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Players such as Jinro, HuK, and Adelscott did not apply for this tour, so don't ask why they aren't on this list. DIMAGA, Kas, and LaLush turned applications in late so they will not appear either. Please take some time to learn who exactly applied. Please inform yourself about who applied and who didn't. |
I like how several people state that the "weaker players will be drawn out" from the league in the first season and then the people who deserves a spot will be able to qualify through the 1024 people bracket easliy. If you compare winning 4/9 games in a full season (I think it's about what it would take to stay in the top 6 spots) to getting top 16? in 1024 tournament, where you have to win Ro1024, Ro512, Ro256, Ro128, Ro64, Ro32, in a row.. it's alot harder to take all those games back-to-back where you can't lose a single game.
So saying that Demuslim will be in easily if he "deserves" it, is clearly a wrong statement, since it's ALOT easier to just get a spot in the league from some people that choose you because you're NorthAmerican and after that just keep staying there. There's a few player that comes to mind that have WAY lesser experience and not even halfly on par with demu, even if he would be playing with 1 hand.
/rantoff
I still think it's a great league with very strong players (most of them), and still gonna pay the 20$? to watch it because I love starcraft, just think the invites should have been handed out to the deserving people. 
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On March 31 2011 15:14 SiguR wrote:
SiguR's post
What are we supposed to think when: DeMusliM has withdrawn from every major tournament over the past few months due to his injury, hasn't competed in anything or been active at all, has never come out and publicly stated "hey guys I'll be back playing in a week," then makes an application video where he's standing in front of a hospital wearing a cast and the first thing he says is "I had another accident with my hand."
Do you think we're supposed to talk to every single player and make sure they can play? Why does DeMusliM need special treatment that we have to go specifically talk to him and see how his hand is doing and if he's able to play? No offense, but this is simply an unrealistic expectation. Take your post and apply this to a job opening.
If you're applying to a job, are you just going to sit back and wait for your employer to come to you, or are you going to be proactive and make sure you do everything in your power to show your employer that you deserve the job?
We didn't feel that DeMusliM would be a good choice for our league due to his injury keeping him out of commission basically since December.
As for NightEnd -- once again: Romania is a "high risk" country, as are Russia, Ukraine, and Poland (just because Romania is in the EU doesn't mean they have a VISA waiver program... which they don't, which makes it automatically more difficult to get a VISA to the US). We didn't want to have multiple "high risk" players in the league due to obvious reasons. What if more than 1 of them qualifies for the finals, can't get a VISA, and don't show up? That ruins our live event completely.
White-Ra has demonstrated an ability to come to the US, BRAT_OK showed us his VISA, as did Strelok. So we were really left with two players (MaNa and NightEnd) from "high risk" countries. We only wanted to select 1; we chose MaNa. As I said multiple times before -- I should have explicitly stated the need for a VISA. I mistakenly thought it was obvious that people outside the US would ask about it considering the contract states that you must guarantee your ability to enter the US. It was my fault for not explicitly stating that they needed a VISA.
I'm not going to post more about the issue since everyone has said their piece. GL!
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I'm not crazy about the decision to place the players in the different groups to create drama or whatever. I can understand having an all invitational for the first season but now it feels more like a bunch of show-matches instead of a serious competition when they do it like that. That said, I'm over most of my negative feelings about this and will look forward to seeing the games.
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On March 31 2011 17:12 Xeris wrote:What are we supposed to think when: DeMusliM has withdrawn from every major tournament over the past few months due to his injury, hasn't competed in anything or been active at all, has never come out and publicly stated "hey guys I'll be back playing in a week," then makes an application video where he's standing in front of a hospital wearing a cast and the first thing he says is "I had another accident with my hand." Do you think we're supposed to talk to every single player and make sure they can play? Why does DeMusliM need special treatment that we have to go specifically talk to him and see how his hand is doing and if he's able to play? No offense, but this is simply an unrealistic expectation. Take your post and apply this to a job opening. If you're applying to a job, are you just going to sit back and wait for your employer to come to you, or are you going to be proactive and make sure you do everything in your power to show your employer that you deserve the job? We didn't feel that DeMusliM would be a good choice for our league due to his injury keeping him out of commission basically since December. As for NightEnd -- once again: Romania is a "high risk" country, as are Russia, Ukraine, and Poland (just because Romania is in the EU doesn't mean they have a VISA waiver program... which they don't, which makes it automatically more difficult to get a VISA to the US). We didn't want to have multiple "high risk" players in the league due to obvious reasons. What if more than 1 of them qualifies for the finals, can't get a VISA, and don't show up? That ruins our live event completely. White-Ra has demonstrated an ability to come to the US, BRAT_OK showed us his VISA, as did Strelok. So we were really left with two players (MaNa and NightEnd) from "high risk" countries. We only wanted to select 1; we chose MaNa. As I said multiple times before -- I should have explicitly stated the need for a VISA. I mistakenly thought it was obvious that people outside the US would ask about it considering the contract states that you must guarantee your ability to enter the US. It was my fault for not explicitly stating that they needed a VISA. I'm not going to post more about the issue since everyone has said their piece. GL!
Dood, no offense, first of all I know what putting hours into organising something takes (especially of these proportions), so respect for that and I hope it all comes to fruition so we can all enjoy it.
