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On April 13 2011 05:20 Warrice wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 05:16 fishjie wrote:
so many whiners about cheese its a legit way to play the game.
MC is arguably the best sc2 player in the world right now, deal with it.
great series! i'm happy white-ra managed to take 2 games off MC, so epic he may win the most, but that doesnt make him more skilled than others, he is good at making precise builds and timing attacks other than that, i cant name a thing he is THAT good at.
MC's blink micro at White-ra's ramp in game 4 was impeccable, especially blinking injured stalkers forward to keep them from zealots while still keeping them attacking.
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On April 13 2011 05:46 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 05:41 SpiffD wrote:On April 13 2011 05:39 andrewlt wrote:On April 13 2011 05:34 enemy2010 wrote:On April 13 2011 05:30 IceMonster wrote:
Cut the "gentlemen" and "honor" crap. You play to win. You don't handicap yourself.
The thing is, MC can have both. He could win so much games and tournaments AND be (sometimes) a gentleman. That would gain him so much more fans and make him even more famous and awesome. He has won the money, everybody knows that he is able to own and win. It could be time to show people that he is also a huge baller.  Great GREAT tournament overall! I didn't thought that this small tourney on one day would be that big in the end! So amazing! I dont even know how to put that in words! THANKS SWEDEN! :D :D :D People already mentioned it. MC was trying to be a gentleman and provide entertaining games by spotting White-Ra a 2-0 lead by not 4-gating. Can't blame him for playing to win after being 1 loss away from elimination. Are you trolling? He got severely outplayed in the first 2 games. If MC is "playing to win" why would he give white-ra a 2-0 lead. He was obviously trying to entertain the foreigner biased fans. He only 4-gated when he was about to lose the series.
Precisely. He entertained by not 4 gating, even though it is hands down the best strategy in PvP.
If you see MC 4 gating, just gg already.
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On April 13 2011 05:55 Azarkon wrote:Petty details aside, I think what's important in this tournament is that MC, considered the best player from KR, barely won White-Ra under LAN conditions. Whether you believe White-Ra is the best PvP in the foreigner's scene (and I think most people prior to this tournament would not have said so), this only illustrates, I think, that yes - foreigners can compete. At least in PvP. 
And there was TSL, afaik WhiteRa was also in Korea at the time of the games being played.
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Why is it that Boxer is the most famous starcraft player in the world and is essentially loved by everyone, while so many people are hating on MC?
Why is it okay for Boxer to bunker rush yellow 3 games in a row in a bo5 to win a tournament final, yet MC doing one cheese strat in game 5 (which is extremely risky and ballsy by the way) all of a sudden makes him a villain?
You people need to wake up
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On April 13 2011 06:01 Zzoram wrote:
In this tournament MC played:
long macro games and won
aggressive all-ins and won
reactive play and won
What more does a player have to do? People calling him cheesy are just flat out wrong. He does whatever he best suits the situation, based on the map, his opponent's style, and what he scouts. He's good at every style of play and wins with every style of play.
Do people honestly think a no rush 15 final game would've been better? That's ridiculous. The most exciting match of their while series was how $15,000 rested on White-Ra's probe just barely missing MC's probe. That's edge of your seat excitement much more than 10 vs 10 colossus.
Long macro games and won = BARELY. Against IdrA in long maccro game he was dominated, he lost one against Morrow... serously, nobody says he cannot win a maccro game: he is certainly one of the best maccro player, but ONE OF THE BEST. He is not a "bonjwa", he should not have 3 win in GSL, he should not win every damn tournament. The current state of the game permit him to do so, and people are hungry about it.
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I think most people would probably give MC a micro edge on White-Ra.
Though, if this were Naniwa or Kiwikaki, it might be a different story.
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On April 13 2011 06:00 dapanman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 05:47 Arpe wrote:
To Hot_Bid and all you other well educated SC fans.
Im a casual viewer. I watch some GSL, maybe TSL if I find the time. I dont play SC2 at all actually, even though I did play for a few months when it was released. I feel like im a good example of a "noobish casual viewer" and part of a crowd that the E-sport and SC2 scene really wants to get more viewers from. Now I do understand that for you that final game was really smart and all, but for me that didnt happen. And if SC2 want to make it bigtime I think they/we/production/casters need to find ways to make cheese like that feel just as epic as a 40min slugfest. I just don't think thats possible, at the very least not possible in this situation. I for one don't blame MC one bit for making the decision he did in game 5, but the way that game played out was just not exciting, there was a tense moment after the first pylon was dropped when we weren't sure if WR was going to check for proxies, and that was it. When he queued up a probe to scout the top base, the outcome of that game was perfectly clear. Anyone who has lost to a proxy on that map knows the pylon position on the low ground will not be spotted by the AI pathing, in fact the only reason that probe came anywhere close was because WR was scouting the wrong base. For the casters, there is absolutely nothing to say besides: "OH GOD HE IS PROXYING WILL WR SCOUT" "OH GOD HE ISNT SCOUTING" "OH GOD NOW HES SCOUTING THE WRONG BASE" "OH GOD GG" The casters did the best they could by pretending that probe's path was anywhere close to spotting the pylon. Unfortunately for you I don't think there is anyway to make a 3 minute game that is decided at 1:15 'epic,' which really is just too bad.
