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On April 10 2011 05:23 Skydancer wrote:
I don't hate WR but when someone don't know how to lose without QQ it's sad... especially after you did just the game before what you're QQ about in the next match...
I respect white-ra as a player (also if clearly MC is way way ahead him) but he lost two times and QQ two times... is too much from an old respected player like him...
After 10months that the game is out QQ about 4 gate is so boring...
I think you should say QQ more.
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On April 10 2011 06:57 kaisr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 06:53 DyEnasTy wrote:On April 10 2011 06:09 s4life wrote:
What is with the foreign WC3 players? Kiwi, Naniwa, Kas, Thorzain and now Happy (look him up in sc2ranks).. they are absolutely destroying the foreign ex SC1 players in every tournament.... any theories? I think mayyybe the BW players are trying to play this like BW, but in fact SC2 rewards more creative play over mechanical. And WC3 was a game that has been associated with needing to have creative and smart game plans over macro mechanics. But thats more my opinion than any kind of fact. for the first time anyone has posted this i think i agree with tyler. It seems like hes treating it like BW where his mechanics were 1.5x as good as most ppl, especially relatively unknowns so he loves going ultra safe builds. The problem is this is sc2 where the gap between top players mechanics is pretty small. I really hate his super early robo build. It puts him slightly behind like 90% of T builds and even with the last 10%, its only advantage is that hes pretty much safe against most things T can throw at him early game. He shouldve definitely done some 1g expos or the alicia 3g attack+expo builds instead of the super early robo -.-
Even though SC2 inherited BW's metagame in terms of the overall body of general RTS knowledge, it's still far from anything close to BW in terms of actual execution and knowledge of the game. However superior Tyler's mechanics are, he can't harness them without enough things to do. I can absolutely guarantee that Tyler's mechanics would win him any long macro game with 5+ bases. These are the games where a mechanical advantage will stack up into an actual advantage in game, because there are more things to do.
The only problem is, in BW, a mechanical advantage will instantly give the player an edge right at the start due to the myriad of manual tasks. In SC2, it won't until the late-game is reached. I just don't see any way to guarantee a late game until people are more familiar with all possible build orders and map advantages.
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On April 10 2011 06:55 NotSupporting wrote:
Surprised to read that staff predictions/liquid bets were so much in favor of Tyler, you might have though people would realize by now that Thorzain ain't to be underestimated. The NA server/players are miles behind EU and Korea by now and I expect the skill gap to get even wider. We are 9 million people in Sweden yet we have more top Starcraft 2 players (or equal) compared to USA who has 300 million people.
I would say "miles" ahead is an exaggeration, but if it makes you sleep at night... hey everyone needs sleep. Also gratz on the per capita sucess ratio for starcraft 2 in comparison to the U.S.. I do think that U.S. is behind, but I think we can all agree that the larger tournements like IGN and NASL get the more narrow the skill Difference will be. Only time will tell 
I will say that Tyler looked very confused and off his game after the first match. That Mech play great to see in action in the tsl.
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On April 10 2011 06:57 kaisr wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 06:53 DyEnasTy wrote:On April 10 2011 06:09 s4life wrote:
What is with the foreign WC3 players? Kiwi, Naniwa, Kas, Thorzain and now Happy (look him up in sc2ranks).. they are absolutely destroying the foreign ex SC1 players in every tournament.... any theories? I think mayyybe the BW players are trying to play this like BW, but in fact SC2 rewards more creative play over mechanical. And WC3 was a game that has been associated with needing to have creative and smart game plans over macro mechanics. But thats more my opinion than any kind of fact. for the first time anyone has posted this i think i agree with tyler. It seems like hes treating it like BW where his mechanics were 1.5x as good as most ppl, especially relatively unknowns so he loves going ultra safe builds. The problem is this is sc2 where the gap between top players mechanics is pretty small. I really hate his super early robo build. It puts him slightly behind like 90% of T builds and even with the last 10%, its only advantage is that hes pretty much safe against most things T can throw at him early game. He shouldve definitely done some 1g expos or the alicia 3g attack+expo builds instead of the super early robo -.-
He does his build because he thinks it is better. He thinks that he knows something that oGsMC and other top protosses doesn't. I mean people are always saying that Tyler always comes up with some super new secret builds and that TSL would be the tournament that he showcased it. Well, his showing was disappointing to say the least.
