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Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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s4life
Profile Joined March 2007
Peru1519 Posts
March 27 2011 02:17 GMT
#8201
I asked oGsSupernova about the lag and he told he has absolutely no problems with it.. how come?
chenchen
Profile Joined November 2010
United States1136 Posts
March 27 2011 02:19 GMT
#8202
On March 27 2011 11:08 abominable wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2011 10:56 Hierarch wrote:
On March 27 2011 10:48 Kvothe wrote:
On March 27 2011 10:37 Hierarch wrote:
On March 27 2011 10:30 Poopi wrote:
Award for worst tournament ever? ^^. Lag affects the game so bad, it isn't even worth watching.


So don't watch... But if you decide to not make ridiculous blanket statements, go read Jinro's post on the lag issues, if the koreans were being affected by lag so badly then it's because they didn't take this seriously and prepare accordingly. Also the foreigners just played better I feel, I mean case in point look at the upgrades they were getting is just one example of poor play.


Wait so if the Koreans would have prepared better they would not have lag? Jinro said there most likely was lag, and Koreans were not used to it. So the Koreans should have known better and prepared because they were being handicapped, sounds reasonable. Even if you are used to the lag, it still effects your game play. Having a second delay compared to a .1 second delay is an obvious difference.

I saw many scenarios when lag was a factor, it definitely takes away from the tournament.


It's an obvious difference but if you prepare for it it can be mitigated enough to the point of not being the only determining factor. From watching all the games it's quite obvious that the games weren't lost 100% due to inability to micro, the koreans played poorly, if lag had something to do with that by affecting their play due to being inexperienced with it then they should have prepared for it. It's not like the koreans are unaware of latency issues, they accepted the invite to this tournament with a 5 figure prize pool. This isn't BW, koreans are not always going to be better and to close I'm sure the lag affected Genius' forge so badly that it didn't start a single upgrade until the 20 minute mark zzz...

On March 27 2011 10:49 Poopi wrote:
On March 27 2011 10:37 Hierarch wrote:
On March 27 2011 10:30 Poopi wrote:
Award for worst tournament ever? ^^. Lag affects the game so bad, it isn't even worth watching.


So don't watch... But if you decide to not make ridiculous blanket statements, go read Jinro's post on the lag issues, if the koreans were being affected by lag so badly then it's because they didn't take this seriously and prepare accordingly. Also the foreigners just played better I feel, I mean case in point look at the upgrades they were getting is just one example of poor play.

I didn't watched, except that moment when MVP's reaper was killed by probes, being
not microed at all because of bad lags, asking myself how many time these terrible foreigners would need to beat someone who can't micro at all. It's even more funny that Nightend lost to someone that lag so hard :D. Yeah I read Jinro's post, then what? TeamLIQUID starleague, LIQUIDJinro... ))


If MVP had prepared for the latency like Jinro stated then it's quite manageable to know how to micro with that couple ms delay. These terrible foreigners sure are getting respect from the korean pros which is all that matters, you can think they're the worst players in the world but the other pro gamers are giving them their dues. Also are you insinuating that Jinro is lying or misleading people because he's part of team liquid? Did you forget that he played from the korean server and has personal experience with the latency issues...

Anyways I'm done arguing on this subject, it's obvious some people aren't going to give credit where credit is due...


QFT.

these best of 3's are 50% luck already, plus we've just had a spanking new patch with pretty big changes and the 'foreigner' styles are different to the korean style - so they're obviously not familiar with it.

foreigners have always done pretty well against koreans in tournaments outside korea. look at the IEM and squirtle being smashed by socke.

the GSL is a different story. i think the nerves really get to the homesick players.


Thanks for pointing out IEM, where literally second tier Koreans swept the top three spots.

