On April 13 2011 05:05 ffadicted wrote: Handball gets you a red card and is in the rule books as AGAINST THE RULES Can't recall a player being punished or disqualified for proxy 2 gating
You guys use the worst analogies ever lol
Again, they don't ban you from soccer for doing that. Every trainer would tell you that fouling the last man to prevent a goal is the best thing to do and they would fire you if you don't do that because it's against the rules. You get a red card but you prevent a goal, you cheese but if you fail you lose the game. The example works in my opinion.
Fouling the last player/handball/etc etc are all against the rules and lead to penalties from external entities, be it referees or in some cases you DO get banned from leagues (red card = can't play next match in any soccer league, I'll have you know lol).
There is no external punishment for cheese. It's a bad analogy
I'm confused to why people think the last game wasn't entertaining, the crowd were certainly entertained with the "ooh"s and "aah"s (not exactly but whatever). I was on the edge of my seat wondering if white-ra would notice it, i was constantly thinking to myself "come on white-ra check for a damn proxy!"
Its not like it's a sure win, Naniwa in MLG checked his base for a proxy nearly every game, its just a shame White-ra overlooked it.
Sure cheese can be annoying if they happen nearly all the time (earlier GSL's) but since long games are much more common, i welcome cheese games, they make for great tension.
On April 13 2011 05:06 dreamhackTV wrote: Hey guys,
Just a quick info message to let you know that raw VODs of the whole tournament can already be found on our Justin TV channel: www.justin.tv/dreamhacktv
After such an amazing tournament, I really can't believe how much whining we're getting about MC winning, especially since he was the huge favorite anyway. I love White-Ra, and he played incredibly well overall, but the fact that he was unable to scout his own base made him lose the game, and MC was just plain ballsy with that last move.
Cheesing isn't cheating, and you play to win. Period. If you don't like the fact that a player's top priority is to win instead of entertain you, then you probably shouldn't be watching any tournament with a prize pool. When money is on the line, players use strategies that they're comfortable with. You're not always going to see amazing games or crazy builds.
If you don't like the fact that MC tricked White-Ra in the last game, then just talk about something not related to MC. Or don't post at all. The QQ regarding MC's strategy doesn't need to be included. Post about how awesome White-Ra played overall, or how Dreamhack was an amazing tournament.
Don't post bullshit about how MC needs to cheese to win, or how he doesn't have real skill, because his achievements have already proven that he's one of the best SC2 players in the world.
On April 13 2011 05:00 Hot_Bid wrote:If we're ever at a point where players are just playing to entertain fans and not to win, then SC2 as an ESPORT will definitely fail.
A failure like WWE?
HAHA, hold on , let me collect myself, I thought for a second you just said wrestling is a sport
Wrestling is a sport, maybe not the WWE; but it certanly is one and it is one of the oldest in existence
People don't know the difference between actual wrestling and American "wrestling."
On April 13 2011 04:42 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I don't get it.. have you all forgotten this is a strategy game?
Did you enjoy it when this happened?
Really, people have a right to be upset if we are robbed of a great finish yeah? But MC won grats to him.
Well said Halvorg. No offence Naz, I just think that both sides of this argument are represented well by this. MC did what he chose to to win and it worked and thats great, but I understand how one could be disappointed by that
The video show something that is illegal tactics. What did mc do that was illegal against the rule of the game?
Holy fuck did you just show me an example of cheating to compare the situations?
My IQ just dropped to 50 trying to understand your point. These situations are NOTHING alike. Trying to win and trying to win by cheating are two different worlds buddy.
Actually, it's not illegal. You get a red card and a penalty and that's it. In football if there is an attacker running alone and the last defender can't catch up, it's usually advisable to foul him. You get a red card, but they will just get a penalty kick. What he meant is that it's anti-climax I think, it would be "cheating" only if the ref hadn't seen it and even that would have been considered something you just have to use (as it can go both ways).
If it's not illegal then there would be no punishment for doing such acts. You basically proved that it was illegal. Just because the scope is limited to within the game and not always outside of the game(Red cards can affect participation in other games) you cannot say it's legal.
Just no. It's part of the game, if a player can prevent his team from getting eliminated from the world cup do you think he'd care about getting a red card? Also, partecipation for other games is only for bad behaviour (punching, spitting, hurting someone). That was just a technical "illegal" move which is completely contemplated in the game, it does not differ from cheese in any way. If your cheese gets spotted, you lose the game. If their penalty kick scores, you are in the same situation as before but with a player less. The example is more than valid in my opinion.