Very true. As a spectator, player, and White-Ra fan, game 5 was just a sinking feeling in my stomache after the proxy pylon got up. Basically it just left what I would guess a majority of the viewers with a bad feeling at the end of the tournament. Which is too bad because it was a great tournament.
Can't we all just agree that MC is good? And more importantly, that we love White-Ra!
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MC's control, builds, macro, scouting, and mind games were all better than anyone else in this tournament. He proved he was the best player at the tournament, at least for today.
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Clearly, based on one Bo5, we must now determine any of these possibilities, depending on which player you like more:
You like MC more: He was just dicking around for two games, but he is way better than White-Ra.
You like White-Ra more: MC just rushed him three times in shitty games and cheese sucks and shouldn't be a part of SC2.
Come on. Can't you just be SAD your favorite player lost instead of ANGRY?
PvP isn't imbalanced, there shouldn't be discussions of gameplay mechanics that are GOING TO ALWAYS be a part of SC2.
Gwargabglrgl.
I feel like there's more posts talking about balance and cheese than the actual games in this thread.
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On April 13 2011 06:04 -orb- wrote:
Why is it that Boxer is the most famous starcraft player in the world and is essentially loved by everyone, while so many people are hating on MC?
Why is it okay for Boxer to bunker rush yellow 3 games in a row in a bo5 to win a tournament final, yet MC doing one cheese strat in game 5 (which is extremely risky and ballsy by the way) all of a sudden makes him a villain?
You people need to wake up
well said.
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On April 13 2011 05:48 Zane wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 05:46 CrAzEdBaDgEr wrote:On April 13 2011 05:44 Zane wrote:On April 13 2011 05:37 WhiteDog wrote:On April 13 2011 05:33 oriox wrote:On April 13 2011 05:31 dapanman wrote:On April 13 2011 05:27 deadjon wrote:
Is it okay to be let down by game 5?
It just seemed to anti-climatic to see it end due to lack of proper scouting.
Taking nothing away from either player, purely from a fan / spectator standpoint, game five was a fizzle to an overall bang of a tournament. This is how I feel. But apparently on the Internet you are not allowed to be disappointed that game 5 of a tied bo5 series in a finals worth $15k between the 'best player in the world' and 'the best foreigner in the world' ends at 3 minutes because of a 2 gate. That's because you don't get it. You don't get it, that's freeking super dupper intelligent to 3 gate blink all in / 4gate rush / proxy on the last 3 game of a final. The reality is: MC could not win PvP against White-Ra in a straight maccro game / high tech oriented play (robo) so he decided he would cheese 3 games in a row and win with his superior army control / game sense. He deserved it, but the game is dumb if you can win 3 time in a row at that level of play with such nonsense 10 years old build order. The game is so dumb that MC is hands down the most dominating player, even though he only relies on rushes (the way he executes his rushes is impressive nevertheless). Considering his playstyle, I don't expect his domination to last much longer. People will figure out ways to deal with him/the game will get patched, and then the solid players will start to shine. At least that's what I hope. "and then the solid players will start to shine" ROFL, I guess the best player in the world isn't even a solid player. Why do you reject reality so forcefully? I mean solid as in a well rounded, macro player. Like MVP if you want. I never denied the fact that MC is currently the best player in the world.
MC is a well-rounded macro player. He's played plenty of games where he's shown this. Just because a player cheeses once in a BO5 series (in a PvP, no less) does not make him any less of a solid macro player.
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GOD, I'm so pissed right now. I had to go to class and I missed this epic series. So glad MC won. Reading this thread after MC won with proxy gates is pure bliss. HATERS GONNA HATE. MC is a complete baller. Cheese is part of the game, stop crying hahahahahahahah.
MC FIGHTING
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Wow I'm impressed with Whitera. MC had to pull out three allins/cheeses to win. I wish Whitera had stopped making workers in Game 4. Basically, MC takes the series, but Whitera kicked his ass when he tried to play straight-up.
I'm not saying wins aren't wins though. Grats to Mc for doing what he had to do to win with some slick allins and cheeses.
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Disappointed by the finals, though not surprised, it's PvP after all.
Not necessarily talking about Game 5, which would have probably gone to WhiteRa had he known the map was forced cross positions (definitely would've scouted his own base), but the series in general. In fact, were PvP less volatile I doubt MC would've bet $15k that WhiteRa wouldn't scout his own base...