Lol, foreigners never really did well against top tier Korean pros in tournaments outside Korea, unless lag really threw off the Koreans (or in the case of dreamhack, jetlag).
powerade = dragoon blood
Me1234
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany219 Posts
March 27 2011 02:19 GMT
#8203
I think its just like jinro said, its not as bad as people say but you need to prepare for it.

so I think its players on fault if he fails to prepare for that
Uhm?
Hierarch
Profile Joined February 2011
United States2197 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-27 02:30:59
March 27 2011 02:20 GMT
#8204
On March 27 2011 11:15 Poopi wrote:
&Hierarch : if you have ever played some online game with lags, you would know that there is no such thing as : yeaaah uuuh I lag so I just have to adapt and it'll be fine. Lags ruins all. I wouldn't even play while lagging (i habe experimented that in sc2 sometimes) cuz it's not even funny how that's not playable at all. But there is money so korean play, that's how it works. And I don't say Jinro is lying, I just say that since Jinro is Liquid he won't discredit this tournament, he says that there are lag issues but that koreans may not have adapted to it. Thing is that you can't adapt. And yes he has played from Korea, and guess what? He lost. Almost everyone who played from Korea lost, in both TSL/FXOpen. I don't want to discredit the players, I'm just saying that people shouldn't be like : ooooh people were so wrong, any foreigner that played in the GSL struggled a lot, every foreigners that were in IEM world got crushed by B-teamers, buut look foreigners crush every korean in some onoine tournament, they are so better than koreans ^^^^^^. But no. Believe me, or not, if you want, but results from lans tournaments speak enough.


Sure I understand that it does make a difference, the only games I have played with lag are FPS such as Call of Duty, It can obviously affect me but I've played with my friends from EU and they're all on full bars of connection while I'm on half and after a couple games I adjust for the lag, sure I can't play as well as I would on my home server, but I can still play my game and almost as well as long as I adjust my play and practice.

Also it's not like the foreigners played like utter crap and won only because of that, the foreigners played extremely well, the only argument against that could be the Goody series where he honestly didn't play that well, but to be fair neither did Nestea.

On March 27 2011 11:19 chenchen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2011 11:08 abominable wrote:
On March 27 2011 10:56 Hierarch wrote:
On March 27 2011 10:48 Kvothe wrote:
On March 27 2011 10:37 Hierarch wrote:
On March 27 2011 10:30 Poopi wrote:
Award for worst tournament ever? ^^. Lag affects the game so bad, it isn't even worth watching.


So don't watch... But if you decide to not make ridiculous blanket statements, go read Jinro's post on the lag issues, if the koreans were being affected by lag so badly then it's because they didn't take this seriously and prepare accordingly. Also the foreigners just played better I feel, I mean case in point look at the upgrades they were getting is just one example of poor play.


Wait so if the Koreans would have prepared better they would not have lag? Jinro said there most likely was lag, and Koreans were not used to it. So the Koreans should have known better and prepared because they were being handicapped, sounds reasonable. Even if you are used to the lag, it still effects your game play. Having a second delay compared to a .1 second delay is an obvious difference.

I saw many scenarios when lag was a factor, it definitely takes away from the tournament.


It's an obvious difference but if you prepare for it it can be mitigated enough to the point of not being the only determining factor. From watching all the games it's quite obvious that the games weren't lost 100% due to inability to micro, the koreans played poorly, if lag had something to do with that by affecting their play due to being inexperienced with it then they should have prepared for it. It's not like the koreans are unaware of latency issues, they accepted the invite to this tournament with a 5 figure prize pool. This isn't BW, koreans are not always going to be better and to close I'm sure the lag affected Genius' forge so badly that it didn't start a single upgrade until the 20 minute mark zzz...

On March 27 2011 10:49 Poopi wrote:
On March 27 2011 10:37 Hierarch wrote:
On March 27 2011 10:30 Poopi wrote:
Award for worst tournament ever? ^^. Lag affects the game so bad, it isn't even worth watching.


