EPTWell written about the games and why MC play the way he did.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=211978
Dreamhack Invitational - Page 593
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deerpark87
760 Posts
Well written about the games and why MC play the way he did. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=211978 | ||
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Alver
United States177 Posts
id seriously like someone to ask jinro or huk in an interview to name some players with better raw micro ability than mc. if they say someone has better, ill bet its a korean despite the fact that jinro/huk play lots of non korean tournaments and are american/european. white-ra is absolutely my favorite european player and has been since beta (arguably sc1 too but i didint know much about non koreans in sc1) but his micro is worse than mcs, almost every players micro is, thats why mc wins. | ||
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usethis2
2164 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:40 cheesemaster wrote: Seems like alot of people hating on MC, lol hes one of the best players in the world your going to have to get used to him winning  Well it seems like the opposite is true. Didn't know about this tourney and joined the party late but skimping through the thread there are only a few crying cheese and the vast majority of people are defending MC, it seems. Maybe you can count the posts (for- and against- MC)? It's amazing how some (a lot of, actually) people get so worked up in arms for a minority criticism. I didn't watch the games so I can't comment on them but I can easily imagine what'd have happened in MC's games. (which is why I don't watch his games, except for his losses :D ) Great player, for sure. Keep it going, guys.  | ||
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PITN
New Zealand158 Posts
Where may I find these vods :O keen | ||
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PITN
New Zealand158 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:47 Jiddra wrote: They are already up, on justin.tv/dreamhacktv Ty dude | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:43 hugman wrote: No, they're hating on a super anti-climactic deciding game. If MC had cheesed in G3 people wouldn't have complained as much, even if he took the series, I promise you. Exactly, in SC2 it always feels like the show is spoiled. Amazing 1st game between IdrA & MC, pathetic cheese afterwards. White-Ra winning with convincing play, robo, expand, then loosing with 3x 6min game in a row. IdrA loosing to cruncher's 6 gate after IdrA's decisiv play in game 2. Everything is like you could reach epicness, but it is still nowhere to be found. | ||
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mordk
Chile8385 Posts
1.- Yes, it is kinda dissapointing from a "spectacularity" PoV, but it doens't really matter. It is a competitive scenario, and as such, the best player pulled off the best performance and won, it's that simple. 2.- MC's choice to go for a 2-proxy gate in game 5 is just genius. He totally and completely mindfucked White-Ra, by doing something he really wasn't expecting. It's like when MC lost against ryung or MMA (Can't remember) in the GSTL2, game in which the winner used a really cheesy banshee all in and MC suddenly just lost. It's valid, it's solid, it's smart, and it won the game 3.- Saying MC's build wasn't risky is ridiculous. If white-ra actually scouted, he probably would have won the game right there. Being cheese-proof is a very important part of starcraft. 4.- In this tournament, MC has shown he can 4-gate, cheese, early pressure, play a defensive mid-game, macro up, go into late game, all while winning with different builds and strategies. Not seeing this is being blind. 5.- People need to stop seeing sets in series as individual games, and start putting the games in context. It's not the same to cheese in a Bo1, in a Bo3, or in a Bo5. It's not the same to cheese in the finals of DH invitational for 15k, than to cheese in ladder play all the time. If you look at the series as a whole, how each player plays, how things developed, then that proxy gate cheese makes A TON of sense, and comes off as a really solid strategic decision. Great play by MC throughout the day. White-ra put up quite the fight as well. Great event in general, all aspects. Overall, great day for SC2 and e-sports  | ||
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loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
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legaton
France1763 Posts
On April 13 2011 03:58 legaton wrote: I hope to see three 4gates from MC. Frankly, if you can't defend a 4gate as a protoss, you deserve to lose. Slightly disappointed by MC. What's up with the gimmicky builds in Game 1 and 2? He should have 4gated since the beginning as he has the best micro in the world. He had to use risky mind games in game 5 to win. Next time, don't think about the whiners, just 4 gate. | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:47 deerpark87 wrote: Please Please read this blog. All you MC haters, cheese haters, WhiteRa's lovers: Well written about the games and why MC play the way he did. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=211978 Good read.Don't forget "faggot" The haters are just silly and should all be permabanned. Course they'll just re-register cuz TL needs to screen and delay LR posting for like a month. | ||
