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On May 14 2011 17:22 TehForce wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 17:17 proxY_ wrote:On May 14 2011 17:16 TehForce wrote:On May 14 2011 17:15 proxY_ wrote:
What's happened to Inca here is just an an indication of how volatile the current metagame is and how easy it is for inferior players to take games of better players with strong all-in builds. That's unfortunate but the truth. As the metagame keeps evolving and players get better that will eventually (hopefully) go away but that's the reality of the game right now.
I don't want to keep piling on Inca though, Nestea is a complete beast. Look at his timings in that series with the evo chambers and spore crawlers, they were perfect. it has more to do with an easy route to the finals and nada beeing terribad in defending cheese How do you think the inferior players he beat generally got there in the first place? You have to factor in how good his pvp is but that honestly doesn't say much. bracket setup T_T if there are only bad players on the lower side of his brackets and after that only facing protoss players, a bad player (in 2/3 of the mus) can get to the top. (+ luck factor. he would have already lost in ro32 but his opponent screwed up badly) just like in season1 when rainbow was in the finals because he only played TvT, but sucked in TvZ
Yeah it's even more prevalent in the Code S/A format now. You only have to win 2 games in groups then beat 3 players to get to the FINALs of a 40K tournament. Compared with a run through a 64 man bracket after winning 3 rounds just to qualify...it almost makes the MLG format look better in comparison.
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France12886 Posts
On May 14 2011 17:33 I_Love_Bacon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 17:32 Poopi wrote:
About people to cried/QQed about protoss being imba in the July vs MC final, they probably kinda forgot that MC was the protoss who won his title when everyone considered P super weak : the guy will win no matter the current metagame/balance (until better players switch over?).
I hope the Super Tournament will have a better final.. I don't think it's possible to have a worse one. I don't even think that's even hyperbole on my part. I can't fathom a final, that has any legitimate chance of happening, that was less interesting than that.
Yeah sry I mean a "decent" final at least :D
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On May 14 2011 17:33 Ruscour wrote:
Can anyone tell me how you beat that two base roach/ling aggression without sacking the expo and being behind? Early Gateway pressure before that? Rush to Immortals? Stargate works, but what about when it gets countered? Really curious to know.
You are always going to be behind. Theres really nothing you can do.
What I learned to do, is learned to accept it. You have to outplay your opponent so much now. Or surprise them with DTs, but as shown clearly that doesnt work vs any zerg who isnt braindead.
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It was kinda sad that he got to finals by cheesing his teammate, who also had a slightly better chance in the finals. When it's a guy from another team it's one thing, but a teammate is just weak.
Then again, that wouldn't work out because you have to play to win... if both players were to, for example, play "honorably" as in play long games with less luck, what then would be considered "cheesy"? If they both go for macro games but someone does a three base timing push, would that be weak? If not, then what if the other player did a 2 base timing push to counter a potential 3 base timing push? Then is that not weak? It just repeats until you get back to the very early cheeses like 6 pool and whatnot. What I'm trying to say is there would be no "Cut off point" for whether how they play is too greedy or not cheesy.
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Watching someone helpless get the absolute shit kicked out of them doesn't make for good viewing (although I bet NesTea enjoyed those games very much so)
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On May 14 2011 17:33 Ruscour wrote:
Can anyone tell me how you beat that two base roach/ling aggression without sacking the expo and being behind? Early Gateway pressure before that? Rush to Immortals? Stargate works, but what about when it gets countered? Really curious to know.
Decent to above average forcefield usage, 3 gate pressure, more cannons, etc. Is it hard to beat yes...is it impossible...no.
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So what is inca's vZ record now... 0-8? Lol. Gosh i really hoped NaDa got into the finals instead of him.
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On May 14 2011 17:25 lbmaian wrote:
If anything, this is a pretty good argument that the GSL league format is flawed. I'm not sure what would be better though.
A double elimination format is fairer toward better players, but would require more games and leads to a less fair finals (since one player has such a huge advantage).
More group stages will also ensure that more well-rounded players advance, but if it's the same amount of games, it also lessens the importance of preparation (which may also be a good thing). As a side note: I also think the GSL group stage format is ridiculous...at least copy the MSL format.
I disagree that this is proof that it's flawed. Give it more time, the bad players have consistently been dropping into Code A and out of the GSL entirely. There are still a few lucky stragglers, but in a few months all the NextLiveForevers and BitByBits and Incas (?) should be gone. Look at the incredible talent that rose through Code A this season--like pouring water into a toilet full of piss, eventually the water becomes clear. 
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On May 14 2011 17:35 Moreboom wrote:
Watching someone helpless get the absolute shit kicked out of them doesn't make for good viewing (although I bet NesTea enjoyed those games very much so)
He actually seemed quite bored =\
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On May 14 2011 17:33 Seide wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 17:17 QTIP. wrote:
I really hope no one makes that silly Idra argument..
If zerg's win - it's because we're 50 times better than you.
If we lose - it's because of imbalance. Logically if zerg was in fact imba, then when zerg won it would be because the player was much more skilled, and when they lost imbalance would of played a major role. It is actually a sound basis for an argument.
No, it isn't. Since when is an opinion a sound basis for an argument??
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On May 14 2011 17:34 Rayansaki wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 17:32 Codeskye wrote:On May 14 2011 17:31 Rayansaki wrote:On May 14 2011 17:29 QTIP. wrote:On May 14 2011 17:26 Whisps wrote:
Shit I'd take 20 G's to get 4-0'd.