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On April 10 2011 07:02 NotSupporting wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 07:01 usethis2 wrote:
Does TSL releases replays as well? If so, where can I find them? (preferably as a package, such as "RO32 Pack") Thanks in advance.
they do not release replays.
Ah.. Ty.
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how is white raw saying Mc's 4 gate is the best BM?
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On April 10 2011 06:53 ct2299 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 06:38 danielsan wrote:On April 10 2011 06:19 Me1234 wrote:On April 10 2011 06:03 Qaatar wrote:
The second series had an expected result. Ra hasn't done anything in Korea other than getting owned left and right by all three races. His form just isn't good right now imo.
I'm shocked at Nony's performance, however, especially given the fact that he plays P, and PvT is a good match-up for him (see his previous games against Strelok).
As for those saying Thorzain has any chance against MC - sure he does, but MC after his poor performance in the FXOpen has tweeted that he's taking foreigners much more seriously, so I doubt there will be an element of surprise anymore. Those who think otherwise are misinformed. whaaat?? seeing that white-ra managed to win a game in the teamleague in korea, I had hope he could at least win some maps or even win but it was pretty much obvious that thorzain could defeat tyler easily. his win vs MC was 100% incidental. I think that is not giving White-Ra enough credit. His win against MC in the team league was not 100% incidental. I like the Korean players, but that is simply not giving White-Ra enough credit. He caught MC off guard, and did something MC didn't expect (in a PvP). People who think warp prism play was "unknown to MC" simply have not watched MC games because MC has used warp prisms in more than one occasion in his GSL play. But after using that "ace" you could say, I think MC expected it a lot more. I think White-Ra being so unhappy about losing to 4gate is unreasonable. If he truly wants to be a top top top player, he should be able to fend off the 4gate an out micro his opponent. PvP is about as "micro intensive" of a match up as you can get.
warp prism play was eye candy. MC was infinitely behind by BO paired with circumstance.
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On April 10 2011 07:08 Qaatar wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 06:57 kaisr wrote:On April 10 2011 06:53 DyEnasTy wrote:On April 10 2011 06:09 s4life wrote:
What is with the foreign WC3 players? Kiwi, Naniwa, Kas, Thorzain and now Happy (look him up in sc2ranks).. they are absolutely destroying the foreign ex SC1 players in every tournament.... any theories? I think mayyybe the BW players are trying to play this like BW, but in fact SC2 rewards more creative play over mechanical. And WC3 was a game that has been associated with needing to have creative and smart game plans over macro mechanics. But thats more my opinion than any kind of fact. for the first time anyone has posted this i think i agree with tyler. It seems like hes treating it like BW where his mechanics were 1.5x as good as most ppl, especially relatively unknowns so he loves going ultra safe builds. The problem is this is sc2 where the gap between top players mechanics is pretty small. I really hate his super early robo build. It puts him slightly behind like 90% of T builds and even with the last 10%, its only advantage is that hes pretty much safe against most things T can throw at him early game. He shouldve definitely done some 1g expos or the alicia 3g attack+expo builds instead of the super early robo -.- Even though SC2 inherited BW's metagame in terms of the overall body of general RTS knowledge, it's still far from anything close to BW in terms of actual execution and knowledge of the game. However superior Tyler's mechanics are, he can't harness them without enough things to do. I can absolutely guarantee that Tyler's mechanics would win him any long macro game with 5+ bases. These are the games where a mechanical advantage will stack up into an actual advantage in game, because there are more things to do. The only problem is, in BW, a mechanical advantage will instantly give the player an edge right at the start due to the myriad of manual tasks. In SC2, it won't until the late-game is reached. I just don't see any way to guarantee a late game until people are more familiar with all possible build orders and map advantages.
You're wrong. If you couldn't see the difference between MC's control of his blink stalkers and Tyler's then you're blind. There was plenty of multitasking that he needed to do in Game 2 and he failed to do it. You are really overestimating Tyler's mechanics and underestimating SC2's. No wonder you aren't impressed with MC's play. You don't know what skill is.
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On April 10 2011 06:53 DyEnasTy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 06:09 s4life wrote:
What is with the foreign WC3 players? Kiwi, Naniwa, Kas, Thorzain and now Happy (look him up in sc2ranks).. they are absolutely destroying the foreign ex SC1 players in every tournament.... any theories? I think mayyybe the BW players are trying to play this like BW, but in fact SC2 rewards more creative play over mechanical. And WC3 was a game that has been associated with needing to have creative and smart game plans over macro mechanics. But thats more my opinion than any kind of fact.