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doffe
Sweden636 Posts
The only thing I can see to "save" pvp (lategame pvp is pretty booring aswell tbh) earlygame is to somehow alter warpin. One way is to make the tech higher tier but that would probably ruin P in other MUs. Another way to solve it would be to make warptech in two tiers, tier one lets you warp in close to an own nexus, tier 2 (a free tech gained at f.ex. TC) lets you warp in at pylons. Thats some kind of solution to the rushing. However, ive seen few PvPs going to 2base that is not decided by who has the most collosi. Although to be completly honest I dont really watch PvPs much anymore cause of the MU being as it is. ZvZ and TvT are soooo much better atm and it is ALL cause of warpin removing defenders advantage. | ||
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teekesselchen
Germany886 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:48 Alver wrote: i dont see how anyone can fault mc's unit control. the reason he does so many all ins are because his game sence and micro are better than other players. id seriously like someone to ask jinro or huk in an interview to name some players with better raw micro ability than mc. if they say someone has better, ill bet its a korean despite the fact that jinro/huk play lots of non korean tournaments and are american/european. white-ra is absolutely my favorite european player and has been since beta (arguably sc1 too but i didint know much about non koreans in sc1) but his micro is worse than mcs, almost every players micro is, thats why mc wins. Mainly MC loves to take initiative, one way or the other. Not going for a build made to respond to something (exept when some random Zergs tries a six-pool, lol), but going for builds that set the game pace. Super fast expansion, super aggressive play, super fast tech for a timing. With each of these he forces a response. One can't just sit around on a delay expand while he goes one-gate-expand. One can't play freely when he turns up the aggression to a maximum right away. One can't choose any tactic when there's a super fast tech for him, aiming for a timing window at which you better are damn well prepared. I actually think the main ressource connected to this is confidence in the own skills. Only few players seem to play a pace-setting style out of logical consideration (TLO does, for example, because this opens a room for him where he can easily adjust his mechanics, which are not good enough for "normal" gameplay). The others would be people like MC and July who just seem to be very confident in their skills so they are not afraid of setting all of their fate into a single situation. they don't think "Oh I need a backup plan because I might missmicro". | ||
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MCMXVI
Norway1193 Posts
On April 13 2011 05:47 Arpe wrote: To Hot_Bid and all you other well educated SC fans. Im a casual viewer. I watch some GSL, maybe TSL if I find the time. I dont play SC2 at all actually, even though I did play for a few months when it was released. I feel like im a good example of a "noobish casual viewer" and part of a crowd that the E-sport and SC2 scene really wants to get more viewers from. Now I do understand that for you that final game was really smart and all, but for me that didnt happen. And if SC2 want to make it bigtime I think they/we/production/casters need to find ways to make cheese like that feel just as epic as a 40min slugfest. I agree that it was a bit anti-climactic when White-Ra scouted late, and to the wrong base. Had he scouted correctly in the first place (they can only spawn cross positions on the TSL shakuras) it would've made for a much more interesting last game I believe, but never the less, the finals was pretty exciting, with two of the biggest SC2 profiles to date. | ||
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Zzoram
Canada7115 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:51 loveeholicce wrote: There's a difference between being disappointed in the games and being disappointed in the player. I was disappointed by the last game, and in general I dislike watching MC because I dislike the abusive, all in style he employs in the vast majority of his games. That being said, I have nothing against MC himself. He tries to win and he picks strategies that play to his strengths (his micro) and cloud his *relative* weaknesses (his management). There's nothing wrong with that so theres really no reason to blame MC or hate on him but it still doesn't mean I don't find his games boring, stupid, and anti climatic, Isn't that what being a good player is about? Abusing your opponent's weakness? How would it be better if players avoided exploiting each other's early game build/control mistakes to drag out games? Then they might as well be match fixing if they're not playing to win. If you scout your opponent doing an economic cheese, do you not respond by busting him? Why should you let him macro up if you can just kill him? | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:52 legaton wrote: Slightly disappointed by MC. What's up with the gimmicky builds in Game 1 and 2? He should have 4gated since the beginning as he has the best micro in the world. He had to use risky mind games in game 5 to win. Next time, don't think about the whiners, just 4 gate. He is trying to give us something else. You don't think the best toss player in the world doesnt hate 4gate too? He's probably done it 1000 times... IN TSL he never 4 gated until WhiteRA did. | ||
