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On May 14 2011 19:45 Lorizean wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 19:16 coldasice wrote:
Gonna go re-watch sC vs NesTea and pretend that was the finals. Best mode of action probably. Quite disappointing to see such a one-sided slaughter in the Finals. I'm quite the noob, but I don't think the problem was InCa doing the same (or similar) build but NesTea simply outplaying him, wouldn't have mattered if he did another build. Such strong reactive play. What Idra said on SotG is a very valid point, how Zerg lacks a proper way to scout reliably in early game, but when you do get the information, I think Zerg is nearly unstoppable. The other races lack the ability to react as fast and completely to information. At least that's the impression I'm getting.
it's not the lack of scouting. the problem has always been the lack of an early well-rounded unit, such as the marine or stalker.
making some early roaches to 'not die' is standard. but this isn't ideal if the opponent is planning to pressure or rush with marauder, immortal or air.
hydralisk is blizzard's obvious answer, but they come too late and are too weak/costly in early game.
the first thing you notice when playing as zerg is that it's soooo easy to get caught with your pants down, because if scouting is denied you don't have the feeling of security from making a few extra stalker/marine.
for this reason, i would love hydra's to be slightly buffed, either +1 base armor or small cost reduction (75/50 for example). so that investing in early hydras is more useful if your opponent does NOT commit to early anti-roach aggression.
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On May 14 2011 18:55 Rarak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 18:25 jazzbassmatt wrote:On May 14 2011 18:10 shizna wrote:
the only players that would have given nestea a challenge in a bo7 are like MVP and MC and to a lesser extent bomber, marineking, san and anypro. I think nestea's zvp is just really strong right now. I doubt he would have 4-0'd MC, but I think he still would have won. While nestea is good i still think MC is better in that matchup. That would have been a worthy final. Poor inca...
Don't forget that at the time of MC's triumph (when he beat July, etc.) roach rush as it is today wasn't yet invented. Losira polished and improved it to the point where it is impossible to hold with a 3 warp gate expand. The only two walkarounds are TD and VR expands, and we don't know how good MC is with those builds as the only strat that he has ever done against zerg was 3 gate expand.
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On May 14 2011 19:30 Ezekyle wrote:
"Hey Tasteless, what's it like when you go on the ladder?"
"This."
Epic.
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On May 14 2011 18:53 pdd wrote:
And the idea is based off BW MSL format and no one ever complained about players not having to face each other.
The MSL format isn't like the GSL format. If there's a tie then they continue to play out games. In GSL if there's a tie the same people play again. This makes a very strange and lopsided group, where a player can get through because they are better vs one individual where as the individual might be better against the remaining players.
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I wonder if the patch influenced the results a bit, maybe inca was not used yet to the changes?
I don't doubt nestea would've destroyed him before the patch, but maybe the games would be a bit more entertaining?
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On May 14 2011 17:37 AimForTheBushes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 17:33 Seide wrote:On May 14 2011 17:17 QTIP. wrote:
I really hope no one makes that silly Idra argument..
If zerg's win - it's because we're 50 times better than you.
If we lose - it's because of imbalance. Logically if zerg was in fact imba, then when zerg won it would be because the player was much more skilled, and when they lost imbalance would of played a major role. It is actually a sound basis for an argument. No, it isn't. Since when is an opinion a sound basis for an argument??
Going completely off-topic, I really had to quote this for the laughs. I know I fell off my chair.
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Watched the VODs. Pretty underwhelming finals.
I'm not even sure Inca played bad. Nestea's style and timings just seemed to have no holes.
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On May 14 2011 19:58 Reasonable wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 18:55 Rarak wrote:On May 14 2011 18:25 jazzbassmatt wrote:On May 14 2011 18:10 shizna wrote:
the only players that would have given nestea a challenge in a bo7 are like MVP and MC and to a lesser extent bomber, marineking, san and anypro. I think nestea's zvp is just really strong right now. I doubt he would have 4-0'd MC, but I think he still would have won. While nestea is good i still think MC is better in that matchup. That would have been a worthy final. Poor inca... Don't forget that at the time of MC's triumph (when he beat July, etc.) roach rush as it is today wasn't yet invented. Losira polished and improved it to the point where it is impossible to hold with a 3 warp gate expand. The only two walkarounds are TD and VR expands, and we don't know how good MC is with those builds as the only strat that he has ever done against zerg was 3 gate expand.
All the more reason to want MC to play Nestea. Right now, this early zerg aggression against protoss seems pretty unstoppable by everyone whos tried. So assuming that this build isn't unstoppable, MC is the most likely protoss to come up with the right build to successfully defend the attack while not sacrificing his economy. The attempts by Inca, Alicia, and anypro to counter these aggressive zerg builds were quite sad, and they are pretty much the other top korean toss at the moment =/
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On May 13 2011 18:04 motbob wrote:In celebration of the upcoming finals, I finally got the results thread updated  By the way: Nestea doesn't lose to his Protoss practice partners very much. A quote from a recent interview: Show nested quote +(Nestea) – To be honest, to play protoss is ridiculously simple. I know I have qqed plenty before, but in the teamhouse practice, I hardly lose to them. Did this quote come about because Nestea's practice partners are really good? OR did they come about because Nestea is unbeatable at ZvP and is going to squash Inca like a bug? Find out tomorrow!
