|
Its time to enjoy the matches, keep the whining out of this thread. GL HF!
Also, don't reply to the whining and ignore it: have faith in the mods, we read every post and act swiftly. You're making it worse. Enjoy! |
On April 18 2011 06:23 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:21 [Atomic]Peace wrote:On April 18 2011 06:18 zeru wrote:On April 18 2011 06:18 [Atomic]Peace wrote:On April 18 2011 06:14 Kennigit wrote:King of Manner Kennigit says (4:57 PM): you did well ^^ . Everyone on twitter was cheering for you Mondragon says (4:58 PM): nah after the games vs cruncher i found out how to play XD Kennigit says (4:58 PM): hahah Mondragon says (4:58 PM): wouldnt have lost now! ^^ roaches + infestors only are the key to everything Mondragon says (4:58 PM): found out too late taht infestors are the key ! Kennigit says (4:59 PM): protoss death ball is -_- Mondragon says (5:00 PM): yes protoss deathball isnt tough anymore if you make 10 infestors ^^ either infestors + roaches only Kennigit says (5:00 PM): haha Mondragon says (5:00 PM): or just broodlords only + infestors only both are fine but i found out 3 days too late Kennigit says (5:00 PM): ahh ;;; oh well, next time ^^ Mondragon says (5:00 PM): yep yep  ----- Take your zerg tears elsewhere Very manner by Mondi. You should ask him to release a few replays of him playing that style against the deathball. Mondi is way too secretive ^^ Ha well, it's only a replay or two! If Mondi can indeed beat Cruncher's style reliably with Infestors, it would go a long way towards motivating Zergs if Mondi were to release a replay. A replay or two wouldnt prove much anyway. Winning a game every now and then with a style that actually doesnt work generally happens. And there's many replays of zergs playing spanishiwa style with mass infestor winning against top protosses.
I love Spanishiwa and I think what he is doing is great for Zerg play. I watch is stream all the time! But Spanishiwa isn't playing on the same level right now as the TSL. It's not a valid comparison.
|
On April 18 2011 06:21 Tegin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:14 Tracedragon wrote:On April 18 2011 06:07 Tegin wrote:
Pretty sure the better player won today, and that better player was CrunCher. That's why they played a best of 5. Anyone complaining because of the outcome need to realize CrunCher outplayed Mondragon, especially in the final game. It's sad to see no zergs left..maybe they need to pick their games up a bit to contend? So are you implying that all Zerg players are bad? :/ No. I'm saying they need to pick their game up. Kinda like what a pitcher would need to get a final out in the 9th inning, or a basketball player to hit a game winning shot. There are tons of great zerg players, but none of them are "finishing" in TSL3.
TSL 3 - No zergs in top 8
MLG dallas - top zerg is Idra at 5
Dreamhack - Idra at 4
GSL world - no zerg in top 4
Yep Zerg (all zerg players) just need to pick up their game.
|
On April 18 2011 05:59 VarpuliS wrote:/hug
/rehug
but I am also in need of one 
|
Congrats to Cruncher for the win!
Lot's of mistakes by Mondragon though the last game...
Mutas weren't aggressive enough.
He didn't do enough to kill the protoss 3rd base...this is Idra's ZvP 101...at all cost zerg has to kill the protoss'es 3rd . Forget the attacks on the main...you'll be mostly attacking a ghost town with buildings tanking the damage. At the 18 minute mark is on average when toss mines out his main. If Zerg can block the 3rd at the 18 minute mark, toss is down to 1 base which should be easy win for zerg.
Infesters are AMAZING vs air units...he should have built them.
Cruncher had not been building colossi...this is the green light to go mass hydra. Colossi are the ONLY counter to hydras (storms/archons/mass chargelots are nice but don't cut it). Hydras are also amazing vs stalkers...which Cruncher had lots of.
Where were Mondragon's mineral sink units? Zerglings are amazing vs stalkers (especially when there are no colossi on the field) and are amazing at attacking a 3-4 base toss that is spread too thin. If Dragon isn't going to spend minerals on attacking mineral units...then why get so many drones and why not attack MUCH sooner?
People are saying the phoenix countered the mutas...this is not the case and the descision to make the mutas was actually a good thing. What really did in the Mutas were the cannons and the storms...phoenix mostly avoided direct confrontations and just mopped up what was left of the mutas. Bottom line...mutas had to be more aggressive before blink/storm/ht charging completes and the mutas need to concentrate on the expansions...not the main.
