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Its time to enjoy the matches, keep the whining out of this thread. GL HF!
Also, don't reply to the whining and ignore it: have faith in the mods, we read every post and act swiftly. You're making it worse. Enjoy! |
On April 18 2011 06:23 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:16 Mailing wrote:On April 18 2011 06:14 Kennigit wrote:King of Manner Kennigit says (4:57 PM): you did well ^^ . Everyone on twitter was cheering for you Mondragon says (4:58 PM): nah after the games vs cruncher i found out how to play XD Kennigit says (4:58 PM): hahah Mondragon says (4:58 PM): wouldnt have lost now! ^^ roaches + infestors only are the key to everything Mondragon says (4:58 PM): found out too late taht infestors are the key ! Kennigit says (4:59 PM): protoss death ball is -_- Mondragon says (5:00 PM): yes protoss deathball isnt tough anymore if you make 10 infestors ^^ either infestors + roaches only Kennigit says (5:00 PM): haha Mondragon says (5:00 PM): or just broodlords only + infestors only both are fine but i found out 3 days too late Kennigit says (5:00 PM): ahh ;;; oh well, next time ^^ Mondragon says (5:00 PM): yep yep  ----- IdrA said roach/infestor was going to make PvZ easy after 1.3 One week later, and that opinion was drastically gone. Until Mondragon wins with it *shrug* People pay too much attention to individual units and not enough to the entire context behind them. The key is finding a good transition towards them in a way that leaves your opponent particularly vulnerable in one area. Maybe they become hesitant to leave their base buying you extra time, or they overproduce a specific unit. I don't know what it'll be in ZvP but the ZvT example of Broodlords into Ultras is a good example. Mondi cut down on Collosi/VRs and skewed Cruncher's composition towards Stalker/Phoenix but he stayed on mutas.
The problem with this style from what I see in my games, and games that pro's play, is that it's actually not at all difficult for the protoss to keep up with the transitions. Immortals/Colossi are small # units so it's easy to skew your composition back into a mix with immortals/colossi. It's not like TvP where the P needs a high colossi count. 2-4 colossi will work wonders if not dealt with explicitly as will 4-6 immortals. Gateway units are obvious, it's pretty easy to skew that around one way or the other.
Even if you do get behind on the transitions as Protoss there are plenty of ways to buy time given how strong FF, blink stalkers, DTs, and cannons are at holding off or preventing Zerg aggression. The same windows that are there in something like ZvT just don't seem to be there in ZvP.
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On April 18 2011 06:17 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:16 hmunkey wrote:On April 18 2011 06:14 Kennigit wrote:King of Manner Kennigit says (4:57 PM): you did well ^^ . Everyone on twitter was cheering for you Mondragon says (4:58 PM): nah after the games vs cruncher i found out how to play XD Kennigit says (4:58 PM): hahah Mondragon says (4:58 PM): wouldnt have lost now! ^^ roaches + infestors only are the key to everything Mondragon says (4:58 PM): found out too late taht infestors are the key ! Kennigit says (4:59 PM): protoss death ball is -_- Mondragon says (5:00 PM): yes protoss deathball isnt tough anymore if you make 10 infestors ^^ either infestors + roaches only Kennigit says (5:00 PM): haha Mondragon says (5:00 PM): or just broodlords only + infestors only both are fine but i found out 3 days too late Kennigit says (5:00 PM): ahh ;;; oh well, next time ^^ Mondragon says (5:00 PM): yep yep ----- Take your zerg tears elsewhere So I guess Mondragon will be winning everything now? I mean, he has the secret to beating toss that even IdrA and Ret don't seem to have, right? Take your crap somewhere else. Mondi FIGHTING!@ <3 <3. Hope this means he will keep playing sc2.
Hopefully Mondragon'll beat Cruncher next time~
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NA: 1
KR: 2
EU: 5
But I still need a hug cause of mondragon
t_t
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On April 18 2011 06:29 Humbuuzio wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:25 Fungal Growth wrote:
Congrats to Cruncher for the win!