On the other hand, I can't wrap my head about your post in any way. Would you apply for a job, be accepted, only to tell the employer a week later "oh btw l-o-l, I can't really work cos I'm injured"? What sense would it make for him to apply if he wouldn't be 100% sure he could play. Especially don't judge him from a video that's been described as "for-presentational-purposes-only" (not certain on this, I admit, but this is my understanding). He tried to spice things up for hype and all, and what good did that do to him in the end?
Second point, yeah, Romania 15 years ago is a moderate risk country, today - no, not really. And even if there would be 'issues', if you actually *want* to invite a skilled player, why not clear things up with him, give him a week to solve his issues and draw the line after.
Of course you're not expected to talk to every player, but if it actually represents your desire to have a diverse, best-of-the-best player pool, why would you not take the effort of clearing things up with the 9-10 players that might have issues?
Again, I respect what you're doing and moreso, I understand that this discussion is pointless because there is no coming back from the announcement (obviously). Still, I think it would be respectful to some players if the "NASL comittee" admitted that some procedural mistakes were made and people that should have been in were unfairly left out. At least that's my view on this, so that's why I'm posting.
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Overall pretty good choices. Obviously the invites were not based entirely on skill or potential quality of the games, but I don't think that what the tournament organisers were looking for as explained in Xeris' post. Really looking forward to see how the lesser known players do, SC2 is reasonably volatile at the moment and anything could happen.
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I don't know enough about the non-Korean scene to have an opinion on the quality of the players accepted, but as for the Koreans I am pleased overall. Given that only Startale and oGs applied en masse the only modification I would have made (while preserving racial and team balance) was putting in bomber over rainbow , who simply isn't that good anymore.
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On March 31 2011 17:25 n0ise wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 17:12 Xeris wrote:On March 31 2011 15:14 SiguR wrote:
SiguR's post
What are we supposed to think when: DeMusliM has withdrawn from every major tournament over the past few months due to his injury, hasn't competed in anything or been active at all, has never come out and publicly stated "hey guys I'll be back playing in a week," then makes an application video where he's standing in front of a hospital wearing a cast and the first thing he says is "I had another accident with my hand." Do you think we're supposed to talk to every single player and make sure they can play? Why does DeMusliM need special treatment that we have to go specifically talk to him and see how his hand is doing and if he's able to play? No offense, but this is simply an unrealistic expectation. Take your post and apply this to a job opening. If you're applying to a job, are you just going to sit back and wait for your employer to come to you, or are you going to be proactive and make sure you do everything in your power to show your employer that you deserve the job? We didn't feel that DeMusliM would be a good choice for our league due to his injury keeping him out of commission basically since December. As for NightEnd -- once again: Romania is a "high risk" country, as are Russia, Ukraine, and Poland (just because Romania is in the EU doesn't mean they have a VISA waiver program... which they don't, which makes it automatically more difficult to get a VISA to the US). We didn't want to have multiple "high risk" players in the league due to obvious reasons. What if more than 1 of them qualifies for the finals, can't get a VISA, and don't show up? That ruins our live event completely. White-Ra has demonstrated an ability to come to the US, BRAT_OK showed us his VISA, as did Strelok. So we were really left with two players (MaNa and NightEnd) from "high risk" countries. We only wanted to select 1; we chose MaNa. As I said multiple times before -- I should have explicitly stated the need for a VISA. I mistakenly thought it was obvious that people outside the US would ask about it considering the contract states that you must guarantee your ability to enter the US. It was my fault for not explicitly stating that they needed a VISA. I'm not going to post more about the issue since everyone has said their piece. GL! Dood, no offense, first of all I know what putting hours into organising something takes (especially of these proportions), so respect for that and I hope it all comes to fruition so we can all enjoy it. On the other hand, I can't wrap my head about your post in any way. Would you apply for a job, be accepted, only to tell the employer a week later " oh btw l-o-l, I can't really work cos I'm injured"? What sense would it make for him to apply if he wouldn't be 100% sure he could play. Especially don't judge him from a video that's been described as "for-presentational-purposes-only" (not certain on this, I admit, but this is my understanding). He tried to spice things up for hype and all, and what good did that do to him in the end? Second point, yeah, Romania 15 years ago is a moderate risk country, today - no, not really. And even if there would be 'issues', if you actually *want* to invite a skilled player, why not clear things up with him, give him a week to solve his issues and draw the line after. Of course you're not expected to talk to every player, but if it actually represents your desire to have a diverse, best-of-the-best player pool, why would you not take the effort of clearing things up with the 9-10 players that might have issues? Again, I respect what you're doing and moreso, I understand that this discussion is pointless because there is no coming back from the announcement (obviously). Still, I think it would be respectful to some players if the "NASL comittee" admitted that some procedural mistakes were made and people that should have been in were unfairly left out. At least that's my view on this, so that's why I'm posting.
The thing is that they aren't mistakes in their eyes (or mine). Some think they made a mistake, some don't. Some think it should fall on NASL, the players or both. It should fall on both, but the players need to be held responsible too.
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All I can make from this is that there's literally zero communication between Demuslim and the rest of the team. It's pretty shitty from Incontrol to cut a team mate from the league based on an assumption, not bothering to talk to him regarding the issue. That Inc is a far less accomplished SC2 player and managed to give himself a spot instead doesn't make it any prettier. I'd be pissed if I was Demuslim tbh.