I thought Cruncher did a great job, but his decision to build voids before phoenix was a mistake...had the phoenix been built first they would have had enough energy to on a couple of situations kill additional queens with the help of the voids. Again...best plan is to build about 1 phoenix for each queen you expect to see then mass voids. Phoenix block queens, voids kill queens, voids kill everything else and you win the game.
|
On April 18 2011 06:24 MaXy57 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:21 Tegin wrote:On April 18 2011 06:14 Tracedragon wrote:On April 18 2011 06:07 Tegin wrote:
Pretty sure the better player won today, and that better player was CrunCher. That's why they played a best of 5. Anyone complaining because of the outcome need to realize CrunCher outplayed Mondragon, especially in the final game. It's sad to see no zergs left..maybe they need to pick their games up a bit to contend? So are you implying that all Zerg players are bad? :/ No. I'm saying they need to pick their game up. Kinda like what a pitcher would need to get a final out in the 9th inning, or a basketball player to hit a game winning shot. There are tons of great zerg players, but none of them are "finishing" in TSL3. So true, they really really need to do more than simply just outplaying their opponents (game 2) and get their balls together. No one watches american "sports"
Didnt know people were so aggressively ethnocentric around here.
|
ughh no more zergs and its R8 now... i really wanted morrow to go far^ MC is going to win unless thorzain can defend well.
|
i'm a new fan of mondragon after today's games.
hopefully we see more of him soon. he seems like such a nice guy.
|
Well, I don't see anyone taking down MC for the rest of the TSL.
|
On April 18 2011 06:25 Onos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:21 Tegin wrote:On April 18 2011 06:14 Tracedragon wrote:On April 18 2011 06:07 Tegin wrote:
Pretty sure the better player won today, and that better player was CrunCher. That's why they played a best of 5. Anyone complaining because of the outcome need to realize CrunCher outplayed Mondragon, especially in the final game. It's sad to see no zergs left..maybe they need to pick their games up a bit to contend? So are you implying that all Zerg players are bad? :/ No. I'm saying they need to pick their game up. Kinda like what a pitcher would need to get a final out in the 9th inning, or a basketball player to hit a game winning shot. There are tons of great zerg players, but none of them are "finishing" in TSL3. TSL 3 - No zergs in top 8 MLG dallas - top zerg is Idra at 5 Dreamhack - Idra at 4 GSL world - no zerg in top 4 Yep Zerg (all zerg players) just need to pick up their game.
Well clearly from Mondragon has said, he has and he has acknowledged how he played was poor. Just a few days too late, he seems pretty confident with his new play style. Few days meant the difference between being in the RO8 and being eliminated.
|
On April 18 2011 06:10 dementrio wrote:
In my mind there is absolutely no doubt that the game is lost when protoss gets his third, so my judgement may be clouded, but I can't understand why day9 repeatedly talks about hive and infestors. has there been a game where zerg could win, or just did not lose in an absurdly one-sided fashion, by getting hive or infestors?
There is one Zerg army composition that destorys voidray + colossi deathball and it requires hive. Ultra + baneling + hydra. However, the composition is incredibly difficult to reach, because it has a weak midgame.
Also, if Broodlords are protected underneath by roaches + hydras and are able to get enough broodlings on the field (= no easy blink beneath them & colossi shoot the broodlings first) the zerg is almost unstoppable.
... But you're also right, I can't remember a recent pro level game where that happened.
|
On April 18 2011 05:48 MorroW wrote:
looks like cruncher has been secretly practicing blizzards challenge maps. because he just sent the phoenix for the main with mutas and the voidray immortal to the 3rd base with roaches, you cant explain that
I think it's pretty obvious what the explaination is. He's a smart player who predicted what his opponent would do!