So don't watch... But if you decide to not make ridiculous blanket statements, go read Jinro's post on the lag issues, if the koreans were being affected by lag so badly then it's because they didn't take this seriously and prepare accordingly. Also the foreigners just played better I feel, I mean case in point look at the upgrades they were getting is just one example of poor play.

I didn't watched, except that moment when MVP's reaper was killed by probes, being
not microed at all because of bad lags, asking myself how many time these terrible foreigners would need to beat someone who can't micro at all. It's even more funny that Nightend lost to someone that lag so hard :D. Yeah I read Jinro's post, then what? TeamLIQUID starleague, LIQUIDJinro... ))


If MVP had prepared for the latency like Jinro stated then it's quite manageable to know how to micro with that couple ms delay. These terrible foreigners sure are getting respect from the korean pros which is all that matters, you can think they're the worst players in the world but the other pro gamers are giving them their dues. Also are you insinuating that Jinro is lying or misleading people because he's part of team liquid? Did you forget that he played from the korean server and has personal experience with the latency issues...

Anyways I'm done arguing on this subject, it's obvious some people aren't going to give credit where credit is due...


QFT.

these best of 3's are 50% luck already, plus we've just had a spanking new patch with pretty big changes and the 'foreigner' styles are different to the korean style - so they're obviously not familiar with it.

foreigners have always done pretty well against koreans in tournaments outside korea. look at the IEM and squirtle being smashed by socke.

the GSL is a different story. i think the nerves really get to the homesick players.


Thanks for pointing out IEM, where literally second tier Koreans swept the top three spots.

Lol, foreigners never really did well against top tier Korean pros in tournaments outside Korea, unless lag really threw off the Koreans (or in the case of dreamhack, jetlag).


What's your point? They played well at IEM and some of the other players didn't play their best, ie: qxc. Also to say "second tier" is just stupid, I guess all those "second tier" players from the GSTL who beat all the "1st tier" players just got lucky or something...
MC|NonY|HerO|NaDa|MVP|DRG|Ret|Sen|Dimaga|Leenock
AtrumX
Profile Joined August 2010
United States17 Posts
March 27 2011 02:24 GMT
#8205
How is the lag from Europe any different than the lag from Korea? It seems like most people here don't realize fiber cables run both East AND West. Korea and Europe have about the same distance to the US.
Mios
Profile Joined April 2010
United States686 Posts
March 27 2011 02:28 GMT
#8206
None of this would be an issue if Blizzard put LAN mode into SC2, which would allow for this thing called a Neutral Host via virtual LAN. In Wc3 we had Garena, in BW we had iCCup. I really fucking hate Bliz when I read about shit like this. They really didn't think international online tournaments would create problems with their segregated infrastructure?

As good as TSL is, no LAN is holding it back.
no LAN and intercontinental bnet = T_T
Chicane
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7875 Posts
March 27 2011 02:29 GMT
#8207
On March 27 2011 11:24 AtrumX wrote:
How is the lag from Europe any different than the lag from Korea? It seems like most people here don't realize fiber cables run both East AND West. Korea and Europe have about the same distance to the US.


I don't think this is the best place to learn about networking around the world... but to put it simply... it's not only a matter of distance...
chasmofcrisis
Profile Joined October 2010
60 Posts
March 27 2011 02:30 GMT
#8208
I'm not sure how to quote from one thread to the other but after losing to Idra in GCPL 3rd/4th Jinro himself said "I didnt have much latency...Just mistakes (which is usually what decides every game between good players, who fucks up less)" I think people are way overblowing the lag situation.
HeaDStrong
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Scotland785 Posts
March 27 2011 02:30 GMT
#8209
So to play a game of sc2 you need to connect to the bnet server... right.

But how is the information being exchanged? Someone mentioned p2p or does all the info go through the bnet servers, which kinda wouldn't make sense because it would always be slower than p2p.. if it the case though the only explanation would be to design the game such that is harder pirate.