The top WC3 players in Europe were professional gamers who travelled all over the world competing, played at the highest level of their game and made a decent living from it.
The top BW players in Europe were amateurs who juggled the game between real jobs/school, were far below the skill level of the top pros in Korea and had 1 or 2 big tournaments a year to practice for.
The best RTS players on the planet are the Korean BW pros but the top WC3 pros come after that imo and ahead of the BW foreigners.
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On April 10 2011 05:26 tdt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 05:18 mordk wrote:On April 10 2011 05:15 Skydancer wrote:
If the 4gate is the besty why he lost in game 2?
Pls come on white-ra you're 30 years old and married... stop be a child BM and QQ.
You won your're only PvP vs MC of your life in GSL WC, be happy about that!
No matter if someone said that WR would never BM because he's soo cool and so Manner... after loosing from korean his lost his credit imo... Why are ppl making such a fuss over what white-ra said in that last game?? It's ridiculous, he made a comment about a build, a tiny bit of QQ and ppl are all over him, that's insane. It doesn't really matter if it was BM or not, he's still probably the best mannered player around, one of the most skilled (if not the most consistent) and one of the best to watch players in the scene. God White-Ra haters are on fire today, wtf? He's the most likeable guy around, definitely. It's not really a big deal taken in isolation. But lowers Whitera to the guys saying "he's playing protoss" or "he built marines" or similar nonsense so I'm disappointed cuz I like Whitera. He just got outplayed no reason for anything other than GG.
Ya I have to agree with this. WhiteRa is still my favorite player, but when he first complained in game against San at the GSL, I was very disappointed. I would be perfectly fine with him leaving it for the interview he later did with Kelly where he explained that it wasn't sarcastic, but in game just seemed like too much. In other words, if he said something like "the 4gate is a mindless strategy for PvP that makes really boring games" in the interview... which is pretty close to what he said, then I would be fine with it... but I don't see why he has to complain in game.
I was also hoping that he wouldn't do that again because part of the reason I like him so much is because he is such a nice guy and so well mannered, but if he did it again (I actually missed the games today, but I'm going based off what other people said) I am disappointed that he QQed in game again.
Once again, I am NOT saying he should just accept every loss and not be frustrated, but it seems like an after game interview, or just some other interview that asks about balance or PvP would be a great place to express his frustration... not in a professional game against another great player who likely outplayed him. It's just disappointing to me is all... I am not saying he is a terrible person.
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On April 10 2011 07:17 cuppatea wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 06:53 DyEnasTy wrote:On April 10 2011 06:09 s4life wrote:
What is with the foreign WC3 players? Kiwi, Naniwa, Kas, Thorzain and now Happy (look him up in sc2ranks).. they are absolutely destroying the foreign ex SC1 players in every tournament.... any theories? I think mayyybe the BW players are trying to play this like BW, but in fact SC2 rewards more creative play over mechanical. And WC3 was a game that has been associated with needing to have creative and smart game plans over macro mechanics. But thats more my opinion than any kind of fact. The top WC3 players in Europe were professional gamers who travelled all over the world competing, played at the highest level of their game and made a decent living from it. The top BW players in Europe were amateurs who juggled the game between real jobs/school, were far below the skill level of the top pros in Korea and had 1 or 2 big tournaments a year to practice for. The best RTS players on the planet are the Korean BW pros but the top WC3 pros come after that imo and ahead of the BW foreigners.
Kind of like what I was saying, yeah. As much as we love our BW players, it really is a mistake to think that they out-skilled the WC 3 pros in Europe who were actual pro-gamers. And yes, SC 2 does require less macro mechanics as well, so it's not too surprising that WC 3 players who cut their teeth on micro are able to perform so well.
Someone mentioned Happy: I'm actually really looking forward to how well this guy is going to do in tournaments. He was an absolute beast in WC 3, with perhaps the best micro in WC 3 internationally. I'd follow him closely.
