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[GSL] Grand Finals - Code S May - Page 205

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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pdd
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia9933 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-14 09:54:17
May 14 2011 09:53 GMT
#4081
On May 14 2011 18:39 shizna wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2011 18:25 pdd wrote:
On May 14 2011 17:55 shizna wrote:
terrible final and it's the GSL structure that's at fault.

the gap between qualified players and champion material is massive, but in code S you play a stupid group that doesn't make sense and then a Ro16.

inca beat huk and rain in a best of 1, then qualified for the Ro16.

the same format was responsible for jinro getting to the Ro4 (?), even though he's way out of his depth (great player, but not top GSL quality).

it doesn't work - the format means that you'll often get huge disparity in skill in the latter stages of the tournament which leads to terrible matches.

the group stage needs to be best of 3 at LEAST, and you should play everyone else in your group at least once. (like NASL *cough*)

not to mention the fact that half of the best players in korea have been sucked into code A... it wasn't going to be a classic tournament.


don't blame the loser, blame the dumb tournament structure.

This is a terribly ignorant post. While I agree tournament structures can determine outcomes, isn't it always the case for any tournament (particularly when you don't do a full rank 1-32 seeding).

1. How does group play not make sense? The top 2 of the group would make it to the Ro16. Same as a single elimination Ro32. Look at what happened to Leenock in the Ro32 of Code A this season. People thing's he's Code S potential, yet he lost in the first round. Upsets happen even if you use a Ro32 format.

2. Jinro made it to the Ro4 in GSL Season 3 where it was all single elimination and Season 4 (where the Ro16 was also a group stage... and he made it beating MC twice in his Ro16 group stage match and Idra in a Bo3).

3. Jinro was top calibre the last two seasons. He's since been slumping.

4. Are you saying that Nada is a terrible player? Everyone knows that Nada is the better player, and yet he lost. You can change the tournament structure around but it doesn't change the fact that Inca eventually ended up meeting a better player, where in ANY form of tournament he would have lost. But he didn't and you can't blame the tournament format for it, because it was Nada's fault for losing.

5. Yes a Bo3 format for each match up in the group stage would be ideal. Unfortunately GOM has a schedule. And it's either a Ro32 single elimination or the current GOM format, both have flaws, but the group stage offers something more and does not bias the lesser skill player.

6. NASL takes place over 3 months. GSL takes place within 1 month.

7. Every one of these "best" players you're talking about (with the exception of MMA and perhaps Leenock) is now in Code S and yet you still blame the GSL format. Dude, we've seen weaker players like LegalMind, JookTo, Maka, choya all get knocked out of Code A. If the format was favorable to these lesser skilled players we'll still seem them all in Code S. Every other player who questionably remained in Code S have gone on to prove that they deserve a spot

Polt - drastic improvement
San - drastic improvement
anypro - I hate this guy and think he doesn't deserve Code S, but he did beat July in a Bo3, so he does deserve his spot somewhat.
Rain - he played an excellent losing game to MVP and beat Rainbow fair and square.

Yeah it might not be a perfect system, but then again what is? Do you want the GSL to go back to the Open format they had to truly determine the best of the bests?

8. BW has been using single elimination and Bo1 group stages for MSL and OSL for years. Hardly anyone complains about it.

9. If anything I can agree with you though, is that groupings have to be done better. Even then, Nada should have beaten him. Again it's Nada's fault for losing to Inca, not the tournament structure.

10. If there's a skill disparity between Nestea and other players, who in your opinion should have been in the finals?

MC - lost twice to Polt (similar to losing a Bo3)
MKP - lost to Alicia and Nada (not in Bo3s, but the fact he knew he had to win twice in his group, makes it similar to a Bo3)
MVP - lost twice in TWO Bo3 to Genius and Alicia.
July - lost twice to anypro.
Bomber - didn't qualify for Code A the season before.. (lost to Alicia in a Bo3 in the Code A qualifiers)
MMA - lost to SangHo in a Bo3 the season before.

On May 14 2011 18:22 shizna wrote:
...and jinro is not even close to the level of mvp, nestea, july, san, anypro, mc etc.

we cheered for jinro because he was a foreigner, and he had a couple of amazing tourneys, but there are at least 30 players who have achieved a similar feat in the gsl. very few of those 30 players would create an interesting final series against the champion material, jinro included.