Next season! This is so true. If I was InCa, i'd have a hard time dealing with that embarrassing series, but I'd have some solace knowing that I'm still bringing home 20K. It was kinda sad that he got to finals by cheesing his teammate, who also had a slightly better chance in the finals. When it's a guy from another team it's one thing, but a teammate is just weak. pro players play to win to earn money. it won't matter to them if they have to cheese to win. I understand that and agree with that. It's just that when it comes to two teammates playing, they should have a bit more respect than that.
it won't matter. im sure those 2 respect each other but again you gotta play to win.
btw, inca didn't cheese nada in game 3--it was a macro game.
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InCa's not absolutely terrible, guys. Stop comparing him to BitByBit. If nothing else, his PvP is pretty damn beastly.
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On May 14 2011 17:37 David451 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 17:25 lbmaian wrote:
If anything, this is a pretty good argument that the GSL league format is flawed. I'm not sure what would be better though.
A double elimination format is fairer toward better players, but would require more games and leads to a less fair finals (since one player has such a huge advantage).
More group stages will also ensure that more well-rounded players advance, but if it's the same amount of games, it also lessens the importance of preparation (which may also be a good thing). As a side note: I also think the GSL group stage format is ridiculous...at least copy the MSL format. I disagree that this is proof that it's flawed. Give it more time, the bad players have consistently been dropping into Code A and out of the GSL entirely. There are still a few lucky stragglers, but in a few months all the NextLiveForevers and BitByBits and Incas (?) should be gone. Look at the incredible talent that rose through Code A this season--like pouring water into a toilet full of piss, eventually the water becomes clear.
Yea, next season code S should be awesome, with the 'new-bloods' from code A. (Kind of sad that MMA dropped back to code A but Huk played really well)
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On May 14 2011 17:37 AimForTheBushes wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 17:33 Seide wrote:On May 14 2011 17:17 QTIP. wrote:
I really hope no one makes that silly Idra argument..
If zerg's win - it's because we're 50 times better than you.
If we lose - it's because of imbalance. Logically if zerg was in fact imba, then when zerg won it would be because the player was much more skilled, and when they lost imbalance would of played a major role. It is actually a sound basis for an argument. No, it isn't. Since when is an opinion a sound basis for an argument??
Isn't opinion usually the basis of an argument? If it was a fact, it wouldn't be an argument: it would be a statement.
I'm not saying his opinion is true or false, im just saying if his opinion were true, that statement would hold, barring some outliers.
You sir are correct though, i misspoke calling it a basis, as his experience with Zerg is his basis. Sorry, it is late, but that statement could still support his argument if his opinion that zerg is up was true.
Zerg is up: Thus it takes a player of higher skill to win against a lesser player, and a zerg player will lose to someone who is equal to him more often because they are up.
Something like that, but that's his argument, not mine. I have no opinion on this matter. Just wanted to point out that that statement is sound coming from someone arguing his perspective.
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On May 14 2011 17:33 Ruscour wrote:
Can anyone tell me how you beat that two base roach/ling aggression without sacking the expo and being behind? Early Gateway pressure before that? Rush to Immortals? Stargate works, but what about when it gets countered? Really curious to know.
Building units and not sacrificing your mineral income to rush for a slow building easily counterable cheese strategy to attempt to get ahead might count.
It was clearly obvious that NesTea was going to play safe every game. The Spore Crawler is an absolute must as a zerg versus protoss. Stops 2 of the most painful all in builds dead in their tracks.
If Inca established himself with a solid gateway army, chronoboosted some upgrades and spent his gas on sentries to ensure him safety with his expansion he would of been in a much better position. Instead, he threw away extremely expensive units over and over again after committing his entire early game income into them.
You simply cannot hold agaisnt an early expand into cost effective cheap units without sentries.
Inca literally played like garbage.
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France12886 Posts
On May 14 2011 17:37 David451 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 17:25 lbmaian wrote:
If anything, this is a pretty good argument that the GSL league format is flawed. I'm not sure what would be better though.
A double elimination format is fairer toward better players, but would require more games and leads to a less fair finals (since one player has such a huge advantage).
More group stages will also ensure that more well-rounded players advance, but if it's the same amount of games, it also lessens the importance of preparation (which may also be a good thing). As a side note: I also think the GSL group stage format is ridiculous...at least copy the MSL format. I disagree that this is proof that it's flawed. Give it more time, the bad players have consistently been dropping into Code A and out of the GSL entirely. There are still a few lucky stragglers, but in a few months all the NextLiveForevers and BitByBits and Incas (?) should be gone. Look at the incredible talent that rose through Code A this season--like pouring water into a toilet full of piss, eventually the water becomes clear.
InCa isn't as bad as you claim him to be lol.
Plus since his PvP is good it'll hard for him to drop out of code S.
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I hope Blizzard do something to emend this outrageous imbalance, like adding something below practice league so inca can play safely.
Seriously, who is the worst gsl finalist ever? Last year I thought rainbow was bad, then rain came and now inca displaying a whole new level of badness.
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oh well i hate to say that but I'm pretty sure most of the mid/high masters would do better than inca ..
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Will the 64 player GSL change player's code-rankings?
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Now that the heavy hitters have arrived in Code S, I hope people like Inca don't get into a final anymore.
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EPT