Xeris talks about giving Demu special treatment. Hell to the no, how about treating it as any other application? If a player submits an application it is because they intend to participate and believes he'll be able to do so. Rejecting him based on an assumption, THAT is special treatment.
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On March 31 2011 01:52 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 01:26 rO_Or wrote:On March 31 2011 01:19 Cathasaigh wrote:On March 31 2011 01:12 rO_Or wrote:On March 30 2011 23:45 KaveX wrote:On March 30 2011 23:26 feanor1 wrote:
Are MLB, NFL, and NBA seasons illegitimate? Honestly? US sports actually does tend to be more about entertainment than about 100% fairness compared to European sports. Here in Europe, something like this would be unthinkable, also because, unlike US sports, the clubs are less strongly tied to the league. If Germany and England were put into the same World Cup group instead of a drawing, it would be a huge deal for us Europeans. Thinking about it, it might really be more of a cultural thing. Anyway, like I already said, I don't even consider it that big of a deal in NASL's first season. Might be bad for some players, but it's okay. The thing is just that I would be very upset if IEM or WCG did it, though, and to a slightly smaller extent GSL and MLG. Therefore, I concluded that it should be NASL's objective to also become one of the competitions that have so much meaning behind them that nothing should be rigged for entertainment's sake. It's up to them to either pursue this strategy or to focus on providing super-exciting games and not caring about the rest. ? Have you ever witnessed the absurd amount of flopping in EU football? "Fairness" does not come into play at all... From what I've seen the leagues themselves seemed to at least try to be more fair in general than U.S. sports, the games not always as you pointed out. But you can also take this as you will because I really don't follow them that much I mostly follow U.S. sports. Yea, I follow US sports mainly as well but many sports in the US impose fines at least for unfair or dishonest play such as flopping in basketball while in football (soccer) its like an accepted part of the game to cheat (flop). Just my opinion ;\ The difference is that American leagues are more about the show. Teams buy into the league and can not be relegated, no matter how bad they play. European football in comparison is serious business. It is all about the results, not about the show. If teams play bad they get relegated. They can go all the way down many leagues until the club becomes meaningless. On the other hand top league placements mean clubs can get into european cups for the next season. Because of that its secondary if someone plays fair or spectacular or whatever, you just play to win. So in a way the bigger cheating is related to the bigger competetiveness of the leagues. The fans are much more serious than American fans as well. Defeats of their clubs are felt like personal defeats. They can even become violent when their teams play very bad. But the jubilation after victory is much bigger as well. For many people football is much more than a game.
Really? You think European fans are more serious than American fans? Make more generalizations please... It's different for each sport.
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On March 31 2011 17:25 n0ise wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 17:12 Xeris wrote:On March 31 2011 15:14 SiguR wrote:
SiguR's post
What are we supposed to think when: DeMusliM has withdrawn from every major tournament over the past few months due to his injury, hasn't competed in anything or been active at all, has never come out and publicly stated "hey guys I'll be back playing in a week," then makes an application video where he's standing in front of a hospital wearing a cast and the first thing he says is "I had another accident with my hand." Do you think we're supposed to talk to every single player and make sure they can play? Why does DeMusliM need special treatment that we have to go specifically talk to him and see how his hand is doing and if he's able to play? No offense, but this is simply an unrealistic expectation. Take your post and apply this to a job opening. If you're applying to a job, are you just going to sit back and wait for your employer to come to you, or are you going to be proactive and make sure you do everything in your power to show your employer that you deserve the job? We didn't feel that DeMusliM would be a good choice for our league due to his injury keeping him out of commission basically since December. As for NightEnd -- once again: Romania is a "high risk" country, as are Russia, Ukraine, and Poland (just because Romania is in the EU doesn't mean they have a VISA waiver program... which they don't, which makes it automatically more difficult to get a VISA to the US). We didn't want to have multiple "high risk" players in the league due to obvious reasons. What if more than 1 of them qualifies for the finals, can't get a VISA, and don't show up? That ruins our live event completely. White-Ra has demonstrated an ability to come to the US, BRAT_OK showed us his VISA, as did Strelok. So we were really left with two players (MaNa and NightEnd) from "high risk" countries. We only wanted to select 1; we chose MaNa. As I said multiple times before -- I should have explicitly stated the need for a VISA. I mistakenly thought it was obvious that people outside the US would ask about it considering the contract states that you must guarantee your ability to enter the US. It was my fault for not explicitly stating that they needed a VISA. I'm not going to post more about the issue since everyone has said their piece. GL! Dood, no offense, first of all I know what putting hours into organising something takes (especially of these proportions), so respect for that and I hope it all comes to fruition so we can all enjoy it. On the other hand, I can't wrap my head about your post in any way. Would you apply for a job, be accepted, only to tell the employer a week later " oh btw l-o-l, I can't really work cos I'm injured"? What sense would it make for him to apply if he wouldn't be 100% sure he could play. Especially don't judge him from a video that's been described as "for-presentational-purposes-only" (not certain on this, I admit, but this is my understanding). He tried to spice things up for hype and all, and what good did that do to him in the end? Second point, yeah, Romania 15 years ago is a moderate risk country, today - no, not really. And even if there would be 'issues', if you actually *want* to invite a skilled player, why not clear things up with him, give him a week to solve his issues and draw the line after. Of course you're not expected to talk to every player, but if it actually represents your desire to have a diverse, best-of-the-best player pool, why would you not take the effort of clearing things up with the 9-10 players that might have issues? Again, I respect what you're doing and moreso, I understand that this discussion is pointless because there is no coming back from the announcement (obviously). Still, I think it would be respectful to some players if the "NASL comittee" admitted that some procedural mistakes were made and people that should have been in were unfairly left out. At least that's my view on this, so that's why I'm posting.