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Theoriginalrod
101 Posts
Thanks I was looking for them also | ||
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tdt
United States3179 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:53 doffe wrote: what people do not realize is that 4gate != cheese. 4gating is a bit special since one of few ways to stop a 4gate is by 4gating urself thats why PvP is as it is. Is it booring? Yes I think so. Can you blame the players? No, absolutely not. The only thing I can see to "save" pvp (lategame pvp is pretty booring aswell tbh) earlygame is to somehow alter warpin. One way is to make the tech higher tier but that would probably ruin P in other MUs. Another way to solve it would be to make warptech in two tiers, tier one lets you warp in close to an own nexus, tier 2 (a free tech gained at f.ex. TC) lets you warp in at pylons. Thats some kind of solution to the rushing. However, ive seen few PvPs going to 2base that is not decided by who has the most collosi. Although to be completly honest I dont really watch PvPs much anymore cause of the MU being as it is. ZvZ and TvT are soooo much better atm and it is ALL cause of warpin removing defenders advantage. MC can hold 4 gate with 3 gate robo like in TSL but that's a defensive move and that's not his style so much who loves the initiative, map control, and be in players face. It's also his downfall sometimes...too few units..too aggressive like with MKP. | ||
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teekesselchen
Germany886 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:56 tdt wrote: He is trying to give us something else. You don't think the best toss player in the world doesnt hate 4gate too? He's probably done it 1000 times... IN TSL he never 4 gated until WhiteRA did. I don't think that he'ld aim for other builds just for the sake of a change. He probably was perfectly fine with these builds in Korea and now faced different tactics, often happens that playstyles are just that different. However, making PvP more flexible is the job of Blizzard imo. The current situation of there beeing just a handful viable tactics and super quickly decided matches just seems too unescapeable for players to change it by new tactics. | ||
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SpaceYeti
United States723 Posts
On April 13 2011 04:50 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: Incorrect. Sports should be played to win, hence there being a shitton of sports not on your main stream television because they are not all enjoyable to watch, but they are still enjoyable to play. There are only a dozen or so major sports on television whereas there are hundreds maybe thousands of sports in the world. If you are not entertained by strategy games where people play to win then so be it. Don't come up with an imaginary statement of fact to justify your own opinions. Maybe you just shouldn't watch Esports if you have zero appreciation for the best strategies winning just because it doesn't involve 200 units with shiny graphics. What I say today was a battle of minds and MC clearly came ahead by being the most unpredictable and well rounded player. As such I'm impressed and I don't need to see 5 games of colossus wars for that to be the case. Holy shit, exactly. People forget that it's a Bo5 for a reason. Cheese is every bit a part of the game as 4-gate, or 3-gate expand into Colossi/Gateway, or any other strategy you want to employ. oGsMC won by exploiting a perceived weakness and it paid off. Personally, I think PvP is actually really interesting to watch because it so often comes down to micro and getting little advantages here or there. The subtlety of the matchup is what makes it suspenseful. Like Nazgul said, I'm more than happy that this didn't turn out to be 5 games of colossus wars. Each match was suspenseful and exciting. Overall, Dreamhack was AMAZING! Keep up the good work to everyone involved. | ||
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doffe
Sweden636 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:54 Zzoram wrote: Isn't that what being a good player is about? Abusing your opponent's weakness? How would it be better if players avoided exploiting each other's early game build/control mistakes to drag out games? Then they might as well be match fixing if they're not playing to win. If you scout your opponent doing an economic cheese, do you not respond by busting him? Why should you let him macro up if you can just kill him? Exactly, its intresting how alot of people do not realize this. I play mostly zerg and as an example if I hatch first in ZvP, see him going an early nexus as a response W/O a forge I punish that by massing roach/ling. This often results in QQing and whining about my all in but its just a reaction to a weakness. I myself prefer the macrogame but I am not going to not take an advantage where I see one up for grabs. If you see a 1rax CC as a toss with only one bunker would you not 4gate (or a different all in) to take your free win? The game is actually about winning so.. | ||
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