If it does exchange in-game data between players via p2p then all the lag talk is nonsense.
s4life
Profile Joined March 2007
Peru1519 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-27 02:34:48
March 27 2011 02:31 GMT
#8210
On March 27 2011 11:15 Poopi wrote:
&Hierarch : if you have ever played some online game with lags, you would know that there is no such thing as : yeaaah uuuh I lag so I just have to adapt and it'll be fine. Lags ruins all. I wouldn't even play while lagging (i habe experimented that in sc2 sometimes) cuz it's not even funny how that's not playable at all. But there is money so korean play, that's how it works. And I don't say Jinro is lying, I just say that since Jinro is Liquid he won't discredit this tournament, he says that there are lag issues but that koreans may not have adapted to it. Thing is that you can't adapt. .


So Jinro is not a liar per se, he's just lying because he has invested interests in TL uh?
How comfortable 't was for all the fanboys when Koreans were winning -- the world is as it should be I guess --- but now that they started losing a few here and there, lag is used as an scapegoat for every lost game, since ALL Koreans after all, are invincible. How do you explain the lag effect then in Supernova's run in the FXOpen; he's not just winning, he's tearing up apart the competition .. it's not even close.
godemperor
Profile Joined October 2010
Belgium2043 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-27 02:39:07
March 27 2011 02:36 GMT
#8211
On March 27 2011 11:31 s4life wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2011 11:15 Poopi wrote:
&Hierarch : if you have ever played some online game with lags, you would know that there is no such thing as : yeaaah uuuh I lag so I just have to adapt and it'll be fine. Lags ruins all. I wouldn't even play while lagging (i habe experimented that in sc2 sometimes) cuz it's not even funny how that's not playable at all. But there is money so korean play, that's how it works. And I don't say Jinro is lying, I just say that since Jinro is Liquid he won't discredit this tournament, he says that there are lag issues but that koreans may not have adapted to it. Thing is that you can't adapt. .


So Jinro is not a liar per se, he's just lying because he has invested interests in TL uh?
How comfortable 't was for all the fanboys when Koreans were winning -- the world is as it should be I guess --- but now that they started losing a few here and there, lag is used as an scapegoat for every lose, since ALL Koreans after all, are invincible. How do you explain then Supernova's run in the FXOpen, he's not just winning, he's tearing up apart the competition .. it's not even close.

How dare anyone call Jinro a liar! He can tell me the sun goes around the sun and i would believe him.
Getting back to point, while lag is definitely an issue (as seen most clearly in the game 2 of genius in which HT stood next to the marines for 4 sec before storm started appearing and laying out ffs in slow motion), some player's play (IMmvp) just seem completely uninspired. I do feel a bit sry for the koreans, but lag is only partly to be blamed.
btw, today TSL+FXO=awesome. Also dont forget Zenio, also looking very strong. Too bad that MC, MKP and Idra are all out.
SniXSniPe
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1938 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-27 02:39:54
March 27 2011 02:39 GMT
#8212
On March 27 2011 11:31 s4life wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 27 2011 11:15 Poopi wrote:
&Hierarch : if you have ever played some online game with lags, you would know that there is no such thing as : yeaaah uuuh I lag so I just have to adapt and it'll be fine. Lags ruins all. I wouldn't even play while lagging (i habe experimented that in sc2 sometimes) cuz it's not even funny how that's not playable at all. But there is money so korean play, that's how it works. And I don't say Jinro is lying, I just say that since Jinro is Liquid he won't discredit this tournament, he says that there are lag issues but that koreans may not have adapted to it. Thing is that you can't adapt. .


So Jinro is not a liar per se, he's just lying because he has invested interests in TL uh?
How comfortable 't was for all the fanboys when Koreans were winning -- the world is as it should be I guess --- but now that they started losing a few here and there, lag is used as an scapegoat for every lost game, since ALL Koreans after all, are invincible. How do you explain the lag effect then in Supernova's run in the FXOpen; he's not just winning, he's tearing up apart the competition .. it's not even close.


