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On April 13 2011 06:54 Zzoram wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 06:51 loveeholicce wrote:
There's a difference between being disappointed in the games and being disappointed in the player. I was disappointed by the last game, and in general I dislike watching MC because I dislike the abusive, all in style he employs in the vast majority of his games. That being said, I have nothing against MC himself. He tries to win and he picks strategies that play to his strengths (his micro) and cloud his *relative* weaknesses (his management). There's nothing wrong with that so theres really no reason to blame MC or hate on him but it still doesn't mean I don't find his games boring, stupid, and anti climatic, Isn't that what being a good player is about? Abusing your opponent's weakness? How would it be better if players avoided exploiting each other's early game build/control mistakes to drag out games? Then they might as well be match fixing if they're not playing to win. If you scout your opponent doing an economic cheese, do you not respond by busting him? Why should you let him macro up if you can just kill him?
Abusive as in abusing how ridiculously good warpgate all ins are.
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On April 13 2011 07:00 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 06:53 doffe wrote:
what people do not realize is that 4gate != cheese. 4gating is a bit special since one of few ways to stop a 4gate is by 4gating urself thats why PvP is as it is. Is it booring? Yes I think so. Can you blame the players? No, absolutely not.
The only thing I can see to "save" pvp (lategame pvp is pretty booring aswell tbh) earlygame is to somehow alter warpin. One way is to make the tech higher tier but that would probably ruin P in other MUs. Another way to solve it would be to make warptech in two tiers, tier one lets you warp in close to an own nexus, tier 2 (a free tech gained at f.ex. TC) lets you warp in at pylons. Thats some kind of solution to the rushing.
However, ive seen few PvPs going to 2base that is not decided by who has the most collosi. Although to be completly honest I dont really watch PvPs much anymore cause of the MU being as it is. ZvZ and TvT are soooo much better atm and it is ALL cause of warpin removing defenders advantage. MC can hold 4 gate with 3 gate robo like in TSL but that's a defensive move and that's not his style so much who loves the initiative, map control, and be in players face. It's also his downfall sometimes...too few units..too aggressive like with MKP.
Certinly other builds then 4gating is doable to hold a 4gate but they are more risky. The safe way to hold a 4gate is to 4gate yourself.
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On April 12 2011 23:25 nkr wrote:german engineering
lol
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The only Korean that doesn't get crap for cheesing is Boxer.
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On April 13 2011 07:03 doffe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:00 tdt wrote:On April 13 2011 06:53 doffe wrote:
what people do not realize is that 4gate != cheese. 4gating is a bit special since one of few ways to stop a 4gate is by 4gating urself thats why PvP is as it is. Is it booring? Yes I think so. Can you blame the players? No, absolutely not.
The only thing I can see to "save" pvp (lategame pvp is pretty booring aswell tbh) earlygame is to somehow alter warpin. One way is to make the tech higher tier but that would probably ruin P in other MUs. Another way to solve it would be to make warptech in two tiers, tier one lets you warp in close to an own nexus, tier 2 (a free tech gained at f.ex. TC) lets you warp in at pylons. Thats some kind of solution to the rushing.
However, ive seen few PvPs going to 2base that is not decided by who has the most collosi. Although to be completly honest I dont really watch PvPs much anymore cause of the MU being as it is. ZvZ and TvT are soooo much better atm and it is ALL cause of warpin removing defenders advantage. MC can hold 4 gate with 3 gate robo like in TSL but that's a defensive move and that's not his style so much who loves the initiative, map control, and be in players face. It's also his downfall sometimes...too few units..too aggressive like with MKP. Certinly other builds then 4gating is doable to hold a 4gate but they are more risky. The safe way to hold a 4gate is to 4gate yourself.
4gate against 4gate is not safe. It's a safe way to lose if you're worse than the other guy. And a safe way to win if you're better. And a coinflip if you're the same.
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This was really an awesome tournament which was very well organised. The entertainment value of this was just so huge I can't wait for more future dreamhack events. Unfortunately though it feels like all this epicness is not capable of fully manifesting itself because of all the hate, balance discussions and eliteism in this thread.