Roughly 50% of the jobs i have applied to i do not really have the required qulifications for. Some of the applications to NASL quite honestly obviously do not have the qualifications either (meaning results/skill). Saying "he applied, therefore he obviously is good enogh to play" is just wrong.
Fact: Both DeMuslim and NightEnd are "risk" players from NASL's perspective. You might argue that thier skill is high enough to be in NASL and even Xercis are not disagreeing with that. But they are also risky, they should have realised this themself (DeMuslim has pulled out of tournaments recently, Nightend has apparently been denied entry by blizzard in the past) and made clear in thier application (either video or mail) that whatever past problems there have been is now under control.
If i was bus driver with a know public history of alcoholism i would make damn sure to mention that it is no longer a problem and provide whatever evidence i can of that if i applied to a new job. If i was Hockey player with an injury that has prevented me from playing recently i would provide whatever proof i could of it being healed when applying to a new team.
Proof of concept: Brat'OK has had troubles with visas in the past, therefore for this tournament he made sure to provide proof of a visa.
Peter "Foppa" Forsberg, NHL hockey player, has made more comebacks than i can count and his bad foot has stopped him every time. He was able to make new comebacks because he was able to convince the teams that it was better each time and he was worth the risk. You think any team would have accepted him if he called them from the hospital starting the application with "well my foot just crashed again so i just had surgery"...
I disagree with any big mistakes having been made, the only mistake is that when asking players to provide proof of them being able to attend a US finals not specifying that this included being able to travel to US. But really, how is that not a given? You judge players based on thier applications and results, personal interviews was never on the table and was probably not possible when selecting 50 players. I have been involved in sorting out job applications and job interviews and it takes an insane amount of time to plan and do.
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On March 31 2011 17:12 Xeris wrote:What are we supposed to think when: DeMusliM has withdrawn from every major tournament over the past few months due to his injury, hasn't competed in anything or been active at all, has never come out and publicly stated "hey guys I'll be back playing in a week," then makes an application video where he's standing in front of a hospital wearing a cast and the first thing he says is "I had another accident with my hand." Do you think we're supposed to talk to every single player and make sure they can play? Why does DeMusliM need special treatment that we have to go specifically talk to him and see how his hand is doing and if he's able to play? No offense, but this is simply an unrealistic expectation. Take your post and apply this to a job opening. If you're applying to a job, are you just going to sit back and wait for your employer to come to you, or are you going to be proactive and make sure you do everything in your power to show your employer that you deserve the job? We didn't feel that DeMusliM would be a good choice for our league due to his injury keeping him out of commission basically since December. As for NightEnd -- once again: Romania is a "high risk" country, as are Russia, Ukraine, and Poland (just because Romania is in the EU doesn't mean they have a VISA waiver program... which they don't, which makes it automatically more difficult to get a VISA to the US). We didn't want to have multiple "high risk" players in the league due to obvious reasons. What if more than 1 of them qualifies for the finals, can't get a VISA, and don't show up? That ruins our live event completely. White-Ra has demonstrated an ability to come to the US, BRAT_OK showed us his VISA, as did Strelok. So we were really left with two players (MaNa and NightEnd) from "high risk" countries. We only wanted to select 1; we chose MaNa. As I said multiple times before -- I should have explicitly stated the need for a VISA. I mistakenly thought it was obvious that people outside the US would ask about it considering the contract states that you must guarantee your ability to enter the US. It was my fault for not explicitly stating that they needed a VISA. I'm not going to post more about the issue since everyone has said their piece. GL!
Yes I would expect you to talk to one of the best and most popular players in the world how his recovery was going it only takes a PM or an email. A job interview goes both ways you want the best employee too. You said the VOD wasnt part of the job application and was to show personality, DeMuslims did that in spades. As he said it came back and bit him in his arse.
Just because a country doesn't have a visa waiver program it doesn't mean its "high risk". It just means you have to go through a longer and more costly process because they havent yet put agreements in place for sharing security details such as criminal convictions etc. You can be within a visa waiver program country and be much higer risk of refusal of entry if say you had been found in possession of cannabis in the UK for instance.
Putting the Ukraine and Russia in the same category as Poland and Romania is madness. Nightend is a EU citizen he can live and work ANYWHERE in the EU. Germany, UK, France. Its like saying a US citizen is the same as a Brazilian. If there was a SC tournament in Romania then do you honestly think US citizens would be "high risk" in getting a visa to go to Romania? Because theres no agreement in place yet you would also have to apply in the same way.
You seem to have got paranoid about visas because of the problems players have had recently trying to get into the EU of which Romania is a part.