Well, Idra says Korea -> Usa is not so great (and is pretty bad) compared to Euro -> Usa (which is not that bad).

Does this counter Jinro's statement equally!!?!?!?

But seriously, there can be lag, and there might not be. We don't know, and if the players don't say then that's that. We'll just have to wait for GSL and NASL to see whether lag affected it much, now won't we?
Logo2010
Profile Joined October 2010
509 Posts
March 27 2011 02:39 GMT
#8213
On March 27 2011 11:08 abominable wrote:
...
foreigners have always done pretty well against koreans in tournaments outside korea. look at the IEM and squirtle being smashed by socke.

the GSL is a different story. i think the nerves really get to the homesick players.


Uh what? Koreans took 1st 2nd and 3rd.
Angra
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States2652 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-27 02:57:47
March 27 2011 02:39 GMT
#8214
On March 27 2011 11:17 s4life wrote:
I asked oGsSupernova about the lag and he told he has absolutely no problems with it.. how come?


On March 27 2011 11:31 s4life wrote:
So Jinro is not a liar per se, he's just lying because he has invested interests in TL uh?
How comfortable 't was for all the fanboys when Koreans were winning -- the world is as it should be I guess --- but now that they started losing a few here and there, lag is used as an scapegoat for every lost game, since ALL Koreans after all, are invincible. How do you explain the lag effect then in Supernova's run in the FXOpen; he's not just winning, he's tearing up apart the competition .. it's not even close.


Not everyone is playing on the same computer and internet connection? I have a European friend who gets about 20-30ms on US servers for various games, but I get about 400ms on EU servers for various games. Just because 1 Korean doesn't have as much lag as all the others doesn't mean that they all don't.
entropius
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1046 Posts
March 27 2011 02:42 GMT
#8215
On March 27 2011 11:17 Vezex wrote:
all this stuff about lag and koreans playing poorly

even if its not 100% true, still going to be in the back of my mind when I'm watching

also seeing adel 2-0 MVP just kills a lot of interest in it for me (not a balance complaint please don't ban me)


Adel played very well, tbh. I just rewatched Adel vs. MVP Game 1, and it's a lesson in How to Use Blink Well and army movement. Yes, MVP made some mistakes; maybe some of them were due to lag. But Adel played well, and saying "oh, MVP just lost due to lag" takes away some well-deserved glory from Adel: he made excellent army movement choices, where to engage, when to engage, etc., and just beat the shit out of MVP's marine/marauder ball by forcing it to stim too much and outmaneuvering it.
HolyArrow
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7116 Posts
March 27 2011 02:44 GMT
#8216
Yeah, I'd rather cut all lag discussions short and wait just a little longer for the GSL World tournament. Then we'll get a far better measure of how foreigners fare.
Kennigit *
Profile Blog Joined October 2006
Canada19447 Posts
March 27 2011 02:45 GMT
#8217
On March 27 2011 11:28 Mios wrote:
As good as TSL is, no LAN is holding it back.

We you expecting us to run ethernet cable from korea to germany ^^ ?
godemperor
Profile Joined October 2010
Belgium2043 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-03-27 02:48:03
March 27 2011 02:46 GMT
#8218
On March 27 2011 11:44 HolyArrow wrote:
Yeah, I'd rather cut all lag discussions short and wait just a little longer for the GSL World tournament. Then we'll get a far better measure of how foreigners fare.

There is also dreamhack coming soon with MC, jinor, huk, and maybe more KR players. But i do like online tournament due to its randomness, im glad TSL was not like IEM where a second rate KR player tore through the top EU and NA players.
KoshkaTV
Profile Joined October 2010
United States430 Posts
March 27 2011 02:52 GMT
#8219
The results today are shocking.... does anyone have any links to what the Korean netizens are saying about it?

www.KoshkaTV.com
sYz-Adrenaline
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States1850 Posts
March 27 2011 02:55 GMT
#8220
Nooo my bracket is destroyed!
Can you feel the rush?
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