot of SCV kills, sometimes it can hurt you more than help which is where skill and experience come in, as it should. i didnt ask how u would react. I asked how would u know. you know what u answered. You answered "no, I don't know after poking the ramp. I don't know what the Terran is up to." k thx bye ♥
This is as about as forehead slapping as it can possibly get and I would post a picture of this but since TL doesnt like meme's I willl decline as I like having a clean record. A banshee and a blue flame helion response have somewhat similar responses (at least as far as what you are building) and do not share responses with other all ins, which is fine since the telegraphs are also different.
I did not know, that even at this masters level, the concept of checking off strategies via pressure and developing builds that are strong against groups of related builds the opponent has the options of doing, is not present. Especially when this is prevalent in almost every major RTS game since the 90's.
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EPT