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On March 31 2011 19:09 DND_Enkil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 17:25 n0ise wrote:On March 31 2011 17:12 Xeris wrote:On March 31 2011 15:14 SiguR wrote:
SiguR's post
What are we supposed to think when: DeMusliM has withdrawn from every major tournament over the past few months due to his injury, hasn't competed in anything or been active at all, has never come out and publicly stated "hey guys I'll be back playing in a week," then makes an application video where he's standing in front of a hospital wearing a cast and the first thing he says is "I had another accident with my hand." Do you think we're supposed to talk to every single player and make sure they can play? Why does DeMusliM need special treatment that we have to go specifically talk to him and see how his hand is doing and if he's able to play? No offense, but this is simply an unrealistic expectation. Take your post and apply this to a job opening. If you're applying to a job, are you just going to sit back and wait for your employer to come to you, or are you going to be proactive and make sure you do everything in your power to show your employer that you deserve the job? We didn't feel that DeMusliM would be a good choice for our league due to his injury keeping him out of commission basically since December. As for NightEnd -- once again: Romania is a "high risk" country, as are Russia, Ukraine, and Poland (just because Romania is in the EU doesn't mean they have a VISA waiver program... which they don't, which makes it automatically more difficult to get a VISA to the US). We didn't want to have multiple "high risk" players in the league due to obvious reasons. What if more than 1 of them qualifies for the finals, can't get a VISA, and don't show up? That ruins our live event completely. White-Ra has demonstrated an ability to come to the US, BRAT_OK showed us his VISA, as did Strelok. So we were really left with two players (MaNa and NightEnd) from "high risk" countries. We only wanted to select 1; we chose MaNa. As I said multiple times before -- I should have explicitly stated the need for a VISA. I mistakenly thought it was obvious that people outside the US would ask about it considering the contract states that you must guarantee your ability to enter the US. It was my fault for not explicitly stating that they needed a VISA. I'm not going to post more about the issue since everyone has said their piece. GL! Dood, no offense, first of all I know what putting hours into organising something takes (especially of these proportions), so respect for that and I hope it all comes to fruition so we can all enjoy it. On the other hand, I can't wrap my head about your post in any way. Would you apply for a job, be accepted, only to tell the employer a week later " oh btw l-o-l, I can't really work cos I'm injured"? What sense would it make for him to apply if he wouldn't be 100% sure he could play. Especially don't judge him from a video that's been described as "for-presentational-purposes-only" (not certain on this, I admit, but this is my understanding). He tried to spice things up for hype and all, and what good did that do to him in the end? Second point, yeah, Romania 15 years ago is a moderate risk country, today - no, not really. And even if there would be 'issues', if you actually *want* to invite a skilled player, why not clear things up with him, give him a week to solve his issues and draw the line after. Of course you're not expected to talk to every player, but if it actually represents your desire to have a diverse, best-of-the-best player pool, why would you not take the effort of clearing things up with the 9-10 players that might have issues? Again, I respect what you're doing and moreso, I understand that this discussion is pointless because there is no coming back from the announcement (obviously). Still, I think it would be respectful to some players if the "NASL comittee" admitted that some procedural mistakes were made and people that should have been in were unfairly left out. At least that's my view on this, so that's why I'm posting. Roughly 50% of the jobs i have applied to i do not really have the required qulifications for. Some of the applications to NASL quite honestly obviously do not have the qualifications either (meaning results/skill). Saying "he applied, therefore he obviously is good enogh to play" is just wrong. Fact: Both DeMuslim and NightEnd are "risk" players from NASL's perspective. You might argue that thier skill is high enough to be in NASL and even Xercis are not disagreeing with that. But they are also risky, they should have realised this themself (DeMuslim has pulled out of tournaments recently, Nightend has apparently been denied entry by blizzard in the past) and made clear in thier application (either video or mail) that whatever past problems there have been is now under control. If i was bus driver with a know public history of alcoholism i would make damn sure to mention that it is no longer a problem and provide whatever evidence i can of that if i applied to a new job. If i was Hockey player with an injury that has prevented me from playing recently i would provide whatever proof i could of it being healed when applying to a new team. Proof of concept: Brat'OK has had troubles with visas in the past, therefore for this tournament he made sure to provide proof of a visa. Peter "Foppa" Forsberg, NHL hockey player, has made more comebacks than i can count and his bad foot has stopped him every time. He was able to make new comebacks because he was able to convince the teams that it was better each time and he was worth the risk. You think any team would have accepted him if he called them from the hospital starting the application with "well my foot just crashed again so i just had surgery"... I disagree with any big mistakes having been made, the only mistake is that when asking players to provide proof of them being able to attend a US finals not specifying that this included being able to travel to US. But really, how is that not a given? You judge players based on thier applications and results, personal interviews was never on the table and was probably not possible when selecting 50 players. I have been involved in sorting out job applications and job interviews and it takes an insane amount of time to plan and do.
First of all, your whole post is built (consciously or not) around the idea that NASL doesn't care who they invite, they're an employer and if it's Grandmaster players or Platinum players doing the job, couldn't matter less to them. Far from true. Big names need a competition as NASL as NASL needs big names to help promoting their own name. Let's be 100% clear about this, I suggest you read this paragraph twice, because again - your whole post seems to be missing this point.
On to the post - I suppose we're not discussing their 'skill level', obviously this argument is based on the idea that they're more accomplished than a handful of players in there.