|
On April 18 2011 06:21 MaXy57 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:18 Talin wrote:On April 18 2011 06:16 hmunkey wrote:On April 18 2011 06:14 Kennigit wrote:King of Manner Kennigit says (4:57 PM): you did well ^^ . Everyone on twitter was cheering for you Mondragon says (4:58 PM): nah after the games vs cruncher i found out how to play XD Kennigit says (4:58 PM): hahah Mondragon says (4:58 PM): wouldnt have lost now! ^^ roaches + infestors only are the key to everything Mondragon says (4:58 PM): found out too late taht infestors are the key ! Kennigit says (4:59 PM): protoss death ball is -_- Mondragon says (5:00 PM): yes protoss deathball isnt tough anymore if you make 10 infestors ^^ either infestors + roaches only Kennigit says (5:00 PM): haha Mondragon says (5:00 PM): or just broodlords only + infestors only both are fine but i found out 3 days too late Kennigit says (5:00 PM): ahh ;;; oh well, next time ^^ Mondragon says (5:00 PM): yep yep ----- Take your zerg tears elsewhere So I guess Mondragon will be winning everything now? I mean, he has the secret to beating toss that even IdrA and Ret don't seem to have, right? Implying that Mondragon (when he practices) is an inferior player to IdrA and Ret is hilarious. Especially when it comes to figuring things out. Well, he implied it after seeing the last games. Remember how terribly mondragon played on metalopolis? gee, he sure improved alot after back then, 15 minutes ago
He clearly implied it without having any idea who Mondragon is in the first place (otherwise he was just trolling). Though, you implying that Mondragon played terribly in any game other than the one he got Cannon rushed amounts to just about the same thing.
The guy who first came on Teamliquid a few weeks ago could have assumed IdrA was some random scrub from the games he played against Cruncher following your logic, and don't even get me started with Ret who looked completely lost against Naniwa.
Don't make rash judgments before you know the person you're actually talking about. Otherwise, don't troll. -_-
|
|
|
On April 18 2011 06:23 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:16 Mailing wrote:On April 18 2011 06:14 Kennigit wrote:King of Manner Kennigit says (4:57 PM): you did well ^^ . Everyone on twitter was cheering for you Mondragon says (4:58 PM): nah after the games vs cruncher i found out how to play XD Kennigit says (4:58 PM): hahah Mondragon says (4:58 PM): wouldnt have lost now! ^^ roaches + infestors only are the key to everything Mondragon says (4:58 PM): found out too late taht infestors are the key ! Kennigit says (4:59 PM): protoss death ball is -_- Mondragon says (5:00 PM): yes protoss deathball isnt tough anymore if you make 10 infestors ^^ either infestors + roaches only Kennigit says (5:00 PM): haha Mondragon says (5:00 PM): or just broodlords only + infestors only both are fine but i found out 3 days too late Kennigit says (5:00 PM): ahh ;;; oh well, next time ^^ Mondragon says (5:00 PM): yep yep ----- IdrA said roach/infestor was going to make PvZ easy after 1.3 One week later, and that opinion was drastically gone. Until Mondragon wins with it *shrug* People pay too much attention to individual units and not enough to the entire context behind them. The key is finding a good transition towards them in a way that leaves your opponent particularly vulnerable in one area. Maybe they become hesitant to leave their base buying you extra time, or they overproduce a specific unit. I don't know what it'll be in ZvP but the ZvT example of Broodlords into Ultras is a good start. Mondi cut down on Collosi/VRs and skewed Cruncher's composition towards Stalker/Phoenix but he stayed on mutas.
He stayed muta because Muta > stalker
but once the templars arrive there is no turning back.
What are you gonna do from that point on as Zerg?
U can switch to ultras because you have no upgrades for them and they will get 1-shot by the stalker ball. U cant go back to roach / hydro either.
|
On April 18 2011 06:25 Onos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:21 Tegin wrote:On April 18 2011 06:14 Tracedragon wrote:On April 18 2011 06:07 Tegin wrote:
Pretty sure the better player won today, and that better player was CrunCher. That's why they played a best of 5. Anyone complaining because of the outcome need to realize CrunCher outplayed Mondragon, especially in the final game. It's sad to see no zergs left..maybe they need to pick their games up a bit to contend? So are you implying that all Zerg players are bad? :/ No. I'm saying they need to pick their game up. Kinda like what a pitcher would need to get a final out in the 9th inning, or a basketball player to hit a game winning shot. There are tons of great zerg players, but none of them are "finishing" in TSL3. TSL 3 - No zergs in top 8 MLG dallas - top zerg is Idra at 5 Dreamhack - Idra at 4 GSL world - no zerg in top 4 Yep Zerg (all zerg players) just need to pick up their game.
lol that doesn't actually contradict what he's saying at all. If all the top zerg players don't have the "finishing" touch then obviously they wouldn't do well in tournaments.