Congratulations to MC on winning this awesome tournament, I just hope Huk and Jinro will be able to make it a bit further next time ; )
eSports fighting!
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wow, I just watched the MC vs. Idra game... Pretty bad commentating in my oppinion... MC wasn't behind at all. It was a tense game but not onesided at all... So MCs attack wasn't a comeback...
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On April 13 2011 07:11 Gnax wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:03 doffe wrote:On April 13 2011 07:00 tdt wrote:On April 13 2011 06:53 doffe wrote:
what people do not realize is that 4gate != cheese. 4gating is a bit special since one of few ways to stop a 4gate is by 4gating urself thats why PvP is as it is. Is it booring? Yes I think so. Can you blame the players? No, absolutely not.
The only thing I can see to "save" pvp (lategame pvp is pretty booring aswell tbh) earlygame is to somehow alter warpin. One way is to make the tech higher tier but that would probably ruin P in other MUs. Another way to solve it would be to make warptech in two tiers, tier one lets you warp in close to an own nexus, tier 2 (a free tech gained at f.ex. TC) lets you warp in at pylons. Thats some kind of solution to the rushing.
However, ive seen few PvPs going to 2base that is not decided by who has the most collosi. Although to be completly honest I dont really watch PvPs much anymore cause of the MU being as it is. ZvZ and TvT are soooo much better atm and it is ALL cause of warpin removing defenders advantage. MC can hold 4 gate with 3 gate robo like in TSL but that's a defensive move and that's not his style so much who loves the initiative, map control, and be in players face. It's also his downfall sometimes...too few units..too aggressive like with MKP. Certinly other builds then 4gating is doable to hold a 4gate but they are more risky. The safe way to hold a 4gate is to 4gate yourself. 4gate against 4gate is not safe. It's a safe way to lose if you're worse than the other guy. And a safe way to win if you're better. And a coinflip if you're the same.
4gate vs 4gate is safe for MC because he's almost always better than the other guy. That's why White-Ra avoided it, he knew MC had better control so he tried to compensate by playing economically risky, taking an expansion or teching faster and skipping his first zealot. MC has a "good brain" because he saw what White-Ra did for 4 games in a row and did the perfect counter to it in game 5.
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Are the replays released?
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On April 13 2011 04:50 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 04:44 pak150 wrote:
Have you forgotten that by definition sports should be entertaining to watch? Unless you're an uber fan, that kind of stuff (and frankly, PvP in general) is not entertaining. Incorrect. Sports should be played to win, hence there being a shitton of sports not on your main stream television because they are not all enjoyable to watch, but they are still enjoyable to play. There are only a dozen or so major sports on television whereas there are hundreds maybe thousands of sports in the world. If you are not entertained by strategy games where people play to win then so be it. Don't come up with an imaginary statement of fact to justify your own opinions. Maybe you just shouldn't watch Esports if you have zero appreciation for the best strategies winning just because it doesn't involve 200 units with shiny graphics. What I say today was a battle of minds and MC clearly came ahead by being the most unpredictable and well rounded player. As such I'm impressed and I don't need to see 5 games of colossus wars for that to be the case.
Now of course the players are not to blame, but Blizzards declared goal was to deliver a great eSports game for both the players and spectators.
As this, it's pretty boarderline with PvP. Tactical variation is low, because there is few stimulus for the players to play something else than three or four tactics which mostly are rather similar. The variation of scenarios resulting from these tactics is also incredibly low, mostly one player gains a small edge and wins the game right away.
As a player I do not dislike PvP that much, the micro and decisionmaking can still be interesting. But as a spectator it delivers so few new things and so much repetition that it really isn't that interesting. Of course I am still amazed by some players' micro, of course there still is some interesting decisionmaking and sometimes even crazy builds. But "the average PvP" is just the most boring matchup. A just standard map of PvZ or TvP or TvT or TvZ still has often more diversity than a whole bo3 of PvP.
This definitly is something we can rate Blizzard for, even though it does not break the game for players nor as an esports game. It's something that deserves to be improved.