I'm sorry but I am battling to understand what you are trying to say. You say it's not illegal because it's "part of the game". Yet there is punishment for it and a player cannot do it without receiving this punishment(Unless ref/outside ref doesn't see). Nothing else matters. You stated that it wasn't illegal because it could be done but that isn't a valid line of reasoning. It is illegal. I never said your point of it being like cheese didn't stand, merely you were wrong about it being legal.
That being said it differs completely from being cheese. You cannot take such an arbitrary comparison and then state you have solved the mystery. That is just complete nonsense. Cheese is a concept within a strategy game. Hand balling and other illegal activities are confined within football. A direct comparison is impossible, you can make some kind of philosophical comparison but I find those rather pointless.
I'm not supporting the example, I was cheering for both. It's just that the way you think of "illegal action" is wrong, as I wrote
Again, they don't ban you from soccer for doing that. Every trainer would tell you that fouling the last man to prevent a goal is the best thing to do and they would fire you if you don't do that because it's against the rules. You get a red card but you prevent a goal, you cheese but if you fail you lose the game. The example works in my opinion.
On April 12 2011 23:05 Sqq wrote: is 2gd the same guy that used to hoste that WoW show on esl ? Used to watch it every week til they removed his counter weight for reasons they wouldn't say.
Yep, and the "counter weight" would be matt "zalmah" or something like that.
Hope nobody read that
Oh god this is so funny...
- If we both won 15,000 dollars, I'd buy a bazooka! - Why would you get a bazooka!? - 'Cause you'd be in a fucking hot air balloon.
Macro games suck if you know beforehand there is no risk involved.
White-ra was consistent in his openings, and MC made a good read on him. Remember Naniwa's play in MLG? Naniwa scouts every corner and creek on the map for cheesy builds.
Not scouting your base is greedy and risky, the gamble didn't pay off for White-ra this time around.
On April 13 2011 05:00 Hot_Bid wrote: The only reason epic long macro games are epic is because we know players are trying to win 100%. If we're ever at a point where players are just playing to entertain fans and not to win, then SC2 as an ESPORT will definitely fail. Everyone needs to stop killing MC and recognize that he did something that was very smart given the way the map was and how he saw WR play in the earlier games. Not to mention this is something that is definitely not a sure win.
Who's denying it was smart? Do you think it's strange to get upset when the well mannered guy who wouldn't think of all-inning, is up 2-0 against a player with an aura of invincibility and then loses to 3 all-ins in a row?
Do you think it is strange that when this well mannered guy doesn't scout correctly gets punished for it? No one is saying to not be upset that White-ra lost, but do not flame MC for beating him or saying that he didn't deserve it. That logic has and never will hold true. The person who wins DESERVES to win, they played the better game and thus get a better reward.
On April 13 2011 05:00 Hot_Bid wrote:If we're ever at a point where players are just playing to entertain fans and not to win, then SC2 as an ESPORT will definitely fail.
A failure like WWE?
If the WWE was a sport then I would say it has failed. It is not a sport however it is entertainment and acting. And thus it does a good job. Saying WWE is an example of why you would rather see long macro games all the time is pretty much exactly the point people are trying to make. We want a sport not an act. As a sport we must succeed and not as an act.
MMA is a sport and there's plenty of fighters there who fight to win. As such a match that is exciting is actually exciting because you don't get to see it every single time.
THIS!!!
How often do you hear people who arnt super into MMA go "oh my god why do they lay down and hug each other i hate that. its so boring"
Yet for example, UFC, is a billion dollar company now.
You actually hear that quite alot when the game is getting drawn out with both fighters being exhausted
My IQ just dropped to 50 trying to understand your point. These situations are NOTHING alike. Trying to win and trying to win by cheating are two different worlds buddy.
That wasn't cheating. The rule set for soccer says that a player who deliberately bats the ball down with his hands is ejected from the game and the opposing team gets a penalty kick. The player on Uruguay used that to his advantage. If people have a problem with the rule, change it. You can't bely human nature when someone takes advantage of the rule set. It was a smart play.
On April 13 2011 04:42 Liquid`Nazgul wrote: I don't get it.. have you all forgotten this is a strategy game?