Jinro beat MC TWICE in GSL 4 to get to the Ro4.


ace, thorzain, whitera and ret have beaten MC twice (or more), it doesn't make them better players than MC.

MC is still a stronger and more consistant player, you can't win everything.

oh and polt beating MC in group stage... was that fair on TheWind? he didn't even get a chance to play versus polt, and was relegated to the up and down matches while polt advanced from his group. best of 1 is like boxing where whichever player scores the first hit wins the match... it's stupid.

Jinro was consistently beating players in from GSL 3 to 5, before he ended up losing to HongUn. And it's funny that you mention anypro who would've given Nestea his run for the money when Nestea easily beat him 3-1. Also prior to GSL 5, anypro had been losing consistently in GSLs.

TheWind lost twice already. Even if he beat Polt, he would be 1-2. Polt would've also been 1-2. If MC won against Supernova, he would have been eliminated anyway. Assuming Supernova won against MC and went 3-0, MC would also be 1-2, making Polt, TheWind and MC have to fight in tiebreakers... go watch IEM World Championships (Squirtle, Sjow and Socke tiebreaker)... those situations are a bitch to handle and for a competition with a schedule they have to compromise to the next best thing.

And the idea is based off BW MSL format and no one ever complained about players not having to face each other.

And from my understanding of your argument, the best format to have is a 64 player league where everyone plays everyone in Bo3 (so a total of 63 matches for each player) to determine who's the best. Of course it is the most likely format to give us the best player, but it doesn't make for a good tournament (lack of drama, significance of matches) and it'll be too time consuming.

There are obviously things which can be improved with the tournament structure, (better groupings and seedings), but given the bounds of GSL's schedule and what viewers want to see, the current GSL format is probably the best we have.

So please stop blaming the format for Inca being in the finals and just keep watching as the competition gets more competitive where we'll see truly great players win deservedly in a competitive finals.
TI4 Champions: EE-Sama | B7-God | A-God_2000 | Kappa Lord | pieliedie
Yoshi Kirishima
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States10383 Posts
May 14 2011 09:54 GMT
#4082
ace, thorzain, whitera and ret have beaten MC twice (or more), it doesn't make them better players than MC.


But it shows that Jinro is not not no where near MC's level. At least, it is very strong evidence that he is not not no where MC's level. Of course you can't "prove" this, hence why I say it's "strong evidence".
Mid-master streaming MECH ONLY + commentary www.twitch.tv/yoshikirishima +++ "If all-in fails, all-in again."
Rarak
Profile Joined May 2010
Australia631 Posts
May 14 2011 09:55 GMT
#4083
On May 14 2011 18:25 jazzbassmatt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2011 18:10 shizna wrote:
the only players that would have given nestea a challenge in a bo7 are like MVP and MC and to a lesser extent bomber, marineking, san and anypro.


I think nestea's zvp is just really strong right now. I doubt he would have 4-0'd MC, but I think he still would have won.


While nestea is good i still think MC is better in that matchup. That would have been a worthy final. Poor inca...
machination
Profile Joined September 2010
United States175 Posts
May 14 2011 09:57 GMT
#4084
On May 14 2011 18:54 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Show nested quote +
ace, thorzain, whitera and ret have beaten MC twice (or more), it doesn't make them better players than MC.


But it shows that Jinro is not not no where near MC's level. At least, it is very strong evidence that he is not not no where MC's level. Of course you can't "prove" this, hence why I say it's "strong evidence".


The English language has issues with double negatives...triple negatives generally make English speaker's heads explode
Railgan
Profile Joined August 2010
Switzerland1510 Posts
May 14 2011 09:57 GMT
#4085
VoD is up
Grandmaster Zerg from Switzerland!!! www.twitch.tv/railgan // www.twitter.com/railgansc // www.youtube.com/c/railgansc
luvyahuni
Profile Joined December 2010
Vietnam21 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-14 09:58:51
May 14 2011 09:58 GMT
#4086
why so serious ?
luvyahuni
Profile Joined December 2010
Vietnam21 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-14 09:59:35
May 14 2011 09:58 GMT
#4087

On May 14 2011 17:55 shizna wrote:

Show nested quote +
On May 14 2011 18:22 shizna wrote:
...and jinro is not even close to the level of mvp, nestea, july, san, anypro, mc etc.

we cheered for jinro because he was a foreigner, and he had a couple of amazing tourneys, but there are at least 30 players who have achieved a similar feat in the gsl. very few of those 30 players would create an interesting final series against the champion material, jinro included.