Lot's of mistakes by Mondragon though the last game...
Mutas weren't aggressive enough.
He didn't do enough to kill the protoss 3rd base...this is Idra's ZvP 101...at all cost zerg has to kill the protoss'es 3rd . Forget the attacks on the main...you'll be mostly attacking a ghost town with buildings tanking the damage. At the 18 minute mark is on average when toss mines out his main. If Zerg can block the 3rd at the 18 minute mark, toss is down to 1 base which should be easy win for zerg.
Infesters are AMAZING vs air units...he should have built them.
Cruncher had not been building colossi...this is the green light to go mass hydra. Colossi are the ONLY counter to hydras (storms/archons/mass chargelots are nice but don't cut it). Hydras are also amazing vs stalkers...which Cruncher had lots of.
Where were Mondragon's mineral sink units? Zerglings are amazing vs stalkers (especially when there are no colossi on the field) and are amazing at attacking a 3-4 base toss that is spread too thin. If Dragon isn't going to spend minerals on attacking mineral units...then why get so many drones and why not attack MUCH sooner?
People are saying the phoenix countered the mutas...this is not the case and the descision to make the mutas was actually a good thing. What really did in the Mutas were the cannons and the storms...phoenix mostly avoided direct confrontations and just mopped up what was left of the mutas. Bottom line...mutas had to be more aggressive before blink/storm/ht charging completes and the mutas need to concentrate on the expansions...not the main.
I thought Cruncher did a great job, but his decision to build voids before phoenix was a mistake...had the phoenix been built first they would have had enough energy to on a couple of situations kill additional queens with the help of the voids. Again...best plan is to build about 1 phoenix for each queen you expect to see then mass voids. Phoenix block queens, voids kill queens, voids kill everything else and you win the game. It's pretty useless to make zerglings vs high templar. 1 storm can easily kill 15 supply of lings in an instant.
And your own army if it is surrounded
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On April 18 2011 06:24 entropius wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:21 Tegin wrote:On April 18 2011 06:14 Tracedragon wrote:On April 18 2011 06:07 Tegin wrote:
Pretty sure the better player won today, and that better player was CrunCher. That's why they played a best of 5. Anyone complaining because of the outcome need to realize CrunCher outplayed Mondragon, especially in the final game. It's sad to see no zergs left..maybe they need to pick their games up a bit to contend? So are you implying that all Zerg players are bad? :/ No. I'm saying they need to pick their game up. Kinda like what a pitcher would need to get a final out in the 9th inning, or a basketball player to hit a game winning shot. There are tons of great zerg players, but none of them are "finishing" in TSL3. So here's a baseball analogy. Suppose in baseball all players had to bat from the same side of the plate, and then suppose there is a season of baseball where left-handed batters have a league-wide batting average of .210, while right-handed batters have a league-wide batting average of .275, over all teams in the Major Leagues, over the whole ~150 game season. Should you say "Those lefties really need to step up their game"?
What a terrible analogy, which I'm hoping was the point, but I'll run with it regardless. If lefties were indeed forced to bat right handed, then yes, they need to adapt to the situation they're given because fair or not, results are what matter, not circumstances.
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On April 18 2011 06:23 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:16 Mailing wrote:On April 18 2011 06:14 Kennigit wrote:King of Manner Kennigit says (4:57 PM): you did well ^^ . Everyone on twitter was cheering for you Mondragon says (4:58 PM): nah after the games vs cruncher i found out how to play XD Kennigit says (4:58 PM): hahah Mondragon says (4:58 PM): wouldnt have lost now! ^^ roaches + infestors only are the key to everything Mondragon says (4:58 PM): found out too late taht infestors are the key ! Kennigit says (4:59 PM): protoss death ball is -_- Mondragon says (5:00 PM): yes protoss deathball isnt tough anymore if you make 10 infestors ^^ either infestors + roaches only Kennigit says (5:00 PM): haha Mondragon says (5:00 PM): or just broodlords only + infestors only both are fine but i found out 3 days too late Kennigit says (5:00 PM): ahh ;;; oh well, next time ^^ Mondragon says (5:00 PM): yep yep ----- IdrA said roach/infestor was going to make PvZ easy after 1.3 One week later, and that opinion was drastically gone. Until Mondragon wins with it *shrug* People pay too much attention to individual units and not enough to the entire context behind them. The key is finding a good transition towards them in a way that leaves your opponent particularly vulnerable in one area. Maybe they become hesitant to leave their base buying you extra time, or they overproduce a specific unit. I don't know what it'll be in ZvP but the ZvT example of Broodlords into Ultras is a good example. Mondi cut down on Collosi/VRs and skewed Cruncher's composition towards Stalker/Phoenix but he stayed on mutas.