Yeah, it's a dumb thing to say, but that just makes a dumb response even worse.
|
United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On April 18 2011 06:25 Onos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:21 Tegin wrote:On April 18 2011 06:14 Tracedragon wrote:On April 18 2011 06:07 Tegin wrote:
Pretty sure the better player won today, and that better player was CrunCher. That's why they played a best of 5. Anyone complaining because of the outcome need to realize CrunCher outplayed Mondragon, especially in the final game. It's sad to see no zergs left..maybe they need to pick their games up a bit to contend? So are you implying that all Zerg players are bad? :/ No. I'm saying they need to pick their game up. Kinda like what a pitcher would need to get a final out in the 9th inning, or a basketball player to hit a game winning shot. There are tons of great zerg players, but none of them are "finishing" in TSL3. TSL 3 - No zergs in top 8 MLG dallas - top zerg is Idra at 5 Dreamhack - Idra at 4 GSL world - no zerg in top 4 Yep Zerg (all zerg players) just need to pick up their game.
IdrA in 7th position at Dallas
|
Mondi went for Mutas because it allowed him to be quite safe from the early air aggression.
If he goes for Infestors then Cruncher can get a 3rd much mroe easily and can make pure Void Ray instaed of having to add in Phoenix. Could he have gone Infestor later in the midgame? Probably, but it's not like it's an insta win. Stalkers are pretty big (a Stalker ball takes up a lot of space) so you can't catch that many with each fungal, and if you don't land consecutive ones then you will just have done damage to the shields. Add to that the fact that Mondi actually did a a lot of harass with his mutas and kept Cruncher running back and forth. With Infestors you can't abuse P's immobility the same way.
On April 18 2011 06:25 Fungal Growth wrote:
Cruncher had not been building colossi...this is the green light to go mass hydra. Colossi are the ONLY counter to hydras (storms/archons/mass chargelots are nice but don't cut it). Hydras are also amazing vs stalkers...which Cruncher had lots of.
Blink Stalkers do surprisingly well against Hydras, and if you overcommit for one second you lose ALL your Hydras.
|
I want to rage but I can´t.... I just feel so empty...
sad face
|
On April 18 2011 06:21 Tegin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:14 Tracedragon wrote:On April 18 2011 06:07 Tegin wrote:
Pretty sure the better player won today, and that better player was CrunCher. That's why they played a best of 5. Anyone complaining because of the outcome need to realize CrunCher outplayed Mondragon, especially in the final game. It's sad to see no zergs left..maybe they need to pick their games up a bit to contend? So are you implying that all Zerg players are bad? :/ No. I'm saying they need to pick their game up. Kinda like what a pitcher would need to get a final out in the 9th inning, or a basketball player to hit a game winning shot. There are tons of great zerg players, but none of them are "finishing" in TSL3.
Wow that's a stretch of an analogy...It's a very different game you don't have 3 separate types of teams in pro sports.
|
On April 18 2011 06:25 Fungal Growth wrote:
Congrats to Cruncher for the win!
Lot's of mistakes by Mondragon though the last game...
Mutas weren't aggressive enough.
He didn't do enough to kill the protoss 3rd base...this is Idra's ZvP 101...at all cost zerg has to kill the protoss'es 3rd . Forget the attacks on the main...you'll be mostly attacking a ghost town with buildings tanking the damage. At the 18 minute mark is on average when toss mines out his main. If Zerg can block the 3rd at the 18 minute mark, toss is down to 1 base which should be easy win for zerg.
Infesters are AMAZING vs air units...he should have built them.
Cruncher had not been building colossi...this is the green light to go mass hydra. Colossi are the ONLY counter to hydras (storms/archons/mass chargelots are nice but don't cut it). Hydras are also amazing vs stalkers...which Cruncher had lots of.
Where were Mondragon's mineral sink units? Zerglings are amazing vs stalkers (especially when there are no colossi on the field) and are amazing at attacking a 3-4 base toss that is spread too thin. If Dragon isn't going to spend minerals on attacking mineral units...then why get so many drones and why not attack MUCH sooner?
People are saying the phoenix countered the mutas...this is not the case and the descision to make the mutas was actually a good thing. What really did in the Mutas were the cannons and the storms...phoenix mostly avoided direct confrontations and just mopped up what was left of the mutas. Bottom line...mutas had to be more aggressive before blink/storm/ht charging completes and the mutas need to concentrate on the expansions...not the main.
I thought Cruncher did a great job, but his decision to build voids before phoenix was a mistake...had the phoenix been built first they would have had enough energy to on a couple of situations kill additional queens with the help of the voids. Again...best plan is to build about 1 phoenix for each queen you expect to see then mass voids. Phoenix block queens, voids kill queens, voids kill everything else and you win the game.
It's pretty useless to make zerglings vs high templar. 1 storm can easily kill 15 supply of lings in an instant.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