I didn't forget this. But I also listen when players like MC promise entertaining games. There is pride involved in the way you win as much as the win itself. My frustration comes from the lack of showmanship. I want to see their mid and late game PvP (does that even exist?!) and MC knows that while he won, he did not win how a God would win. He won like a mere mortal, reverting to cheesy 'strategic' play.
He gets the check, get gets the W. WhiteRa gets my respect though.
Are you a protoss? Do you understand how annoying PvP is? A high level masters player can lose a PvP to a diamond level player just because of a build order coinflip. MC is as close as there is to a PvP god, but certain things beat him. For instance, second game, because there's an observer versus observer war and MC doesn't want to lose his, he won't be scouting, so he wouldn't see WhiteRa's ballsy expansion that dies to any pressure or scouting. WhiteRa cut a ton of corners and took huge risks to win his games, because he knew he had to do that to win. If that probe hadnt gotten in he was completely dead. If that expand got scouted earlier, he was completely dead.
Then people try to insult MC for playing one base protoss? Because if he expanded and it's scouted, the opponent comes in without that 400 mineral drain, and without the drain of making more probes, and rolls him over with a superior army. HERP DERP. They insult MC for proxy 2gating, when WhiteRa plays greedy, scouts late, doesn't check his own base, and always skips the first zealot for a fast stalker?
People who are whining must know nothing about protoss. People who say that WhiteRa is the obviously better player are just deluding themselves through fanboyism. He took huge risks that he knew he had to take after getting 3-0'd in the TSL. MC decided to allow him no opportunity to cut corners, and when WhiteRa had pressure on him he as unable to cut corners without outright dying.
Quoted for post of the hour.
In another tangent, I like pvp more and more. Just like zvz in sc1 was hated by some, that fact that it's such small things that decide the outcome is exciting imho.
idk, if 4 gates were a tiny bit less effective i'd probably enjoy the match as much as any. then it's like colossus ball vs blink stalker base race or some kind of cannon rush and what not. i like to expand =[
Are the people following this thread the same as from earlier today? I recall everyone giving TLO a hard time when he 7 RAX'ed Idra and now everyone's applauding MC for "doing what it takes to win". I'm not saying either of them did something wrong, but it's funny how the general opinion has changed.
On April 13 2011 04:44 pak150 wrote: Have you forgotten that by definition sports should be entertaining to watch? Unless you're an uber fan, that kind of stuff (and frankly, PvP in general) is not entertaining.
Incorrect. Sports should be played to win, hence there being a shitton of sports not on your main stream television because they are not all enjoyable to watch, but they are still enjoyable to play. There are only a dozen or so major sports on television whereas there are hundreds maybe thousands of sports in the world.
If you are not entertained by strategy games where people play to win then so be it. Don't come up with an imaginary statement of fact to justify your own opinions.
An you can win in more or less respectful ways. Nobody respects Italy when they play as lame as they possibly can in Soccer.
Win in more respectful ways? Are they having a samurai battle?
^ Hahahaha you got a laugh out of me. Theres no point to arguing with these people. They cant even realize that not every finds the same thing exciting. I actually really like PvP, coming from a WC3 background, I think the matchup best shows players micro, and MC has some amazing ass micro. Its pretty fun to watch.
On April 13 2011 05:00 Hot_Bid wrote: The only reason epic long macro games are epic is because we know players are trying to win 100%. If we're ever at a point where players are just playing to entertain fans and not to win, then SC2 as an ESPORT will definitely fail. Everyone needs to stop killing MC and recognize that he did something that was very smart given the way the map was and how he saw WR play in the earlier games. Not to mention this is something that is definitely not a sure win.
Who's denying it was smart? Do you think it's strange to get upset when the well mannered guy who wouldn't think of all-inning, is up 2-0 against a player with an aura of invincibility and then loses to 3 all-ins in a row?
Did you watch WR vs MC in the TSL? MC defended two 4-gates from WR the exact same way.
Let's not try to pretend there's a fantasy land where Protoss exist who don't 4-gate attack in PvP :/
ugh people hating on MC for proxy 2gating are really dumb.... you didnt complain when whitera did a 4gate all in on Taldarim. it is EXACTLY the same... i was cheering for white ra too but this is just dumb. g5 showed great play by MC - it showed a CALCULATED RISK and great bo5 gameplan. learn to appreciate it
EPT