About DeMusliM - what's there to say. You write on the assumption that DeMusliM is in fact mentally incapable of doing simple logical processes, i.e, he's signing up for a tournament for which he's unsure he can play for. Sure, it's a possibility, makes no sense to me and I highly doubt that's the case, but whatever. Your opinion, right?
About NightEnd - you mix up things completely - the Blizzard thing was a law-related (well, on paper, anyway) happening that had nothing to do with this. It was just mentioned here after the decision was made. The whole discussion here was "We don't ask him if he has a visa, we just assume he can't get one".
Generally, your main post's idea isn't necessarily wrong. NASL wants to stay away from risk players. What I was trying to say is that not only the is "risk factor" in these cases completely miscalculated, but also, for a couple of players who are severely more accomplished than a handful of your other invites, it's worth going the extra mile of trying to sort 'issues' out.
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On March 31 2011 17:12 Xeris wrote:What are we supposed to think when: DeMusliM has withdrawn from every major tournament over the past few months due to his injury, hasn't competed in anything or been active at all, has never come out and publicly stated "hey guys I'll be back playing in a week," then makes an application video where he's standing in front of a hospital wearing a cast and the first thing he says is "I had another accident with my hand." Do you think we're supposed to talk to every single player and make sure they can play? Why does DeMusliM need special treatment that we have to go specifically talk to him and see how his hand is doing and if he's able to play? No offense, but this is simply an unrealistic expectation. Take your post and apply this to a job opening. If you're applying to a job, are you just going to sit back and wait for your employer to come to you, or are you going to be proactive and make sure you do everything in your power to show your employer that you deserve the job? We didn't feel that DeMusliM would be a good choice for our league due to his injury keeping him out of commission basically since December. As for NightEnd -- once again: Romania is a "high risk" country, as are Russia, Ukraine, and Poland (just because Romania is in the EU doesn't mean they have a VISA waiver program... which they don't, which makes it automatically more difficult to get a VISA to the US). We didn't want to have multiple "high risk" players in the league due to obvious reasons. What if more than 1 of them qualifies for the finals, can't get a VISA, and don't show up? That ruins our live event completely. White-Ra has demonstrated an ability to come to the US, BRAT_OK showed us his VISA, as did Strelok. So we were really left with two players (MaNa and NightEnd) from "high risk" countries. We only wanted to select 1; we chose MaNa. As I said multiple times before -- I should have explicitly stated the need for a VISA. I mistakenly thought it was obvious that people outside the US would ask about it considering the contract states that you must guarantee your ability to enter the US. It was my fault for not explicitly stating that they needed a VISA. I'm not going to post more about the issue since everyone has said their piece. GL!
romania isnt in the EU its same like ukraine so i full understand nightend if he not showed visa
i am surprised brat_ok got a visa cause he could so often not go to tournaments cause of missing visa
polans as EU coutnry thin kis the way better choose
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I think people have complained enough. Let's enjoy the tournaments, and just like the GSL our favourite players will get in sooner or later if they deserve to be in it.
Time to support NASL+e-sports.
Having said that, it would be nice if they came out with some more tournament information given how close it is to starting.
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On March 31 2011 19:09 DND_Enkil wrote:
Nightend has apparently been denied entry by blizzard in the past) and made clear in thier application (either video or mail) that whatever past problems there have been is now under control.
The problem with Blizzard was that Nightend won a prize of an all expenses paid trip to Germany to play in the regional finals. What happened when he went through the process of claiming and they realized he was Romanian they said Romanians weren't allowed to enter the competition. No such rule exists for SC2 (its still debatable as to it ever existing) and even if it did its irrelevant since Blizzard isnt deciding the roster for this competition or paying for the flight or taking visa applications.
Undead was really suffering at the time Nightend appeared and was a shining light for undead with some amazing play and we were denied an undead in the regional finals. Ironically the way NASL is being done keeping some racial representation he would have walked in.