On April 13 2011 07:13 supersoft wrote:
wow, I just watched the MC vs. Idra game... Pretty bad commentating in my oppinion... MC wasn't behind at all. It was a tense game but not onesided at all... So MCs attack wasn't a comeback...
The commentating might not have been flawless, but it's not that bad either. Sure it wasn't that accurate analysis there but they didn't entirely screw up. It's always much easier to rate it afterwards.
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On April 13 2011 07:13 supersoft wrote:
wow, I just watched the MC vs. Idra game... Pretty bad commentating in my oppinion... MC wasn't behind at all. It was a tense game but not onesided at all... So MCs attack wasn't a comeback...
MC's bases were never harassed. I don't think he ever even lost a building or mining probe. MC had 4 bases, 1 of which was gold, when Idra had 4 bases. In that situation, MC was insanely ahead. Untouched 4 base economy with gold. In the only time where it looked like Idra was ahead, he traded armies with MC but did no damage to MC's economy or base. That put Idra a bit ahead and he should have aggressively harassed after that but didn't and quickly fell behind MC again. MC also harassed Idra's 4th with Zealots but Idra never bothered to drop MC or even harass with lings despite MC's army positioning making an attack against his 3rd and main simultaneously a good idea.
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Just got home from the event. Was so awesome. I finaly feel that esports have come to the west to stay 
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On April 13 2011 05:42 Megatronn wrote:
MC > White Ra 4 gate.
MC < White Ra Other builds.
Except 3gate blink stalker and proxy 2-gate, amirite?
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On April 13 2011 07:09 skrzmark wrote:
The only Korean that doesn't get crap for cheesing is Boxer.
That's just because it's Boxer lol. Although for some reason foreigners cheesing seem to not get crapped on as much?
oGsMC 4 gates to victory vs WhiteRa : "Augh stupid pvp 4 gate cheesy all in bla bla bla"
TT1 4 gates to victory vs MKP : "Well played! Taking a game off MKP maybe he's back in it now!"
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ggs ) awesome event
protoss
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On April 13 2011 07:20 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:09 skrzmark wrote:
The only Korean that doesn't get crap for cheesing is Boxer. That's just because it's Boxer lol. Although for some reason foreigners cheesing seem to not get crapped on as much? oGsMC 4 gates to victory vs WhiteRa : "Augh stupid pvp 4 gate cheesy all in bla bla bla" TT1 4 gates to victory vs MKP : "Well played! Taking a game off MKP maybe he's back in it now!"
It's the foreigner bias. People love seeing foreigners beat Koreans. If White-Ra proxy gated to victory over MC, the site would be overloaded with "special tactics" photoshops.
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On April 13 2011 07:20 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:09 skrzmark wrote:
The only Korean that doesn't get crap for cheesing is Boxer. That's just because it's Boxer lol. Although for some reason foreigners cheesing seem to not get crapped on as much? oGsMC 4 gates to victory vs WhiteRa : "Augh stupid pvp 4 gate cheesy all in bla bla bla" TT1 4 gates to victory vs MKP : "Well played! Taking a game off MKP maybe he's back in it now!"
Actually the TT1 game was not a very recommended one by the community and most people acknowledged that the only game TT1 could take off MKP was one where he 4gated.
Also I truly do believe that it depends on the person playing, and not just their race. If it was someone less likable than White-Ra (I don't think you can deny that for as many fans of Huk there are nowadays almost as many anti-fans), such as Huk, than people wouldn't be so harsh on MC (they'd just go, ROFL MC stomping). People usually go with their faves or the underdogs.
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Ahh I just watched the finals. What a series!!!!!!!! I don't know how anyone can bitch about it unless you are just blind anti-MC. It was so intense. MC balls of steel laying 15k on the line with a proxy 2gate. MC is a beast.
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i understand and respect what MC did in that last game, and i think i would probably do the same thing, but it was soooooooooo sad to see WhiteRa lose. Would've loved to see his insanely excited interview if he had won. GGs today, very entertaining. Great casters too! gj Dreamhack
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/5647/20110201143311.jpg)