Jinro beat MC TWICE in GSL 4 to get to the Ro4.



and both of them were macro game, no cheese there
why so serious ?
human_ko
Profile Joined July 2010
Russian Federation676 Posts
May 14 2011 09:59 GMT
#4088
Many discussions I see here, but not speaking about gsl format, how stupid a player has to be to use 1 build 3 times in a row still losing with it? its all about inca's stupidness, I hope he never gets code S even not embarrass himself again
WOrd, yo.
mitthrawn
Profile Joined May 2010
Germany443 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-14 10:05:43
May 14 2011 10:01 GMT
#4089
On May 14 2011 18:26 Gotmog wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2011 17:06 Vorlik wrote:
On May 14 2011 17:04 SicPro wrote:
Did anyone really find those Korean commentators funny? I dont care what language youre speaking the way they commentate is probably the most aggravating sounds I've heard. And the stupid face's were fuel to my rage fire. How do people enjoy that?? Who is that aimed towards? Social retards who think annoying other people is a good time is all I can think of. Ruined the show.


I really hope Inca gets one game just so we dont have two 4-0 finals in a row. Doesn't look like he will tho. Nestea is ahead of him around every turn. When your blink stalkers are even failing against mutas you know youre outclassed.


You're so ignorant, just stop. It's a completely different culture, of course you wouldn't understand it, but to disrespect it? C'mon.


I can answer that...the same ppl who enjoy MMA, Yelling commentators during football matches etc...
IMO, sc2 should have commentating style of ... something like Tennis. Much calmer and a lot more analytical.

Hell that would be boring. I have to 100% agree with Vorlik. Disrespecting others cultures is so full of fail.

On May 14 2011 18:57 machination wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2011 18:54 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
ace, thorzain, whitera and ret have beaten MC twice (or more), it doesn't make them better players than MC.


But it shows that Jinro is not not no where near MC's level. At least, it is very strong evidence that he is not not no where MC's level. Of course you can't "prove" this, hence why I say it's "strong evidence".


The English language has issues with double negatives...triple negatives generally make English speaker's heads explode

Haha :D You should try that with people from Asia. I have a friend in Japan and she can't even cope with single negatives.
/o\
pieman819
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia457 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-14 10:07:40
May 14 2011 10:07 GMT
#4090
On May 14 2011 18:59 human_ko wrote:
, how stupid a player has to be to use 1 build 3 times in a row still losing with it?

like what Nada did in the semis you mean.
Hi
wing_omega5_0
Profile Joined May 2011
Canada39 Posts
May 14 2011 10:07 GMT
#4091
Anyone know where I can get the cover of Neon Trees- Animal they used in the credits?
gnutz
Profile Joined November 2010
Germany666 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-14 10:13:39
May 14 2011 10:13 GMT
#4092
i mean congrats NesTea, i just need battle reports now. Poor Inca
coldasice
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia208 Posts
May 14 2011 10:16 GMT
#4093
Gonna go re-watch sC vs NesTea and pretend that was the finals.
Ezekyle
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia607 Posts
May 14 2011 10:30 GMT
#4094
"Hey Tasteless, what's it like when you go on the ladder?"
"This."
shizna
Profile Joined April 2011
United Kingdom803 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-14 10:46:35
May 14 2011 10:30 GMT
#4095
Jinro was consistently beating players in from GSL 3 to 5, before he ended up losing to HongUn. And it's funny that you mention anypro who would've given Nestea his run for the money when Nestea easily beat him 3-1. Also prior to GSL 5, anypro had been losing consistently in GSLs.

TheWind lost twice already. Even if he beat Polt, he would be 1-2. Polt would've also been 1-2. If MC won against Supernova, he would have been eliminated anyway. Assuming Supernova won against MC and went 3-0, MC would also be 1-2, making Polt, TheWind and MC have to fight in tiebreakers... go watch IEM World Championships (Squirtle, Sjow and Socke tiebreaker)... those situations are a bitch to handle and for a competition with a schedule they have to compromise to the next best thing.

And the idea is based off BW MSL format and no one ever complained about players not having to face each other.

And from my understanding of your argument, the best format to have is a 64 player league where everyone plays everyone in Bo3 (so a total of 63 matches for each player) to determine who's the best. Of course it is the most likely format to give us the best player, but it doesn't make for a good tournament (lack of drama, significance of matches) and it'll be too time consuming.