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On March 31 2011 20:01 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 17:12 Xeris wrote:On March 31 2011 15:14 SiguR wrote:
SiguR's post
What are we supposed to think when: DeMusliM has withdrawn from every major tournament over the past few months due to his injury, hasn't competed in anything or been active at all, has never come out and publicly stated "hey guys I'll be back playing in a week," then makes an application video where he's standing in front of a hospital wearing a cast and the first thing he says is "I had another accident with my hand." Do you think we're supposed to talk to every single player and make sure they can play? Why does DeMusliM need special treatment that we have to go specifically talk to him and see how his hand is doing and if he's able to play? No offense, but this is simply an unrealistic expectation. Take your post and apply this to a job opening. If you're applying to a job, are you just going to sit back and wait for your employer to come to you, or are you going to be proactive and make sure you do everything in your power to show your employer that you deserve the job? We didn't feel that DeMusliM would be a good choice for our league due to his injury keeping him out of commission basically since December. As for NightEnd -- once again: Romania is a "high risk" country, as are Russia, Ukraine, and Poland (just because Romania is in the EU doesn't mean they have a VISA waiver program... which they don't, which makes it automatically more difficult to get a VISA to the US). We didn't want to have multiple "high risk" players in the league due to obvious reasons. What if more than 1 of them qualifies for the finals, can't get a VISA, and don't show up? That ruins our live event completely. White-Ra has demonstrated an ability to come to the US, BRAT_OK showed us his VISA, as did Strelok. So we were really left with two players (MaNa and NightEnd) from "high risk" countries. We only wanted to select 1; we chose MaNa. As I said multiple times before -- I should have explicitly stated the need for a VISA. I mistakenly thought it was obvious that people outside the US would ask about it considering the contract states that you must guarantee your ability to enter the US. It was my fault for not explicitly stating that they needed a VISA. I'm not going to post more about the issue since everyone has said their piece. GL! romania isnt in the EU its same like ukraine so i full understand nightend if he not showed visa i am surprised brat_ok got a visa cause he could so often not go to tournaments cause of missing visa polans as EU coutnry thin kis the way better choose It is in the EU Romania has been a European Union country since 2007 http://europa.eu/abc/european_countries/index_en.htm
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On March 31 2011 19:52 n0ise wrote:Show nested quote +On March 31 2011 19:09 DND_Enkil wrote:On March 31 2011 17:25 n0ise wrote:On March 31 2011 17:12 Xeris wrote:On March 31 2011 15:14 SiguR wrote:
SiguR's post
What are we supposed to think when: DeMusliM has withdrawn from every major tournament over the past few months due to his injury, hasn't competed in anything or been active at all, has never come out and publicly stated "hey guys I'll be back playing in a week," then makes an application video where he's standing in front of a hospital wearing a cast and the first thing he says is "I had another accident with my hand." Do you think we're supposed to talk to every single player and make sure they can play? Why does DeMusliM need special treatment that we have to go specifically talk to him and see how his hand is doing and if he's able to play? No offense, but this is simply an unrealistic expectation. Take your post and apply this to a job opening. If you're applying to a job, are you just going to sit back and wait for your employer to come to you, or are you going to be proactive and make sure you do everything in your power to show your employer that you deserve the job? We didn't feel that DeMusliM would be a good choice for our league due to his injury keeping him out of commission basically since December. As for NightEnd -- once again: Romania is a "high risk" country, as are Russia, Ukraine, and Poland (just because Romania is in the EU doesn't mean they have a VISA waiver program... which they don't, which makes it automatically more difficult to get a VISA to the US). We didn't want to have multiple "high risk" players in the league due to obvious reasons. What if more than 1 of them qualifies for the finals, can't get a VISA, and don't show up? That ruins our live event completely. White-Ra has demonstrated an ability to come to the US, BRAT_OK showed us his VISA, as did Strelok. So we were really left with two players (MaNa and NightEnd) from "high risk" countries. We only wanted to select 1; we chose MaNa. As I said multiple times before -- I should have explicitly stated the need for a VISA. I mistakenly thought it was obvious that people outside the US would ask about it considering the contract states that you must guarantee your ability to enter the US. It was my fault for not explicitly stating that they needed a VISA. I'm not going to post more about the issue since everyone has said their piece. GL! Dood, no offense, first of all I know what putting hours into organising something takes (especially of these proportions), so respect for that and I hope it all comes to fruition so we can all enjoy it. On the other hand, I can't wrap my head about your post in any way. Would you apply for a job, be accepted, only to tell the employer a week later " oh btw l-o-l, I can't really work cos I'm injured"? What sense would it make for him to apply if he wouldn't be 100% sure he could play. Especially don't judge him from a video that's been described as "for-presentational-purposes-only" (not certain on this, I admit, but this is my understanding). He tried to spice things up for hype and all, and what good did that do to him in the end? Second point, yeah, Romania 15 years ago is a moderate risk country, today - no, not really. And even if there would be 'issues', if you actually *want* to invite a skilled player, why not clear things up with him, give him a week to solve his issues and draw the line after. Of course you're not expected to talk to every player, but if it actually represents your desire to have a diverse, best-of-the-best player pool, why would you not take the effort of clearing things up with the 9-10 players that might have issues? Again, I respect what you're doing and moreso, I understand that this discussion is pointless because there is no coming back from the announcement (obviously). Still, I think it would be respectful to some players if the "NASL comittee" admitted that some procedural mistakes were made and people that should have been in were unfairly left out. At least that's my view on this, so that's why I'm posting. Roughly 50% of the jobs i have applied to i do not really have the required qulifications for. Some of the applications to NASL quite honestly obviously do not have the qualifications either (meaning results/skill). Saying "he applied, therefore he obviously is good enogh to play" is just wrong. Fact: Both DeMuslim and NightEnd are "risk" players from NASL's perspective. You might argue that thier skill is high enough to be in NASL and even Xercis are not disagreeing with that. But they are also risky, they should have realised this themself (DeMuslim has pulled out of tournaments recently, Nightend has apparently been denied entry by blizzard in the past) and made clear in thier application (either video or mail) that whatever past problems there have been is now under control. If i was bus driver with a know public history of alcoholism i would make damn sure to mention that it is no longer a problem and provide whatever evidence i can of that if i applied to a new job. If i was Hockey player with an injury that has prevented me from playing recently i would provide whatever proof i could of it being healed when applying to a new team. Proof of concept: Brat'OK has had troubles with visas in the past, therefore for this tournament he made sure to provide proof of a visa. Peter "Foppa" Forsberg, NHL hockey player, has made more comebacks than i can count and his bad foot has stopped him every time. He was able to make new comebacks because he was able to convince the teams that it was better each time and he was worth the risk. You think any team would have accepted him if he called them from the hospital starting the application with "well my foot just crashed again so i just had surgery"... I disagree with any big mistakes having been made, the only mistake is that when asking players to provide proof of them being able to attend a US finals not specifying that this included being able to travel to US. But really, how is that not a given? You judge players based on thier applications and results, personal interviews was never on the table and was probably not possible when selecting 50 players. I have been involved in sorting out job applications and job interviews and it takes an insane amount of time to plan and do.