I guess this is more clear now.
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Russian Federation823 Posts
On May 14 2011 19:58 Reasonable wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 18:55 Rarak wrote:On May 14 2011 18:25 jazzbassmatt wrote:On May 14 2011 18:10 shizna wrote:
the only players that would have given nestea a challenge in a bo7 are like MVP and MC and to a lesser extent bomber, marineking, san and anypro. I think nestea's zvp is just really strong right now. I doubt he would have 4-0'd MC, but I think he still would have won. While nestea is good i still think MC is better in that matchup. That would have been a worthy final. Poor inca... Don't forget that at the time of MC's triumph (when he beat July, etc.) roach rush as it is today wasn't yet invented. Losira polished and improved it to the point where it is impossible to hold with a 3 warp gate expand. The only two walkarounds are TD and VR expands, and we don't know how good MC is with those builds as the only strat that he has ever done against zerg was 3 gate expand.
Morrow wrote somewhere that this is not true at all. Check the Alicia/Losira Strategy thread.
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On May 14 2011 20:06 Fenrisulf wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 19:58 Reasonable wrote:On May 14 2011 18:55 Rarak wrote:On May 14 2011 18:25 jazzbassmatt wrote:On May 14 2011 18:10 shizna wrote:
the only players that would have given nestea a challenge in a bo7 are like MVP and MC and to a lesser extent bomber, marineking, san and anypro. I think nestea's zvp is just really strong right now. I doubt he would have 4-0'd MC, but I think he still would have won. While nestea is good i still think MC is better in that matchup. That would have been a worthy final. Poor inca... Don't forget that at the time of MC's triumph (when he beat July, etc.) roach rush as it is today wasn't yet invented. Losira polished and improved it to the point where it is impossible to hold with a 3 warp gate expand. The only two walkarounds are TD and VR expands, and we don't know how good MC is with those builds as the only strat that he has ever done against zerg was 3 gate expand. All the more reason to want MC to play Nestea. Right now, this early zerg aggression against protoss seems pretty unstoppable by everyone whos tried. So assuming that this build isn't unstoppable, MC is the most likely protoss to come up with the right build to successfully defend the attack while not sacrificing his economy. The attempts by Inca, Alicia, and anypro to counter these aggressive zerg builds were quite sad, and they are pretty much the other top korean toss at the moment =/
No-no! I'm enjoying a run up the master league with protosses being out of the way. Let us, zergs, have fun time for a month or two 
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Wow it was easily the worst gsl final ever ,I can't believe how bad Inca PvZ looked...
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My GSL finals:
Fell asleep in game 1.
Woke up to the nestea winners interview.
So dissapointed in myself:p
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You know, InCa went to the finals, this must be dreamlike for progamers, can't go any higher than that, other than winning the gold. And he was there, one match from the title champion and what happened in the end? He didn't just loose, he was outright humiliated. Not only that but people are hostile towards him for the poor performance.
Hope he proves to everyone and himself, that he is better than what he showed today.
Other than that - I am happy that Nestea won, he definitely deserved it. Too bad the games were so one sided, but then again it was the finals...
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On May 14 2011 19:30 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +Jinro was consistently beating players in from GSL 3 to 5, before he ended up losing to HongUn. And it's funny that you mention anypro who would've given Nestea his run for the money when Nestea easily beat him 3-1. Also prior to GSL 5, anypro had been losing consistently in GSLs.
TheWind lost twice already. Even if he beat Polt, he would be 1-2. Polt would've also been 1-2. If MC won against Supernova, he would have been eliminated anyway. Assuming Supernova won against MC and went 3-0, MC would also be 1-2, making Polt, TheWind and MC have to fight in tiebreakers... go watch IEM World Championships (Squirtle, Sjow and Socke tiebreaker)... those situations are a bitch to handle and for a competition with a schedule they have to compromise to the next best thing.
And the idea is based off BW MSL format and no one ever complained about players not having to face each other.
And from my understanding of your argument, the best format to have is a 64 player league where everyone plays everyone in Bo3 (so a total of 63 matches for each player) to determine who's the best. Of course it is the most likely format to give us the best player, but it doesn't make for a good tournament (lack of drama, significance of matches) and it'll be too time consuming.
There are obviously things which can be improved with the tournament structure, (better groupings and seedings), but given the bounds of GSL's schedule and what viewers want to see, the current GSL format is probably the best we have.