But as Zerg being a reactionary race, don't you NEED to pay attention to the "x counters y"
style?
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This game is pretty broken. PRETTY.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On April 18 2011 06:25 Fungal Growth wrote:Where were Mondragon's mineral sink units?
They were Spine Crawlers, and they were what kept him alive for that long.
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On April 18 2011 06:29 Tracedragon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:17 Numy wrote:On April 18 2011 06:16 hmunkey wrote:On April 18 2011 06:14 Kennigit wrote:King of Manner Kennigit says (4:57 PM): you did well ^^ . Everyone on twitter was cheering for you Mondragon says (4:58 PM): nah after the games vs cruncher i found out how to play XD Kennigit says (4:58 PM): hahah Mondragon says (4:58 PM): wouldnt have lost now! ^^ roaches + infestors only are the key to everything Mondragon says (4:58 PM): found out too late taht infestors are the key ! Kennigit says (4:59 PM): protoss death ball is -_- Mondragon says (5:00 PM): yes protoss deathball isnt tough anymore if you make 10 infestors ^^ either infestors + roaches only Kennigit says (5:00 PM): haha Mondragon says (5:00 PM): or just broodlords only + infestors only both are fine but i found out 3 days too late Kennigit says (5:00 PM): ahh ;;; oh well, next time ^^ Mondragon says (5:00 PM): yep yep ----- Take your zerg tears elsewhere So I guess Mondragon will be winning everything now? I mean, he has the secret to beating toss that even IdrA and Ret don't seem to have, right? Take your crap somewhere else. Mondi FIGHTING!@ <3 <3. Hope this means he will keep playing sc2. Hopefully Mondragon'll beat Cruncher next time~
What you mean hopefully. Mondie will crush his soul then put it back together and say sorry!
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On April 18 2011 06:25 Onos wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:21 Tegin wrote:On April 18 2011 06:14 Tracedragon wrote:On April 18 2011 06:07 Tegin wrote:
Pretty sure the better player won today, and that better player was CrunCher. That's why they played a best of 5. Anyone complaining because of the outcome need to realize CrunCher outplayed Mondragon, especially in the final game. It's sad to see no zergs left..maybe they need to pick their games up a bit to contend? So are you implying that all Zerg players are bad? :/ No. I'm saying they need to pick their game up. Kinda like what a pitcher would need to get a final out in the 9th inning, or a basketball player to hit a game winning shot. There are tons of great zerg players, but none of them are "finishing" in TSL3. TSL 3 - No zergs in top 8 MLG dallas - top zerg is Idra at 5 Dreamhack - Idra at 4 GSL world - no zerg in top 4 Yep Zerg (all zerg players) just need to pick up their game.
Every tournament you listed was with the last month or so. The game has been out for almost a year.
4 Tournaments out of how many in the past year? The game is always and will forever sway in each races favor. Right now its T and P and more so P right now. That wasnt always the case. If you actually do some research you'll see similar posts by Protoss players From GSL season 1-2. It wasn't till MC won that it started to change. what are we on GSL 5 now? DreamHack 2? 2 seasons of MLG?
Do you really want it to get to the point where going into a tournament you already know the odds will always be 3-2 in favor of Z in PvZ, 3-1 in TvP?