There are obviously things which can be improved with the tournament structure, (better groupings and seedings), but given the bounds of GSL's schedule and what viewers want to see, the current GSL format is probably the best we have.

So please stop blaming the format for Inca being in the finals and just keep watching as the competition gets more competitive where we'll see truly great players win deservedly in a competitive finals.


come on, inca versus nestea was no contest. i merely said that san or anypro would have been a better prospect for a final... but still nestea would have been the clear favourite of course.

the best players are the most consistent players, because tournaments are always harsh.

the up and coming stars of the GSL, as seen in the team league etc are not considered great players yet, they still need to prove themselves in tournaments against the top players in a best of 3, 5 or 7.

anypro and san have been around since the start of GSL and despite ups and downs (ugh stompings) they're almost always in the latter stages of the tournament. they're not champion material, but they're formidable enough to demand respect from the champions.


imo the best tournament format is to draft seeds and qualifiers into groups, each player in the group plays a best of 3 against every other player in the group.

the top two players advance to the knockout stage. if a tiebreaker is needed then a simple bo3 between the tied players is fine... then knockout bo3 all the way, then a bo5 semi and a Bo7 final.

the excitement and drama of champion versus chaff matches should happen at group stage or ro32... not in the ro4 or final.

edit: phail spellingzor
Piggiez
Profile Joined March 2011
393 Posts
May 14 2011 10:31 GMT
#4096
On May 14 2011 18:59 human_ko wrote: I hope he never gets code S even not embarrass himself again


He's already Code S..?
Lorizean
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Germany1330 Posts
May 14 2011 10:45 GMT
#4097
On May 14 2011 19:16 coldasice wrote:
Gonna go re-watch sC vs NesTea and pretend that was the finals.

Best mode of action probably.
Quite disappointing to see such a one-sided slaughter in the Finals. I'm quite the noob, but I don't think the problem was InCa doing the same (or similar) build but NesTea simply outplaying him, wouldn't have mattered if he did another build. Such strong reactive play.
What Idra said on SotG is a very valid point, how Zerg lacks a proper way to scout reliably in early game, but when you do get the information, I think Zerg is nearly unstoppable. The other races lack the ability to react as fast and completely to information. At least that's the impression I'm getting.
ChickenLips
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
2912 Posts
May 14 2011 10:48 GMT
#4098
My theory is that they played the shit out of those DT builds in practice and thought with the new patch and the improved Archons it would make for a solid build. MC said in his interview after the vJuly finals that he really practiced that DT build on I believe Tal'darim Altar and it went so well that he even told his opponents to make spores in preparation

So yeah, MC mind-fucked InCa into going DTs every game ('I beat the God of War with it and that was WITHOUT the improved archons') to remain the only Protoss to have won a GSL.
❤Ƹ̵̡Ӝ̵̨̄Ʒ✿
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-05-14 10:50:04
May 14 2011 10:49 GMT
#4099
On May 14 2011 18:57 machination wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 14 2011 18:54 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
ace, thorzain, whitera and ret have beaten MC twice (or more), it doesn't make them better players than MC.


But it shows that Jinro is not not no where near MC's level. At least, it is very strong evidence that he is not not no where MC's level. Of course you can't "prove" this, hence why I say it's "strong evidence".


The English language has issues with double negatives...triple negatives generally make English speaker's heads explode

haha you are good. wonder what grammatical construction stands behind that "not not no" thing. By the way russian speaker can use double negatives easy.
Ezekyle
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Australia607 Posts
May 14 2011 10:49 GMT
#4100
On May 14 2011 17:21 Barca wrote:
-_________________________________________-

MC wins with all-ins using force fields and TL explodes with "imba!"

Nestea wins with all-ins using roach/ling and TL explodes with "omg i <3 Nestea"



Don't get me wrong, Nestea > InCa for sure. Just too much bias going around.


Recommended games polls:
MC win #1 vs July: 42% recommended
Nestea win #1 vs Inca 1: 18% recommended

MC win #2 vs July: 36% recommended
Nestea win #2 vs Inca 1: 10% recommended

MC win #3 vs July: 43% recommended
Nestea win #3 vs Inca 1: 13% recommended

MC win #4 vs July: 36% recommended
Nestea win #4 vs Inca 1: 15% recommended

Yep, TL sure loved Nestea's games a hell of a lot more. Damn those biased Zerg players.
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