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On April 10 2011 07:15 kheldorin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 07:08 Qaatar wrote:On April 10 2011 06:57 kaisr wrote:On April 10 2011 06:53 DyEnasTy wrote:On April 10 2011 06:09 s4life wrote:
What is with the foreign WC3 players? Kiwi, Naniwa, Kas, Thorzain and now Happy (look him up in sc2ranks).. they are absolutely destroying the foreign ex SC1 players in every tournament.... any theories? I think mayyybe the BW players are trying to play this like BW, but in fact SC2 rewards more creative play over mechanical. And WC3 was a game that has been associated with needing to have creative and smart game plans over macro mechanics. But thats more my opinion than any kind of fact. for the first time anyone has posted this i think i agree with tyler. It seems like hes treating it like BW where his mechanics were 1.5x as good as most ppl, especially relatively unknowns so he loves going ultra safe builds. The problem is this is sc2 where the gap between top players mechanics is pretty small. I really hate his super early robo build. It puts him slightly behind like 90% of T builds and even with the last 10%, its only advantage is that hes pretty much safe against most things T can throw at him early game. He shouldve definitely done some 1g expos or the alicia 3g attack+expo builds instead of the super early robo -.- Even though SC2 inherited BW's metagame in terms of the overall body of general RTS knowledge, it's still far from anything close to BW in terms of actual execution and knowledge of the game. However superior Tyler's mechanics are, he can't harness them without enough things to do. I can absolutely guarantee that Tyler's mechanics would win him any long macro game with 5+ bases. These are the games where a mechanical advantage will stack up into an actual advantage in game, because there are more things to do. The only problem is, in BW, a mechanical advantage will instantly give the player an edge right at the start due to the myriad of manual tasks. In SC2, it won't until the late-game is reached. I just don't see any way to guarantee a late game until people are more familiar with all possible build orders and map advantages. You're wrong. If you couldn't see the difference between MC's control of his blink stalkers and Tyler's then you're blind. There was plenty of multitasking that he needed to do in Game 2 and he failed to do it. You are really overestimating Tyler's mechanics and underestimating SC2's. No wonder you aren't impressed with MC's play. You don't know what skill is.
Having great mechanics does not mean that a player doesn't make mistakes. I know what great play is, and mechanics is separated into a few different categories. Macro/micro/multi-tasking. MC is great at one of those, and I haven't seen enough of his other (Multi-tasking and macro) to make a definitive judgment. What Nony has shown in the past in terms of mechanics is BW B-team level. What he displayed here today was terrible - but I'm still working under the assumption that the PHYSICAL capabilities of someone doesn't just disappear, right? Unless you're saying that what Nony could do in BW mechanically, he can't carry over in SC2?
I'm not impressed with MC's play precisely due to the fact that many people know he can do better (Iron was a B-teamer who was affected by nerves - had plenty of good potential). Why he doesn't try to play like mvp, going for a solid mid-game transition into late game, which is so strong for Toss, I don't know. Had he tried those things, his series against MKP would have ended differently.
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Here is a quote I probably shouldn't even respond to but...
On April 10 2011 06:55 NotSupporting wrote:
Surprised to read that staff predictions/liquid bets were so much in favor of Tyler, you might have though people would realize by now that Thorzain ain't to be underestimated. The NA server/players are miles behind EU and Korea by now and I expect the skill gap to get even wider. We are 9 million people in Sweden yet we have more top Starcraft 2 players (or equal) compared to USA who has 300 million people.
Why do so many people make the players about an issue of race/continent. I guess it is understandable with Koreans since they have a culture that supports Esports and were clearly way ahead in BW... but I really don't understand why people compare NA with EU all the time and talk about it with so much pride.
It seems like people will take any chance to brag that the pro player they live closer to beat the pro player someone else lives closer to. Do some people really not care about the player themselves, but instead where they are from? I just don't see why you take so much pride in it, as you are clearly bragging by saying "oh wow we only have 9 million people and we have better players than your 300 million!!" when I personally feel people should be saying "I really enjoy Jinro as a player over SeleCT."
Don't get me wrong... I think a bit of national pride is perfectly fine and reasonable, but some people seem to be fixated on it. The same can be said about in game races. So many people always cheer for the same race that they play rather that the really fun/interesting personalities or great game play. I know not everyone seems to focus on nationality and in game race, but there seems to be quite a lot of people that do that. If a pro player lives in the same country as them and plays the same race as them... they can be a huge asshole, but will still have fans because of that fact. It's so strange to me... BTW WhiteRa is my favorite player and he's obviously not from the same country as me, in case any one is curious.
I'm also not looking to start a flame war... people are entitled to have their opinions on players for whatever reason, but I just feel my reason makes more sense... but again, that is just my opinion. It just bothers me a bit when people try to talk down on others simply because they live in a closer vicinity to a good starcraft player....