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On April 18 2011 06:22 mordk wrote:Well, time for some predictions  MC 3-1  ThorZaINAdelscott 0-3 KasBoxeR 3-2 HasuObsNaNiwa 3-0 CrunCherMC will probably lose one game being caught a little off guard by thorzain's style. But he'll catch up. Training with Jinro is going to serve him well. Kas is going to roll adelscott. He'll play well in game one but lose anyway and then tilt and make horrible mistakes and lose terribly. Happens all the time. BoxeR vs Hasuobs is probably the most interesting Ro8 matchup. Hard to predict. I think hasuobs' PvT ain't too good, while BoxeR's TvP is so patient and solid. I think lag might screw BoxeR up a bit, 3-2 is the correct prediction imo. Naniwa is going to crush cruncher so hard it will make him look bronze league. He's on a whole different level of play. I give cruncher absolutely 0% chances he'll win.
Some of Cruncher's PvP results: 2-0 vs Kiwikaki, 2-0 vs oGsInca. I consider Naniwa the favorite as well, but to say Cruncher has absolutely no chance to win is simply ignorant.
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On April 18 2011 06:18 OrangeSoda wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:12 SkelA wrote:
Seriosly Im so pissed because I feel like all top zerg player are stupid nobrainers like their race.... HELLO infestor counter blink stalkers, mass phoenix voidrays and are awesome against everything toss have(ok not against HT). Why noone makes em !?!?!
game 1 = Cruncher played terrible , Mondi played awesome.
game 2 = Cruncher played good wining because of imba map and invincible combo, Mondi played awesome but its just not enough.
game 3 = Cruncher wins with cheese thats easy to defend, Mondi reacts in the worst possible way.
game 4 = Both playing awesome but Cruncher was so cost effective that wins even with Mondi massive eco advantage. Overall Cruncher is the superior player today ( or superior race?? )
Cruncher played decent today if we dont count game 1. Clearly deserved this win. GG's !! because all the people that happen to play zerg are nobrainers
Yep preety much. Do you see any zerg wining any big tournaments or going even deep into tournaments lately? Well I havent.
Obviosly they are doing something wrong or zvp is imbalanced. I dont think zvp is imbalanced so they are playing zvp the wrong way but I havent even played SC2 so I might be wrong. Zergs need to pick up their game and start experimenting with other styles that doesnt revolve just on mass roach hydra corruptors.
The one zerg I was impressed is Spanishwa. That guy is awesome.
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I was pretty depressed after the Mondragon vs Cruncher series but White-ra's stream made me happy again
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I think the issue is maps more than actual game balance. It's too easy to split many of the maps and that favors protoss far more than it does zerg.
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Why Zerg hardly ever builds infestors is beyond me. And when they do they a-move them into a deathball.
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Do you really want it to get to the point where going into a tournament you already know the odds will always be 3-2 in favor of Z in PvZ, 3-1 in TvP?
I want it to get to the point where the odds are even.
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MONDRAGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOnnnnnnnn I'm so sad that you lost!
Really entertaining games, I'm many impress ^^
I'm already buying my popcorn for Nani vs Cruncher.... mmmmmm...
Someone is going to get hurt and it's not going to be the current MLG champ ^_^
Please 4gate 3 times in a row MC style.
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On April 18 2011 06:30 gnutz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:29 Humbuuzio wrote:On April 18 2011 06:25 Fungal Growth wrote:
Congrats to Cruncher for the win!
Lot's of mistakes by Mondragon though the last game...
Mutas weren't aggressive enough.
He didn't do enough to kill the protoss 3rd base...this is Idra's ZvP 101...at all cost zerg has to kill the protoss'es 3rd . Forget the attacks on the main...you'll be mostly attacking a ghost town with buildings tanking the damage. At the 18 minute mark is on average when toss mines out his main. If Zerg can block the 3rd at the 18 minute mark, toss is down to 1 base which should be easy win for zerg.
Infesters are AMAZING vs air units...he should have built them.
Cruncher had not been building colossi...this is the green light to go mass hydra. Colossi are the ONLY counter to hydras (storms/archons/mass chargelots are nice but don't cut it). Hydras are also amazing vs stalkers...which Cruncher had lots of.