Nice reply =)
I was not read up on Nightends previous troubles with Blizzard, but visa is a common problem for a lot of players in the past.
First of all, your whole post is built (consciously or not) around the idea that NASL doesn't care who they invite, they're an employer and if it's Grandmaster players or Platinum players doing the job, couldn't matter less to them. Far from true. Big names need a competition as NASL as NASL needs big names to help promoting their own name. Let's be 100% clear about this, I suggest you read this paragraph twice, because again - your whole post seems to be missing this point.
Of course NASL needs big players, i understand this, i do not however think the tournament stands or falls with one or two players. While missing theese two players is certainly a drawback, the drawback from having them in and A) Not being able to play (making the tournament look like amatuer tour 2011) or B) Getting rofl-stomped because of an injury would be bigger in my opinion, and i think it was shared by the organisers (since they where not accepted).
About DeMusliM - what's there to say. You write on the assumption that DeMusliM is in fact mentally incapable of doing simple logical processes, i.e, he's signing up for a tournament for which he's unsure he can play for. Sure, it's a possibility, makes no sense to me and I highly doubt that's the case, but whatever. Your opinion, right?
But it does not matter if he thinks he can play or not, he needs to convince the organisers of this. Same as any application, you need to sell yourself and convince whoever you are sending it to that you are the right person for whatever you are applying to. I am of the opinion that an application in itself does not mean that the person is fit for the position.
About NightEnd - you mix up things completely - the Blizzard thing was a law-related (well, on paper, anyway) happening that had nothing to do with this. It was just mentioned here after the decision was made. The whole discussion here was "We don't ask him if he has a visa, we just assume he can't get one".
Sorry for mixing things up regarding Blizzard, my bad. Saw it mentioned earlier in this thread and misunderstood. And they did not say they assumed he could not get one, they said that there was to big a risk of him being denied a visa for them to be comfortable including him among the 50 players selected.
Some players have had troubles with getting visas for tournaments in the past so i do not understand how anyone can fault NASL for this concern? Is it unfortunate? Extremely so, but it is not NASL's fault.
Generally, your main post's idea isn't necessarily wrong. NASL wants to stay away from risk players. What I was trying to say is that not only the is "risk factor" in these cases completely miscalculated, but also, for a couple of players who are severely more accomplished than a handful of your other invites, it's worth going the extra mile of trying to sort 'issues' out.
First of all i need to stress i am only a fan, i am not involved in NASL in any way i just disagree with all the people citisising them for this. You, and others, think the risk factor is miscalculated, however you and others are not the people putting 400k in prize money plus whatever extra costs there is on the line. The organisers are, and they decided to err on the side of caution in the first season of one of the biggest leagues ever launched. I can not fault them for this...
It is easy to demand that others go the extra mile when you have no idea how much they have to do and what kind of time tables they are working with. I cant see this discussion going anywhere from here, i think i just look at it more from an organisers perspective than from a players perspective since i am not a pro level player myself.
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On March 31 2011 20:01 CoR wrote:
romania isnt in the EU its same like ukraine so i full understand nightend if he not showed visa
i am surprised brat_ok got a visa cause he could so often not go to tournaments cause of missing visa
polans as EU coutnry thin kis the way better choose
man you really are a shame for every european citizen
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On March 31 2011 20:46 DND_Enkil wrote:
Nice reply =)
I was not read up on Nightends previous troubles with Blizzard, but visa is a common problem for a lot of players in the past.
Woudnt expect you to unless you were into WC3 . As far as I'm aware its only been players from the Ukraine and Russia and unbelievably some players from canada in recent FPS tournies who forgot they needed 6 months on their passports that have missed tournaments in my memory. It can be a problem but being a resident of a country with visa waivers is no guarantee as totalbiscuit will tell you he was turned away at customs/immigration while going to Blizzcon and he has an American wife.
You cant legislate for everything a player could get ill or get pushed over in at a nightclub again.
Welcome, and I do know how hard it is to organise even minor tournaments. Its a thankless job and they have been very open about their decisions. I will be watching and looking forward to it. The only reason why we comment here is because we are passionate for e-sports. I've moved on now but just want to set the record straight.
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Xeris " We didn't feel that DeMusliM would be a good choice for our league due to his injury keeping him out of commission basically since December. "
lol be carefull what you write when you are representing a league, you're making yourself look beyond ridiculous now since Demuslim Actually got top 3 at Intel Extreme Masters Continental Finals in Europe, which was played from 19 to 24 January. But hey )))))) anyways I do wanna mention I'm very happy with NASL and its awesome we get another massive StarCraft League, mad props to everyone who is involved, but if mistakes are made its not wrong to point them out so they wont happen again.
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EPT