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On April 10 2011 07:24 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2011 07:17 cuppatea wrote:On April 10 2011 06:53 DyEnasTy wrote:On April 10 2011 06:09 s4life wrote:
What is with the foreign WC3 players? Kiwi, Naniwa, Kas, Thorzain and now Happy (look him up in sc2ranks).. they are absolutely destroying the foreign ex SC1 players in every tournament.... any theories? I think mayyybe the BW players are trying to play this like BW, but in fact SC2 rewards more creative play over mechanical. And WC3 was a game that has been associated with needing to have creative and smart game plans over macro mechanics. But thats more my opinion than any kind of fact. The top WC3 players in Europe were professional gamers who travelled all over the world competing, played at the highest level of their game and made a decent living from it. The top BW players in Europe were amateurs who juggled the game between real jobs/school, were far below the skill level of the top pros in Korea and had 1 or 2 big tournaments a year to practice for. The best RTS players on the planet are the Korean BW pros but the top WC3 pros come after that imo and ahead of the BW foreigners. Kind of like what I was saying, yeah. As much as we love our BW players, it really is a mistake to think that they out-skilled the WC 3 pros in Europe who were actual pro-gamers. And yes, SC 2 does require less macro mechanics as well, so it's not too surprising that WC 3 players who cut their teeth on micro are able to perform so well. Someone mentioned Happy: I'm actually really looking forward to how well this guy is going to do in tournaments. He was an absolute beast in WC 3, with perhaps the best micro in WC 3 internationally. I'd follow him closely.
Oops, missed your post on the previous page, otherwise I'd have just quoted that. As for Happy, I'd expect him to start winning tournaments soon, he's one of the very best RTS players outside of Korea.
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On April 10 2011 06:55 NotSupporting wrote:
Surprised to read that staff predictions/liquid bets were so much in favor of Tyler, you might have though people would realize by now that Thorzain ain't to be underestimated. The NA server/players are miles behind EU and Korea by now and I expect the skill gap to get even wider. We are 9 million people in Sweden yet we have more top Starcraft 2 players (or equal) compared to USA who has 300 million people.
The number of people is irrelevant. You need to take the number of people who actually play starcraft into account..... not just the total of people.
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OK, I hate watching PvP with MC in it most of time, but WhiteRa should stop trying to be the second Idra.
Really, didn't he himself tried four gating/rushing MC in games 1 and 2? He did, and he failed, because MC is a clearly MUCH better player. Then, he goes for a macro game in the third, and then complains about 4 gate. Why would you do a 4 gate push yourself and then complain about it?
He needs to watch his own games before he starts bullshit.
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As for WC3, please, cut the crap. There's no one single consistently good WC3 player out there. A lot of decent ones, but the very top ones are former BW players.
PS In Korea that is. In Europe and America, the level of players is worse. However, even there, the better ones are former BW players, IMO.
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On April 10 2011 06:55 NotSupporting wrote:
Surprised to read that staff predictions/liquid bets were so much in favor of Tyler, you might have though people would realize by now that Thorzain ain't to be underestimated. The NA server/players are miles behind EU and Korea by now and I expect the skill gap to get even wider. We are 9 million people in Sweden yet we have more top Starcraft 2 players (or equal) compared to USA who has 300 million people.
What is it with people from small countries bringing up population all the time? I can see this being a little bit relevant for say, the World Cup where virtually everyone grows up playing soccer(football), but in SC2 it's meaningless. If you knew the total number of serious progamers playing from each country, then it's a different story.
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On April 10 2011 07:41 Xxavi wrote:
As for WC3, please, cut the crap. There's no one single consistently good WC3 player out there. A lot of decent ones, but the very top ones are former BW players.
PS In Korea that is. In Europe and America, the level of players is worse. However, even there, the better ones are former BW players, IMO.
I disagree with respect to the foreigner's scene, and I think this kind of attitude is going to be proven wrong in the days to come.
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I dunno I thought it was apparent that MC would try to 4gate in game 3. MC was up 2-0 and thus, had a lot of leeway in the series; this is a typical scenario where the leading player in the series tries to cheese or end it quick. Coupled with the fact that this map seems good for offensive 4gating as mentioned by Day9 (because of the pylon positioning), I would not have blamed WR if he had tried to blind counter 4gate and MC didn't end up 4gating.
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EPT