Where were Mondragon's mineral sink units? Zerglings are amazing vs stalkers (especially when there are no colossi on the field) and are amazing at attacking a 3-4 base toss that is spread too thin. If Dragon isn't going to spend minerals on attacking mineral units...then why get so many drones and why not attack MUCH sooner?
People are saying the phoenix countered the mutas...this is not the case and the descision to make the mutas was actually a good thing. What really did in the Mutas were the cannons and the storms...phoenix mostly avoided direct confrontations and just mopped up what was left of the mutas. Bottom line...mutas had to be more aggressive before blink/storm/ht charging completes and the mutas need to concentrate on the expansions...not the main.
I thought Cruncher did a great job, but his decision to build voids before phoenix was a mistake...had the phoenix been built first they would have had enough energy to on a couple of situations kill additional queens with the help of the voids. Again...best plan is to build about 1 phoenix for each queen you expect to see then mass voids. Phoenix block queens, voids kill queens, voids kill everything else and you win the game. It's pretty useless to make zerglings vs high templar. 1 storm can easily kill 15 supply of lings in an instant. And your own army if it is surrounded
Well, mass lings usually clump up pretty nicely for storm and a few lings never did anything vs a protoss ball. You don't have to storm your own units, just storm around them.
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On April 18 2011 06:30 DonaldLee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:24 entropius wrote:On April 18 2011 06:21 Tegin wrote:On April 18 2011 06:14 Tracedragon wrote:On April 18 2011 06:07 Tegin wrote:
Pretty sure the better player won today, and that better player was CrunCher. That's why they played a best of 5. Anyone complaining because of the outcome need to realize CrunCher outplayed Mondragon, especially in the final game. It's sad to see no zergs left..maybe they need to pick their games up a bit to contend? So are you implying that all Zerg players are bad? :/ No. I'm saying they need to pick their game up. Kinda like what a pitcher would need to get a final out in the 9th inning, or a basketball player to hit a game winning shot. There are tons of great zerg players, but none of them are "finishing" in TSL3. So here's a baseball analogy. Suppose in baseball all players had to bat from the same side of the plate, and then suppose there is a season of baseball where left-handed batters have a league-wide batting average of .210, while right-handed batters have a league-wide batting average of .275, over all teams in the Major Leagues, over the whole ~150 game season. Should you say "Those lefties really need to step up their game"? What a terrible analogy, which I'm hoping was the point, but I'll run with it regardless. If lefties were indeed forced to bat right handed, then yes, they need to adapt to the situation they're given because fair or not, results are what matter, not circumstances.
No....you'd ruin the game and force every left handed hitter out of the league and left handed pitchers would still be there. It would be beyond stupid.
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On April 18 2011 06:32 Sky Net wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2011 06:22 mordk wrote:Well, time for some predictions MC 3-1 ThorZaINAdelscott 0-3 KasBoxeR 3-2 HasuObsNaNiwa 3-0 CrunCherMC will probably lose one game being caught a little off guard by thorzain's style. But he'll catch up. Training with Jinro is going to serve him well. Kas is going to roll adelscott. He'll play well in game one but lose anyway and then tilt and make horrible mistakes and lose terribly. Happens all the time. BoxeR vs Hasuobs is probably the most interesting Ro8 matchup. Hard to predict. I think hasuobs' PvT ain't too good, while BoxeR's TvP is so patient and solid. I think lag might screw BoxeR up a bit, 3-2 is the correct prediction imo. Naniwa is going to crush cruncher so hard it will make him look bronze league. He's on a whole different level of play. I give cruncher absolutely 0% chances he'll win. Some of Cruncher's PvP results: 2-0 vs Kiwikaki, 2-0 vs oGsInca. I consider Naniwa the favorite as well, but to say Cruncher has absolutely no chance to win is simply ignorant.
I didn't ever say Cruncher's PvP was bad. I don't know where you read that. I'm pretty confident in naniwa's ability in PvP, he's a level above cruncher.
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EPT