Odd how so many people are going out of their way to defend how exciting some of the games were, when it's obvious most people don't enjoy them. There's a reason we've been getting away from maps like Steppes of War or Delta Quadrant. It's to give us longer, more exciting games, giving the better player more chances at winning, less coin-flippy bullshit.
Unfortunately the larger maps don't cure the cancer that is the warpgate mechanic, so we're left with Protoss dominating the scene, which is the worst possible outcome considering how PvP is the worst MU to watch by far.
edit: Also wanted to add to those saying how WhiteRa beats MC in straight-up games, that it's not necessarily true. MC was playing a "safe" style, meaning cutting probes when you're supposed to so you can survive the standard 1-base PvP plays. WhiteRa played greedy the entire series, so once MC realized this, he punished him for it.
If PvP were more stable, I guarantee you MC wouldn't sit on ~20 probes every damn game.
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On April 13 2011 05:56 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 05:44 Chongli wrote:
I'm sure I'm not the first person to write it since theres 580+ pages.... but...
If White-Ra had won Game 5 the same way, people would be sucking him off in this thread for having such big balls instead of crucifying MC for doing the same thing. The difference is: white-ra is not rushing every game ?
No idea what series you've watched.
4gate vs 3 gate robo - WhiteRa cheese
expand/fast colossus vs blink stalkers - no cheese
4gate vs 4gate x2 - extra cheese with extra cheese on top
2gate proxy - MC cheese
This according to you, 4gate being cheese even if it's considered the most reliable PvP build.
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United States15275 Posts
On April 13 2011 06:05 Peekaboo wrote:
Wow I'm impressed with Whitera. MC had to pull out three allins/cheeses to win. I wish Whitera had stopped making workers in Game 4. Basically, MC takes the series, but Whitera kicked his ass when he tried to play straight-up.
I'm not saying wins aren't wins though. Grats to Mc for doing what he had to do to win with some slick allins and cheeses.
Lmao? WR won Game 1 by the skin of his teeth.
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On April 13 2011 06:05 Peekaboo wrote:
Wow I'm impressed with Whitera. MC had to pull out three allins/cheeses to win. I wish Whitera had stopped making workers in Game 4. Basically, MC takes the series, but Whitera kicked his ass when he tried to play straight-up.
I'm not saying wins aren't wins though. Grats to Mc for doing what he had to do to win with some slick allins and cheeses.
One of WhiteRa's two wins was from a four gate? WhiteRa offensively four gated MC as well in the TSL and lost to one gate robo? lololol I like how people have such selective memory.
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On April 13 2011 06:04 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 06:01 Zzoram wrote:
In this tournament MC played:
long macro games and won
aggressive all-ins and won
reactive play and won
What more does a player have to do? People calling him cheesy are just flat out wrong. He does whatever he best suits the situation, based on the map, his opponent's style, and what he scouts. He's good at every style of play and wins with every style of play.
Do people honestly think a no rush 15 final game would've been better? That's ridiculous. The most exciting match of their while series was how $15,000 rested on White-Ra's probe just barely missing MC's probe. That's edge of your seat excitement much more than 10 vs 10 colossus. Long macro games and won = BARELY. Against IdrA in long maccro game he was dominated, he lost one against Morrow... serously.
He beat Idra in the long macro game due to his superior positioning and control. It's not his fault that Idra couldn't seal the deal. In fact, they only traded armies, Idra never killed any of MC's buildings. Idra played poorly, he let MC get even bases with him, and MC was ahead because one of his bases was a gold. Idra didn't harass MC's 2 undefended bases even once until the final battle, when he made the terrible decision of putting all his broodlords out front without any support.
Yes he lost a game against MorroW, nobody has 100% winrate, but MC still showed he was the best player.
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On April 13 2011 06:04 Azarkon wrote:
Yes, I think we have already established that MC has a micro edge on White-Ra.
Though, if this were Naniwa or Kiwikai, it might be a different story.
Yeah .. top WC3 like Naniwa or Kiwikaki have the best chance of beating MC at PvP. Maybe NASL will give us those matches... that would be awesome.
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On April 13 2011 05:55 Azarkon wrote:Petty details aside, I think what's important in this tournament is that MC, considered the best player from KR, barely won White-Ra under LAN conditions. Whether you believe White-Ra is the best PvP in the foreigner's scene (and I think most people prior to this tournament would not have said so), this only illustrates, I think, that yes - foreigners can compete. At least in PvP.
Did you conveniently forget that White-Ra got STOMPED by MC in TSL? This doesn't show much except that you can not blanket say "foreigners can compete with Koreans" or "Koreans own white dudes" based on a select few matches/tourneys, we need to see how it turns out in the long run
It's like saying MVP>Flash in SC1 since he managed to take a game off him
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EPT