So please stop blaming the format for Inca being in the finals and just keep watching as the competition gets more competitive where we'll see truly great players win deservedly in a competitive finals. come on, inca versus nestea was no contest. i merely said that san or anypro would have been a better prospect for a final... but still nestea would have been the clear favourite of course. the best players are the most consistent players, because tournaments are always harsh. the up and coming stars of the GSL, as seen in the team league etc are not considered great players yet, they still need to prove themselves in tournaments against the top players in a best of 3, 5 or 7. anypro and san have been around since the start of GSL and despite ups and downs (ugh stompings) they're almost always in the latter stages of the tournament. they're not champion material, but they're formidable enough to demand respect from the champions. imo the best tournament format is to draft seeds and qualifiers into groups, each player in the group plays a best of 3 against every other player in the group. the top two players advance to the knockout stage. if a tiebreaker is needed then a simple bo3 between the tied players is fine... then knockout bo3 all the way, then a bo5 semi and a Bo7 final. the excitement and drama of champion versus chaff matches should happen at group stage or ro32... not in the ro4 or final. edit: phail spellingzor
Yeah, I definitely agree with you that they could do a better job at seeding/grouping players. But again, that's my only complain. Ignoring the seedings (or lack thereof), the format is good as it is.
As for Bo3 in group stages and tiebreakers, again I've said, the GSL runs on a schedule and at the moment they're not willing to loosen the schedule. (there was a 3 way tie in IEM World Champs between Squirtle, Sjow and Socke and they had to play 4 rounds of tiebreakers or something like that - that 12 matches). No way GSL can afford to allow something like that to happen and we don't want a coinflip (a la Dreamhack) to determine tiebreakers.
And I don't think Inca is any different from anypro. He's been around for a long time. He's extremely good at PvP and is okay at PvT. Unfortunately his PvZ is atrocious and that's why we saw him lose the way he did. You don't go 7-0 in the knockout stages for no reason. He lucked out that he didn't get any Zerg opponents through out the tournament and had relatively weaker opponents, but he deserved his spot in the finals.
Same way anypro made it to the semis last season -- by beating players who were relatively weaker than others... had he beaten July in the semis last season he would have then proceeded to have been rofl-stomped by MC and people would've complained about it as well, the same way you're complaining about Inca.
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On May 14 2011 19:49 Ezekyle wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 17:21 Barca wrote:
-_________________________________________-
MC wins with all-ins using force fields and TL explodes with "imba!"
Nestea wins with all-ins using roach/ling and TL explodes with "omg i <3 Nestea"
Don't get me wrong, Nestea > InCa for sure. Just too much bias going around. Recommended games polls: MC win #1 vs July: 42% recommended Nestea win #1 vs Inca 1: 18% recommended MC win #2 vs July: 36% recommended Nestea win #2 vs Inca 1: 10% recommended MC win #3 vs July: 43% recommended Nestea win #3 vs Inca 1: 13% recommended MC win #4 vs July: 36% recommended Nestea win #4 vs Inca 1: 15% recommended Yep, TL sure loved Nestea's games a hell of a lot more. Damn those biased Zerg players.
If anything that just makes it look like Z can dominate P a lot harder than P can dominate Z.
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On May 14 2011 20:14 Pekkz wrote:
My GSL finals:
Fell asleep in game 1.
Woke up to the nestea winners interview.
So dissapointed in myself:p
Didn't miss much 
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imo its too easy for zerg to throw up a few spores and be completly safe from anything protoss does early except the 4 gate (which was nurfed) :\ with queens also air becomes pointless and dts become redundent, not sure why inca went dts so many times and never got cannons for defence, i think these games so how strong roach ling is and unless you have a suer high sentry count you insta die.
i still get z's telling me ff is op and to be honest it isn't, its the only way protoss can LIVE early game which means they cant attack so z can do whatever they want. this is how i feel in pvz at the moment because p cant scout if that rush is coming, or if he just has 70 drones and by the time hallucination finishes now it is generally too late. i think all this finals taught me was dt builds are useless vs Z and just confirms my thoughts on that if z actually makes some units early game then they are a reallllllllly strong race. it was also nice in the late game to show the insta tech switch z's can do also , 20 roaches into 20 mutas.. thats a pretty hard change for any other race to make, i dont go 6 colusus then insta switch to 10 voids lol . more z should be doing that
edit: just a point for ppl like idra
PVZ in this tournament (check records at GSL)
34% set win rate for p. - just saying (9w 17L)
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@ the NYC GSL Finals Viewing Party
GSL Spoilers
Warning: Rant
+ Show Spoiler +Fucken InCa, FUCKEN InCa, I am glad he lost, but he lost so badly...... SOOO BADLY that it was too early to get breakfast. We walked around for an hour trying to find breakfast. If he didn't DT rush 3 times in a row the game would have ended later, and we wouldn't have to walk around so much just to find food
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EPT
